View Full Version : Machina is better than Adore


ilikeplanets
10-05-2010, 02:01 PM
B0lly's got some real attitude in Machina and the songs aren't so melodramatic and such. Granted, songs on Adore contain some gorgeous lyrics but Machina's tunes can make me happy! The way BC's voice is mixed on Machina kicks ass, too. I love the song Wound....but I can't decide if it is about Jesus or a person. I hope it's not about Jesus...:dammit::dammit:

dean_r_koontz
10-05-2010, 02:03 PM
i disagree. the songwriting is much worse than on adore.

pepper666
10-05-2010, 02:05 PM
Adore is definately on the top of Billy´s songwriting.. love every tune he wrote there, and also most of the outtakes are stunning.. to feel happy I prefer Zwan

ilikeplanets
10-05-2010, 02:21 PM
Something about Zwan annoys the shit out of me....Machina still has an edge to it while Zwan is like a bunch of fried neo-hippies dancing around the streets throwing apple seeds in the air..

wHATcOLOR
10-05-2010, 02:24 PM
adore

dean_r_koontz
10-05-2010, 02:44 PM
none of the records are anything special though.

Caine Walker
10-05-2010, 03:00 PM
adore is better

Ihaguitar
10-05-2010, 04:13 PM
Adore is better. Machina is too bombastic.

slunken
10-05-2010, 04:37 PM
I agree that the cool thing about machina is its attitude

Corganist
10-05-2010, 05:36 PM
Machina is better. It doesn't have a song on it that's an outright stinker, and Adore has at least a couple.

redbreegull
10-05-2010, 05:43 PM
Machina is better. It doesn't have a song on it that's an outright stinker, and Adore has at least a couple.

Taste is obviously subjective, but I absolutely do not understand this

dean_r_koontz
10-05-2010, 05:45 PM
the guy is just a fan troll.

soniclovenoize
10-05-2010, 05:51 PM
B0lly's got some real attitude in Machina and the songs aren't so melodramatic and such. Granted, songs on Adore contain some gorgeous lyrics but Machina's tunes can make me happy! The way BC's voice is mixed on Machina kicks ass, too. I love the song Wound....but I can't decide if it is about Jesus or a person. I hope it's not about Jesus...:dammit::dammit:

Wound is about Glass singing to the Voice on The Radio.

Corganist
10-05-2010, 06:04 PM
Taste is obviously subjective, but I absolutely do not understand this

Tale of Dusty, Shame, and Annie Dog are by far the worst three consecutive album tracks in the entire SP...scratch that...Corgan catalog (and yes, I'm including TGBK in that).

Ihaguitar
10-05-2010, 06:10 PM
Tale of Dusty, Shame, and Annie Dog are by far the worst three consecutive album tracks in the entire SP...scratch that...Corgan catalog (and yes, I'm including TGBK in that).

Incorrect. But no surprise there.

dean_r_koontz
10-05-2010, 06:12 PM
don't feed the troll.

ilikeplanets
10-05-2010, 06:14 PM
good thread idea

Shallowed
10-05-2010, 06:17 PM
good thread idea

Not to be one to suck your own tits or anything.

soniclovenoize
10-05-2010, 06:44 PM
Not to be one to suck your own tits or anything.

Post the pics of this please thank you.

Corganist
10-05-2010, 06:46 PM
Incorrect. But no surprise there.

Nope. It's correct, but tastes can differ I suppose. I just don't understand the hard-on people here have for Adore. The record failed in about every way that it can fail, especially now that we've had 12 years to look back at it and see its (lack of) impact and influence and just how wildly Billy missed the mark. It's uneven, overlong, and has a couple of the worst songs Billy's ever released on it.

Not to say I don't like the record or that I don't think there's really good stuff on there. I just think that it represents what is by far the weakest period of songwriting in Billy's entire career.

redbreegull
10-05-2010, 06:51 PM
corganist you make me sick

killtrocity
10-05-2010, 07:03 PM
Adore is the pinnacle of his lyrical prowess . . . the problem most of you meatheads have with Adore is that it's not masculine enough, unlike Machina which totally overdoes the contrived masculine/hardrock thing to the point of insincerity, which I realize is ultimately the point but it still strikes me as annoying and coupled with awful production the whole thing is just irrelevant

dean_r_koontz
10-05-2010, 07:05 PM
he's just a troll. there's no other plausible reason to come to this place and consistantly air opinions that he knows are deeply unpopular.

Corganist
10-05-2010, 07:29 PM
he's just a troll. there's no other plausible reason to come to this place and consistantly air opinions that he knows are deeply unpopular.

I highly doubt my opinion is "deeply unpopular" anywhere but here. There's a reason that the fanbase started evaporating upon Adore's release. And I don't see why I should have to censor myself just because people here are inordinately in love with it.

It's amazing that I can be considered an unflinching Corgan apologist one day because I like something, and then get called out the second I say I don't like something.

D.
10-05-2010, 07:32 PM
i'm using ther month of october to go through and listen to all my pumpkins material.

withat worthless disclaimer, it's pretty obvious adore > machina BUT machina 2 > adore

Catherine Wheel
10-05-2010, 07:34 PM
Machina has some horrible songs but Adore? There aren't any really awful songs in the bunch. There are some tracks that I find to be just average and that I want to skip like Dusty and Pistol Pete or Ava Adore.

Catherine Wheel
10-05-2010, 07:35 PM
Yeah I think Machina 2 wtih a little editing and better production could be almost as good as Adore

dean_r_koontz
10-05-2010, 07:36 PM
I highly doubt my opinion is "deeply unpopular" anywhere but here.

And yet you continue to post the same opinions here that you know are deeply unpopular here.. It's like going to a Ricky Gervais forum and saying that everything he's done since the office has sucked (which i did). It's just simple trolling.

Eulogy
10-05-2010, 07:36 PM
Tale of Dusty, Shame, and Annie Dog are by far the worst three consecutive album tracks in the entire SP...scratch that...Corgan catalog (and yes, I'm including TGBK in that).

jesus christ

samuel redman
10-05-2010, 07:40 PM
seriously...

Corganist
10-05-2010, 08:01 PM
And yet you continue to post the same opinions here that you know are deeply unpopular here.. It's like going to a Ricky Gervais forum and saying that everything he's done since the office has sucked (which i did). It's just simple trolling.

It would be if I didn't really like...oh...just about everything else Billy Corgan has done. No one else here has to love everything or hate everything Billy has done, so why can't I get one album that I don't think is up to snuff with the rest?

It really has nothing to do with what anyone here thinks about it. I've been underwhelmed with Adore since 1998. I like it. I listen to it from time to time and enjoy it. But quite honestly, I'd really rather listen to what we have of TGBK so far if given the choice. And between Adore and Machina, it's a no brainer for me. Adore doesn't have anything nearly as good as I of the Mourning on it. And Machina has nothing nearly as bad as the Tale of Dusty/Shame/Annie Dog unholy trinity on it.

Catherine Wheel
10-05-2010, 08:14 PM
The singles SIYL and IOTM are easily the two best songs on Machina which is odd because for the most part I don't like the singles the original group released. SP always seemed to have songs on their albums that were way better than the singles.

Eulogy
10-05-2010, 08:17 PM
It would be if I didn't really like...oh...just about everything else Billy Corgan has done. No one else here has to love everything or hate everything Billy has done, so why can't I get one album that I don't think is up to snuff with the rest?

It really has nothing to do with what anyone here thinks about it. I've been underwhelmed with Adore since 1998. I like it. I listen to it from time to time and enjoy it. But quite honestly, I'd really rather listen to what we have of TGBK so far if given the choice. And between Adore and Machina, it's a no brainer for me. Adore doesn't have anything nearly as good as I of the Mourning on it. And Machina has nothing nearly as bad as the Tale of Dusty/Shame/Annie Dog unholy trinity on it.

I literally laughed at the bolded. I can maybe see Machina because I like it a lot, but this new shit?

And For Martha, B! TN, To Sheila, Ava Adore, and Pug (at the very least) are as good as anything on Machina (which once again, I love).

yoshinobu's revenge
10-05-2010, 08:48 PM
Shame is an incredible song. Annie-Dog does kinda suck though.

slunken
10-05-2010, 08:50 PM
Piping in for Annie-Dog love.

duovamp
10-05-2010, 08:56 PM
Love Annie-Dog.

samuel redman
10-05-2010, 09:36 PM
those songs are too good for Corganist to enjoy.

ilikeplanets
10-05-2010, 09:36 PM
Not Annie-Dog, dude....Shame is also rather long-winded. I like Dusty, though.

duovamp
10-05-2010, 09:45 PM
I don't like Shame or that song with the long-winded title involving Dusty and Pistol Pete.

Corganist
10-05-2010, 09:55 PM
To be fair, I did enjoy the 2007 version of Shame. So the song is not completely so worthless that 9 years of tinkering can't fix it.

paranoid
10-05-2010, 10:10 PM
todapp and shame are easily in the top 5 of my favorite adore songs. I'm also a big fan of annie-dog.

since we are all sharing subjective opinions as though they are fact:

the crying tree of mercury is absolutely the worst sp1 song. had he recorded the version that was played on the early 2000 tour, it would have been golden. but the version on record is embarrassing. overall it's a horribly whiny record and i can't take it all in one sitting, adore i could listen to on end over and over again.

adore top 5: to sheila, shame, blank page, todapp, for martha.

machina top 5: siyl, iotm, this time, teg, wel.

machina 2 trumps machina 1, and is even with adore in my book.

ilikeplanets
10-05-2010, 10:15 PM
Oh god Machina II is awful! "Here's the same 6 songs stretched to make a 25 songs album...and you can't even own a copy!"

jammin
10-05-2010, 10:58 PM
i like every song on adore. it's one of the few albums that has stood the test of time for me. it's a real bottom heavy album, too. the last five songs > anything on machina.

i like almost every song on machina, but i don't really listen to it. it had better music vids than adore.

stumpycat
10-06-2010, 12:30 AM
On both albums I must admit I find myself enjoying about half the songs, while the other half don't do all that much for me. Mind you, even the songs I didn't care for on the albums were actually pretty cool when I heard them in concert in the context of their live arrangements. The Sacred and Profane tour was actually really balls to the walls rocking.

rudi
10-06-2010, 01:00 AM
Love Adore...

But Machina I > Adore > Machina II.

ilikeplanets
10-06-2010, 01:12 AM
I agree with rudi :D

sniffingchimp
10-06-2010, 04:42 AM
I just find it hard to take your point seriously Corganist – you’d honestly rate what we have from Teargarden so far over Adore? I don’t believe you’re trolling here, just airing your view – which I think is even more worrying.

AveryLoren
10-06-2010, 06:07 AM
What gets on my nerves the most about corgans post MCIS work is that if he had only done a few things different they would have been every bit the masterpieces SD & MCIS are I really wish adore would have been made with Jimmy and more along the lines of Eye and The End is the Beginning is the End

RenewRevive
10-06-2010, 07:38 AM
I highly doubt my opinion is "deeply unpopular" anywhere but here. There's a reason that the fanbase started evaporating upon Adore's release.

depends what you mean by fanbase. how many people bought SD or MCIS, played them a few times then forgot them? or bought them for two or three singles that they liked and maybe skip tracks? could these people seriously be considered SP fans? by contrast, with neither Adore or Machina attaining mainstream success the bulk of sales would be by actual fans of the band, probably with some spillover for Adore on the back of the band still being in the media spotlight at the time of release (plus Ava Adore getting more airplay than the Machina singles).

consider also that sales of Gish rocketed with the success of SD but plateaued at maybe a quarter (or less) of SD's sales in the US. which suggests that the actual fanbase (in the US) was probably a little over the 500k mark in 2000 (corresponding to Machina sales). all those other "fans" could be classified as casual and yeah, with the release of a blatantly non-commercial, non-rock album like Adore, they did evaporate.

As far as the "reunion" is concerned, Zeitgeist eventually sold around 500k in the US, which suggests the actual fanbase hasn't actually dropped off all that much over time, accounting for a general lessening of album sales since 2000 plus antipathy over James' non-inclusion.

RockLobster
10-06-2010, 07:57 AM
Tale of Dusty, Shame, and Annie Dog are by far the worst three consecutive album tracks in the entire SP...scratch that...Corgan catalog (and yes, I'm including TGBK in that).

i never get tired of telling you that you're fucking retarded.

soniclovenoize
10-06-2010, 09:14 AM
I've always felt that Pete -> Annie -> Shame and everything after it for that matter was the best part of Adore.

Corganist
10-06-2010, 12:31 PM
I've always felt that Pete -> Annie -> Shame and everything after it for that matter was the best part of Adore.

If those three songs were taken out, and instead it went straight from Pug to B!tNM, then it'd be a four star album instead of a three star. There is just no reason Adore should have been almost 80 minutes long. There's a really good sixty minute album hiding in there, but instead, we have a merely decent one rife with filler.

soniclovenoize
10-06-2010, 12:50 PM
Just take out the piece of shit that is Appels + Oranjes and the abortion that is 17. Bam, 14-song album.

I'm not gonna argue with you Corganist because it all comes down to taste: you don't like those three tracks? That's cool, I can dig that. But to me, Pete represents a step forward in Corgan's songwriting to true balladeer status, and I was VERY impressed with the song-construction and his successful ability to step out of his genre... I admit I didn't like Annie Dog at first, but the lyrics are some of the best Corgan's ever written, and the totally stripped-down, naked performance and even hoarse vocals is reminiscent of Plastic Ono Band, one of the most uncontrived and real albums I've ever heard—something that, when coupled with those amazing lyrics, creates this song that somehow is one of the most honest songs he’s written... And Shame? People have been complaining how terrible that (and Tear) was since it came out, but I get it. Everything that Corgan has talked about, what the essence of the song is and when they recorded it and how, it makes sense to me and totally communicates to me.

If you took out those three songs, to me you would be taking the spirit of what the album was and what Adore was trying to achieve, just like if you took Ruby / Stumbleine / XYU out of MCIS.

Dogfighter28
10-06-2010, 12:53 PM
Adore >>>>> Machina >>>>>>>>>>>> Machina 2

redbull
10-06-2010, 01:24 PM
Adore = Machina II >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Machina

arCHI
10-06-2010, 01:30 PM
Just take out the piece of shit that is Appels + Oranjes and the abortion that is 17. Bam, 14-song album.

I'm not gonna argue with you Corganist because it all comes down to taste: you don't like those three tracks? That's cool, I can dig that. But to me, Pete represents a step forward in Corgan's songwriting to true balladeer status, and I was VERY impressed with the song-construction and his successful ability to step out of his genre... I admit I didn't like Annie Dog at first, but the lyrics are some of the best Corgan's ever written, and the totally stripped-down, naked performance and even hoarse vocals is reminiscent of Plastic Ono Band, one of the most uncontrived and real albums I've ever heard—something that, when coupled with those amazing lyrics, creates this song that somehow is one of the most honest songs he’s written... And Shame? People have been complaining how terrible that (and Tear) was since it came out, but I get it. Everything that Corgan has talked about, what the essence of the song is and when they recorded it and how, it makes sense to me and totally communicates to me.

If you took out those three songs, to me you would be taking the spirit of what the album was and what Adore was trying to achieve, just like if you took Ruby / Stumbleine / XYU out of MCIS.

so spot on.

now machina on the other hand could benefit from some rearranging and editing, along with swapping in some MII tracks. then the adore machina debate would be a lot closer in my mind.

Monet LSD
10-06-2010, 02:38 PM
There's a really good sixty minute album hiding in there, but instead, we have a merely decent one rife with filler.

You're rife with filler.

redbreegull
10-06-2010, 02:42 PM
filler = shit?

soniclovenoize
10-06-2010, 04:38 PM
so spot on.

now machina on the other hand could benefit from some rearranging and editing, along with swapping in some MII tracks. then the adore machina debate would be a lot closer in my mind.

I just made my own single-disc mix of the best songs from MI and MII, arranged to follow the gay concept or whatever. I just listen to that instead of either.

Eulogy
10-06-2010, 06:34 PM
i'm still baffled at how any three-track stretch on Adore could possibly be worse than any three-track stretch on the abortion that is TEARGARDEN BY KALEIDYSCOPE.

paranoid
10-06-2010, 06:43 PM
why is it so hard for people to understand that corganist has his own unique opinion? And I use unique because that's the only way corganist feels he can stand out. see, he has to go against the popular opinion so he can feel like he stands out, thereby tricking himself into believing that he is smarter than everyone else when in fact he's made himself look like a tard. typical republican.

had todapp and shame come out today, he'd be defending it up and down, that is if phoria'd be hating on it.

doubt it though. the majority of people here can think for themselves.

vbshlofbvgos
10-06-2010, 06:43 PM
B!tNM
thats too much effort for an abbreviation

soniclovenoize
10-06-2010, 07:13 PM
had todapp and shame come out today, he'd be defending it up and down, that is if phoria'd be hating on it


todapp is the greatest dapp I've ever known.

SpFission
10-06-2010, 08:09 PM
Machina sucks

jammin
10-06-2010, 08:20 PM
i really wanna listen to some adore right now.

CrabbMan
10-06-2010, 09:59 PM
todapp is the greatest dapp I've ever known.

:rofl:


Over time, I've come to like Adore less than I did in the first few years it came out, whereas I've come to like Machina more. But I still like Adore more.

paranoid
10-06-2010, 10:30 PM
machina is an absolute pile of shit. jesus i can't believe this is even a thread.

stumpycat
10-06-2010, 10:58 PM
In my mind, Adore is the more solid album and, er...artistic statement. The thing is, I can't really rock out to it (which I can with some of Machina) but I can respect and appreciate where it's coming from artistically moreso than Machina. Adore is altogether a different animal than most of the Pumpkins' work, and even if after all these years I'm still not quite sure what to make of it.

Spira|_
10-07-2010, 05:10 AM
I'm not stuck in the past!









...I love both equal. Although if I had to choose one and only one to listen for rest of my life it would be Machina.

Starla
10-07-2010, 05:18 AM
Nope. It's correct, but tastes can differ I suppose. I just don't understand the hard-on people here have for Adore. The record failed in about every way that it can fail, .

It's a fan album. It's art. It's also better than machina.

Starla
10-07-2010, 05:20 AM
This song beats any song on machina.



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Spira|_
10-07-2010, 05:22 AM
Annie-dog and Shame versions played at 2007/05/22 on Grand Rex, Paris are AMAZING!

Starla
10-07-2010, 05:22 AM
I've been underwhelmed with Adore since 1998. I like it. I listen to it from time to time and enjoy it. But quite honestly, I'd really rather listen to what we have of TGBK so far if given the choice. And between Adore and Machina, it's a no brainer for me. Adore doesn't have anything nearly as good as I of the Mourning on it.

lol

Corganist
10-07-2010, 08:16 AM
why is it so hard for people to understand that corganist has his own unique opinion? And I use unique because that's the only way corganist feels he can stand out. see, he has to go against the popular opinion so he can feel like he stands out, thereby tricking himself into believing that he is smarter than everyone else when in fact he's made himself look like a tard. typical republican.

had todapp and shame come out today, he'd be defending it up and down, that is if phoria'd be hating on it.

doubt it though. the majority of people here can think for themselves.

I don't think that being underwhelmed by the album that pretty much singlehandedly knocked down the commercial and critical success of the band (which they never recovered from) is really that unique of opinion.

And if Shame came out today, you all know good and well that it would get roasted here. The only reason that song has gotten a pass by so many here is because of the way it was recorded, and people hold it up as some kind of beacon of Billy/James/D'arcy studio chemistry. Without that backstory, it's a boring song, it's badly arranged, and it contains THE most cringe inducing vocal choices in the entire SP catalog. If he did that "Sh-sh-sh-sh-sh" thing today, I can't imagine what you guys would do.

SpFission
10-07-2010, 08:25 AM
I'd rather listen to TGBK than Machina, but Adore is a classic and can't really be compared to either.

paranoid
10-07-2010, 10:34 AM
I don't think that being underwhelmed by the album that pretty much singlehandedly knocked down the commercial and critical success of the band (which they never recovered from) is really that unique of opinion.

And if Shame came out today, you all know good and well that it would get roasted here. The only reason that song has gotten a pass by so many here is because of the way it was recorded, and people hold it up as some kind of beacon of Billy/James/D'arcy studio chemistry. Without that backstory, it's a boring song, it's badly arranged, and it contains THE most cringe inducing vocal choices in the entire SP catalog. If he did that "Sh-sh-sh-sh-sh" thing today, I can't imagine what you guys would do.

oh ok, so that confirms that you just don't get it. just shut up already then.

samuel redman
10-07-2010, 10:38 AM
i just noticed Corganists posts for the first time really.

there's really nothing that gets past him

Eulogy
10-07-2010, 10:58 AM
And if Shame came out today, you all know good and well that it would get roasted here. The only reason that song has gotten a pass by so many here is because of the way it was recorded, and people hold it up as some kind of beacon of Billy/James/D'arcy studio chemistry. Without that backstory, it's a boring song, it's badly arranged, and it contains THE most cringe inducing vocal choices in the entire SP catalog. If he did that "Sh-sh-sh-sh-sh" thing today, I can't imagine what you guys would do.

Why do you always say shit like this? It is absolutely, unequivocally false. I like how you try to defend yourself saying "HEY MAN TASTES VARY" but then try to accuse everyone here of not liking TBK because it's new and not because it's fucking embarrassingly terrible.

If you want to listen to Widow Wake My Mind instead of Shame, go right ahead. But god, that just indicates that you have horrendous taste.

Corganist
10-07-2010, 05:12 PM
Why do you always say shit like this? It is absolutely, unequivocally false. I like how you try to defend yourself saying "HEY MAN TASTES VARY" but then try to accuse everyone here of not liking TBK because it's new and not because it's fucking embarrassingly terrible.

Come on. You know good and well that it's not false. If Billy pulled that "Sh-sh-sh" crap in 2010, we'd never, EVER hear the end of it here. If Shame was a TFE track or a Zeitgeist track it'd be considered absolutely nothing special if it wasn't outright loathed.

And I don't recall ever accusing anyone of not liking TBK "because it's new." I've said several times that I don't care who likes what. To the extent that I do argue tastes on here, it's usually just me taking issue with people using hyperbolic phrases like "fucking embarrassingly terrible" to describe the new stuff while praising shit like Annie Dog and Shame.

And really, it's not like I'm talking about MCIS or SD here. Adore is not a sacred cow on anywhere near that level, and it's fucking ridiculous that people act like it's even close to it. It has been and will probably always be an album that people are split on. Same goes with Machina. It really shouldn't be controversial if someone doesn't like one or the other, because there are lots of people who are gonna agree no matter which way you go. This idea that there's some kind of consensus that Adore and all the songs on it are somehow unassailable is just completely made-up bullshit. For every person who thinks it's a classic, there's at least one other who thinks it was a huge misstep that Billy never recovered from.

If you want to listen to Widow Wake My Mind instead of Shame, go right ahead. But god, that just indicates that you have horrendous taste.

Whatever. Widow Wake My Mind is a MUCH better song than Shame, even if that isn't saying a whole hell of a lot for it. At least Widow is short.

arCHI
10-07-2010, 05:22 PM
I don't think that being underwhelmed by the album that pretty much singlehandedly knocked down the commercial and critical success of the band (which they never recovered from) is really that unique of opinion.

And if Shame came out today, you all know good and well that it would get roasted here. The only reason that song has gotten a pass by so many here is because of the way it was recorded, and people hold it up as some kind of beacon of Billy/James/D'arcy studio chemistry. Without that backstory, it's a boring song, it's badly arranged, and it contains THE most cringe inducing vocal choices in the entire SP catalog. If he did that "Sh-sh-sh-sh-sh" thing today, I can't imagine what you guys would do.

maybe the lyrical technique is lame, but the song has a great vibe. if TBK songs had a great vibe i would be more willing to let 'oohs' 'oh's slide. so, yes it does have to do with the chemistry of the musicians, but i thought that before the band broke up: it's just obviously true.

if there was chemistry with the new band they wouldn't be recording such shitty music. even if the music was shitty it might at least have some character.

Eulogy
10-07-2010, 07:55 PM
Come on. You know good and well that it's not false. If Billy pulled that "Sh-sh-sh" crap in 2010, we'd never, EVER hear the end of it here. If Shame was a TFE track or a Zeitgeist track it'd be considered absolutely nothing special if it wasn't outright loathed.

Bullshit. I can't even fathom Billy writing a song like Shame at this point in his career. There is a depth there that he hasn't reached since Adore came out.

And I don't recall ever accusing anyone of not liking TBK "because it's new." I've said several times that I don't care who likes what. To the extent that I do argue tastes on here, it's usually just me taking issue with people using hyperbolic phrases like "fucking embarrassingly terrible" to describe the new stuff while praising shit like Annie Dog and Shame.

But that's how it is. These new songs are total shit. Zeitgeist had some good songs (I'm still quite partial to TTW, Stellar, and Zeitgeist). TBK is all shit. Minus Freak which would have made a halfway decent Zeitgeist b-side.

And really, it's not like I'm talking about MCIS or SD here. Adore is not a sacred cow on anywhere near that level, and it's fucking ridiculous that people act like it's even close to it. It has been and will probably always be an album that people are split on. Same goes with Machina. It really shouldn't be controversial if someone doesn't like one or the other, because there are lots of people who are gonna agree no matter which way you go. This idea that there's some kind of consensus that Adore and all the songs on it are somehow unassailable is just completely made-up bullshit. For every person who thinks it's a classic, there's at least one other who thinks it was a huge misstep that Billy never recovered from.

It is about as close to fact as music taste can get that Adore is miles better than TBK.



Whatever. Widow Wake My Mind is a MUCH better song than Shame, even if that isn't saying a whole hell of a lot for it. At least Widow is short.

lol.

Eulogy
10-07-2010, 07:55 PM
it just seems like you like lazy, superficial songwriting.

Corganist
10-07-2010, 09:40 PM
Bullshit. I can't even fathom Billy writing a song like Shame at this point in his career. There is a depth there that he hasn't reached since Adore came out.
I just don't see it. The song is 7 minutes long and basically doesn't have any changes in dynamics or structure for the duration. It's just not very interesting, and the lyrics are really nothing more or less special than what he writes today. "Love is good and love is mine" and its variants aren't lines that are head and shoulders above what we're getting now.


But that's how it is. These new songs are total shit. Zeitgeist had some good songs (I'm still quite partial to TTW, Stellar, and Zeitgeist). TBK is all shit. Minus Freak which would have made a halfway decent Zeitgeist b-side.

It's fine to feel that way. But if I don't, then all I ask is that I be able to say so without being accused of being disingenuous about it. I don't mind being told my opinion is wrong, but I do take offense that people seem to think that deep down I really think Adore is some masterpiece and that I'm just taking a negative stance towards it to get a rise out of everyone. I'm not. I just genuinely think that it's a flawed record at best. I don't like a handful of songs, and I think it would have been better if some other songs were included (Cash Car Star, LMGTWTY) It doesn't mean I don't like it on the whole (It's a Corgan record after all), but I do find it the hardest one to really enjoy. And Billy's going to have to try really hard to make one I like less.


It is about as close to fact as music taste can get that Adore is miles better than TBK.
Be that as it may (or may not be), would you not agree that it's a much closer call between Machina and Adore?

ilikeplanets
10-07-2010, 09:44 PM
C'mon Eulogy...That's The Way and Shame over most of the Machina tracks?:erm:

Grox
10-07-2010, 09:51 PM
todapp is the greatest dapp I've ever known.

omg

SpFission
10-07-2010, 10:25 PM
C'mon Eulogy...That's The Way and Shame over most of the Machina tracks?:erm:

It's true. TTW and Shame >>> Almost all of Machina.

ilikeplanets
10-07-2010, 10:27 PM
Um...clearly untrue. Clearly.

ilikeplanets
10-07-2010, 10:29 PM
Why? Because Machina is GOOD and those tracks are for pussies.

Eulogy
10-08-2010, 06:55 AM
C'mon Eulogy...That's The Way and Shame over most of the Machina tracks?:erm:

jesus you cannot even read

Eulogy
10-08-2010, 06:55 AM
Be that as it may (or may not be), would you not agree that it's a much closer call between Machina and Adore?

Well sure. But that's because I love Machina and hate TBK.

sniffingchimp
10-08-2010, 07:11 AM
Whatever. Widow Wake My Mind is a MUCH better song than Shame, even if that isn't saying a whole hell of a lot for it. At least Widow is short.

Oh man, come on. James' guitar on Shame alone elevates it far, far above the piece of shit that is WWMM.

paranoid
10-08-2010, 09:11 AM
I think that the majority has ruled, in this thread, that Adore > Machina.

samuel redman
10-08-2010, 10:16 AM
what corganist doesn't understand that any agrument about Adore and its content went out the window when TBK started coming out.

redbreegull
10-08-2010, 10:32 AM
Adore = Siamese Dream > MCIS > Gish > Machina II > Machina >>>> Zeitgeist >>>>>>>>>>>>> Teargarden

ilikeplanets
10-08-2010, 12:09 PM
No....Siamese Dream>MCIS>Gish>Machina>Adore>Machina II>Zeitgiest>TBK

samuel redman
10-08-2010, 12:41 PM
they are all equal in my heart

ilikeplanets
10-08-2010, 12:49 PM
aww

Corganist
10-08-2010, 01:23 PM
MCIS=SD>Zeitgeist=Gish>PI>Machina 2>Machina>Adore

Teargarden right now sits somewhere in the "better than Adore, not as good as M2" range.

Astur
10-08-2010, 01:37 PM
MCIS=SD>Zeitgeist=Gish>PI>Machina 2>Machina>Adore

Teargarden right now sits somewhere in the "better than Adore, not as good as M2" range.

You're fucking deranged

samuel redman
10-08-2010, 01:42 PM
Adore might be the best album ever :)

MeAndMyLlama
10-08-2010, 02:52 PM
corganist why do you like zeitgeist more than pisces iscariot and equal to gish? i'm not trying to start a fight here i am just genuinely curious

Eulogy
10-08-2010, 03:29 PM
MCIS=SD>Zeitgeist=Gish>PI>Machina 2>Machina>Adore

Teargarden right now sits somewhere in the "better than Adore, not as good as M2" range.

hahahahahahahahahaha

i can't even try to argue with you here. just laugh. hahahahahahaha

soniclovenoize
10-08-2010, 03:30 PM
MCIS=SD>Zeitgeist=Gish>PI>Machina 2>Machina>Adore

Teargarden right now sits somewhere in the "better than Adore, not as good as M2" range.

http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/311668-react_mentally_retarded_person.jpg

Eulogy
10-08-2010, 03:31 PM
Adore=SD>MCIS>Gish=Machina=PI=Machina 2>MSOTS=TFE>>>>Zeitgeist>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TBK

Astur
10-08-2010, 03:38 PM
Adore=Locust Abortion Technician>MCIS>Eaten Back to Life>PI=Frizzle Fry>SD>PI>Machina>Machina2>What Does Anything Mean? Basically>MSOTS>TFE>>>>>>Zeitgeist>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TbK

and it seems that no one even remembers American Gothic btw

samuel redman
10-08-2010, 04:00 PM
ah yes, i've always liked AG. *shrug*

Eulogy
10-08-2010, 04:12 PM
Adore=Locust Abortion Technician>MCIS>Eaten Back to Life>PI=Frizzle Fry>SD>PI>Machina>Machina2>What Does Anything Mean? Basically>MSOTS>TFE>>>>>>Zeitgeist>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TbK

and it seems that no one even remembers American Gothic btw

Rose March is a good song that he made sound kinda dumb in studio. I actually liked Pox but I seem to be the only one on that front. But I did completely forget about it. It was a pretty forgettable release.

Corganist
10-08-2010, 05:10 PM
corganist why do you like zeitgeist more than pisces iscariot and equal to gish? i'm not trying to start a fight here i am just genuinely curious

I debated on whether or not to put PI up there with Gish and Zeitgeist, but I decided that since it was more of a compilation than an actual album that it was just hair below them. The margin is really razor thin there.

As for why I like Gish and Zeitgeist the same, I don't know why. I just enjoy them at a similar level. They're both just very consistent, very rocking records that don't overstay their welcome with me. They're both excellent driving records. Maybe Gish is slight hair ahead just based on the fact that it reaches higher highs (Zeitgeist doesn't have anything that compares to Siva or Bury Me, for instance), but it really is negligible to me. I listen to both of them all the time.

I guess I've just always been drawn to the more pop-rock sensibility of Billy's songwriting as opposed to the "art" aspect of it. I didn't get into BWBW and 1979 when I was 16 years old because I thought it was deep or transcendent art. I liked them because they were hook driven rock songs, and when I found out there was a lot more of that, I got into the band. Given that, I don't see how it's really so surprising that even now I enjoy the hooky pop/rock brand of SP more than the artsy/"arcane night music"/concept album version of it.

Caine Walker
10-08-2010, 05:18 PM
Teargarden right now sits somewhere in the "better than Adore, not as good as M2" range.

wait, WHAT?

Ihaguitar
10-08-2010, 05:19 PM
ok I need to know, is Corganist for real or does he just like to wind people up?

Corganist
10-08-2010, 06:27 PM
wait, WHAT?
What's the problem? You guys keep acting like I'm saying Teargarden is a classic and one of my favorite albums. It's floating around the bottom of the list for me, just not the rock bottom. I hardly consider that too blasphemous.

SpFission
10-08-2010, 06:38 PM
MCIS=SD>Adore>Gish>Zeitgeist=TGBK>Machina2>MSOTS>TFE>Machina

ilikeplanets
10-08-2010, 06:47 PM
Damn SpFission...TFE over Machina :/

ilikeplanets
10-08-2010, 06:47 PM
ok I need to know, is Corganist for real or does he just like to wind people up?

surely both

soniclovenoize
10-08-2010, 06:50 PM
All right, I'll bite.

SD = MCIS > Gish = PI = Adore > MI > MII > TGBK > Shitgeist

killtrocity
10-08-2010, 06:56 PM
(Gish < SD = MCIS = Adore > Machina ≈ Machina II) >>>>>>> MSOTS < TFE ≤ Zeitgeist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TBK

soniclovenoize
10-08-2010, 07:05 PM
(Gish < SD = MCIS = Adore > Machina ≈ Machina II) >>>>>>> MSOTS < TFE ≤ Zeitgeist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TBK

http://www.eng.cam.ac.uk/~cnm24/files/EngineeringIIAThermodynamicsandPowerGeneration/ExamplesPaper2Question4(vanderWaalsEquation).gif

ilikeplanets
10-08-2010, 07:24 PM
rofl

soniclovenoize
10-08-2010, 07:26 PM
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad123/soniclovenoize/BillySchool.jpg

SpFission
10-08-2010, 07:52 PM
TGBK is only 7 songs deep.. I expect it to only get better.

Good:
ASIT
The Fellowship
Spangled (although acoustic is better)

Average:
Song for a Son
Freak

Subpar:
WWMM
Astral Planes

3/7 aint that bad

Of course, you guys think it all sucks so whatever.

Astur
10-08-2010, 07:58 PM
you're almost as fucking deranged as corganist

SpFission
10-08-2010, 08:04 PM
you're almost as fucking deranged as corganist

My ranking of TGBK is a prediction of where I expect it to finish once completed, and I'm assuming the songs we haven't heard yet will be better that what has been released so far.

killtrocity
10-08-2010, 09:16 PM
You're assuming an awful lot, though. Even if he writes a really fucking awesome song, the rule since 2000 is that it will be butchered to the point of mediocrity or beyond recognition in the studio, and that's assuming that he still has the ability to write anything close to 1990-2000 quality.

antiskum
10-08-2010, 10:00 PM
SD = MCIS = adore > machina 2 > machina = gish = PI >>> zeitgeist >>>> TBK

slunken
10-08-2010, 11:15 PM
My ranking of TGBK is a prediction of where I expect it to finish once completed, and I'm assuming the songs we haven't heard yet will be better that what has been released so far.

But that's like including an album that doesn't exist but hope they will one day make in the rankings.

SpFission
10-09-2010, 12:52 AM
But that's like including an album that doesn't exist but hope they will one day make in the rankings.

I'm extrapolating. In my opinion EP2 is a lot better than EP1..so I'm hoping EP3 is better than EP2, etc..

vbshlofbvgos
10-09-2010, 01:07 AM
machina had all the potential in the world to be better than adore from what we heard during the arising tour and from some of the songs off machina 2. this was the beginning of him fucking it all up in the studio and he's never looked back.

RenewRevive
10-09-2010, 08:32 AM
i'm not fucking ranking everything but for me and it is personal taste Machina is a little better than Adore. i really don't understand anyone rating TBK or Zeitgeist anywhere near to either album.

aztec litany service
10-09-2010, 06:52 PM
sd>mcis>pi=gish>tafh>adore≥machinas

Order 66
10-09-2010, 07:09 PM
Adore is kind of its own creature and you really can't compare it to the other albums. except for maybe TFE if that counts.

I'm in the minority that really likes machina. it did things with production that are still cutting edge to this day. also I consider machina 1 and 2 as the same. like how dawn to dusk and twilight to starlight are one album. so in that regard its arguably the best album. definitely the most ambitious album if you don't count TBK

soniclovenoize
10-09-2010, 07:18 PM
I'm in the minority that really likes machina. it did things with production that are still cutting edge to this day.

Such as?

Ihaguitar
10-09-2010, 07:18 PM
My ranking of TGBK is a prediction of where I expect it to finish once completed, and I'm assuming the songs we haven't heard yet will be better that what has been released so far.

Assumptions are the mother of all fuck-ups.

paranoid
10-09-2010, 10:57 PM
Such as?

I was about to ask this exact question.

redbreegull
10-10-2010, 12:21 AM
Assumptions are the mother of all fuck-ups.

like the assumption that the actions of a few people are indicative of the behavior of a billion?

Islam smashes two planes into the twin towers then erects a mosque in their place - NICE.