View Full Version : Jimmy discusses the "white van" and how it rekindled his appreciation for music.


Space Girl 1979
04-03-2010, 05:21 AM
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srt4b
04-03-2010, 06:19 AM
fuck this cameraman.

also, i like how it cuts out right as the music starts.

Jesus Cambodia
04-03-2010, 06:46 AM
Awesome. My immediate reaction to this was "Fuck you Billy Corgan, you dumbass stupid motherfucking piece of shit shitty-ass wanna be pop-song makin' son-of-a-bitch!" It's too bad Jimmy couldn't talk some sense into him.

jimmy drevpile
04-03-2010, 06:55 AM
...also, i like how it cuts out right as the music starts.

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cardiac
04-03-2010, 07:28 AM
There's some heartfelt stuff on those clips.

Billy fired this guy.

Let that sink in for a few moments.

Springbridge
04-03-2010, 07:28 AM
His new music is going to be great. Can't wait.

Kahlo
04-03-2010, 07:39 AM
This makes me so excited for the next JC release. The guy comes across as really honest and open without all the BS - I always feel like JC never has anything left to prove, but Corgan seems like the opposite. Long live the white van man!

Starla
04-03-2010, 08:22 AM
Billy needs to take a lesson from jimmy on humility, and how to talk to and treat your fans.

New Art Rioter
04-03-2010, 10:39 AM
Such a badass

Reyngel
04-03-2010, 10:45 AM
When Jimmy said, "The first thing that came to my mind was that it could be a sort of Keith Moon opus," I felt so sad. Because it's THIS kind of intuitive and creative genius in percussion arrangement that Billy dropped for



MIKE FUCKING BYRNE.



Not to mention that Jimmy comes off as such a great guy, and has for many years now.

None of us truly know what happened behind closed doors with Billy and Jimmy, but at the end of the day, who is it that talks more about MUSIC?

Jimmy cares about what he does.

Billy cares about what we care about him doing.

Reyngel
04-03-2010, 10:54 AM
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DAMNIT BILLY CORGAN, what the fuck were you thinking when you chose Byrne's Widow Wake My Mind talent over THIS???

:mad:

Springbridge
04-03-2010, 11:44 AM
When Jimmy said, "The first thing that came to my mind was that it could be a sort of Keith Moon opus," I felt so sad. Because it's THIS kind of intuitive and creative genius in percussion arrangement that Billy dropped for



MIKE FUCKING BYRNE.



Not to mention that Jimmy comes off as such a great guy, and has for many years now.

None of us truly know what happened behind closed doors with Billy and Jimmy, but at the end of the day, who is it that talks more about MUSIC?

Jimmy cares about what he does.

Billy cares about what we care about him doing.

Mike Byrne seems like a nice guy.

New Art Rioter
04-03-2010, 12:30 PM
What I don't get is that hearing Jimmy talk, there's no trace of being destructive there at all... he strikes me as being incredibly focussed, dedicated, passionate and sincere about music and his family. I'd love to know in what context he's destructive. By calling Billy out on terrible ideas I would suspect.

charade
04-03-2010, 12:32 PM
byrne seems like a nice guy. but it`s way easier to be a nice guy if you just 20years (or maybe 12 years?). jimmy is 40 went thru a lot of shit and he IS very nice.
byrne is a good drummer but of course he can`t stand up with jimmy and he`s much too young for a band with older members. corgan could easily be his father. this is disgusting. SP3 is not authentic, it`s an "organization". it were better if billy had chosen a less talented drummer who fits more in the band or who has a style of playing totally different from jimmy. fuck you billy corgan! chamberlin is the only thing left of the true smashing pumpkins. though I don`t like the voice of the "this"-singer that much, the music is a thousand times preferable to billy`s SP3-popsongs and I`m looking forward to buy the upcoming "this"(-album), because the music sound organic, honest and authentic like the pumpkins were many years ago. :-) "this" is what we`ve missed.

Rider
04-03-2010, 12:40 PM
Just because your camera can zoom dose not mean you need to use it.

waltermcphilp
04-03-2010, 12:40 PM
Just wanna chime in and jump on the "billy sucks, jimmy rules once again" band wagon.

nofix
04-03-2010, 03:18 PM
sorry. i don't get it. no one would care about jc if he wasn't in the pumpkins. yeah, good drummer, but don't act like you're perfect, and you have all the answers, and act like you weren't hand in hand with corgan the last 20 years.

Kahlo
04-03-2010, 03:39 PM
what the fuck is your point exactly?

paranoid
04-03-2010, 04:00 PM
right on.. what i've been saying all along. jimmy the man billy is lame.

also cna't believe it took this long for people to notice these vids. i thought you all saw them and just didn't give a fuck. perhaps it took billy bad mouthing JC that brought attention to what he's been up to.

either way he seems to be in a much better place than billy.. he's all like, grown up and stuff.

Corganist
04-03-2010, 04:22 PM
I'm not sure that what Jimmy said here is, at its core, really all that different than the kind of stuff Billy says when he gets off on similar rants. There were a couple times in that clip where it seemed like Jimmy was damn near channeling Billy (the stuff about there not being one hit-making entity anymore, for instance). They seem to view the overall state of the music industry similarly. The only difference is that Jimmy has a defeatist outlook on it. "We can't be popular again in this day and age, so why even try?" is what I'm hearing. He can talk about loving music all day long, but there's no ambition there anymore. And what are the Smashing Pumpkins without ambition?

It's great that Jimmy is getting to do what makes him happy. I just don't see why Billy playing lip service to having a popular song is so bad. If Billy was signed to a big label again and in the studio right now recording "Zeitgeist 2" with a different drummer, autotuned vocals, and rapper guest appearances, then yeah, I suppose you could throw him under the bus for being a pop-song whore. But instead he's recording mediocre folk songs and releasing them for free. The gap between what Billy and Jimmy are respectively doing isn't nearly as wide as some make out.

Ol' Couch Ass
04-03-2010, 04:24 PM
It is great to see Jimmy take what Billy no doubt considered a low blow and putting a positive spin on it. Both dudes have hopefully banked millions and there are worse things than playing to 500-1000 people every night who really want to hear what you're doing and aren't sitting through an awful Pink Floyd cover because they think they have to.

Rider
04-03-2010, 05:11 PM
It is great to see Jimmy take what Billy no doubt considered a low blow and putting a positive spin on it. Both dudes have hopefully banked millions and there are worse things than playing to 500-1000 people every night who really want to hear what you're doing and aren't sitting through an awful Pink Floyd cover because they think they have to.


I don't thin either one of them has anywhere near millions. Well I take that back With all the licencing Bollys been doing I pretty sure he has a few million, but not Jimmy.

redbreegull
04-03-2010, 05:30 PM
I don't thin either one of them has anywhere near millions. Well I take that back With all the licencing Bollys been doing I pretty sure he has a few million, but not Jimmy.

Billy definitely has more than a million dollars dude, licensing aside. The guy has sold somewhere near 30 million records and put on thousands of live performances.

paranoid
04-03-2010, 07:31 PM
"We can't be popular again in this day and age, so why even try?" is what I'm hearing. He can talk about loving music all day long, but there's no ambition there anymore. And what are the Smashing Pumpkins without ambition?



it's called being an adult about the reality of the current situation and not living in denial. Maybe once Billy realizes this perhaps he'll move the fuck on and start focusing on just the quality of his music again.

Araneae
04-03-2010, 07:43 PM
I'm not sure that what Jimmy said here is, at its core, really all that different than the kind of stuff Billy says when he gets off on similar rants. There were a couple times in that clip where it seemed like Jimmy was damn near channeling Billy (the stuff about there not being one hit-making entity anymore, for instance). They seem to view the overall state of the music industry similarly. The only difference is that Jimmy has a defeatist outlook on it. "We can't be popular again in this day and age, so why even try?" is what I'm hearing. He can talk about loving music all day long, but there's no ambition there anymore. And what are the Smashing Pumpkins without ambition?

It's great that Jimmy is getting to do what makes him happy. I just don't see why Billy playing lip service to having a popular song is so bad. If Billy was signed to a big label again and in the studio right now recording "Zeitgeist 2" with a different drummer, autotuned vocals, and rapper guest appearances, then yeah, I suppose you could throw him under the bus for being a pop-song whore. But instead he's recording mediocre folk songs and releasing them for free. The gap between what Billy and Jimmy are respectively doing isn't nearly as wide as some make out.

Finally, something I can agree with you on. I think Jimmy says just as much stupid shit as Billy does, let's not forget that Jimmy's "love letters" and interviews were also saturated with new age crap and all of that other nonsense Billy loves to repeat. I don't think either one of them is necessarily right or wrong on the issue of the current state of music, they're just on different sides of the fence. I don't think it is their mentality that is affecting the quality of their music, I think they seem lost for the most part and have little focus of what and where to go musically. But don't get me wrong, it still sucks that Jimmy won't be on anymore SP recordings (although their output together has been mediocre for several years now, and I don't expect their respective projects will be anything more than mediocre at this rate) and I do think it was a shitty way to end their 20+ years of work and friendship.

waltermcphilp
04-03-2010, 07:44 PM
What a sausage fest.

Also, chill with those air quotes Jimmy.

Rider
04-03-2010, 07:54 PM
Billy definitely has more than a million dollars dude, licensing aside. The guy has sold somewhere near 30 million records and put on thousands of live performances.

He's also bad with money.

Corganist
04-03-2010, 08:25 PM
it's called being an adult about the reality of the current situation and not living in denial. Maybe once Billy realizes this perhaps he'll move the fuck on and start focusing on just the quality of his music again.

Had Billy (or Jimmy for that matter) had that attitude 20 years ago, we would have never heard of either of them. But they had drive, and Billy still has it. I don't see how that can be a bad thing.

If Jimmy wants to be in small scale operation because that's what is the best fit for him right now, that's fantastic. If he loves small shows and playing his own music and having time for his family, then by all means he should do all that and pursue it to the fullest extent. Or if he's just burnt out on being in a large band, or burnt out on Billy, or whatever, that's fine too. Not everyone is a fucking Rolling Stone and wants to go on massive world tours well through middle (and old) age.

But if he's doing it because he somehow thinks that the deck is stacked against he and Billy ever becoming popular again and just doesn't want to try for it anymore then that's just weak. And as fans, I'm not sure why so many accept and defend such an attitude. I mean, we have two people who recognize a difficult problem and assess it the same way. If one says "Let's try harder to solve it," and the other says "Fuck it. It's too hard. Let's give up," how do you really side with the latter?

paranoid
04-03-2010, 09:08 PM
yes but the reality of it all is that no matter how hard billy tries, he'll never, EVER reach that mass appeal he once had. He can have all ambition he wants, but he'll be doing smaller scale shows for the rest of his life, no matter what.

but wait a second here, billy has said as of the recent year that he can accept the fact that he's creating mediocre art these days, and he'd rather do that than pour all of his soul into it.. so what the fuck are you on about? he hasn't really done anything as of recent to indicate that he's giving his all as he did 20 years ago. that time is obviously past and jimmy seems ok with moving on with it and doing what he loves doing best, making music. billy doesn't know what the hell he wants out of his life right now.

Shallowed
04-03-2010, 09:55 PM
sorry. i don't get it. no one would care about jc if he wasn't in the pumpkins. yeah, good drummer, but don't act like you're perfect, and you have all the answers, and act like you weren't hand in hand with corgan the last 20 years.

I don't know if it was mentioned in the wankfest discussion that followed this post, but no-one would care about Billy if he wasn't in the Pumpkins either.

IWishIWasBlank
04-03-2010, 10:33 PM
I was going to add that exact sentiment. Thanks Pasta.

Also would like to add, Jimmy is more respected in drumming circles than Billy in guitar circles.

paranoid
04-03-2010, 10:37 PM
correct.

Shallowed
04-03-2010, 10:51 PM
Shit yeas.

paranoid
04-03-2010, 10:52 PM
mmmmhmm

Corganist
04-03-2010, 11:04 PM
yes but the reality of it all is that no matter how hard billy tries, he'll never, EVER reach that mass appeal he once had. He can have all ambition he wants, but he'll be doing smaller scale shows for the rest of his life, no matter what.

Yeah, I'm sure the festival shows Billy's got lined up are going to be really small and intimate affairs. But don't let pesky little things like facts get in the way of a good story.

but wait a second here, billy has said as of the recent year that he can accept the fact that he's creating mediocre art these days, and he'd rather do that than pour all of his soul into it.. so what the fuck are you on about?

What are you on about? You took that quote completely out of context to serve your own warped view when that interview first came out, and it hasn't gotten any more true just because you continue to do so. That quote had nothing to do with how much soul he pours into his music or him accepting mediocrity. In context, he was talking about the difference between doing art to serve others and doing it to serve himself and how to balance the two. And all he said was that he wasn't going to go self-destructively full bore just to please others, even if it didn't win him any praise.

he hasn't really done anything as of recent to indicate that he's giving his all as he did 20 years ago. that time is obviously past and jimmy seems ok with moving on with it and doing what he loves doing best, making music. billy doesn't know what the hell he wants out of his life right now.

Again, the facts just don't match up with what you're trying to spin. Billy's doing what he's always done. Making music, releasing music, and playing shows. And he's done a lot more of all of that than Jimmy has in the past year. How is the guy who has been almost completely off the radar for more than a year and may or may not actually do something in the future the one who is clearly adjusted and on the straight path and the guy who has actually been out there and producing output during that same time is somehow lost and directionless? :think:

paranoid
04-04-2010, 12:49 AM
fuck. and there you go twisting the facts to serve your own warped view.

for one, jimmy's busy recording a record with a new band, has 15 songs written, and is working with roy thomas baker. but you have your head so far up bills ass you wouldn't know what jim's up to anyway.

festival shows lined up? and what, 1,000 of the people showing up will be pumpkins fans while the rest of the crowd will be hurling insults. festivals aside, he'll be playing smaller venues and his ticket sales will continue to decline. mark my words.

you also missed the part where he said 'if that means i'll be creating mediocre art, i'll be fine with that.' uhm.. had he had that attitude 20 years ago blah blah blah you know the rest.

and really, again the facts don't match up? how about the fact that the music he's been writing the past two years has sucked total balls? i mean sure, it can be subjective, but let's be real here. widow wake my mind, song for a son, stitch, astral> anything from siamese dream? have fun trying to argue that point.

here's the difference between what jimmy is saying, and what billy is saying, in plain english. JC is ok with NOT being popular, because at this point in time, it is not realistic. you honestly think the pumpkins and those associated have any potential to reach the popularity they once had, especially givin the popular culture environment today? c'mon man, use your fucking head. He is, however (and if you were paying any attention to him you'd know this), he is completely comfortable with advancing his music. big reason he left the pumpkins (yes, i don't really think he got canned), is so he could move ahead. he was moving ahead musically with the complex.. and that got interrupted, i feel, when he rejoined SP.. now he's back on track to be the best musician he can possibly be, and comparing how he plays to BC.. i'd say he's far ahead. Billy? he's comfortable with being a mediocre artist/musician, yet he's gun ho about being in the spotlight again. he's got a new scene of friends (jessica simpson, tabloid darling), he's still using the name because he knows that'll sell at least some tickets, he's hiring hacks to back up his band because it's cheaper, has a crappy spiritual blog and book which imo is a total fucking distraction to where his real talent lies, etc etc etc. he's hanging onto every thread he can to get some sort of attention, or regain some relevance, and the music itself seems to take a back seat. he doesn't give a fuck about the quality of his music or his musicianship... and i'm a fucking fan of music.. who do you think i'm going to put on a higher pedestal? fuck corgan.

Pizza Club
04-04-2010, 01:05 AM
I hate you Corganist.

Corganist
04-04-2010, 02:21 AM
fuck. and there you go twisting the facts to serve your own warped view.

for one, jimmy's busy recording a record with a new band, has 15 songs written, and is working with roy thomas baker. but you have your head so far up bills ass you wouldn't know what jim's up to anyway.

That's well and good, and if it comes out and he goes on tour, that'll be great too. But there's a big difference between "going to do" and "has been doing," especially if you're going to toss around half-baked comments about how one guy doesn't know what to do with his life.

festival shows lined up? and what, 1,000 of the people showing up will be pumpkins fans while the rest of the crowd will be hurling insults. festivals aside, he'll be playing smaller venues and his ticket sales will continue to decline. mark my words.

If the Billy was really the damaged goods you so clearly want him to be, a festival wouldn't fucking touch him. Now do I really expect this next tour to be playing to sold out arenas? Hell no. But he's not going to be relegated to clubs and bars the rest of his career either, and it's silly to pretend he will. If this new lineup is a decent live band at all, then Billy will attract about what he usually does at the usual kinds of venues.

you also missed the part where he said 'if that means i'll be creating mediocre art, i'll be fine with that.' uhm.. had he had that attitude 20 years ago blah blah blah you know the rest.

Except that wasn't what he said!!! Obviously you need your memory refreshed.

If I could go back in a time machine and talk to me back then, the thing would surprise him is that at some point I was willing to walk away from being servile to success.

That's a difficult question as an artist because art really is about serving. You want to communicate but there was something about the process of making others happy that somehow was making me feel unhappy. It made me crazy, but I was good at it. It's like you're being rewarded for something that hurts you, but yet everybody is telling you it's a good thing. Then you try to pull that energy back into yourself, you try to make it more about you, and then suddenly you're not making people happy. You're making yourself happy but now that's another form of unhappiness because now you're making other people unhappy. It's taken a long time to get to a place of being OK with it all.

I don't get into the grandiose, "If only one person is touched by it ..." I want people to hear what I'm doing but I think I only go so far. It won't be at the expense of my life, my health, my sanity. If that makes me sort of just an okay artist, well then, I can live with that.

Again, he's not talking about somehow settling for some lesser standard of work. He's clearly talking about how people will judge him as an artist. He's not saying "I'm just gonna half-ass it from here on out." He's saying "I'm going to do my music for me and if people don't judge me as a great artist because of it, I don't care." Taking it as some declaration of him resting on his ass the rest of his career is just retarded, and I don't understand how you can have so much bias against the guy that you'd try to fly with something so patently ridiculous.

and really, again the facts don't match up? how about the fact that the music he's been writing the past two years has sucked total balls? i mean sure, it can be subjective, but let's be real here. widow wake my mind, song for a son, stitch, astral> anything from siamese dream? have fun trying to argue that point.


I won't. It's beside the point.

here's the difference between what jimmy is saying, and what billy is saying, in plain english. JC is ok with NOT being popular, because at this point in time, it is not realistic.

That's called being relegated to defeat. I don't find it admirable.

you honestly think the pumpkins and those associated have any potential to reach the popularity they once had, especially givin the popular culture environment today? c'mon man, use your fucking head.

Of course I don't. I think Billy is tilting at windmills if he really thinks he can reclimb the mountain. But damn if I don't want to see him try, because as long as he's trying he's going to be making more music, and the guy has made a whole hell of a lot more great music than bad music, even in recent years. Trying to be mainstream = more touring, more songs, more news. Being small time = being all but MIA for a year while fans wait for scraps of news. Maybe it makes me a selfish fan to want to see Billy take on an impossible task for my own benefit, but whatever.


He is, however (and if you were paying any attention to him you'd know this), he is completely comfortable with advancing his music. big reason he left the pumpkins (yes, i don't really think he got canned), is so he could move ahead. he was moving ahead musically with the complex.. and that got interrupted, i feel, when he rejoined SP.. now he's back on track to be the best musician he can possibly be, and comparing how he plays to BC.. i'd say he's far ahead.

Then why does he feel he has to justify his "decision to leave" SP with this talk about how difficult it is to be popular? If advancing his musicianship is the overriding factor, then why go on a defeatist rant about the state of the industry? I'm sorry, but such talk tells me that his leaving the band was not him sacrificing the Smashing Pumpkins for the good of his own musicianship like you want to make it out. The guy just didn't have his heart in things as much as he used to....which, again, is fine. But I don't see any reason to congratulate the guy for giving up or scaling back. Fuck that. He's the best drummer in the world and he should want everybody to know it, but because he thinks it's so hard to be popular these days, now they won't.

Billy? he's comfortable with being a mediocre artist/musician, yet he's gun ho about being in the spotlight again. he's got a new scene of friends (jessica simpson, tabloid darling), he's still using the name because he knows that'll sell at least some tickets, he's hiring hacks to back up his band because it's cheaper, has a crappy spiritual blog and book which imo is a total fucking distraction to where his real talent lies, etc etc etc. he's hanging onto every thread he can to get some sort of attention, or regain some relevance, and the music itself seems to take a back seat. he doesn't give a fuck about the quality of his music or his musicianship... and i'm a fucking fan of music.. who do you think i'm going to put on a higher pedestal? fuck corgan.

For someone so concerned about music, you do seem to be worried about of non-musical shit when it comes to Billy. Yet, Jimmy all but loses any kind of drive or ambition in music and severely cuts his musical output, all the while being every bit as fake positive/spacy/religious/new age/etc. as Billy, and yet he can win you over with just a little lip service to how much he loves music. Talk about your double standards.

Space Girl 1979
04-04-2010, 03:32 AM
[ edit: Nevermind... just nevermind... not worth getting into it with Corganist. ]

Kahlo
04-04-2010, 03:48 AM
Petition to change his name to Corganonanist

Starla
04-04-2010, 06:23 AM
God............. jesus!!!

Kahlo
04-04-2010, 08:09 AM
hey dude! Happy magic chocolate day!

paranoid
04-04-2010, 09:58 AM
i can't read all that. holy shit you are completely insane. so .. ok, you posted the billy corgan quote, "If that makes me sort of just an okay artist, well then, I can live with that," which was very fucking close to what I posted as my 'mis-quote,' then you proceed to twist what he said for the sake of your own warped view. look.. he's fine these days with being an 'okay' artist! again, if he said that 20 years ago blah blah ugh.

also, how is that entire quote not a showcase of BC being relegated to defeat?

also, how many festival shows is BC/SP booked for? 1, 2? how many of them are in the US? How many of them are in Europe? Canada? you're making this out to sound like he's got festivals calling him up left and right like he's high demand.

stop using the term 'half baked.' you've over used it now. it's over baked.

i'm not into this with you anymore. you're in babbling retard mode again and it makes me throw things having to read your words. ugh i mean how many excuses are you going to make for this guy? you've got to be the only fan left in the world that can see the same kind of warped world view BC sees with his own eyes. even hipsters united i less warped than this.

slunken
04-04-2010, 10:57 AM
It comes down to money. Jimmy can be happy not banking millions of dollars while Billy seemingly can't live without it anymore.

Astur
04-04-2010, 11:37 AM
I don't see Billy banking millions of dollars on the next years. God I hope he ends up selling all his vintage recording bullshit his fucking mansion i want him to get so poor he can't even afford Strawberry anymore DAMN FUCK YOU BILLY

Corganist
04-04-2010, 11:56 AM
i can't read all that. holy shit you are completely insane. so .. ok, you posted the billy corgan quote, "If that makes me sort of just an okay artist, well then, I can live with that," which was very fucking close to what I posted as my 'mis-quote,' then you proceed to twist what he said for the sake of your own warped view. look.. he's fine these days with being an 'okay' artist! again, if he said that 20 years ago blah blah ugh.

also, how is that entire quote not a showcase of BC being relegated to defeat?

There's a big fucking difference between saying you're fine with being considered "just an okay artist" and saying you're fine with doing art that is just okay. Considering this is Billy Corgan we're talking about, you're either being intellectually dishonest or just absolutely retarded to the extreme to assume he meant the latter. I can't believe you really keep trying to labor this point.

also, how many festival shows is BC/SP booked for? 1, 2? how many of them are in the US? How many of them are in Europe? Canada? you're making this out to sound like he's got festivals calling him up left and right like he's high demand.
All I'm saying is that this wholesale downscaling of the band's profile you so gloomily predict hasn't happened yet. I'm not saying they're a hot ticket. Why would I? They weren't all that hot even when Jimmy was still around.

i'm not into this with you anymore. you're in babbling retard mode again and it makes me throw things having to read your words. ugh i mean how many excuses are you going to make for this guy? you've got to be the only fan left in the world that can see the same kind of warped world view BC sees with his own eyes. even hipsters united i less warped than this.

I just think that if the reason that the Billy and Jimmy rift happened is because Jimmy lost his desire to fight and even try to get back in the mainstream (and based on his comments post-split, it seems like this was the case), then that's not something that I as a fan am going to praise him for. I hope he enjoys what he's doing. I hope he does well at it. I look forward to hearing whatever he puts out. But I'm still going to resent him a little for putting all that above SP more because it was the easy way to go than out of genuine desire to get out on his own.

Kahlo
04-04-2010, 12:07 PM
eugh. Del.

paranoid
04-04-2010, 12:14 PM
"There's a big fucking difference between saying you're fine with being considered "just an okay artist" and saying you're fine with doing art that is just okay."

it's still a cop out.

"I just think that if the reason that the Billy and Jimmy rift happened is because Jimmy lost his desire to fight and even try to get back in the mainstream (and based on his comments post-split, it seems like this was the case)"

given billy's comments post split, and given the fact that jimmy is still working on projects, planning future projects, i doubt that's the case.

and hey, if you like watching billy TRY to get back into something he obviously wont, more power to you.. but it's pathetic and childish from my viewpoint. he had his moment 10 years ago, and it's time to move on from that and put the energy into what he was putting it into full fledge 10-15 years ago, his music. If he was doing that today he'd be in a better place artistically and emotionally. he needs to give up the ghost. i'd really like to see him TRY to make some great music again rather than TRY to reach back towards an impossible height.

"All I'm saying is that this wholesale downscaling of the band's profile you so gloomily predict hasn't happened yet. "

oh it has. BC solo tour '05 he was playing 1,000 seater clubs. now he goes it alone again, yeah with the name but people know the difference.. hell one of the festival posters has it booked as 'Smashing Pumpkins (Billy Corgan)..' 07 and 08 tours were not selling out.. the europe tour was a disaster as well.. now one of the strongest musicians/original members of the group is out. like i said, mark my words.

russian iha
04-04-2010, 12:19 PM
Corganist, what Jimmy and basically everyone here is saying is that the whole music concept has completely changed. And the way Billy is going for mainstream is completely WRONG and is a waste of time. Nobody's gonna be huge anymore. Deftones are realeasing a craftfully produced ultra-slick alternative rock record now that would go five times platinum in 1995, and yet I wonder if it sells more than 300,000 in 2010.

There were NO internet and NO CD-R's in 1995, so any band with a modest press exposure could sell a million copies of any dogshit music just by being mentioned in Rolling Stone or with a word-a-mouth method. Just because you actually had to walk in store and pick up a CD (you could throw it in a dustbin or sell it to second hand store, but nevertheless you had to buy it).

Now nothing sells. Absolutely nothing. The album and ticket sales let artists keep themselves low-profile, just to let them quit their daytime jobs, but certainly no pieces of Gold Coast or Chinese Democracy development hells.

What Jimmy applies is that you have to absorb the situation and live with it. Just like in 1995 you either obey A&R's (remember all that moaning about creative control and bands like Catherine and Swervedriver disbanding because they couldn't find a label) and see yourself on the cover of Spin or just dropping out of music business. Everyone lived with that. So now you have to live with the fact that no one buys music. And there's nothing anyone (including Corgan) can do with it, no matter how hard they try. Even if you go Reznor's way, it won't bring you gazillions like releasing one 7" could do in 1992.

Rider
04-04-2010, 12:55 PM
"...we are one."

:smoke: John 17:22 :smoke:



Look at you posting after the crucifixion, all risen from the dead and zombie like.

Ol' Couch Ass
04-04-2010, 01:38 PM
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Corganist = Corgan. Only the man himself could be in such denial. Whenever I think about Corganist I think about a Holocaust denier sprucing up the ovens at Auschwitz all the while thinking "man my fellow Nazis sure loved pizza!"

charade
04-04-2010, 03:27 PM
billy corgan is today just a clone... the real billy corgan was abducted by aliens and lives in alpha reticuli know. he still rocks!

duovamp
04-04-2010, 03:49 PM
Jimmy's so much more articulate here than I've ever seen. He isn't quiet and sniffing every four seconds, nodding his head and awkwardly squeaking out a word or two.

He had some pretty good words about the Pumpkins tbh.

charade
04-04-2010, 05:20 PM
in fact jimmys has become an even better drummer than he was during zwan and "pumpkins 1.0".
nevertheless he has an ego too and though he is just a drummer he behaves like the core of "(t)his" band-project. he is not the voice in the music and he doesn`t play the guitars. he is just a drummer and also if he arranges the songs or writes them a drummer is never the main performer of a song. but he stands in the first row and the other musicians in his band-projects always seem like marionettes. this is the same approach like corgan. the only difference is jimmys ego seems more "acceptable" because he can justify his behavior with his enormous talent as a drummer. but it`s still an ego-think. jimmy doesn`t need good song-ideas, his drumming will always be good. no one will ever judge him on that. but beeing a songwriter and singer is far harder. jimmy can always play the same figures and patterns, mix them together, create some new variations and so on. but corgan must always create completly new songs and still they should sound like pumpkins. because 400 of his songs already sound like pumpkins in any imagiable variation I guess it`s very difficult to match this pumpkins-sound on and on again because the range to write good songs in this pumpkiniseque way of harmonies and melodies can`t be infinite.
we all assume that corgan is able to write real and good pumpkins-songs again, he seems to think the same, at least he claims so but I doubt if he really can. if he could why should he prefer to write such stupid hippe shit? why should he prefer this, if he could have the rock-olymp again and get this sort of huge attention without the help of any jessica simpson? ;-)

Mo
04-04-2010, 05:46 PM
Hm... NO.


Life Begins Again > Zeitgeist.

vbshlofbvgos
04-04-2010, 07:36 PM
i'd really like to see him TRY to make some great music again rather than TRY to reach back towards an impossible height.


I'm with you 100% in wishing that Billy would stop releasing terrible (mediocre at best) music under the SP name. But I'm not so sure he isn't trying to make the best music he can. I mean wasn't his reasoning behind reforming SP to create the best music he possibly could without any limitations? Well that and the money obviously.
Now granted, if he went solo he would probably take a different approach at songwriting. Which would be a good thing. But I just don't know if he can make really great music anymore. He's a completely different person now.

srt4b
04-04-2010, 08:05 PM
Is the Corganist guy for real?

Corganist
04-05-2010, 12:01 AM
it's still a cop out.

What, exactly, is he copping out of?

given billy's comments post split, and given the fact that jimmy is still working on projects, planning future projects, i doubt that's the case.

I didn't say Jimmy lost his drive to do projects. I said he lost his drive to do the work required to be in the mainstream.

and hey, if you like watching billy TRY to get back into something he obviously wont, more power to you.. but it's pathetic and childish from my viewpoint. he had his moment 10 years ago, and it's time to move on from that and put the energy into what he was putting it into full fledge 10-15 years ago, his music. If he was doing that today he'd be in a better place artistically and emotionally. he needs to give up the ghost. i'd really like to see him TRY to make some great music again rather than TRY to reach back towards an impossible height.

But the two are one and the same to him. He has never had a time at any point in his career where he wasn't consumed by mainstream success. You act like he was 110 percent music minded back in the 90s and the band just happened to get big by accident. In actuality, making the band big was the main thing on Billy's mind. If anything came by accident, it might have been the great music.

I think it's very presumptive of you to repeatedly sit here and pontificate on Billy's effort level or his emotional health...especially when your pontifications are so out of line with the years and years of watching him and seeing his character. In order for your version of things to make sense, the guy would have had to undergo an almost complete personality break in recent years...but anyone paying attention should be able to tell that Billy is the exact same asshole he has always been. It's just not working for him as well these days.

oh it has. BC solo tour '05 he was playing 1,000 seater clubs. now he goes it alone again, yeah with the name but people know the difference.. hell one of the festival posters has it booked as 'Smashing Pumpkins (Billy Corgan)..' 07 and 08 tours were not selling out.. the europe tour was a disaster as well.. now one of the strongest musicians/original members of the group is out. like i said, mark my words.

What Billy did on his solo tour is of no consequence here. And it seems we're having two separate arguments. I'm not arguing that the band is on it's way back to arena shows, I'm just saying that the band's popularity and live show attendance will probably hold about where they've been since 2007, even despite Jimmy's absence. Is that a place of massive 90s level success and huge crowds? No. But is it necessarily small-scale? No. And unless this new incarnation of the band is unspeakably terrible, then I don't see that changing anytime soon.

duovamp
04-05-2010, 12:49 AM
LOL

tweedyburd
04-05-2010, 02:16 AM
It's like Corganist is arguing for or defending an argument for a deceased paradigm of popular music. What RussianIha said is 100% true. Jimmy is simply choosing to deal with the reality rather than wallow in fantasy land, and it is ultimately this road which will be proven to reach more actual music fans in the future. It's almost as if this thread has revealed that you do not have the maturity of perspective to understand what Jimmy is saying, and I'm not trying to patronize you by saying that.

Also, it's pretty ridiculous to claim that Jimmy hasn't done anything in comparison to what Corgan has done for the past year. What exactly has Billy done, other than release three songs and perform a short tour filled with material developed and written well in advance? Jimmy left the Pumpkins and basically started over from scratch with zero material. So when you try to compare the two situations as if each player is working from the same starting point in relation to where they are now, you are being intellectually dishonest yourself.

redbull
04-05-2010, 02:18 AM
maybe corganist and esty are two opposite sides of the same person

Shallowed
04-05-2010, 02:39 AM
"...we are one."

:smoke: John 17:22 :smoke:

Wrong Beatle, dude.

Esty
04-05-2010, 03:08 AM
maybe corganist and esty are two opposite sides of the same person


Don't compare me with that stupid fucking joke of a lawyer. Guy probably never won a case with his "logic".

DiscoJon
04-05-2010, 04:35 AM
Don't compare me with that stupid fucking joke of a lawyer. Guy probably never won a case with his "logic".

Corganist is a lawyer? He and Aaron Bitter should start a firm together.:bananamac

fuzzyroes
04-05-2010, 07:37 AM
I think its awesome Jimmy's just in it strictly for the music. The fame aspect really doesn't mean shit to him which is why its awesome that he is truckin it out in a "white van"

I think with Corgan he's just more interested in the fame and the business aspects and is probably the reason why Jimmy started to lose sight of why he was playing and is much happier just focusing on the music.

Jimmy is one of the best and its just pathetic that Corgan canned this guy for some immature kid who doesn't even have a destinct style of his own... A Jimmy wannabe so to speak... I'm all for Billys Spirituality... I truely am but you cant let it override common sense... Sure he thinks Jimmys negative, Well who knows how he'll be thinking of this young kid byrne after being on the road with him after awhile... I find it hard to believe that he could have much of a connection with a 19 year old kid.

One things for sure, I certainly am curious to see how this "new" Smashing Pumpkins pans out

Shallowed
04-05-2010, 08:02 AM
Corganist is a lawyer? He and Aaron Bitter should start a firm together.:bananamac

A stupid fucking joke of a lawyer, at that. :banging:

paranoid
04-05-2010, 10:38 AM
Also, it's pretty ridiculous to claim that Jimmy hasn't done anything in comparison to what Corgan has done for the past year. What exactly has Billy done, other than release three songs and perform a short tour filled with material developed and written well in advance? Jimmy left the Pumpkins and basically started over from scratch with zero material. So when you try to compare the two situations as if each player is working from the same starting point in relation to where they are now, you are being intellectually dishonest yourself.

bingo. incredibly weak arguments all around.

Corganist
04-05-2010, 02:15 PM
It's like Corganist is arguing for or defending an argument for a deceased paradigm of popular music. What RussianIha said is 100% true. Jimmy is simply choosing to deal with the reality rather than wallow in fantasy land, and it is ultimately this road which will be proven to reach more actual music fans in the future. It's almost as if this thread has revealed that you do not have the maturity of perspective to understand what Jimmy is saying, and I'm not trying to patronize you by saying that.

I'm not claiming to be expressing some deep understanding of how someone should approach achieving success in the music industry in this day and age. On an objective level, it is absolutely likely that Jimmy is going to be more successful at what he is setting out to do than Billy is. When you aim low, you're usually going to hit your mark. Aiming high will very likely set you up for catastrophic failure. I recognize that perfectly well.

But as a fan of both of these guys, and in particular the music these guys have made together, I get no benefit in seeing them resigning themselves to "dealing with reality" and setting their sights low. Look at it this way, Billy's doomed efforts just since 2007 to keep SP a household name has gotten us a full album, a DVD, an EP, two or three songs released through commercial means, three songs released for free, and a pretty fair amount of touring. And there's every reason to expect more in the very near future. Opinions about the quality of that work aside, that's a pretty good amount of output for 2 1/2, 3 years. As a fan, I can't complain about getting to hear a lot of music. But what has the Jimmy Chamberlin "dealing with reality" path brought us as fans in the past year and a half? We haven't heard one fucking drum hit from the guy that wasn't at a drum clinic.

Also, it's pretty ridiculous to claim that Jimmy hasn't done anything in comparison to what Corgan has done for the past year. What exactly has Billy done, other than release three songs and perform a short tour filled with material developed and written well in advance?
Did he really need to do more than that when the competition produced absolutely nothing in comparison?

Jimmy left the Pumpkins and basically started over from scratch with zero material. So when you try to compare the two situations as if each player is working from the same starting point in relation to where they are now, you are being intellectually dishonest yourself.

Come on. It's not like Jimmy has never been out on his own and doesn't know how to get a solo project together. You can't have me believe that a guy who is as obsessed with advancing his musicianship and as consumed by a love of music as you guys want to give him credit for really had zero usable solo material when he left SP in 2008. His last album came out 5 years ago now, and he had put absolutely nothing together since? I really doubt that.

Maybe Jimmy gets a slight handicap for not necessarily having the structure in place to immediately begin recording on his own the way Billy could, but again, the guy has made a record before and by all indications had been planning a followup for a while, so I really doubt that he was really as far behind the curve as you want to have me believe.

Shallowed
04-05-2010, 02:24 PM
Did he really need to do more than that when the competition produced absolutely nothing in comparison?

How sad and pathetic is it that Bill's competition is reduced to his former band mates?

Corganist
04-05-2010, 02:41 PM
How sad and pathetic is it that Bill's competition is reduced to his former band mates?

That would be sad, if it were even remotely the case. But it's not. Which isn't to say that Billy is faring all that well against his actual competition, whoever that may be, but that's beside the point. Let's keep things in context (which is Billy's output post-split vs. Jimmy's).

Shallowed
04-05-2010, 02:48 PM
"Whoever that may be"


.....

jimmy drevpile
04-05-2010, 02:51 PM
...which is Billy's output post-split vs. Jimmy's...

Playing shows & releasing music doesn't mean anything, if it's shit. Sorry, 'B-pile'.

paranoid
04-05-2010, 07:16 PM
also jimmy played a few tunes on the new gannin arnold record released this past year.

i don't get it.. were you expecting him to put together another full fledge band, have another record written and released within the year after he left the pumpkins, and band he devoted most if not all of his time to from late 2005 to early 2009? Good things take time to come together, wish bill could realize that.

you'll see soon enough what he's been up to the past year, you dolt.

paranoid
04-05-2010, 07:36 PM
basically your argument boils down to.. 'well billy was more productive in the public eye in 2009-2010, so to praise jimmy is ludicrous and ya'll should be bigger fans of corgan and not jimmy because jimmy wasn't as productive and i don't look up to people that are not productive.'

do you ever, at any point, consider what a big shit you are?

Corganist
04-05-2010, 08:06 PM
also jimmy played a few tunes on the new gannin arnold record released this past year.

I stand corrected then on that much. This is the first time I'd heard of this, as I'm pretty sure the news was never posted here.

i don't get it.. were you expecting him to put together another full fledge band, have another record written and released within the year after he left the pumpkins, and band he devoted most if not all of his time to from late 2005 to early 2009? Good things take time to come together, wish bill could realize that.

No, I didn't expect him to rush an album right out. But remember, this whole tangent started because you were trying to make it out like Jimmy has the world figured out and is doing what he wants to do and that Billy is some confused wandering soul who doesn't know what to eat for breakfast tomorrow, much less what he wants to do with his music career. Yet, one has barely been seen or heard in the music world for a year and a half, and the other has actually played a few shows, released a few songs, and is gearing up to tour within the next couple months.

basically your argument boils down to.. 'well billy was more productive in the public eye in 2009-2010, so to praise jimmy is ludicrous and ya'll should be bigger fans of corgan and not jimmy because jimmy wasn't as productive and i don't look up to people that are not productive.'

My argument is about Jimmy's attitude, not his productivity. I'm not going to condemn the guy for wanting to take it easy and only pop up every few years with something new...but as a fan I'd much rather have had him playing with Billy for this past year instead of being hidden away. In the end, Jimmy's "realistic" attitude towards the music industry means that we're going to hear a lot less of him than we would have if he'd stayed the course with Billy, and I don't know if any record he can do can be good enough to make up for that loss. I'm not going to pretend that I think otherwise.

paranoid
04-05-2010, 09:10 PM
you obviously pay much less attention to jimmy than some jimmy fans do, so for you to comment on this like you know everything he's up to is quite presumptuous. In my case, I'm pretty up to date on what both him and corgan are doing, and i'm appreciating what jimmy's up to and what he's got in store for his musical future. He'll be making music and enjoying it a lot longer than billy will.. and you can quote on that in the future as well.

also, you'd be hearing more from jimmy if you paid more attention to him and didn't only give him notice when he's sitting behind the guy you're really interested in hearing from, billy corgan.

Space Girl 1979
04-05-2010, 09:42 PM
Corganist. You are a fucking idiot. :rofl:

Corganist
04-05-2010, 10:24 PM
you obviously pay much less attention to jimmy than some jimmy fans do, so for you to comment on this like you know everything he's up to is quite presumptuous. In my case, I'm pretty up to date on what both him and corgan are doing, and i'm appreciating what jimmy's up to and what he's got in store for his musical future.

I don't think what he's up to is really common knowledge, considering the fact it is April and that we're talking about comments he made way back in December as though it is news. And the first mention of the Gannin Arnold thing I've seen anywhere was in this thread. Maybe that's my fault for relying on this board to inform me of relevant news concerning the band members when it happens, but I don't think that the fact that I don't follow Roy Thomas Baker's Twitter feed on the off chance he might give some scrap of info about Jimmy really undermines my assessments of Jimmy's public comments. His words speak for themselves really, and they show a somewhat lackadaisical attitude.

He'll be making music and enjoying it a lot longer than billy will.. and you can quote on that in the future as well.

He may or may not enjoy music as much as Billy. I think it's impossible from the outside to make any such determination, and it's meaningless in the scheme of things from where you and I stand. If Billy or Jimmy enjoy making music that ends up shitty, that does nobody any good. As far as longevity goes, I don't see how you can compare the two so confidently. Billy has been making music non-stop for 20 years and has shown absolutely no signs of slowing down. Jimmy has slowed down more than once (1996-1999 weren't terribly productive years for him either). If anything, Jimmy has shown that he can get by without making music. He seems like the type who could retire and be content (and to me, that's what he's building to). Billy? Not so much.

also, you'd be hearing more from jimmy if you paid more attention to him and didn't only give him notice when he's sitting behind the guy you're really interested in hearing from, billy corgan.

Ah, but that's the drawback of Jimmy's whole 'white van' mentality. What good is being the best drummer in rock if people have to scrape and scrounge to know what you're up to? I consider myself a fan of Jimmy's, but it was generally a lot easier to know what Jimmy Chamberlin, member of the Smashing Pumpkins, is up to at the moment than it is to know what Jimmy Chamberlin, some guy who is currently recording an album somewhere and not playing any shows is up to.

Corganist
04-05-2010, 10:30 PM
I must also add that it's pretty low that you resort to pulling out the "true fan" card on me.

paranoid
04-05-2010, 10:38 PM
where the fuck did i pull that out? you obviously haven't been keeping up to date on jimmy, that has nothing to do with whether or not you are a true fan. fuck all mighty you are full of it. it's pretty fucking low of you to accuse me of pulling that card.

and what good is the amount of billy's output if only 10 of the songs from the past decade have been anything interesting and worthwhile in comparison to his previous output? and in most cases only in the fans eyes? (the mainstream barely knows 2 songs he's written since 1998). we can debate this all day but i'll argue that 'life begins again' is the most interesting thing to come out of any of the pumpkins post 2000 break up.

and are we talking about his comments as thought they are NEWS? looks like we're just acknowledging some things he's said in comparison to some things billy has said as of recent.

paranoid
04-05-2010, 10:39 PM
and get rid of that fucking avatar already. it probably makes me angrier and more frustrated with you than i actually am.

paranoid
04-05-2010, 10:52 PM
also, hasn't billy be spouting off a defeatist personality about music over the past 3 years now? look up any you tube video of him talking with fans after the show.. about no one cares about music, everyone just downloads the two songs they like, so what's the point of spending all this time on an entire record of songs, etc etc etc. he's constantly bitching about the business, etc etc. wasn't he part of the 'we're not doing records anymore' spiel a while back?

Corganist
04-05-2010, 11:20 PM
where the fuck did i pull that out? you obviously haven't been keeping up to date on jimmy, that has nothing to do with whether or not you are a true fan. fuck all mighty you are full of it. it's pretty fucking low of you to accuse me of pulling that card.

Spare me. You know exactly what you were doing. I don't think that not knowing about two guest appearance tracks on another artist's album really has anything to do with my take on Jimmy's recent comments. And it's cheap to suggest otherwise. But FWIW, now that I'm "up to date," my opinion has not changed.

and what good is the amount of billy's output if only 10 of the songs from the past decade have been anything interesting and worthwhile in comparison to his previous output? and in most cases only in the fans eyes? (the mainstream barely knows 2 songs he's written since 1998). we can debate this all day but i'll argue that 'life begins again' is the most interesting thing to come out of any of the pumpkins post 2000 break up.

You're entitled to that opinion, and I might even be inclined to agree with it. But the only reason I'm stressing output level is that I think it reflects attitude. Maybe work ethic doesn't translate to quality of the end product on way or the other, but that doesn't mean that Jimmy's blase "why bother working hard to be popular" and "music is such a small part of people's lives" sort of statements should be excused, should it? Especially when you're raking Billy over the coals for what you (wrongfully) consider to be statements that show a blase attitude about his own art.

and are we talking about his comments as thought they are NEWS? looks like we're just acknowledging some things he's said in comparison to some things billy has said as of recent.

It just seems to me that these videos would have been talked about closer to the time they happened if Jimmy was really something everybody was really following closely.

Corganist
04-05-2010, 11:33 PM
also, hasn't billy be spouting off a defeatist personality about music over the past 3 years now? look up any you tube video of him talking with fans after the show.. about no one cares about music, everyone just downloads the two songs they like, so what's the point of spending all this time on an entire record of songs, etc etc etc. he's constantly bitching about the business, etc etc. wasn't he part of the 'we're not doing records anymore' spiel a while back?

Yes, Billy indulges his own defeatism from time to time too, and it's not defensible when he says the dumb things he does about the music industry. But ultimately his actions rarely match his rhetoric. He'll bitch and bitch about the industry, only to come running back to it in some way, usually with him bragging about how he's changing the system from within. It'll happen again when the Teargarden project falls apart too. He'll be releasing regular albums on a big label before we know it. It definitely makes him a hypocrite, but I'd rather him be a hypocrite and try hard instead of face "reality" and scale back.

paranoid
04-05-2010, 11:37 PM
sorry to burst your bubble but that's not what I was doing. if you're going to argue about jimmy's work know what the fuck he's doing before you comment on it. simple as that.

also, don't forget quality of the output also reflects attitude. going by that standard bill's got a pretty shitty attitude towards his music.

"It just seems to me that these videos would have been talked about closer to the time they happened if Jimmy was really something everybody was really following closely."

yeah well unfortunately the majority of the fans are more interested in gossip related to corgan as of recent. save for a crappy song every three months, netphoria's been buzzing more with who he's dating, what he has to say about former band mates, etc etc., than they do about his music. The discussion on the actual music has subsided greatly the past few years. not sure whose fault that is exactly but you shouldn't be surprised if the fans aren't paying attention to the one member of the band who actually seems to give a shit solely about playing music. Netphoria is a good info source, but not always the most reliable.. especially with the state the pumpkins have been in the past year and a half.

paranoid
04-05-2010, 11:41 PM
Yes, Billy indulges his own defeatism from time to time too, and it's not defensible when he says the dumb things he does about the music industry. But ultimately his actions rarely match his rhetoric. He'll bitch and bitch about the industry, only to come running back to it in some way, usually with him bragging about how he's changing the system from within. It'll happen again when the Teargarden project falls apart too. He'll be releasing regular albums on a big label before we know it. It definitely makes him a hypocrite, but I'd rather him be a hypocrite and try hard instead of face "reality" and scale back.

see this is my point. if he'd stop with all this non sense, and concentrate on writing some great fucking songs again like he is capable of, he's be making something interesting and worthwhile. all this 'trying' to defeat the system is a complete fucking distraction to where his talent really lies. in 2004, if he had released the zwan acoustic stuff, in favor of trying to make some grand pop rock friendly statement, he'd be viewed with greater eyes by the public than he is being viewed now. That material, to me, showed that he completely capable of growing as an artist. but his head is still up the ass of trying to make a hit, and the best material gets thrown out.

Space Girl 1979
04-06-2010, 12:10 AM
The only thing more pathetic than Corganist's retarted logic is the fact he tries to vomit it upon the non-caring masses of netphoria.

Paranoid. Let it go. Corganist obviously has one hand under the desk when he posts on Netphoria. There's no other explanation.

Seriously. When you argue with Corganist, you are responsible for him touching himself.

Just think about it.

paranoid
04-06-2010, 12:47 AM
The only thing more pathetic than Corganist's retarted logic is the fact he tries to vomit it upon the non-caring masses of netphoria.

Paranoid. Let it go. Corganist obviously has one hand under the desk when he posts on Netphoria. There's no other explanation.

Seriously. When you argue with Corganist, you are responsible for him touching himself.

Just think about it.

and you think i'm not touching myself?

Space Girl 1979
04-06-2010, 01:21 AM
and you think i'm not touching myself?

:erm:

Catherine Wheel
04-06-2010, 01:24 AM
You act like he was 110 percent music minded back in the 90s and the band just happened to get big by accident. In actuality, making the band big was the main thing on Billy's mind. If anything came by accident, it might have been the great music.

I think it's very presumptive of you to repeatedly sit here and pontificate on Billy's effort level or his emotional health...especially when your pontifications are so out of line with the years and years of watching him and seeing his character. In order for your version of things to make sense, the guy would have had to undergo an almost complete personality break in recent years...but anyone paying attention should be able to tell that Billy is the exact same asshole he has always been. It's just not working for him as well these days.

There is some truth to this. I think Billy Corgan has always been somewhat of an opportunist and careerist.

russian iha
04-06-2010, 01:35 AM
Corganist, Billy's way of "trying" is like to show up unprepared to job audition and burst in tears begging for an employment, instead of getting shit together and tightening yourself as professional beforehand.

I know, America loves people who try, but there's a difference in the ways one can do it. Billy's way is immature and shallow.

stumpycat
04-06-2010, 01:36 AM
I suppose I could believe Corganist is a lawyer--he is the ultimate apologist for his client, i.e. Mr. Corgan.

this whole tangent started because you were trying to make it out like Jimmy has the world figured out and is doing what he wants to do and that Billy is some confused wandering soul who doesn't know what to eat for breakfast tomorrow, much less what he wants to do with his music career.
This is a pretty damned accurate insight, if you ask me. Although Jimmy has managed to develop a somewhat "normal" life outside of music that makes his life more complete and fulfilling, he still actually has a love for the music itself. Yet Billy continually evidences that he really doesn't have any damned idea what he wants to do with life outside of his past identity, and in part because of that meandering lack of direction in his life, he simply clings to what he knows--music. Even though he appears to derive less and less actual enjoyment out of the process. It sometimes appears he's just forcing himself to go through the motions for lack of having anything better to do.

Corganist
04-06-2010, 02:17 AM
see this is my point. if he'd stop with all this non sense, and concentrate on writing some great fucking songs again like he is capable of, he's be making something interesting and worthwhile. all this 'trying' to defeat the system is a complete fucking distraction to where his talent really lies. in 2004, if he had released the zwan acoustic stuff, in favor of trying to make some grand pop rock friendly statement, he'd be viewed with greater eyes by the public than he is being viewed now. That material, to me, showed that he completely capable of growing as an artist. but his head is still up the ass of trying to make a hit, and the best material gets thrown out.

I actually agree with you here to a point. I do think that Billy sometimes strives for success so much that it causes him to keep himself from succeeding, like when he holds back great material out of fear that it doesn't fit someone else's idea of what will sell or get radio play. I just don't think the answer necessarily lies in him coming back down to reality and accepting he won't be a star again the way Jimmy has. If he wants to fight the system, I think it's well and good, even preferable, for him to try...but he should trust his instincts, stop playing it safe, and let his material fight the fight for him.

Corganist
04-06-2010, 02:21 AM
Corganist, Billy's way of "trying" is like to show up unprepared to job audition and burst in tears begging for an employment, instead of getting shit together and tightening yourself as professional beforehand.

I know, America loves people who try, but there's a difference in the ways one can do it. Billy's way is immature and shallow.

No real argument here. Billy isn't putting his best foot forward by any means. But if you're bombing interviews for hard-to-get jobs, is it not better to keep trying to get better at it and maybe one day land the job rather than settling for flipping burgers because the job market sucks?

Corganist
04-06-2010, 02:48 AM
Yeah guy, reading is SO HARD. How does anybody do it? :rolleyes:

Sorry I don't use the small words and large print for you.

Space Girl 1979
04-06-2010, 03:28 AM
SO HARD

Apparently it's quite hard for you.

http://forums.netphoria.org/customavatars/avatar3671_1.gif

zbeast78
04-06-2010, 09:02 AM
I do think that Billy sometimes strives for success so much that it causes him to keep himself from succeeding, like when he holds back great material out of fear that it doesn't fit someone else's idea of what will sell or get radio play.

I don't think it's hording better material that's the issue, it's ruining material in the studio. Do you really think these great hidden gems would still be considered great if they were released in studio format, with typical Corgan overproduction? I thought Rose March was a pretty vicious song until I heard the studio version.

This has been said a million times on this board, as far back as the Machina days; Corgan desperately needs a producer that can overrule him when he's about to fuck a song up. Billy can still write a decent song, I honestly believe this to be fact. But he's proven time and time again that left to his own devices, he will overproduce his songs until their soulless.

duovamp
04-06-2010, 09:11 AM
I thought Corganist was still in law school tbh.

Cool As Ice Cream
04-06-2010, 10:07 AM
i can't watch these videos. can someone tell me the story of the white van? i have no idea what it is about.

Cool As Ice Cream
04-06-2010, 10:40 AM
SOMEONE PLEASE?
ANY REAL FANS HERE?

duovamp
04-06-2010, 10:54 AM
Alright, alright, calm it down.


I wasn't paying 100% attention, but it goes like this: Jimmy wanted to do his own thing after Zwan. His wife wanted to make sure it wasn't Jimmy just dumping cash into a random project, so they decided the band would have to "stand on its own." So he cheaped out, both in terms of a manager and the movement of instruments. Moving said instruments required a cheap white rental van of sorts. Then read the thread title, and that's the story.

tweedyburd
04-06-2010, 12:11 PM
Corganist is a lawyer? Haha, that explains a lot. Isn't it your job to be a devil's advocate all day long anyway?

tweedyburd
04-06-2010, 12:20 PM
If your definition of "aiming high" is to try and foolishly achieve something that no longer exists while your peers evolve and adapt with the times, then you are completely hopeless. You are basing your idea and standard of success upon a template that no longer exists, and while aiming for something that is no longer a possibility may appear to be a valiant, noble thing in your eyes, for the majority of us it really isn't all that admirable so much as it is a bit pathetic. It makes him look quite foolish, like someone who doesn't have much awareness outside of himself and his insular vision. And that is where Billy is stuck right now. And I don't think there is anything particularly admirable about being oblivious.

Teargarden is nothing more than a Billy vanity project. It's not really about the music anymore. Anybody with any sense or who pays attention knows that. He might say his heart is still in the music, and he might even believe it. And it may even be true in a certain way. But think about what he's actually releasing and just wonder how much self-convincing it must require to reconcile the "ambition" to the reality. The reality that he is frustrated ultimately because his narrow idea of success and of how to reach people no longer applies. It would be as if you were the guy who invented the zip drive and still believed beyond reason that it was a superior technology, all while the tech world blew past you. There is nothing about Jimmy's approach that is "aiming low," though I could see how someone would choose to interpret it that way, if your only idea of success is to achieve massive exposure in a fractured media world. Jimmy simply realized he'd be wasting his talents on the old model, and chose instead to move on to a newer one, a model that in my mind assures he is really more about music than Billy, seeing as how the only reason to seek out his work from this point forward is because you dig the music and only the music, and not because you want to hear about some New Age philosophy or messiah character before you even know what you're listening to.

Perhaps the biggest irony is that Billy may have reached a new level of success and critical acclaim had he pulled his head out of his ass and surveyed the new landscape 6-8 years ago. It seems like he briefly attempted to do that with Zwan, Djali Zwan, the Chicago songs, etc. But no, he had to resume his "character," and then the actual music took a backseat again.

pineapple*soul
04-06-2010, 01:15 PM
Guys, stop feeding the troll.

Corganist
04-06-2010, 04:22 PM
I halfway think I'm the one who is being trolled here. I know I've said this before, but I know that if Billy was the one who was espousing the white van, "why bother," "music is such a small part of people's lives" mentality, and Jimmy was the one who still thought SP had a chance at some semblance of mainstream stardom, then most of you would be singing a completely different tune.

You guys can't really be serious when you say that you would actually be happy to see these guys settle for being niche artists.

Dogfighter28
04-06-2010, 04:27 PM
Why yes, if each man was a completely different person, then we would feel differently. What a brilliant counterpoint!

Corganist
04-06-2010, 04:42 PM
Why yes, if each man was a completely different person, then we would feel differently. What a brilliant counterpoint!

So you agree that it comes down to nothing more than Billy=bad person, Jimmy=good person, no matter what actual principles they happen to hold at a given moment? What the hell kind of argument is that?

stumpycat
04-06-2010, 08:26 PM
You guys can't really be serious when you say that you would actually be happy to see these guys settle for being niche artists.

Hell yes. Why not? I used to be caught up in all that shit about wanting "my" band to win all the awards, ingratiate themselves into my friends' musical tastes, etc., but I've long since grown past that stage of desiring nothing more than to assimilate as many people as possible into my own cults of fandom. (This is a pretty common mentality for fans, as otherwise the concept of "street teams" would never have emerged.) At this point I can see that just being a "niche" artist would really clear all the non-music related bullshit from the path, in part because of the self-selectivity of the process of becoming a niche artist itself. Niche artists are okay with putting their hearts into music, with the foreknowledge that securing the fame and attentions of everyone in the world isn't really a goal on the radar.

Corgan HAS had the chance to be on the top in a place that few other bands have ever experienced. Like Pearl Jam, NIN, etc., he had his special place and time. The only difference is that many of his peers seem to understand that to some extent, and spend less time obsessing about what happened to the masses than just going merrily about their ways and letting things fall where they may. As a result bands like Pearl Jam are still chugging along at a fairly steady pace, and actually reasonably popular. And perhaps that's why Iha and Jimmy got off Billy's silly train. (Billy's always carried around a certain amount of silly bullshit baggage with him, but the other band members probably put up with it because they knew they were involved in a project with gravitas. Once that began to unravel, the whole force which held the band together began to unravel as well.)

srt4b
04-07-2010, 12:28 AM
Corganist is an epic troll, he has taken down this entire message board.

tweedyburd
04-07-2010, 12:57 AM
Well said stumpycat. That's what I was trying to say but you said it much better.

Corganist
04-07-2010, 02:52 AM
Hell yes. Why not? I used to be caught up in all that shit about wanting "my" band to win all the awards, ingratiate themselves into my friends' musical tastes, etc., but I've long since grown past that stage of desiring nothing more than to assimilate as many people as possible into my own cults of fandom. (This is a pretty common mentality for fans, as otherwise the concept of "street teams" would never have emerged.) At this point I can see that just being a "niche" artist would really clear all the non-music related bullshit from the path, in part because of the self-selectivity of the process of becoming a niche artist itself. Niche artists are okay with putting their hearts into music, with the foreknowledge that securing the fame and attentions of everyone in the world isn't really a goal on the radar.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not praising the virtues of Billy being obsessed with stardom just because I think mainstream popularity would provide some sort of validation of my music taste. Sure, I too had that mentality when I was a teenager, but today things are a lot more simple than that. To put it at it's most simple, I think Billy's way of doing things will give me more things to listen to than Jimmy's way, nothing more. I want wide-scale tours in venues big enough that I don't have to fight someone or pay exorbitant amounts for a ticket to get into. I want live DVDs that I can buy at a local electronics store. I want to be able to see my favorite artist on Letterman, or Leno, or SNL. I want to be able to get an official CD of a live show immediately after I see it. I want archive material. Things like this aren't usually the kind of things niche artists are able to do for their fans on a wide basis as far as I'm aware.

Let's suppose Jimmy comes out with a 10-15 track album in the next few months, and it is pretty good. What happens then? He tours after it comes out, plays a few dozen shows over a year or so if he's really behind it. Then he takes a break for a while, comes off the road and spends time with his kids for a few months before maybe starting to write for the next record (assuming it sold and the tour was a success). So during that entire 2 or 3 year period, we get 12 songs. Meanwhile, if Billy keeps up with the Teargarden plan (big if, I know), we'll get 24-36 songs from him during that same time. Maybe we get 3-4 that are really good (it's bound to happen sometime), a handful that are pretty good, a handful that are just okay, a couple that everyone is divided on, and a few stinkers. Personally, I prefer that to waiting years and years to hear 10-15 songs that may or may not be good when they finally come out.

Corgan HAS had the chance to be on the top in a place that few other bands have ever experienced. Like Pearl Jam, NIN, etc., he had his special place and time. The only difference is that many of his peers seem to understand that to some extent, and spend less time obsessing about what happened to the masses than just going merrily about their ways and letting things fall where they may. As a result bands like Pearl Jam are still chugging along at a fairly steady pace, and actually reasonably popular.

I think Pearl Jam is a good model for about where Billy/Jimmy/SP should be these days. But they're not riding around in a white van. They haven't given up on trying to sell a lot of records and be a big time band. Sure, maybe they're not as destructively consumed by success as Billy is, but they're still trying. Obviously Billy has his head in the clouds in a way that is totally unrealistic, and he needs to come down a little bit, but I'd estimate that his mentality towards things is a lot closer to the kind of thinking that has kept Pearl Jam where they are than Jimmy's is. I could get behind an argument of "Why can't Billy approach success like Pearl Jam does?" a lot more easily than "Why can't Billy approach success the way Jimmy does?"

And perhaps that's why Iha and Jimmy got off Billy's silly train. (Billy's always carried around a certain amount of silly bullshit baggage with him, but the other band members probably put up with it because they knew they were involved in a project with gravitas. Once that began to unravel, the whole force which held the band together began to unravel as well.)

I disagree here. I can't think of anybody who has even tried to go on to bigger and better things after being in a band with Billy. That may be the result of many things. Maybe working with Billy just kills your passion for music. I can buy that. But I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that people left Billy because they were seeking a chance to make music with more weight or gravitas. Considering everyone who works with Billy moves on to working on a much smaller scale (or not working at all), I think it's much more likely that it's lifestyle that's the driving factor in the decisions, and the music is secondary.

Astur
04-07-2010, 03:22 AM
I think Billy is plainly delusional. He wants to be a lifelong rock master like Bowie or Reed or whoever and he obviusly isn't at the same level. He suddenly gets very hooked up on 60's & 70's mouldy and hideously mystic bullshit dad rock and tries to impose it up everyone's anus, and if you don't like, go fuck yourself (I mean that from the Billy perspective, lol).

And he expects music critics and fans not just to take his new diarrhea garden of exploding delights "album" seriously (which, nevertheless how bad it is, it should be taken more or less seriously if only because this man wrote some of the best modern rock ever), no, he expects them to like it and love it.

Bah. Even Bowie had his Tonight and Never Let Me Down and all that 80's crap, Billy. But thinking it twice, those albums were pretty solid compared to what he forcefully feeds us nowadays.

Starla
04-07-2010, 03:24 AM
oh my God. Reading this thread makes me want to shoot myself.

redbull
04-07-2010, 03:46 AM
I think Billy is plainly delusional. He wants to be a lifelong rock master like Bowie or Reed or whoever and he obviusly isn't at the same level. He suddenly gets very hooked up on 60's & 70's mouldy and hideously mystic bullshit dad rock and tries to impose it up everyone's anus, and if you don't like, go fuck yourself (I mean that from the Billy perspective, lol).

And he expects music critics and fans not just to take his new diarrhea garden of exploding delights "album" seriously (which, nevertheless how bad it is, it should be taken more or less seriously if only because this man wrote some of the best modern rock ever), no, he expects them to like it and love it.

Bah. Even Bowie had his Tonight and Never Let Me Down and all that 80's crap, Billy. But thinking it twice, those albums were pretty solid compared to what he forcefully feeds us nowadays.


uh, never let me down is by depeche mode

Cool As Ice Cream
04-07-2010, 04:05 AM
uh, never let me down is by depeche mode

you're kidding, right? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Let_Me_Down)

Astur
04-07-2010, 04:25 AM
I hope he was. If not he's missing one of the best worst albums of all time

croPUMPKINS
04-07-2010, 05:05 AM
didn't Jimmy defend everything Billy did and supported his ideas ie. not releasing music on cd's till he left the band??

I'd want Jimmy in the band over anyone else any day, but you guys picture him here as Messiah. He also recorded American Gothic and Zwan with Bill so we really can't say he wouldn't record this new songs with him too.

redbull
04-07-2010, 05:23 AM
oh shit lol

Kahlo
04-07-2010, 05:27 AM
Probably for the best that it didn't come to mind. I like to forget about that album as well.

Kahlo
04-07-2010, 08:35 AM
I want to hear a speed metal version of that anthem

On our sepulchre of ages
Breaks the resurrection morn,
From the slough of direst slaverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry!!

The Jesus
04-07-2010, 08:42 AM
The last time I was in Serbia it was a fucking mess.

Cool As Ice Cream
04-07-2010, 09:46 AM
fuck you. go ride around in a white van for the rest of your life.

Cool As Ice Cream
04-07-2010, 09:54 AM
<img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/customavatars/avatar7141_7.gif" width="200%">

fuck you. go ride around in a white van for the rest of your life.

paranoid
04-07-2010, 10:25 AM
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not praising the virtues of Billy being obsessed with stardom just because I think mainstream popularity would provide some sort of validation of my music taste. Sure, I too had that mentality when I was a teenager, but today things are a lot more simple than that. To put it at it's most simple, I think Billy's way of doing things will give me more things to listen to than Jimmy's way, nothing more. I want wide-scale tours in venues big enough that I don't have to fight someone or pay exorbitant amounts for a ticket to get into. I want live DVDs that I can buy at a local electronics store. I want to be able to see my favorite artist on Letterman, or Leno, or SNL. I want to be able to get an official CD of a live show immediately after I see it. I want archive material. Things like this aren't usually the kind of things niche artists are able to do for their fans on a wide basis as far as I'm aware.


-the jimmy chamberlin complex tickets cost 12 bucks. the shows were extremely easy to get into. much more so than the $50-$90 pumpkins shows. a front row seat was always available.
-I highly doubt you'll see the new SP on letterman, leno, SNL.. but big deal. they played on letterman twice two years ago and it wasn't that great.
-You can buy the drum pad 20th anniversary DVD, featuring a 45 minute performance by JCC. this is also easy to find on netflix.
-maybe he'll do the live cd thing maybe he wont, but SP only started doing that last year.
-btw.. where is our fucking archive material BC and co. promised we'd be getting about a year and a half ago?

charade
04-07-2010, 11:04 AM
the way you discuss about billy we will never get any archive material... he will let us starving just because he doesn`t like us anymore...same with the zwan ex-members...he sees them as enemies, so fuck his "love"-bla bla bla...this is a fact: he doesn`t release any other zwan-songs and doesn`t play mayonaise on tours again to avoid that these people (and james) get any money from it. so it seems he cares more about this people than about fans. he even writes some songs for SP3, which were almost copies from zwan-songs just he can realize those ideas again without paying people that fraud him. if the situation is different and they would sue him if he releases and plays those songs he should explain this. but billy is to arrogant to explain things. internet is here, so he can speak everytime and maybe he has an hit-off but he prefers to talk about negative vibrations...

Mo
04-07-2010, 11:13 AM
Man, if only the quality of his current output was on par with Zwan..

tweedyburd
04-07-2010, 11:36 AM
Sometimes I kinda wonder if Billy is just trying to show how great the the last days of the original band were by producing total shit in comparison. All he talked about toward the end of the Machina era when everyone was disappointed with that album was how people would better understand what they did with that 15-20 years from now, that it would make more sense. Just 10 years later that material and concept seems genuinely inspired relative to what he's putting out now. That acoustic YouTube clip of "This Time" takes on an even larger significance in light of what's been happening these past few years.

"Some day we'll wave hello, and wish we'd never waved goodbye..."

Indeed.

Cool As Ice Cream
04-07-2010, 12:28 PM
this is a fact: he doesn`t release any other zwan-songs and doesn`t play mayonaise on tours again to avoid that these people (and james) get any money from it.

this is not a fact. he has been playing mayonaise since the reunion.

and the recordings of some of these shows have been sold on livesmashingpumpkins.com. so he's even made money off it.

Reyngel
04-07-2010, 04:16 PM
Let's suppose Jimmy comes out with a 10-15 track album in the next few months, and it is pretty good. What happens then? He tours after it comes out, plays a few dozen shows over a year or so if he's really behind it. Then he takes a break for a while, comes off the road and spends time with his kids for a few months before maybe starting to write for the next record (assuming it sold and the tour was a success). So during that entire 2 or 3 year period, we get 12 songs. Meanwhile, if Billy keeps up with the Teargarden plan (big if, I know), we'll get 24-36 songs from him during that same time. Maybe we get 3-4 that are really good (it's bound to happen sometime), a handful that are pretty good, a handful that are just okay, a couple that everyone is divided on, and a few stinkers. Personally, I prefer that to waiting years and years to hear 10-15 songs that may or may not be good when they finally come out.

.




Your perception of Billy's model, though, is very skewed by your subjective take on the quality of his recent music. According the great majority of people here, Teargarden's 44-song collection will not, in fact, have as many good songs as you seem to think it will.

Here's a more accurate projection for Teargarden's 44 songs:

-0 songs that are really good
-2 songs that are pretty good
-10 songs that are just okay
-7 songs that everyone is divided on
-25 songs that are terrible

So, 2 pretty good songs and 10 songs that are just okay, in a span of 4 years.

I'm sorry, but who the fuck would want to accept that?



Just because Billy has the means of releasing stuff and playing concerts at a more accessible rate doesn't mean that it's good. If that were the case, artists like Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga would be quality music experiences.



Jimmy may only be able to play small, remote shows and in very sparing opportunities, but I'd much, much rather gravitate toward that model than be subjected to the shallow bullshit that Billy and his parade of whores are putting out there right now.

Do I wish Billy would fix all of that? Of course. But he hasn't yet. So he doesn't deserve the benefit of a doubt. His track record over the last couple of years has been to berate his fans, cease playing any of his past catalog fans still respond to, releasing the most shallow music of his career in songs like Widow Wake My Mind, overcharge for tickets, fail at delivering for countless promises, and got rid of the guy who he said was "the only guy in the band he could trust," simply because he felt Jimmy wasn't "healthy" due to a problem he had 15 years ago.


THAT'S the shit you're expecting others to wait 4 years for and support more than the humble, drama-free road that Jimmy's on?


Give me a fucking break.

zbeast78
04-07-2010, 04:44 PM
http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/billy/billy099.jpg
when billy cared about making good music


http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/mb/bravo_a_list_awards_arrivals_6_060409/billy_corgan_2361498.jpg
now where he just cares about status.

BINGO! here's the point Corganist keeps missing. Who cares about how easily accessibly someone's art is, if it sucks? Who cares if Artist A is on Letterman if he's playing songs like "Baby, Let's Rock!"? The reason there is such a backlash against Billy Corgan is not because he's making a complete ass of himself and releasing painfully bad music... it's because we still know that he has the ability to still be relevant, but chooses to be Jon Gosselin.

Corganist
04-07-2010, 06:19 PM
Your perception of Billy's model, though, is very skewed by your subjective take on the quality of his recent music. According the great majority of people here, Teargarden's 44-song collection will not, in fact, have as many good songs as you seem to think it will.

Here's a more accurate projection for Teargarden's 44 songs:

-0 songs that are really good
-2 songs that are pretty good
-10 songs that are just okay
-7 songs that everyone is divided on
-25 songs that are terrible

So, 2 pretty good songs and 10 songs that are just okay, in a span of 4 years.

I'm sorry, but who the fuck would want to accept that?

Sorry, I think you're the one who letting his take on Billy's recent output skew things. I don't think that it's giving the guy too much credit to think that out of a couple two or three dozen songs we'll get over the next 2 or 3 years, we'll get 3 or 4 that everyone can agree are good and maybe at least 6-12 more that a lot of people think are good. If anything, I think that's a conservative estimate. The guy has never, even in his worst periods, put out albums or projects that where over half of it was considered "terrible." Almost everyone here has usually found something to like out of each era. Sure, Teargarden isn't off to a great start, but I don't think you can write the guy off completely for the next 4 years based on 3 mediocre songs he recorded months ago now.

Jimmy may only be able to play small, remote shows and in very sparing opportunities, but I'd much, much rather gravitate toward that model than be subjected to the shallow bullshit that Billy and his parade of whores are putting out there right now.

Do I wish Billy would fix all of that? Of course. But he hasn't yet. So he doesn't deserve the benefit of a doubt. His track record over the last couple of years has been to berate his fans, cease playing any of his past catalog fans still respond to, releasing the most shallow music of his career in songs like Widow Wake My Mind, overcharge for tickets, fail at delivering for countless promises, and got rid of the guy who he said was "the only guy in the band he could trust," simply because he felt Jimmy wasn't "healthy" due to a problem he had 15 years ago.

I only see one, maybe two, real complaints in there that can be construed as actually relating to music. Most of that rant sounds like personal reasons not to be the guy's friend anymore, as though Billy's personally wronged you. For someone who claims to not give him the benefit of the doubt, it's kinda strange that you hold him to his word on so many things (like his bullshit "I'm not going to play old songs" routine) and then take it so personally when he flakes. It's fine to not dig what Billy's up to right now and just not care about what he's up to musically. If you don't think he's got any more in the tank, then by all means there's no reason to stick around. But if you do think he's got more good songs in him, and that all he needs to do is get his head on straight, then none of that other bullshit should matter.

Corganist
04-07-2010, 06:33 PM
BINGO! here's the point Corganist keeps missing. Who cares about how easily accessibly someone's art is, if it sucks? Who cares if Artist A is on Letterman if he's playing songs like "Baby, Let's Rock!"? The reason there is such a backlash against Billy Corgan is not because he's making a complete ass of himself and releasing painfully bad music... it's because we still know that he has the ability to still be relevant, but chooses to be Jon Gosselin.

The bad music problem can be fixed without him having to give up his drive for stardom. Billy made great music in the 90s while being just as much a fame whore, if not moreso, than he is now; so obviously the fame whoring is not and never has been the problem.

And really, let's not lose sight of the fact that what we're really talking about here is Jimmy's attitude, not Billy's. I don't see how you guys can keep matter of factly talking about how Billy just doesn't care about music nowadays as much as he used to and then defend the things Jimmy says in the same breath. Billy's not the one saying music is a small part of people's lives. Billy's not the one saying he hated the 90s because people thought music was so important back then. Billy's not the one who doesn't see the point in painstakingly recording music anymore. Billy's not the one who says that music doesn't move the needle for him anymore.

Catherine Wheel
04-07-2010, 06:34 PM
If you accept that Billy is a narcissist then most of what he does and says makes perfect sense. The only difference is that now he's become a self-destructive narcissist whereas 15 years ago it at least wasn't affecting his professional life.

paranoid
04-07-2010, 06:54 PM
Billy's not the one saying music is a small part of people's lives. Billy's not the one saying he hated the 90s because people thought music was so important back then. Billy's not the one who doesn't see the point in painstakingly recording music anymore. Billy's not the one who says that music doesn't move the needle for him anymore.

way to take jim's quotes out of context.

A) Billy has insinuated many, many times that 'music' is a small part of peoples lives. he's said music itself can't sell itself.
B) Billy has said numerous times it's pointless to record a record when people only half heartedly care about the two singles and don't give a fuck about the rest.
C) Jimmy saying 'it doesn't move the needle that much' was in relation to no longer being in the pumpkins. 'it's a few gold records and a bunch of money (being in the pumpkins).. it doesn't move the needle ahead that much.' meaning he'd be happier making less money while doing music he loves and at the same time advancing his own playing. he's said several times at the previous clinics that being in a rock band, he had little to no time to practice his craft, because his hours were spent playing the same rock songs every night. I really feel he's out grown the pumpkins musically and it's time for him to be doing his own thing. You want to give him shit for taking a year to figure what his own thing may be, while spending the time with his wife and kids he lost while being on the road non stop for nearly two years.. well by all means continue being a dip shit.

also, at the rate billy is releasing these songs, we'll be getting about 6-7 a year. So far 2 of them suck and one of them is ok. 1 good song out of the past 5 or so months. I'd rather get a full 12 songs at once, and wait another 2 or so years for jimmy to churn out another record. it takes a long time to make a great record. it takes radiohead 3-4 years between records, most of them 10 songs long, and every fucking time it's worth it. so far bill's new model of giving his all to the individual songs hasn't worked in the songs favor. he seems to be phoning in these recordings thus far. I'd rather he hide out for a year or two, organize his shit, record 12 of his best songs, painstakingly, and finally put out a high quality piece of work. Looks like we'll have to wait for this teargarden project to finish before we can see that kind of effort happen again.

redbull
04-08-2010, 12:03 AM
way to take jim's quotes out of context.

A) Billy has insinuated many, many times that 'music' is a small part of peoples lives. he's said music itself can't sell itself.
B) Billy has said numerous times it's pointless to record a record when people only half heartedly care about the two singles and don't give a fuck about the rest.
C) Jimmy saying 'it doesn't move the needle that much' was in relation to no longer being in the pumpkins. 'it's a few gold records and a bunch of money (being in the pumpkins).. it doesn't move the needle ahead that much.' meaning he'd be happier making less money while doing music he loves and at the same time advancing his own playing. he's said several times at the previous clinics that being in a rock band, he had little to no time to practice his craft, because his hours were spent playing the same rock songs every night. I really feel he's out grown the pumpkins musically and it's time for him to be doing his own thing. You want to give him shit for taking a year to figure what his own thing may be, while spending the time with his wife and kids he lost while being on the road non stop for nearly two years.. well by all means continue being a dip shit.

also, at the rate billy is releasing these songs, we'll be getting about 6-7 a year. So far 2 of them suck and one of them is ok. 1 good song out of the past 5 or so months. I'd rather get a full 12 songs at once, and wait another 2 or so years for jimmy to churn out another record. it takes a long time to make a great record. it takes radiohead 3-4 years between records, most of them 10 songs long, and every fucking time it's worth it. so far bill's new model of giving his all to the individual songs hasn't worked in the songs favor. he seems to be phoning in these recordings thus far. I'd rather he hide out for a year or two, organize his shit, record 12 of his best songs, painstakingly, and finally put out a high quality piece of work. Looks like we'll have to wait for this teargarden project to finish before we can see that kind of effort happen again.


R-WORD NOT ALLOWED; THREAD DERAILED

redbull
04-08-2010, 12:04 AM
TAKE THE MONEY AND RUN VS RAT IN A CAGE WHICH IS BETTER

exactlythesame
04-08-2010, 01:16 AM
uh, never let me down is by depeche mode

never let me down again is by depeche mode

you stand doubly corrected

redbull
04-08-2010, 01:47 AM
i suck dix

Cool As Ice Cream
04-08-2010, 02:46 AM
i know

redbull
04-08-2010, 03:25 AM
lol

zbeast78
04-08-2010, 07:19 AM
The bad music problem can be fixed without him having to give up his drive for stardom. Billy made great music in the 90s while being just as much a fame whore, if not moreso, than he is now; so obviously the fame whoring is not and never has been the problem.

And really, let's not lose sight of the fact that what we're really talking about here is Jimmy's attitude, not Billy's. I don't see how you guys can keep matter of factly talking about how Billy just doesn't care about music nowadays as much as he used to and then defend the things Jimmy says in the same breath. Billy's not the one saying music is a small part of people's lives. Billy's not the one saying he hated the 90s because people thought music was so important back then. Billy's not the one who doesn't see the point in painstakingly recording music anymore. Billy's not the one who says that music doesn't move the needle for him anymore.

I appreciate Jimmy for his contribution to the Pumpkins for all of those years. But beyond that, I don't really care too much about anything he does post-Pumpkins. Billy was always the Pumpkins, and he's the reason everyone is here. But it's not a crime for fans to be extremely frustrated with his shenanigans. Just look at his track record the past 10 years; HE broke up the Pumpkins (then blamed James for it several years later), wrote a lot of solid songs with Zwan and proceeded to release a garbage album, finished a cool project based on songs he wrote about Chicago and then abruptly abandoned it, released a solo album and then sabotaged any chance of it succeeding by taking out that embarrassing 1 page ad in the paper "guess what, everyone! The Pumpkins are back! Get ready to embrace me again!", re-formed the Pumpkins under a shroud of secrecy to keep the fact that half the band wasn't even asked to be a part of it (which of course later he had a Billy's delusional world version of, where he left this inviting door open that they chose not to enter), acted like such a bitter whiny bitch on the anniversary tour that it literally sounded like it was uncomfortable to be in the arena (which I think has something to do with Jimmy finally losing interest also), and then of course having a total bs story about the events of Jimmy's departure a full year later... and all the while leaving a trail of intriguing ideas discarded (Gish Box Set, Archive service, etc). We all know that Teagarden will be scrapped well before it's finished. The only thing you can count on with Billy is that he won't follow through. Again, the only reason people are still frustrated with him and still seem to care is because he's written a ton of good songs during this time (a lot of which still haven't seen the light of day - which might be a good thing, now that i think of it).

I will say that I appreciate your attitude Corganist. This board would suck if it were all haters. There has to be at least one person on here who says "what are you guys talking about? The Pumpkins are better than ever. Teagarden rox."

New Art Rioter
04-08-2010, 03:50 PM
Don't forget D'Arcy being great at sensing if something was good or bad (and not being afraid to tell Corgan). Also, James being fantastic at complimenting Billy's guitar playing. Smaller, but still really important factors

Araneae
04-08-2010, 04:12 PM
I think their image as a whole played a big part in people liking them as well. It was one of the few bands were fans took an active interest in the rest of the band and where Billy was oftentimes not their "favorite" person in the band (he lost a couple of polls to James during mcis).

Fact is that there were several factors that made SP what it was. You can even argue that their record label helped make them huge too. That is why it is ridiculous and an absolute fallacy for people to say that "SP is Billy" or that he would have been famous without them, he was just one piece of the puzzle that was made whole my the sum of its parts.

Space Girl 1979
04-08-2010, 05:06 PM
Don't forget D'Arcy being great at sensing if something was good or bad (and not being afraid to tell Corgan). Also, James being fantastic at complimenting Billy's guitar playing. Smaller, but still really important factors

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. YES!

eOH YEASH!

YEAH.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/screenshots/132996d1266979973-funny-strange-random-pics-cum.gif

That's what I 'm talking about!

jimmy drevpile
04-08-2010, 06:30 PM
Billy was always the Pumpkins, and he's the reason everyone is here.

Wrong

Catherine Wheel
04-08-2010, 06:54 PM
Billy has the annoying habit of putting songs that he did all by himself on SP albums.( Stumbeline, We Only Come Out At Night, Mellon Collie, Sweet Sweet ) Thats what leads people to believe that he is the band. But really I think James defines the band almost as much as Billy.

Reyngel
04-08-2010, 10:21 PM
Billy has the annoying habit of putting songs that he did all by himself on SP albums.( Stumbeline, We Only Come Out At Night, Mellon Collie, Sweet Sweet ) Thats what leads people to believe that he is the band. But really I think James defines the band almost as much as Billy.




As far as the SP in its purest sense, I agree. I'd also say that Jimmy, of course, means as much as Billy.


At the end of the day, SP's most meaningful definition of itself is actually more than its individual parts. SP is more about the music than it is any one individual. But it just so happens that the best music they ever put out had Billy, Jimmy and James involved.

daevil1
04-08-2010, 10:22 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.twitvid.com/player/7Y1QF"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.twitvid.com/player/7Y1QF" quality="high" allowscriptaccess="always" allowNetworking="all" allowfullscreen="true" wmode="transparent" height="344" width="425"></object>

Catherine Wheel
04-08-2010, 10:32 PM
Billy didn't have Jimmy in mind when he created the Smashing Pumpkins. The only other person he really had in mind was James and arguably Ron Roesing. Jimmy isn't really essential. He does bring something distinctive to the band but he's not essential like James.

Space Girl 1979
04-08-2010, 11:01 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.twitvid.com/player/7Y1QF"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.twitvid.com/player/7Y1QF" quality="high" allowscriptaccess="always" allowNetworking="all" allowfullscreen="true" wmode="transparent" height="344" width="425"></object>

THERE'S SO MUCH RIGHT about this video.

a) Billy having to rehearse Today (really billy? really?)
b) Billy unable to hit the high notes
c) Billy fucking up in the middle (really billy?)
d) Fart noise through out!
e) Children!
f) Girl givin' the horn the ol' in an' out at the end
g) ending with the woman saying "not really"

PRINT IT TO DVD, put it in a wooden box... THEY'LL SELL MILLIONS!

Shallowed
04-08-2010, 11:18 PM
________________________________________________ht tp://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/screenshots/132996d1266979973-funny-strange-random-pics-cum.gif

<a href="http://s416.photobucket.com/albums/pp246/PastaofMuppets/?action=view&current=avatar23298_1-1.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp246/PastaofMuppets/avatar23298_1-1.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket" HEIGHT="300", WIDTH="300"></a>

vbshlofbvgos
04-09-2010, 12:34 AM
thats the greatest post you've ever made

paranoid
04-09-2010, 02:38 AM
Goddamn. Billy should be very happy to have managed to make millions with that terrible voice of his.

This x 10

Astur
04-09-2010, 03:36 AM
THERE'S SO MUCH RIGHT about this video.

a) Billy having to rehearse Today (really billy? really?)
b) Billy unable to hit the high notes
c) Billy fucking up in the middle (really billy?)
d) Fart noise through out!
e) Children!
f) Girl givin' the horn the ol' in an' out at the end
g) ending with the woman saying "not really"

PRINT IT TO DVD, put it in a wooden box... THEY'LL SELL MILLIONS!

He's playing it from Ultimate Guitar

Shallowed
04-09-2010, 09:54 AM
thats the greatest post you've ever made

I've climaxed.

charade
04-09-2010, 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by daevil1 View Post


this is a fart porn...

I would shoot these kids if they would fart against my music.
now I can imagine easily how billy would look like in the nursing home...
singing "today" while the doctor probes him... or while sasha gray gives him a blowjob...

we should close this board and all myspace-pumpkins-fansites and then billy wouldn`t get any attention anymore... this has nothing to do with art aand music, he makes a fucking circus out of the pumpkins.

zbeast78
04-09-2010, 04:49 PM
Wrong

I think you're missing the point. I'm not saying he IS the entire band and the only reason anyone ever liked them, and that Jimmy James & D'arcy were disposable. I'm only saying that he is the main creative force behind the band, and that is why people are frustrated that he now sucks (even though it seems to people that he doesn't have to suck, he just chooses to).

Please don't mistake me for that vocal minority of people who say "the rest of the band members were traitors! Billy WAS THE WHOLE BAND, man. He recorded a rack of songs by himself!" The Smashing Pumpkins are definitely a group. But do you really think they would be tight right now if Billy had gotten the whole gang back together for Zeitgeist? Yes, it might have been better received from a PR standpoint, but it would have sounded exactly the same. Billy still always did what Billy wanted, and that's my point. MCIS is the last album where Billy did not have total and complete creative control... and it's been slowly downhill ever since.

nofix
04-09-2010, 05:34 PM
i want to stroke billy off while he plays that for me live. those kids, i would bash their heads in if they did that shit to destroy auditory brilliance.

Space Girl 1979
04-09-2010, 07:23 PM
MCIS is the last album where Billy did not have total and complete creative control... and it's been slowly downhill ever since.

Seriously. Someone put Billy on a leash and spank him hard. :banging:

Corganist
04-09-2010, 07:45 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.twitvid.com/player/7Y1QF"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.twitvid.com/player/7Y1QF" quality="high" allowscriptaccess="always" allowNetworking="all" allowfullscreen="true" wmode="transparent" height="344" width="425"></object>

Well, well, well. Things aren't looking too good for that "Billy won't play old songs anymore" complaint.

Space Girl 1979
04-09-2010, 08:25 PM
Well, well, well. Things aren't looking too good for that "Billy won't play old songs anymore" complaint.

http://bokertov.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/11/al_gore_smug.jpg