View Full Version : i'm listening to zeitgeist for masochistic reasons


Caine Walker
09-29-2009, 03:06 PM
:mad:

samuel redman
09-29-2009, 03:11 PM
i listen to Zeitgeist a lot. It's really good.

Dogfighter28
09-29-2009, 03:22 PM
redman I am extremely disappointed in you. I wanted nothing more than to take you under my wing but this is the last straw.

samuel redman
09-29-2009, 03:23 PM
i guess

Caine Walker
09-29-2009, 03:26 PM
shut the fuck up, byron.

Dogfighter28
09-29-2009, 03:28 PM
damn i missed my 5k post partee

samuel redman
09-29-2009, 03:33 PM
no one car

Caine Walker
09-29-2009, 03:35 PM
ha!

Caine Walker
09-29-2009, 03:37 PM
mm. neverlost really isn't a bad song.

Dogfighter28
09-29-2009, 03:40 PM
i tried to sit through zeitgeist about 2 months ago. i was going through a SP kick and I ever liked Machina a lot while listening to it. I was pumped for the big Z, but about 4 songs in I felt physically sick.

and redman, there is still hope. if you wish to become a member of the board elite repent now.

Dogfighter28
09-29-2009, 03:41 PM
del

samuel redman
09-29-2009, 03:47 PM
i'm just a Pumpkins fan, Byron

Gossamer
09-29-2009, 04:22 PM
Yeah but Zeigeist sucks.

I'd rather listen to Zwan.

Forgotten Child
09-29-2009, 04:40 PM
neverlost is the best song from Z.

ciGarski
09-29-2009, 04:47 PM
i tried to sit through zeitgeist about 2 months ago. i was going through a SP kick and I ever liked Machina a lot while listening to it. I was pumped for the big Z, but about 4 songs in I felt physically sick.

and redman, there is still hope. if you wish to become a member of the board elite repent now.

does anyone have a copy of this kid's review of zeitgeist?

Dogfighter28
09-29-2009, 06:29 PM
Here's my second one

Nothing much has changed in the seven years since The Smashing Pumpkins broke up. Billy Corgan still cannot transfer a good song idea from live performance to studio to save his life. The terrible production that plagued Machina returns, but in a different form. While the guitars on that album were processed to death, Zeitgeist suffers from carelessly mixed vocals and drums. Instead of employing backup singers, Corgan overdubs his voice dramatically, leading to arrangements that overpower any worth the songs on Zeitgeist have in concert. Still, there are moments of hope and even enjoyment on this comeback album. The first half of the album contains uniformly pleasant songs that are marred by terrible production, but "Bleeding the Orchid" and "United States" manage to shine through as examples of Corgan's craft. The latter contains a drum and guitar breakdown that will leave you breathless. The second half of the album contains some cringeworthy songs, most notably the terrible "Pomp and Cirumstances". This album held promise in my heart since I heard the bootleg of their first show back in seven years, but until The Smashing Pumpkins get a producer in the vein of Butch Vig or Flood to produce an album in full, fans will be restricted to catching glimpses of light through Corgan's visionary muck.

And I've sort of flipped flop from that even. United States is gay.

Floppy Nono
09-29-2009, 07:08 PM
neverlost sucks idk why people like it so much. does anyone like try try try? i feel the same animosity towards that song.

Caine Walker
09-29-2009, 09:29 PM
neverlost sucks idk why people like it so much.

because it's actually kinda good.

Ugly
09-29-2009, 09:30 PM
"Neverlost" = not a fan. I think "Pomp and Circumstances" has the best guitar solo Corgan has put down in a decade.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 09:35 PM
fuck me iäm going to have to listen to this record. the futureembrace is looming in the back of my head as is the zwan debut.

ciGarski
09-29-2009, 10:11 PM
Here's my second one

Nothing much has changed in the seven years since The Smashing Pumpkins broke up. Billy Corgan still cannot transfer a good song idea from live performance to studio to save his life. The terrible production that plagued Machina returns, but in a different form. While the guitars on that album were processed to death, Zeitgeist suffers from carelessly mixed vocals and drums. Instead of employing backup singers, Corgan overdubs his voice dramatically, leading to arrangements that overpower any worth the songs on Zeitgeist have in concert. Still, there are moments of hope and even enjoyment on this comeback album. The first half of the album contains uniformly pleasant songs that are marred by terrible production, but "Bleeding the Orchid" and "United States" manage to shine through as examples of Corgan's craft. The latter contains a drum and guitar breakdown that will leave you breathless. The second half of the album contains some cringeworthy songs, most notably the terrible "Pomp and Cirumstances". This album held promise in my heart since I heard the bootleg of their first show back in seven years, but until The Smashing Pumpkins get a producer in the vein of Butch Vig or Flood to produce an album in full, fans will be restricted to catching glimpses of light through Corgan's visionary muck.

And I've sort of flipped flop from that even. United States is gay.

but its the first one that makes your opinion a joke :(

Dogfighter28
09-29-2009, 10:15 PM
Have your opinions never changed brah? I know five years ago I was listening to boring white bread indie rock and I won't touch that shit now. Having an album fall out of grace with your ears isn't that monumental an event.

ciGarski
09-29-2009, 10:21 PM
i'm just breakin your balls brah

Caine Walker
09-29-2009, 10:25 PM
Having an album fall out of grace with your ears isn't that monumental an event.
i disagree.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:30 PM
doomsday clock sounds ok

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:30 PM
the billy choruses are a bit odd

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:31 PM
the bridge seems disjointed from the rest of the song. lazy songwriting

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:38 PM
man these songs are just as exhausting as the machina stuff. there's nothing for the ears to hold on to

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:39 PM
more weird billy choruses on bleeding the orchid and the dreaded quiver delivery in the vocals which got an even more prominent position in the chris isaak hour performances (and i suppose elvsewhere as well)

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:40 PM
still this music is just as frustrating as billy other work during the last decade. you hear and sense snippets of brilliance here and there but it's just too diluted by shit to have any real impact or intrigue you to listen again.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:43 PM
that's the way my love is has that kiddy fiddler vibe of song slike try,try,try and it reminds me of michael jackson.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:46 PM
tarantula sounds like it's composed of three or four different parts that doesn't really fit together but sound decent on their own. some cool stuff wasted. more cringeworthy love stuff

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:50 PM
starz sounds like more sludge mixed up with some freakish 7 dwarfs chorus work. is this is good song? i can't decide there is some cool stuff here.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:57 PM
united states has some moments were i think it sounds good but then it just goes bad again. why is life like this

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 10:58 PM
art rock segment of the united states song sounds like a studio experiment that should have been heavily edited before release.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:00 PM
it's amazing to me that billy thought this material was good enough to partly base a reunion tour on.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:01 PM
sheeeeeeiiiit united states is loooong and i've got more than half of the songs to go

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:04 PM
sorry about this but i have to get it out of my system i've been afraid to listen to this record because it might suck and it would make me depressed in a place where i was very depressed to begin with.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:05 PM
death from above sounds like 80's hair metal.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:06 PM
i see billy dressed as a viking striding along with the waves a beach and in the background i see a viking ship. this is not good imagery to get from a song.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:07 PM
this is too much i'm taking a break

Ugly
09-29-2009, 11:14 PM
Yeah, I need one too after reading all that.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:17 PM
relistened to starz. it's a bad song but stuck out and therefore made me think that it might be good.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:18 PM
lot's of standard issue jimmy drumming. this drumming is fucking annoying when it's not accompanied by good music otherwise.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:20 PM
noo i accidentally listened to a version of the album with bonus tracks.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:22 PM
neverlost feels like a welcome break from the other stuff and it doesn't sound half bad.

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:36 PM
ljklj

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:39 PM
steallar has some good guitar soundz. maybe my favourite track so far. i'm dissapointed as usal

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:41 PM
god damn it billy why did you let me down again

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:42 PM
ma belle sucks i think

dean_r_koontz
09-29-2009, 11:43 PM
hodgepodge is a word that comes to mind when i hear ma belle. no hope

Rickpat12
09-30-2009, 12:02 AM
Are you in a post war with someone?

dean_r_koontz
09-30-2009, 12:03 AM
zeitgeist the song was surprisingly enough an accoustic number that didn't really jump out at me. from first listen i would say the decent tracks are doomsday clock, 7 shades of black, neverlost and maybe stellar. very dissapointed with the record as always when it comes to billy cormacs post mcis material. why is life this way. why do we have to grow old and lose our abilities. why can't things be the way they are forever when they're good and be over quickly when they're bad. there is no point to anything

Dogfighter28
09-30-2009, 12:14 AM
i usually enjoy saying that a boarder is bottoming out

but koontz good sir i do say, tonight you are topping out.

Caine Walker
09-30-2009, 07:22 AM
he did what i wanted to do, but i didn't have time to do it.

OwenWilsonsNose
09-30-2009, 08:05 AM
i usually enjoy saying that a boarder is bottoming out

but koontz good sir i do say, tonight you are topping out.

He's trying to get to 10,000 posts at the speed of light. He's going faster than that from what ive seen lately.

Sonic Johnny
09-30-2009, 08:54 AM
i listened to it recently for the first time in over a year. Still not much good about it except for the solo in Bring The Light making me pull faces.

hnibos
09-30-2009, 11:10 AM
mcis is overrated nowadays

Trotskilicious
09-30-2009, 11:31 AM
dogfucker will you stop talking about boarding

House of Bread
09-30-2009, 11:50 AM
I'm going to try to listen to Zeitgeist today.

Boots Electric
09-30-2009, 12:39 PM
shut the fuck up

samuel redman
09-30-2009, 01:33 PM
i agree with you

slunken
09-30-2009, 02:28 PM
rock on

Eulogy
09-30-2009, 03:13 PM
i was listening to stellar for the first time in a long time and then this thread made me think about zeitgeist

np: doomsday clock

Stellar is undeniably awesome. As are That's The Way, Neverlost, and Zeitgeist

I can find bright spots in other places but I could never argue for them.

Eulogy
09-30-2009, 03:42 PM
united states is still pretty rockin' actually

New Art Rioter
09-30-2009, 03:46 PM
7 Shades is good too. You pretty much nailed it with your song selection though

wHATcOLOR
09-30-2009, 05:19 PM
when this came out i bought two copies, one for my brother to give as a gift. it's still sitting in a box of things in my house, i felt it was not right to give as a gift a cd that i felt really really sucked

wHATcOLOR
09-30-2009, 05:36 PM
del double post

Trotskilicious
10-01-2009, 10:44 AM
It must be a really sad state of being that someone first of all has 10,000 posts. A sad state that someone really cares how many posts they or anyone else has. A sad state that 99% of posts contain no intelligent reasoning. Just post to get to a number. I have more posts than you. I am a bigger SP fan than you. I can bitch more than you. I honestly feel sorry for most of you. Really.

only person that cares is you

Trotskilicious
10-01-2009, 01:36 PM
gosh i really want you to respect me too

Trotskilicious
10-01-2009, 01:37 PM
Couldn't have responded at a better time Trot....perfect example...40,000 posts!! And nothing to say. If it takes you one minute per post....that is 666 hours or 28 days straight(24 hours a day) of your sad, pathetic life....that you have spent writing, and contributing absolutely nothing. Great timing :)

by the way you're not insulting me, i know you think you're really gonna make me crack with this but

http://forums.netphoria.org/general-chat-message-board/168421-40-000-a.html

the only person who cares about post count is you

samuel redman
10-01-2009, 01:44 PM
40,000 posts looks cool though

D.
10-01-2009, 01:50 PM
Z tracks I can still listen to: Doomsday Clock, 7 Shades of Black, That's the Way, Tarantula, United States, and Bring the Light

Z tracks I could hear a few more times: Bleeding the Orchid & For God and Country

Z tracks I would rather forget: Starz, Neverlost, Come On Let's Go, and Pomp

as for the b-sides, I've listened to most of them probably like, once.

Astur
10-01-2009, 01:58 PM
It seems strange to me not to hear more mentions to "Bleeding the Orchid", very Melloncolliesque. It's the only reason I give the album a spin now and then. That and "Bring the Light".

Dogfighter28
10-01-2009, 02:47 PM
Leave the boards please ^

Trotskilicious
10-01-2009, 04:11 PM
Trot.....one entire month of your life....24 hours a day for a month.... How do you spell loser????? One entire month of your life....posting....in...here.....spells.....loser.

um did you look at that thread

i really don't care, i already know. so what are you going to do now?

vanitycrieswhy
10-01-2009, 04:45 PM
"starz sounds like more sludge mixed up with some freakish 7 dwarfs chorus work. is this is good song? i can't decide there is some cool stuff here." - couldn't put it better myself. very confusing

Neverlost - most listenable, likeable song on the album

Bleeding the orchid - sounds like billy singing a morose Alice n chains song. the whole heavy plodding affair is stuck somwhere in 1993...

Gossamer
10-01-2009, 05:29 PM
The thing is the music on Zeitgeist is great, the guitar, the drums, the actual songs are awesome.

Bleeding The Orchid is beautiful and Doomsday Clock rocks, HOWEVER Billy's vocals are garbage.
He has zero emotion in his voice and some of his lyrics are incredibly dumb and uninspired.

If he would've taken more time to work on the vocals or write lyrics that he actually cares about singing, OR just turn those vocals down in the mix, this album would have been really good.

It's a shame really.

sniffingchimp
10-02-2009, 04:55 AM
The songs on Zeitgeist are just below the par of Machina, but with even worse production.

Thats the Way, Bleeding the Orchid, Seven Shades are decent.

And Stellar is pretty awesome, most original thing they recorded in these sessions.

And hire some fucking back-up vocalists.

davin
10-02-2009, 07:24 AM
The thing is the music on Zeitgeist is great, the guitar, the drums, the actual songs are awesome.

Bleeding The Orchid is beautiful and Doomsday Clock rocks, HOWEVER Billy's vocals are garbage.
He has zero emotion in his voice and some of his lyrics are incredibly dumb and uninspired.

If he would've taken more time to work on the vocals or write lyrics that he actually cares about singing, OR just turn those vocals down in the mix, this album would have been really good.

It's a shame really.

judging by your screenname you don't subscribe to the zero vocal emotion belief when it comes to the live shows, right? because if anything, it was some of the older material (soma, mayo, disarm) that lacked emotion compared to the Zeitgeist-era material (including Gossamer) during the 07 and 08 live shows.

overall i still find the vocal criticizms very flimsy. they're different than anything we've heard on an SP record, so people freak out. omg, fresh tactics. scary. its a production choice just as much as what Vig did on SD with the vocals was a production choice -- neither sound the same as real live vocals. you just prefer one set of effects to the other. and even so, i don't see how that nullifies the good qualities of the songs you pointed out.

and i honestly think lyrically Z is on par with the Machinas. In that there's nothing as bad as stuff on TFE or Baby Lets Rock. Even COLG has some cool versuses in between the simplistic chorus.

And hire some fucking back-up vocalists.

listen to anythign else RTB has produced. layered vocals are his thing.

sniffingchimp
10-02-2009, 08:21 AM
[color=#ffff60]because if anything, it was some of the older material (soma, mayo, disarm) that lacked emotion compared to the Zeitgeist-era material (including Gossamer) during the 07 and 08 live shows.



Agreed, at no point (bar maybe the Grand Rex show) did he actually seem to enjoy playing old songs.

deadaswarhol
10-02-2009, 10:16 AM
dogfucker will you stop talking about boarding

<dafsdf>

Trotskilicious
10-02-2009, 11:29 AM
Trot....the fact alone that you don't care that you have spent more than a month....24 hours a day....of your pathetic life...posting in here is a tribute to your character and lack of any life at all. The fact that you can not see that...and look inside yourself....and actually see how really pathetic that is....and possibly recognize that spending a month of your life posting in here....might be a sign of a serious problem.....then just keep posting mindless junk. Over and over.....

what's this stuff...........about "one month 24 hours a day,"....that you....keep repeating...... i might be a loser but it seems......you have....brain......damage.

now go.................. out there....and win....at life.......you great big......stud

T&T
10-02-2009, 12:21 PM
sexxxxxxy!


post your cocks. who's got the biggest?

reprise85
10-02-2009, 12:58 PM
this thread is making me laugh. i just abstained from netphoria for a few days and i actually came back to something worth reading. good job guys.

waltermcphilp
10-02-2009, 01:34 PM
sexxxxxxy!


post your cocks. who's got the biggest?

i read that as "clocks"

i was like WTF?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Wall_clock.jpg/300px-Wall_clock.jpg

Dogfighter28
10-02-2009, 03:16 PM
Great boarding, bro.

Trotskilicious
10-02-2009, 03:22 PM
volunteer lol

hard work for no pay makes you a winner

hnibos
10-02-2009, 03:24 PM
altruism is not to be looked down upon

Trotskilicious
10-02-2009, 03:32 PM
there's no such thing as altruism. it's all about self-flattery.

maybe you need to go out and volunteer so you stop whining so much.

slunken
10-02-2009, 04:56 PM
"all hands on dick"

samuel redman
10-04-2009, 09:35 PM
im beginning volunteer work

Dogfighter28
10-05-2009, 12:11 AM
*whoosh*

redbull
10-05-2009, 12:54 AM
hey guys who wants to come fist my daughter

hnibos
10-05-2009, 09:15 AM
there's no such thing as altruism. it's all about self-flattery.

maybe you need to go out and volunteer so you stop whining so much.

nobody here whines as much as you do

Eulogy
10-05-2009, 09:24 AM
Trot.

davin
10-05-2009, 05:53 PM
Agreed, at no point (bar maybe the Grand Rex show) did he actually seem to enjoy playing old songs.

well i wasn't saying he didn't enjoy playing any of the old songs...but some definitely were uninspired at times. like Mayo in europe early 08, Disarm during the 07 summer festivals (though oddly, some of these same shows had awesome versions of BWBW), and Soma at times in 08 seemed that way, compared to how he used to sing them.

but on the other hand Hummer was awesome all through 07 and the residencies. so was Siva and most of the other 20th anniversary tour old song choices. Same with Shame, Rocket (when played), Winterlong....and all the Machina stuff, though maybe some of you don't count that because thats the newest of the old material (and therefore closer to his current mindset, like the Z material). and yea, at Paris and the early 07 europeaon club shows everything pretty much sounded kickass imo. Silverfuck and 33 at Paris were awe inspiring.

Trotskilicious
10-05-2009, 10:59 PM
nobody here whines as much as you do

i think you need to review your posts

Trotskilicious
10-05-2009, 10:59 PM
Trot.

sup

Trotskilicious
10-06-2009, 08:25 AM
i think it's more important to do public service as a career rather than a few days a month/year so you can feel good about yourself

dassvenster
10-06-2009, 02:27 PM
What I don't really get is why Starz is so amazing and the rest is so...stock..

Kahlo
10-06-2009, 04:51 PM
Your quote. Don't try to save face.

Shut the fuck up. Go to the O-board so I can ban you from there.

samuel redman
10-06-2009, 04:53 PM
whats is your name on the oboard kahlo

Kahlo
10-06-2009, 04:54 PM
Machinist

I'm slowly forcing all the other Mods to quit.

Trotskilicious
10-07-2009, 10:22 AM
you know i'd say you're behaving like a typical netphorian right now

Caine Walker
10-07-2009, 10:58 AM
And what would be your reason for being so angry Kahlo? Not getting enough attention so you had to jump in with your intelligent conversation? You are the one that everytime you write something...you show your lack of intelligence and basically add nothing to any conversation. Just chime in to get attention.

oh shut the fuck uuuuuuuuuuuup. good loooord. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

slunken
10-07-2009, 05:31 PM
Pox is the best song on AG

Caine Walker
10-07-2009, 11:06 PM
angry?

who's angry?

Trotskilicious
10-08-2009, 12:15 AM
FUCK YOU I'M NOT ANGRY

Run To Me
02-07-2015, 01:54 AM
still this music is just as frustrating as billy other work during the last decade. you hear and sense snippets of brilliance here and there but it's just too diluted by shit to have any real impact or intrigue you to listen again.

I now think about the title of this (great) thread whenever I try to listen to zeitgeist. For those that can get past the production, how? I'd appreciate advice on appreciating this record.

Or we can shit on it some more together.

Ram27
02-07-2015, 07:52 AM
It's frustrating how much better it could be if they literally just turned down the vocals a coupe dB

Or if Doomsday Clock sounded like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri7M8dJYlk8), Stellar was on the album, Billy didn't piss off James and he was playing on the album....it could be a return to form, and/or at least better that MSOTS.

But if Billy tracklisted MSTOS properly, and wasn't such a jackass to piss off the other guitarists, maybe that would've kept going...


fuck u billy

Elphenor
02-07-2015, 08:55 AM
If ZG wasn't awful maybe it could have been not awful

Ram27
02-07-2015, 09:18 AM
yeah

Run To Me
02-07-2015, 10:38 AM
Billy didn't piss off James and he was playing on the album....it could be a return to form, and/or at least better that MSOTS.

But if Billy tracklisted MSTOS properly, and wasn't such a jackass to piss off the other guitarists, maybe that would've kept going...


fuck u billy

It's lonely at the top...

Even apart from the vocals the instrumental tracks on all the heavy tunes sound so squashed...the guitars are thin and reedy, the open hi-hat swishes annoyingly in a bad mp3 way instead of sizzling. It just hurts me to listen to for very long.

dreams of glass
02-07-2015, 10:49 AM
the jackals lick their balls

Kahlo
02-08-2015, 07:38 AM
CLOWNS IN MY SHOWA

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5056/5565117563_1c4dd93a2f_z.jpg

Mals Marola
02-08-2015, 07:59 AM
is anyone afraid?

chuckhagel
02-08-2015, 08:18 AM
Is anyone afraid?
Clowns in my shower.
The jackals lick their balls.

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 04:12 AM
I think I like a lot of the songs. I think they're good?

The production is awful though. I don't know what it is but there's way too much bass, like they didn't bother EQing any of the instruments or something? It's really blurry and indistinct. I have pretty good monitors, speakers & headphones and there's songs where I can't hear the drums other than some cymbals and snare. Vocals are too loud and he sounds like he can't be arsed.

I quite like the guitar playing.

It's really weird coming after his newspaper thing about wanting his band and dreams and songs back. Ok well you didn't want your band back that badly - you didn't even bother asking them. And you can't want your dreams and songs and blah blah back that badly if you can't even be bothered to sing and make sure your comeback record doesn't sound like piss.

Elphenor
02-09-2015, 04:28 AM
ZG songs are good but MCIS is rubbish

u wot m8 X 100000000

Elphenor
02-09-2015, 04:28 AM
The guitar playing is super cheezy

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 05:03 AM
there's some nice "picking dynamics".

teh b0lly!!1
02-09-2015, 05:04 AM
CHICKEN IN MY HEART

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 05:07 AM
If the whole thing didn't sound sub amateurish then it'd be the best nu SP record hands down no arguments.

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 05:14 AM
ZG songs are good but MCIS is rubbish

u wot m8 X 100000000

I think MCIS songs are ok, pretty good. There's nothing technically wrong with any of it. I think it's a bit rubbish in that it's really obviously written to sell to teenagers.

Zeitgeist is similar / worse in that way though as Billy was quite open about coming out with a big dumb heavy album to regain his market share and show that SP has the skillset to be number 1.

Ram27
02-09-2015, 08:22 AM
One of the things I don't like about BC/JC is that they act like there has to be a big business plan behind making music rather than just putting out a record for the truer motivations of making music

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 08:29 AM
To be fair I think it's necessary if you wanna get big. BC/JC are just a bit more open about their motivations than most guys.

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 08:30 AM
There's exceptions.

fuzzyroes
02-09-2015, 09:01 AM
Yeah, these guys were cut-throat businessmen. You don't often reach the top of a corporate market like the record industry by doing things ethically and organically.

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 09:28 AM
I don't know about "business men".

Elphenor
02-09-2015, 10:14 AM
I totally disagree.

MTV marketed them to teens like they did with all the alt. bands but he wasn't playing to the youth just to sell a bunch of records, it was more like he was writing an ode to all things youth as his was coming to an end

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 10:45 AM
I bet if someone straight up asked him he'd go on about identifying teens as his primary market and look real pleased with himself about it. He'd probably even start his answer with "well, as a business man.."

Mals Marola
02-09-2015, 11:05 AM
yeah it's pretty clear most of the material on mcis was written with purer intentions than "selling records"

i mean come on - galapagos, set the ray (& the fact that they didn't even put it on the album?), cherry, stumbleine, by starlight

if any of that is for teens it's the ones who were "wise beyond their years" anyway. bullet & whatnot caught on but as catchy as a line like despite all my rage is etc. it's still a pretty genuine piece of recorded rage :stan:

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 11:09 AM
And nobody nowhere understands anything
About me and all my dreams

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 11:10 AM
Can't we talk about Zeitgeist ?

Mals Marola
02-09-2015, 11:12 AM
sure which color

bobliefeld
02-09-2015, 11:17 AM
Did anyone buy all colours ? Or even more than one?

Mals Marola
02-09-2015, 11:31 AM
i am the proud owner of an original red & d-lux silver edition of the ZEIT

pavementtune
02-09-2015, 11:32 AM
Did anyone buy all colours ? Or even more than one?

yea, I did. want to have them? they're in the $1 box in the basement, waiting for garage sale day.

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 11:57 AM
Zeitgeist will go down in history as the high point of The Smashing Pumpkins reunion era.

pavementtune
02-09-2015, 11:58 AM
because it was the only "reunion" album before SP became a one-man band?

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 12:05 PM
because it was the only "reunion" album before SP became a one-man band?

No, because it is the most solid collection of songs Billy put together under the Pumpkins name after the break up.

Elphenor
02-09-2015, 12:30 PM
It will go down in history as one of the worst albums ever released by a popular band

It's terrible

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 12:31 PM
It will go down in history as one of the worst albums ever released by a popular band

It's terrible

Yeah, but have you heard the shit that succeeded it? :erm:

Elphenor
02-09-2015, 12:35 PM
Oash is better, TBK is better

MTAE is almost as bad

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 12:42 PM
I disagree, but then again choosing between these albums is a world's tallest midget situation.

Elphenor
02-09-2015, 12:52 PM
ZG vocals are just disgusting

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 01:00 PM
Yeah, but I think Zeitgeist could be OK if it was better produced.
Which is more than I can say for what came after.

dodoz
02-09-2015, 01:39 PM
It will go down in history as one of the worst albums ever released by a popular band

It's terrible

There are many horrible albums released by popular bands...

"Zeitgeist" is not a good album, but I was not baffled when I heard it - I didn't expect more from BC then, given the declining quality of his songwriting.

And "Oceania" is wayyyy worse to me, starting with a song that's not far from being Bully at his nadir ("Yes I ! Yes I ! Yes I !"). And not a single drum fill by JC to listen to, for obvious reasons..:erm:

pavementtune
02-09-2015, 01:56 PM
TBK is better

that's still baffling to me. how on earth could anyone rank tbk over - anything. absolute low point of everything corgan ever released.
I don't enjoy the Zeitgeist album, but I'd listen to it on repeat before I'd listen to tbk ever again.

Elphenor
02-09-2015, 02:14 PM
TBK was actually interesting and Corgan was doing stuff that he hadn't done before like Stitch in Time and Freak and The Fellowship and Astral Planes(Yes I dig it)

Along the way he released a few absolute shit songs for sure but ZG is shit from top to bottom and no amount of Jimmy super drumming was going to save those cheeze metal riffs, awful lyrics, atrocity level vocals(those Billy choirs and the la la la's and the no consonants good fucking God it's so awful), and the just plain dull songwriting.

It still shocks me how bad ZG.

For me it's "TBK isn't great" but at least it's not ZG

pavementtune
02-09-2015, 02:30 PM
okay, but what album do you think would win the poll "which is worse to listen to from start to finish: tbk or zeitgeist" ?

I mean you like tbk and all, but you always pretend there is some obvious reason why people should see zeitgeist as the worst shit that ever happened under the sp name. yet there are as many reasons why you could judge tbk as shitfest.

The exploding boy
02-09-2015, 02:37 PM
I would listen to TBK over ZG any day. Because TBK has at least two half decent songs. Which ZG doesn't.

I mean for sure ideally i'd rather not be subjected to either. I'm with elph that it's obvious ZG is the worst shit Corgan has put his name on.

I may be slightly biased though because heavy SP was never my favorite. But god, even then, nothing on ZG can measure against even my least favorite heavy riffage from SP1.

IMHO FWIW

Ram27
02-09-2015, 02:41 PM
All the SP1 heavy stuff was tastefully heavy, and/or tongue in cheek heavy

He'd never try to straight up sell a song like Doomsday Clock in the 90s

pavementtune
02-09-2015, 02:48 PM
BTW Ram, you ever check out that movie called 'whiplash'? I think you'd enjoy it.

yes. anybody with an interest in drumming should watch it.

dodoz
02-09-2015, 02:58 PM
Judging by the intro of "Starz", it was painful for Billy too.

ninsp
02-09-2015, 03:00 PM
Zeitgeist era was great as far as the look & sound & aura of the band. On record, it was a dumpster fire.

dodoz
02-09-2015, 03:05 PM
Amazingly, it was an "album of the month" in a french magazine. The guy wrote that "Zeitgeist" was the missing link between "Siamese Dream" and "Mellon Collie", the album they should have released then. And they get paid to write stuff like this.

ninsp
02-09-2015, 03:07 PM
Amazingly, it was an "album of the month" in a french magazine. The guy wrote that "Zeitgeist" was the missing link between "Siamese Dream" and "Mellon Collie", the album they should have released then. And they get paid to write stuff like this.

Missing link as in half baked D sides, then yeah.

dodoz
02-09-2015, 03:20 PM
Missing link as in half baked D sides, then yeah.

Even the worst jams from this era sounded better than the songs on ZG...

ninsp
02-09-2015, 03:31 PM
Even the worst jams from this era sounded better than the songs on ZG...

Yup. Because now the music sounds like the Smashing Pumpkins, just watered down forgettable B-sides from the MCIS era. Zeitgeist didn't even sound like the Pumpkins, it just sounded like shit.

brutechinasky
02-09-2015, 03:44 PM
Yup. Because now the music sounds like the Smashing Pumpkins, just watered down forgettable B-sides from the MCIS era.

You'd wish

vajohna
02-09-2015, 03:51 PM
Still not as bad as Oceania or Monuments. B-sides ain't bad at all.

slunken
02-09-2015, 03:52 PM
Zeitgeist didn't even sound like the Pumpkins, it just sounded like shit.

i believe that the less 'post-2007 billy' sounds like 'pre-2000 smashing pumpkins' is a good thing.

just fucking let it go. i can understand billy's reasoning for keeping the name (i still think it's stupid) but he's doing nothing but confusing typical retarded sp fans.

slunken
02-09-2015, 03:53 PM
what percentage of a modern day smashing pumpkins concert audiences aren't even aware that there are original members not present and stuff like that? a shockingly high number i would guess.

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 04:21 PM
Terrible lyrics have been a thing since the Zwan days, you can't single out Zeitgeist because of that.

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 04:26 PM
At least during the Zeitgeist era most people were into the band and supportive even though they released a bad album.

During the Teargarden era Billy straight up started bleeding fans.

Elphenor
02-09-2015, 04:51 PM
I don't know why that matters.

TBK lyrics were pretty okay when there were actual lyrics and it's one of the reasons why I put it miles above ZG.

Song for a Son, Freak, Lightning Strikes, The Fellowship, A Stitch in Time, Cottonwood symphony, Spangled

They all had interesting memorable lyrics imo.

I can barely recall more than like one or two lines from ZG that I thought weren't horrendously dumb and embarrassing

Elphenor
02-09-2015, 04:54 PM
It's like a political album or something but Billy has no idea what he's talking about and then it also has incredibly cheezy lovesong lyrics.

Like "That's the way my Love is" is a fantastic song musically from that era but good god those lyrics. So much cringe.

slunken
02-09-2015, 04:55 PM
i think zeitgeist sounds the most like original sp more than anything out of the reunion

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 05:04 PM
"They poison our Sweet mother earth destroy our sacred bodies to fill our minds with junk"
- Classic Pumpkins

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 05:10 PM
fantastic song musically (...) but good god those lyrics. So much cringe.

This sums up his entire post-reunion output.

Also uninspired rote melodies delivered in the worst way possible.

"in a waaaaahd, a waaaahd. I can't let go"
jesus h christ.

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 05:11 PM
I should really stop defending Zeitgeist, I also hate that goddamn album.

Ram27
02-09-2015, 05:23 PM
I have no idea why the cover was the Statue of Liberty

Mals Marola
02-09-2015, 05:28 PM
i actually think mtae's highs were a bit higher, or at least more interesting & sonically varied? zeitgeist is enjoyable every now again, aol sessions or album itself, but it's never been a threat of "favorite pumpkins album ever!" or anything

even machina had that going for it at various points

Ram27
02-09-2015, 05:57 PM
You guys are arguing which turd smells the worst. Just stop already. BTW Ram, you ever check out that movie called 'whiplash'? I think you'd enjoy it.

yes. anybody with an interest in drumming should watch it.

That seriously looks awesome, thanks


Remember that story about how Corgan made Jimmy play Cherub Rock until his hands bled


___

This shit is intense

werideatdusk
02-09-2015, 10:37 PM
Teargarden has more dignity than Zeit or MTAE, both of which seem calculated to move the teens. At least Teargarden was somewhat adventurous - especially the first EP. (i'd still take an interesting but garish WWMM over a Sam Goody "single" like Being Beige)... Freak and Tom Tom are certainly some of the best recorded SP2. And I dig Lightning Strikes, I dont care what anyone says.

Oceania is the only one that manages to feel like a spiritual sequel to the old SP, as opposed to a mere sonic knockoff. And it also feels true to where BC was at. And it picks up the TFE thread a bit. It's still questionable to call it an SP album, but I don't think it should be so controversial to say that Oceania is by far the best album Corgan has put out since resurrecting the SP name, and is actually a really good album.

LaBelle
02-09-2015, 10:42 PM
Lightning Strikes is probably my favorite SP2/3/4 track.

Nicole's vocals are pretty cool

bobliefeld
02-10-2015, 07:52 AM
Kinda think things have got real bad when people are looking back fondly at Astral Planes and Widow Wake My Mind.

in stereo
02-10-2015, 10:11 AM
Only upside to Zeitgeist era was that Jimmy was there, and that Billy actually was skinny and not a fat guy in 4 layers of hoodies and a winter hat.

Terrible album though, and classic Billy dick move with the multiple versions of the album each with different tracks.

Run To Me
02-11-2015, 07:14 PM
Teargarden has more dignity than Zeit or MTAE, both of which seem calculated to move the teens. At least Teargarden was somewhat adventurous - especially the first EP. (i'd still take an interesting but garish WWMM over a Sam Goody "single" like Being Beige)... Freak and Tom Tom are certainly some of the best recorded SP2. And I dig Lightning Strikes, I dont care what anyone says.

Oceania is the only one that manages to feel like a spiritual sequel to the old SP, as opposed to a mere sonic knockoff. And it also feels true to where BC was at. And it picks up the TFE thread a bit. It's still questionable to call it an SP album, but I don't think it should be so controversial to say that Oceania is by far the best album Corgan has put out since resurrecting the SP name, and is actually a really good album.

I agree with 100% of what you just said.

I can't really bring myself to call anything beyond zeit "sp" either. It feels like a concession. I don't think bill gets to have that. To me it's what it obviously is: solo bill. Would be nice to hear a solo bill not beholden to an idea of a band that's long since dead.

fuzzyroes
02-12-2015, 04:28 AM
Oh come on man. Teargarden is the worst of the worst... EP #2 had a couple highlights and then it was back to total shit with Lightning Strikes and Ohwhata.

fuzzyroes
02-12-2015, 04:32 AM
I'm also still surprised that Oceania has such a big following. It's such a neutered, bland attempt at trying to "return to their roots". Theres a few highlights like Violet Rays and the title track, but overall it's just really plain and boring.

bobliefeld
02-12-2015, 06:15 AM
I reckon TGBK has no dignity at all.

The whole thing was about the groundbreaking business model. The actual music seemed like an after thought?

bobliefeld
02-12-2015, 06:17 AM
Astral Planes coulda been good? I quite like the intro. It sounds like there's some cool guitar stuff going on. King Gizzard and The Lizard Wizard or whatever they're calleds "I'm In Your Mind" album is that kinda thing but decent ???

ninsp
02-12-2015, 08:28 AM
I'm also still surprised that Oceania has such a big following. It's such a neutered, bland attempt at trying to "return to their roots". Theres a few highlights like Violet Rays and the title track, but overall it's just really plain and boring.

It's pretty proggy and grand in scope. It is a really good album that is held down by the Pumpkins moniker. It just doesn't feel like a Pumpkins album, and that's it's major problem. Still, it's one of my favorite Pumpkins albums.

dodoz
02-12-2015, 09:35 AM
I'm also still surprised that Oceania has such a big following. It's such a neutered, bland attempt at trying to "return to their roots". Theres a few highlights like Violet Rays and the title track, but overall it's just really plain and boring.

Because Billy said it was a masterpiece weeks/months before it was even released. For some reason, the fans and the press swallowed it whole. I can't listen to "Oceania" in one sitting. Lame, lame album.:dammit:

fuzzyroes
02-12-2015, 11:44 PM
It's pretty proggy and grand in scope. It is a really good album that is held down by the Pumpkins moniker. It just doesn't feel like a Pumpkins album, and that's it's major problem. Still, it's one of my favorite Pumpkins albums.

Theres just no cohesion in the musicianship. Byrne and Nicole never seem to lock in with each other and then theres just Billy doing his thing and it all sounds underwhelming. Whether it's Byrnes fault or not, Billy was never really able to dial it in with him.

Monuments sounds much more cohesive and tight. It's only too bad that the lyrical approach is so straightforward. But it's a lot more sonically pleasing. It blows Oceania outta the water as far as I'm concerned.

fuzzyroes
02-12-2015, 11:47 PM
Because Billy said it was a masterpiece weeks/months before it was even released. For some reason, the fans and the press swallowed it whole. I can't listen to "Oceania" in one sitting. Lame, lame album.:dammit:

Yeah, I heard all the hype and I really wanted to like it. In fact at first I was happy cause it was a clear upgrade from the total dog-shit of Teargarden... But I'd listen to it and it just fell flat... Even the couple of songs that I "liked" wore off in a hurry.

It just reeked of Corgan going through the motions with a bottom feeder backing band.

fuzzyroes
02-12-2015, 11:49 PM
I honestly think the Panopticon is one of the most embarrassing songs Corgans ever wrote. It was like he was determined to go back to the Siamese Dream vibe to prove that he could, but the result is something that's just so bland, sterile and boring. The hooks and melodies are so weak, no surprises, no peaks and valleys to keep the listener interested... Just a total fail as far as I'm concerned.

Ram27
02-13-2015, 12:07 AM
Theres just no cohesion in the musicianship. Byrne and Nicole never seem to lock in with each other and then theres just Billy doing his thing and it all sounds underwhelming. Whether it's Byrnes fault or not, Billy was never really able to dial it in with him.

Monuments sounds much more cohesive and tight. It's only too bad that the lyrical approach is so straightforward. But it's a lot more sonically pleasing. It blows Oceania outta the water as far as I'm concerned.

The best thing about Oach is that it has that Pumpkins warmth about it. And there's a glimmer of integrity hidden in there

MTAE is cold heartless spreadsheets and synths and Jeff

Just look at the album covers

Elphenor
02-13-2015, 12:08 AM
It's pretty proggy and grand in scope. It is a really good album that is held down by the Pumpkins moniker. It just doesn't feel like a Pumpkins album, and that's it's major problem. Still, it's one of my favorite Pumpkins albums.

Idk about "really" good, but I enjoyed it

chuckhagel
02-13-2015, 12:42 AM
MTAE is cold heartless spreadsheets and synths and Jeff

Just look at the album covers

This is the most accurate and concise description I've heard someone do about MTAE.