Report Details Abuses in Irish Reformatories (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/world/europe/21ireland.html?ref=todayspaper)

"LONDON — Tens of thousands of Irish children were sexually, physically and emotionally abused by nuns, priests and others over 60 years in a network of church-run residential schools meant to care for the poor, the vulnerable and the unwanted, according to a report released in Dublin on Wednesday."

that shit is HOT

i would seriously be interested in what you catholics think of this

at what point does the "bad apples" fallback wear too thin?

how high up the church hierarchy and how systematic must this abuse be before it sorta becomes too much?

that shit is HOT


“Punching, flogging, assault and bodily attacks, hitting with the hand, kicking, ear pulling, hair pulling, head shaving, beating on the soles of the feet, burning, scalding, stabbing, severe beatings with or without clothes, being made to kneel and stand in fixed positions for lengthy periods, made to sleep outside overnight, being forced into cold or excessively hot baths and showers, hosed down with cold water before being beaten, beaten while hanging from hooks on the wall, being set upon by dogs, being restrained in order to be beaten, physical assaults by more than one person, and having objects thrown at them.”

“Punching, flogging, assault and bodily attacks, hitting with the hand, kicking, ear pulling, hair pulling, head shaving, beating on the soles of the feet, burning, scalding, stabbing, severe beatings with or without clothes, being made to kneel and stand in fixed positions for lengthy periods, made to sleep outside overnight, being forced into cold or excessively hot baths and showers, hosed down with cold water before being beaten, beaten while hanging from hooks on the wall, being set upon by dogs, being restrained in order to be beaten, physical assaults by more than one person, and having objects thrown at them.”

that shit is HOT

he posted the article, he read it's contents, the man knows what he's talking about!!

TINWOP

i really thought this was the apeal of the catholic church

this is what you get when the state is hand-in-glove with religion. a culture of immunity develops, which in turn attracts those most likely to abuse the benefits of it. it is the same story with any organization that is considered above suspicion: care homes, foster parents, scout troop leaders...

i would seriously be interested in what you catholics think of this


What do you think we would think about this? "Go molest/abuse children" isnt exactly catholic dogma.

My personal view, anyone who did it should be charged, and anyone who covered it up should be kicked out/charged.



at what point does the "bad apples" fallback wear too thin?


What "fallback" is more accurate? Some catholics =/= all catholics. Is abuse disproportionately higher in the Catholic church relative to other churches, especially given the size of the catholic church? If it is, then maybe you would have a point. Otherwise I'm not sure what answer you're looking for here.

“Punching, flogging, assault and bodily attacks, hitting with the hand, kicking, ear pulling, hair pulling, head shaving, beating on the soles of the feet, burning, scalding, stabbing, severe beatings with or without clothes, being made to kneel and stand in fixed positions for lengthy periods, made to sleep outside overnight, being forced into cold or excessively hot baths and showers, hosed down with cold water before being beaten, beaten while hanging from hooks on the wall, being set upon by dogs, being restrained in order to be beaten, physical assaults by more than one person, and having objects thrown at them.”

i am so turned on. hopefully, since i'm having a catholic wedding, my marriage contains lots of this!

maybe those 3 chicks in your avatar will show up and it turns into a fucking rager

:banoonoo: :rockon:

oh, "and you should of done your holy homework"

i generally am annoyed by any sort of theist but ones who identify themselves as catholic tend to irritate me in their own little way.

who's to say that stuff wouldn't have happened even if they weren't catholic

sleeper hardly posts & when he does it's about sexual crap on children

the report was released by a notoriously anti-Catholic group and it was reported and dramatized by the New York Times, which is also anti-Catholic

man when i was younger if my big bear of a priest had told me to suck his dick i would've said only if u suck mine first

then we would probably have high fived

this would have taken place before he was forced to move out of the uk for bragging about the size of his balls in gay chat rooms

the report was released by a notoriously anti-Catholic group and it was reported and dramatized by the New York Times, which is also anti-Catholic

Shut the fuck up. After the release of said report it was further investigated by the Irish Times, which is definitely not "anti-Catholic". Then it was picked up by the NYT.

I'm not a catholic or anything but I'm pretty sure abuse can be inflicted on those of any religion and also those without. The same goes with the abusers themselves

if it's coming from the irish, can we believe them ?!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/TwilightToStarlight/pic11.jpg

priest vallon will kick all those child molestors asses.

"You plague our children at every turn, but let it be known, from this day forward ye shall plague them no more. For the hand that tries to touch a young bottom shall be swiftly cut down!"

Well, the Simpsons where Homer and Bart become Catholics is pretty funny, so... guess i'm gonna have to look the other way here.

“Punching, flogging, assault and bodily attacks, hitting with the hand, kicking, ear pulling, hair pulling, head shaving, beating on the soles of the feet, burning, scalding, stabbing, severe beatings with or without clothes, being made to kneel and stand in fixed positions for lengthy periods, made to sleep outside overnight, being forced into cold or excessively hot baths and showers, hosed down with cold water before being beaten, beaten while hanging from hooks on the wall, being set upon by dogs, being restrained in order to be beaten, physical assaults by more than one person, and having objects thrown at them.”

The first thing I thought while reading that was "Jesus Christ!!"

What do you think we would this? "Go molest/ children" isnt exactly dogma.

My personal view, anyone who did it should be charged, and anyone who covered it up should be kicked out/charged.



What "fallback" is more accurate? Some catholics =/= all catholics. Is abuse disproportionately higher in the Catholic church relative to other churches, especially given the size of the catholic church? If it is, then maybe you would have a point. Otherwise I'm not sure what answer you're looking for here.

its not in the dogma, absolutely. but what worries me is how its behaviour that contradicts what is in the dogma (in other words, that religiosity is evidently no prophylactic against evil, contrary to what were to believe), and, more importantly, that the church has systematically covered their abuse up and protected the abusers. this really strikes to the core integrity of the institution. that something of this scale and severity could have gone on for so long is really damning of the church, i think.

the report was released by a notoriously anti- group and it was reported and dramatized by , which is also anti-

by "notoriously anti-catholic group" do you mean "the irish government"?

seriously, i find this post stunning. tens of thousands of children were abused and your first impulse is to try paper over it with cheap smears.
what you need do to is explicitly say that you think the charges are false, dont just try to glide by on this moronic innuendo. if, though, you dont think the charges are false, then what the fuck are you saying? it could have been produced by the most anti-catholic group in the world and it wouldnt matter

get off your high horse sleeper

its not like we don't all abuse a kid from time to time

english language is fucking useless

'abuse' and 'abuse' don't even sound the same, but they're spelled the same. ridiculous.

pretty useful as a lingua franca

After Nimrod's recent posting of items from the wildest of sources with weak, or really, completely absent senses of legitimacy his regular m.o. of questioning the source of every story he personally don't care for has gone from sad self-parody to desperate self-deluding.

Here's another gem:

Weakland says he didn't know priests' abuse was crime - JSOnline (http://www.jsonline.com/features/religion/45191277.html)

In the early years of the sex abuse scandal in Milwaukee, retired Archbishop Rembert G. Weakland says in his soon-to-be released memoir, he did not comprehend the potential harm to victims or understand that what the priests had done constituted a crime.

"We all considered sexual abuse of minors as a moral evil, but had no understanding of its criminal nature," Weakland says in the book, "A Pilgrim in a Pilgrim Church," due out in June.

Weakland said he initially "accepted naively the common view that it was not necessary to worry about the effects on the youngsters: either they would not remember or they would 'grow out of it.' "


What's sad is that you still have Catholics, even right here in this thread, willing to downplay the fact that they're willfully and happily funding and supporting a huge organization which has members who have been fucking little kids up the ass for decades, maybe centuries and even worse, even more members who have worked to cover it up. Maybe you can make yourself feel better by telling yourself this would have happened even if they weren't Catholic, or that the church is huge so this sort of thing statistically was going to happen anyway, but that all changes when you have example after example of church leadership knowingly letting abuse continue or actively moving priests around or paying off victims to play cover up.

Everyday, on the ground Catholics serve an organization which uses brainwashing and fear of a false god based on superstition and magic to

a) get power
b) get money
c) fuck little kids
d) cover it up*

all for the benefit of a select few, which, you know, makes it seem weird that anybody would be Catholic. The problem is if any of these people were the least bit rational they wouldn't be Catholic at all, so as long as they believe they'll go to heaven if they telepathically communicate with a zombie jew that lives in the sky that sort of psychosis will always trump the fact that the culture of their leadership has a taste for sex with children.

*e) would probably be "hate women" but I digress

The worst thing for me is that they just let so many priests off, either without consequences whatsoever, or they just relocating them to a new parish ("Hello, fresh meat!").

I mean, seriously, forget about fucking little kids for a second, because this is even worse, really:

Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids)

The Pope today reignited the controversy over the Catholic church's stance on condom use as he made his first trip to Africa.

The pontiff said condoms were not the answer to the continent's fight against HIV and Aids and could make the problem worse.

Benedict XVI made his comments as he flew to Cameroon for the first leg of a six-day trip that will also see him travelling to Angola.

The timing of his remarks outraged health agencies trying to halt the spread of HIV and Aids in sub-Saharan Africa, where an estimated 22 million people are infected.

The Roman Catholic church encourages sexual abstinence and fidelity to prevent the disease from spreading, but it is a policy that has divided some clergy working with Aids patients.

The pontiff, speaking to journalists on his flight, said the condition was "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems".

_______________________

This is the grand genius of the Catholic church, or really, most religion. As long as they can convince people that their way is the way to salvation, they can do whatever batshit crazy stuff they like, right in plain sight, announce it even, and completely get away with it because, you know, if you don't like it you're going to hell. Hence you have what should be perfectly sensible people attacking news sources because priests like to abuse children and roadblock condom distribution in Africa.

Nothing new here :/

i think we should looker deeper into this issue

what is it about catholic priests that little kids find so attractive?

i think we should looker deeper into this issue

what is it about catholic priests that little kids find so attractive?

If you got ten minutes this will answer your question:

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the report was released by a notoriously anti-Catholic group and it was reported and dramatized by the New York Times, which is also anti-Catholic

by "notoriously anti-catholic group" do you mean "the irish government"?


This.


Unfortunately it's all true. I was hoping we'd get a break from the Irish media talking about the recession but this is not what I had in mind.

I'll be surprised if nimrod shows his face in this thread again.

What an atrociously embarrassing, totally uninformed bullshit comment.

I'll be surprised if nimrod shows his face in this thread again.

What an atrociously embarrassing, totally uninformed bullshit comment.


yep

I'll be surprised if nimrod shows his face in this thread again.

What an atrociously embarrassing, totally uninformed bullshit comment.

this is a pretty bad habit of his.

After Nimrod's recent posting of items from the wildest of sources with weak, or really, completely absent senses of legitimacy his regular m.o. of questioning the source of every story he personally don't care for has gone from sad self-parody to desperate self-deluding.

bingo.
thats one of his biggest vices, for sure, just casually impugning some source as a substitute for an actual argument on merit. so brazenly idiotic

i think we should looker deeper into this issue

what is it about catholic priests that little kids find so attractive?

i think it's more like what makes the priesthood such an attractive life choice for catholics with a non-conformal sexual orientation


if the catholic church is going to continue to exist it would be better off with a lot of Fr. Curies than it would with men who didn't see giving up relationships with women for the rest of their life as a compelling deterrent

What's sad is that you still have Catholics, even right here in this thread, willing to downplay the fact that they're willfully and happily funding and supporting a huge organization which has members who have been fucking little kids up the ass for decades, maybe centuries and even worse, even more members who have worked to cover it up. Maybe you can make yourself feel better by telling yourself this would have happened even if they weren't Catholic, or that the church is huge so this sort of thing statistically was going to happen anyway, but that all changes when you have example after example of church leadership knowingly letting abuse continue or actively moving priests around or paying off victims to play cover up.

Everyday, on the ground Catholics serve an organization which uses brainwashing and fear of a false god based on superstition and magic to

a) get power
b) get money
c) fuck little kids
d) cover it up*

all for the benefit of a select few, which, you know, makes it seem weird that anybody would be Catholic. The problem is if any of these people were the least bit rational they wouldn't be Catholic at all, so as long as they believe they'll go to heaven if they telepathically communicate with a zombie jew that lives in the sky that sort of psychosis will always trump the fact that the culture of their leadership has a taste for sex with children.

*e) would probably be "hate women" but I digress

bingo again. the church is rotten through and through, i dont know how catholics can look themselves in the mirror anymore.
just as some phenomenon, the church is incredible. imagine it from the point of view of some alien or something: this giant, multi-millennia, international organization, achoring progress, warping minds, raping children for generations... if this was anything other than a religious organization its leaders would be locked up and their head offices razed to the ground

the one thing that transforms it from merely "insufferable" to "gag-inducing" is, all the while, their sickening piety and sanctimoniousness. i dont know of any other rapists that, simultaneously, preach haughtily about right and wrong and condemn other left and right for immorality. their authority is shot, period

by "notoriously anti-catholic group" do you mean "the irish government"?

seriously, i find this post stunning. tens of thousands of children were abused and your first impulse is to try paper over it with cheap smears.
what you need do to is explicitly say that you think the charges are false, dont just try to glide by on this moronic innuendo. if, though, you dont think the charges are false, then what the fuck are you saying? it could have been produced by the most anti-catholic group in the world and it wouldnt matter
I think the charges are being exaggerated in an effort to smear the Catholic Church by secular organizations

LOL.

What's sad is that you still have Catholics, even right here in this thread, willing to downplay the fact that they're willfully and happily funding and supporting a huge organization which has members who have been fucking little kids up the ass for decades, maybe centuries and even worse, even more members who have worked to cover it up.


Your funds help your local parish. Its not like they pool tips. If your Parish has never been accused of wrongdoing (which is dodgy the way some assholes cover it up) then by your reasoning, it would be ok to fund them right? I mean it's a big hocus-pocus operation, but I'd hope at the very least innocent 'til <i>you're accused of something</I> should be given some consideration. Lord knows we cant give them crazy bastards "until proven guilty". Let their god save them, amiright? o/


Maybe you can make yourself feel better by telling yourself this would have happened even if they weren't Catholic, or that the church is huge so this sort of thing statistically was going to happen anyway, but that all changes when you have example after example of church leadership knowingly letting abuse continue or actively moving priests around or paying off victims to play cover up.


My reference to the statistics of the matter was in reponse to sleeper essentially saying this was an overwhelming catholic problem. Much as some people say one child molester was gay, its an overwhelming homosexual problem. Assertions like that are full of shit without numbers to back it up. Maybe there are numbers to back it up, is there something wrong in pointing it out?


Everyday, on the ground Catholics serve an organization which uses brainwashing and fear of a false god based on superstition and magic to

a) get power
b) get money
c) fuck little kids
d) cover it up*

all for the benefit of a select few, which, you know, makes it seem weird that anybody would be Catholic. The problem is if any of these people were the least bit rational they wouldn't be Catholic at all, so as long as they believe they'll go to heaven if they telepathically communicate with a zombie jew that lives in the sky that sort of psychosis will always trump the fact that the culture of their leadership has a taste for sex with children.

*e) would probably be "hate women" but I digress

I have no clue what you'r talking about "serving" the church. I'd wager the great majority dont do shit. Maybe I'm a bad catholic, but Im no foot soldier. No one in my family is. My father's in the choir, thats about it. Its like you took a standard religion rant, changed everything to catholic and added some stuff on fucking kids.

Is there a religion you think people <i>are</i> "rational" for belonging to? It's an irrational belief, child fucking or not. But thats a different thread.

oh hey a sleeper thread

I think the charges are being exaggerated in an effort to smear the Catholic Church by secular organizations

actually some victims group have complained that the report was a whitewashing. if anything its conservative in its assessment.
but bottom line is that youre out of your fucking mind if you think any exaggeration is needed to implicate the church or horrendous wrong doing here.

This thread should be re-titled: Proof Future Boy is an idiot

i think the catholic haters and the catholics are all idiots.

Your funds help your local parish. Its not like they pool tips. If your Parish has never been accused of wrongdoing (which is dodgy the way some assholes cover it up) then by your reasoning, it would be ok to fund them right? I mean it's a big hocus-pocus operation, but I'd hope at the very least innocent 'til <i>you're accused of something</I> should be given some consideration. Lord knows we cant give them crazy bastards "until proven guilty". Let their god save them, amiright? o/
the Catholic Church is a unified social/political body. if it is in fact systematically facilitating and covering up abuse, wouldn't all parishes aligned with the Church's authority and protected under the umbrella of the Church's power be tainted?

My reference to the statistics of the matter was in reponse to sleeper essentially saying this was an overwhelming catholic problem. Much as some people say one child molester was gay, its an overwhelming homosexual problem. Assertions like that are full of shit without numbers to back it up. Maybe there are numbers to back it up, is there something wrong in pointing it out?
it's fair enough to ask for additional reliable statistics, but to compare to the completely unsubstantiated homophobic association of homosexuality and sexual violence or paraphilias is a stretch to say the least.

as ATS pointed out, there are many plausible explanations for why certain types of people find themselves in positions of this nature. it's more a question of why so little been done to root them out and seek justice, and why also the Church attempts to save face at the expense of the victims.

I have no clue what you'r talking about "serving" the church. I'd wager the great majority dont do shit. Maybe I'm a bad catholic, but Im no foot soldier. No one in my family is. My father's in the choir, thats about it. Its like you took a standard religion rant, changed everything to catholic and added some stuff on fucking kids.
legitimating the organization through your patronage and willingness to call yourself a Catholic is serving the Church. however you define it, it's kind of disingenuous to say "even if this organization I belong to is systematically abusing children, it's not like I tithe anyway". simply belonging to NAMBLA would be despicable enough on its own don't you think?

i was raised catholic, and even before any of this kind of thing was known to me, the whole thing was just disgusting. sleeper said it perfectly with the word sanctimonious. my main beefs were the following: with the institution: discouraging free thought, telling you what to think, and being super judgemental. churches in our town ran this really great youth minister out of our town because she was a lesbian. and it wasn't clear what the institution did other than collect your money and tell you what to think.

and the sanctimony -- my other beef was with the fellow members. to act so holy, as if you are better than others for attending a church, and judging others. and then turn right around and behave no better than anyone else, and often worse. the hipocrasy was bold-faced and unbelievable.


so i stopped having anything to do with the church as soon as i left the house at 18.

and then on top of all that, something magnitudes of order worse: the abuse, and molestation of children, the coverups and weak excuses. beyond repugnant.

i couldn't figure out why some of the older people in my extended family are still into catholicism. i really think it is just lack of inquisitiveness, lack of free thought, comfort, and apathy, just going along with what they were raised iwth. it's pathetic. anyone who stops to evaluate exactly what is going on pretty quickly realizes that everything the church supposedly stands for, all of the positive things, dont' require the church at all. and then the church basically takes your money, asserts its power, pushes it's warped, backwards, often hateful social agendas.. like seriously? you really want to be a part of this?

fucked

you said it, brother. i was also raised catholic but have been pretty repulsed by catholicism since about age 12.

I love how religion will bring people like Future Boy to devotion, and others to laughter and contempt.

I love how religion will bring people like Future Boy to devotion, and others to laughter and contempt.

that's sad, you must be very bored and lonely.

Without religion I'm bored and lonely because I don't have an Imaginary Friend controlling my thoughts. :(

all catholics are child abusers!
all jews are jesus torturers/killers!
all muslims are terrorists!
all fundamentalist christians are loons!

Without religion I'm bored and lonely because I don't have an Imaginary Friend controlling my thoughts. :(

i laughed.

Nimrod's Catholic. lol. I hope you plan on repenting for all of your pre-marital relations.

i was raised catholic, and even before any of this kind of thing was known to me, the whole thing was just disgusting. sleeper said it perfectly with the word sanctimonious. my main beefs were the following: with the institution: discouraging free thought, telling you what to think, and being super judgemental. churches in our town ran this really great youth minister out of our town because she was a lesbian. and it wasn't clear what the institution did other than collect your money and tell you what to think.

and the sanctimony -- my other beef was with the fellow members. to act so holy, as if you are better than others for attending a church, and judging others. and then turn right around and behave no better than anyone else, and often worse. the hipocrasy was bold-faced and unbelievable.


so i stopped having anything to do with the church as soon as i left the house at 18.

and then on top of all that, something magnitudes of order worse: the abuse, and molestation of children, the coverups and weak excuses. beyond repugnant.

i couldn't figure out why some of the older people in my extended family are still into catholicism. i really think it is just lack of inquisitiveness, lack of free thought, comfort, and apathy, just going along with what they were raised iwth. it's pathetic. anyone who stops to evaluate exactly what is going on pretty quickly realizes that everything the church supposedly stands for, all of the positive things, dont' require the church at all. and then the church basically takes your money, asserts its power, pushes it's warped, backwards, often hateful social agendas.. like seriously? you really want to be a part of this?

fucked

I feel the same way :/

This thread should be re-titled: Proof Future Boy is an idiot

I would think anyone who believes that wouldve already come to that conclusion before this thread.

the Catholic Church is a unified social/political body. if it is in fact systematically facilitating and covering up abuse, wouldn't all parishes aligned with the Church's authority and protected under the umbrella of the Church's power be tainted?

If they engaged in the practice, and then used this power to protect abusers, then yes. But one did it, so they're all guilty by association isn't a rational point of view. It's actually quite laughable. Americans have tortured. We are all Americans protected by the same power structure. Are we all guilty of torture? No. It was not done with my consent or forgiveness, no matter what group, social or political, we both may belong to.



it's fair enough to ask for additional reliable statistics, but to compare to the completely unsubstantiated homophobic association of homosexuality and sexual violence or paraphilias is a stretch to say the least.

How's it a stretch? I'm not directly saying one has something to do with the other. I'm comparing it to another unsubstantiated, but readily repeated claim. There's nothing to support either, so how is one more legitimate than the other?



as ATS pointed out, there are many plausible explanations for why certain types of people find themselves in positions of this nature. it's more a question of why so little been done to root them out and seek justice, and why also the Church attempts to save face at the expense of the victims.

Well, yeah.




legitimating the organization through your patronage and willingness to call yourself a Catholic is serving the Church. however you define it, it's kind of disingenuous to say "even if this organization I belong to is systematically abusing children, it's not like I tithe anyway". simply belonging to NAMBLA would be despicable enough on its own don't you think?

Well yes, but NAMBLA's sole purpose is to molest children. The churchs stated purpose does not ******* abusing of children. I do not canvas for the church, I do not promote the church, I dont care if people are theist or atheist, whether they are active or not. I dont feed the beast. No one is going to rush out and convert based on my replying to a post <i>specifically asking</i> for my reply. A catholic institution, of which I am not a part of, have not nor will financially support in the future, engaged in deplorable behavior which I do not condone or excuse. What exactly should be my response to this, other than fry the bastards.

I return to my example from before, assuming you're American, but even if not the logical fallacy is clear. The government is responsible for some reprehensible shit, but you still live here and pay taxes into the system, right? So how's it feel being responsible for the atrocities at Abu Ghraib? There are claims (unsupported, but I guess that doesnt matter) of children being sodomized there. Being an American, you obviously condone and help perpetuate it, simply by existing. You simply must, you are American.

it's a immeasurably easier and infinitely more practical to disassociate yourself with a church than it is with a country where you live and work

that's sad, you must be very bored and lonely.

leave the board again please

This is completely unsurprising, this shit has been used as a vessel for corruption for a loooong time.

it's a immeasurably easier and infinitely more practical to disassociate yourself with a church than it is with a country where you live and work

So you accept the logic that we are all guilty of torture? We are all guilty of Bush's actions these past 8 years? How can you sleep at night Jesse with the blood of all those innocent Iraqis killed in the war on your head?

Of course one is easier than the other, the point is whether either is necessary. It isnt.

leave the board again please

you're pretty dumb.

i mean really really dumb.

Yeah I know, you think that about everyone.

At least you people don't live in a country where 75% of the people are Roman Catholic and where its church tax is mandatory as long as you don't officially leave the church.

Who's DeadOpera again? He annoys me greatly.

i mean really really dumb.

Age: 27

Who's DeadOpera again? He annoys me greatly.

rocklobster. me too

that explains all the positive rep from rocklobster that i saw when i put deadopera on ignore

Yeah I know, you think that about everyone.

no I don't. Just people like you who think they know everything "YEAH I KNOW!!!"
what a fucking joke you are

ha ha ha

that explains all the positive rep from rocklobster that i saw when i put deadopera on ignore

you know how many times you've realized and forgotten that rocklobster = deadopera? probably like 50 times now.

fat fuck

^ i bet each one of those posts is as good as the last one

oh no don't attack how many posts i have! i only wish i had 30 000 meaningful posts as you!

You probably shouldn't have said anything in this thread, Lobsty.

At least you people don't live in a country where 75% of the people are Roman Catholic and where its church tax is mandatory as long as you don't officially leave the church.

Who's DeadOpera again? He annoys me greatly.out of curiosity, how difficult is it to officially leave the church?

Well, actually you just have to fill out some papers, but for some reason they rejected mind three times already. And the thing is - once they claimed their taxes, even though you're trying desperately to leave, you gotta pay no matter what, thanks to the Concordat of 1933. Fucking bummer.

Catholics are one of the few minority groups it's acceptable - nay, encouraged - to discriminate against.

I find this fascinating.

that sounds shitty.

but then again, i am a secular organisation, what would i know?

Catholics are one of the few minority groups it's acceptable - nay, encouraged - to discriminate against.

I find this fascinating.

/Nevermind. Not worth it.

Catholics are one of the few minority groups it's acceptable - nay, encouraged - to discriminate against.

I find this fascinating.

just get the fuck out of here

god, its one moronic comment after another, take a hint

Hey sleeper if there were a story that a black person killed a guy, would you assume all black people kill guys?

just get the fuck out of here

god, its one moronic comment after another, take a hint

Yeah, you're right, everyone should just let you run wild with your bigotry

Nimrod talking about bigotry. Classic.

I dunno why he's assuming everyone that criticizes the catholic church in this thread for various misdeeds going back to the 14th century means they think that all practicing catholics are __________________.

This says more about how his mind works than it does about anyone else.

what a towering embarassment. goodness.

are you kidding? sleeper is the biggest bigot on this board

supposing that he is, i don't think you're in any position to call him out on it

I am in every position to do so. Especially since all he does is ride in once in a while on his high horse and post bigoted threads. I mean that's all he is.

Catholics are one of the few minority groups it's acceptable - nay, encouraged - to discriminate against.

-by other religions. I mean if you think atheists outnumber Catholics, you'd be dead wrong.

Plus I don't discriminate against Catholics, I just want to teach them.

I mean if someone said WWII started in 1963 when President McKinley landed on the moon, you would laugh in that person's face for being so dead wrong. But yet when people speak of mysticism as though it were reality, those people should get a pass because it's their belief? I can argue with people about politics, mathematics, physics, history, but when it comes to magic, I'm discriminating?

I am in every position to do so. Especially since all he does is ride in once in a while on his high horse and post bigoted threads. I mean that's all he is.

i guess when you're here every day saying ignorant, hateful things it's different

wow, nimrod's idiocy is really stunning sometimes.

HEY YOU'RE A FUCKING CANNIBAL, YOU GROSS FUCK. GO EAT SOME GOD BODY AND DRINK SOME GOD BLOOD.

you fucking prick. ugh. you're the WORST. "WOE IS ME! I'M ALWAYS BEING PERSECUTED AS A WHITE CHRISTIAN MALE IN AMERICA!!!"

fuck you.

yeah when catholics play the bigot card its always a joke everyone but them seems to gets. id be surprised if they didnt exact some pleasure from the simple novelty of them being able to call others bigots for a change. bill donahue, that vile fucking monster, plays this card so regularly youd think that it was the only talking point he memorized (unfortunately not)

Catholics are dumb -- most of them, anyway. I recently talked to a girl who feels as though Catholicism is something I will never fully understand, largely in part because I completely disagreed with her when she said the Bible claims Barack Obama is the antichrist. I wish I was making this up. Most mainstream Catholics are really stupid. Catholic girls are especially slutty and contradict their supposed devotion to faith.

I'm so glad to be agnostic.

The Bible claims BO is the antichrist? How?

the muslims love their BO so it must have something to do with an antichrist

Catholics are dumb -- most of them, anyway. I recently talked to a girl who feels as though Catholicism is something I will never fully understand, largely in part because I completely disagreed with her when she said the Bible claims Barack Obama is the antichrist. I wish I was making this up. Most mainstream Catholics are really stupid.

Oh please. They are no more stupid than other religious people. Basically the only people I know (sad but sort of true) are either Catholic or were raised Catholic. A lot of them are extremely intelligent. And not one of them argues that BO is the antichrist. The chick you're talking about is a fucking idiot and not representative of mainstream Catholicism.

I hate that I have to defend Catholicism here sometimes because so many of you like to toss out blanket generalizations that are essentially completely unfounded.

Catholics are dumb -- most of them, anyway. I recently talked to a girl who feels as though Catholicism is something I will never fully understand, largely in part because I completely disagreed with her when she said the Bible claims Barack Obama is the antichrist. I wish I was making this up. Most mainstream Catholics are really stupid. Catholic girls are especially slutty and contradict their supposed devotion to faith.

I'm so glad to be agnostic.

omg seriously?

I'd fuck a nun. Also Ronald Reagan was the antichrist.

Well, actually you just have to fill out some papers, but for some reason they rejected mind three times already. And the thing is - once they claimed their taxes, even though you're trying desperately to leave, you gotta pay no matter what, thanks to the Concordat of 1933. Fucking bummer.

you pay a state-collected tithe to the Church? you are Austrian, right? where i live (Britain), the Church has to make do with collections, donations.

also, i don't get how people are freaking out about this, like it is some huge revelation. any monolithic organization that is rubbing shoulders with the state authorities and has dealings with the vulnerable (in this case, children) is open to this kind of abuse. how many times have we seen 'systematic' abuse in care homes, psychiatric institutions, the military etc?

going to mass tomorrow with my family. holler.

My mom is Catholic and I don't dare talk to her about these things. I tried to open up about my "the thorn birds" fantasies with her and she was pissed.

Jews are dumb -- most of them, anyway.
Most mainstream mexicans are really stupid.
yeah when blacks play the bigot card its always a joke everyone but them seems to gets. id be surprised if they didnt exact some pleasure from the simple novelty of them being able to call others bigots for a change. jesse jackson, that vile fucking monster, plays this card so regularly youd think that it was the only talking point he memorized (unfortunately not)
bingo again. the NAACP is rotten through and through, i dont know how blacks can look themselves in the mirror anymore.
You're right- there's no bigotry here whatsoever.

You realize that none of those comparisons has any validity whatsoever, right?

some of you are really stupid you know

some of you are really stupid you know

But we will always have you to tell us the ugly truth.

You're right- there's no bigotry here whatsoever.

ha, you shouldve just cut your loses after the first idiotic comment and left, but you keep digging deeper

seriously, why would anyone even need bigotry to condemn the catholic church? its a fucking logical imperative, one cant escape it

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fast forward to 6:15

he was a big time boy preacher in the 70s and here he is explaining with total cynicism how he games people, what gimmicks he uses to dupe the gullible

You're right- there's no bigotry here whatsoever.

you choose your ideology, you don't choose your nationality, sexual orientation, or ethnicity. this is trolling right

it's not that easy but yeah i think he's trolling

its always tempting to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's trolling but, no, hundreds and hundreds of post definitively confirm it: he is actually this stupid. scary but true

yeah

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fast forward to 6:15

he was a big time boy preacher in the 70s and here he is explaining with total cynicism how he games people, what gimmicks he uses to dupe the gulliblethis isn't even catholic. you're so blind in your hate for anyone religious that you're getting confused

you choose your ideology, you don't choose your nationality, sexual orientation, or ethnicity. this is trolling right
Cool. Glad to see antisemitism is now acceptable.

jews are an ethnic group

and i'm not going to explain this to you

This thread is amazing.

I'm watching Religulous right now, and it's kinda cool that the both Catholic priests up until now seem like the sanest persons so far. Especially considering Bill Maher's style of interviewing.

I'm watching Religulous right now, and it's kinda cool that the both blacks up until now seem like the sanest persons so far. Especially considering Bill Maher's style of interviewing.

my god will the bigotry never end!?!?!??!???!!!???

you choose your ideology, you don't choose your nationality, sexual orientation, or ethnicity. this is trolling right

actually, I'd say the majority of people participating in religion didn't 'choose' their ideology - they were born into it.

Yeah, but should you desire to change it, you could. Changing your nationality, sexual orientation, or ethnicity would not be so simple though.

i was reading in the park today and this old asian dude, fundamentalist christian it turned out, started trying to proselytize me.
it might surprise some of your shitheads to learn that we had a civil one hour discussion and that i was exceedingly polite and pretty much limited myself to simple questions only -- even when he started going on about "and of course all these billions of humans couldnt have, what, come from monkeys? its absurd."

it was interesting because he said that he used to be a non-believer but then was persuaded by the "evidence for creationism." this, worst of all foundations, was his gateway into religious belief.
it was also disappointing because he really reverted to all of the worst habits of the religious in such discussions, by a) just appealing mindlessly to scripture, using its truth as a premise in other arguments, and b) when the chips are down, hiding behind faith. i dug deeper and deeper and by the end he just said that you need to believe first, even if it doesnt make sense. faith seems to be what it inevitably boils down to in all of these disucssions, i dont think ive ever, ever gotten past that point with any religious person, its the root of their belief structure and is too fragile to really put into play. its at that point that they squirm or run or just refuse to discuss it any further. shameless bullshit

actually, I'd say the majority of people participating in religion didn't 'choose' their ideology - they were born into it.

that more explains its origin than excuses a mature adult believing it -- unless youre suggesting that people have been so thoroughly brainwashed that theyre no longer responsible for what they believe

faith seems to be what it inevitably boils down to in all of these disucssions, i dont think ive ever, ever gotten past that point with any religious person, its the root of their belief structure

well goddamn sleeper you just might be on to something here!

actually, I'd say the majority of people participating in religion didn't 'choose' their ideology - they were born into it.

actually I take back what I said, because I don't even know if it matters whether one can choose or not. when it comes down to it the assertions made about Catholics extend only to their actual beliefs - ones of which some of us simply have an unfavorable opinion. it's not anything like connecting someone's ethnicity to another characteristic where one does not necessitate the other. if someone said "Catholics love stealing" I would agree that it's prejudice

Oh man wtf does it matter let whoever believes in whatever they want believe in it

Okay, I believe that all female babies should be slaughtered because they are carriers of demon snake spirits.

That's pretty cool

by the end he just said that you need to believe first, even if it doesnt make sense. faith seems to be what it inevitably boils down to in all of these disucssions, i dont think ive ever, ever gotten past that point with any religious person, its the root of their belief structure and is too fragile to really put into play. its at that point that they squirm or run or just refuse to discuss it any further. shameless bullshit

I know a fundamentalist christian, and yes it usually comes to this when digging deep into serious questions about faith etc. I think these people hang onto their faith the same way people hang onto a girl/boyfriend. It's difficult to explain, and easy to ignore - as long as no one is perpetuating a rape-culture. .. which I don't think that Catholics are...

sleeper are you a wiccan? j/c

he's a self-loathing jew

a) just appealing mindlessly to scripture, using its truth as a premise in other arguments
this really is the basis of why all "civilized" religious arguments will hardly lead anywhere. theology always comes down to this. even the smartest christian people will not let go of this way of building their theses. creationism really is a joke, an unscientific, and, if you will, unchristian joke. the concept of "revelation" really is the last bastion of intelligent christian thought.

sometimes i think we can't really win against that degree of indoctrination

The Catholic Church still lives in a bygone era of denial,all that Dan Brown phantasy stuff just gives them good PR.

Oh man wtf does it matter let whoever believes in whatever they want believe in it

Good point. I'm not nearly as argumentative as I was as a teenager, but I'm still bothered by these people teaching the bible to their kids as truth. Kids unable to critically assess what they've been told. How is this not brainwashing?

Parents should only teach children math and science. Anything else should be left up to the individual!

this really is the basis of why all "civilized" arguments will hardly lead anywhere. always comes down to this. even the smartest christian people will not let go of this way of building their theses. creationism really is a , an unscientific, and, if you will, unchristian joke. the concept of "revelation" really is the last bastion of intelligent christian thought.

sometimes i think we can't really win against that degree of indoctrination

its just that, to them, every question over the truth or morality or validity of anything in christianity is ACTUALLY just a question of biblical scholarship. theres some contradiction in this or that passage of the bible? well, see, you just need to read it closer, study it deeper. some precept it contains is heinously immoral? cleary your reading isnt of the sophistication required!
again, theyre just assuming a priori that its all true, and fitting everythign to that. from that point of view their behaviour is logical -- if we know that the bible is indeed the truth, then we can know that some apparent contradiction couldnt be what it seems. but needless to say this is not the way it works. this is faiths fault, faith is what gives them that certainty of its truth at the beginning.

also its interesting to note that by the end of the discussion i really had him sweating, and not on any of the sort of philosophical arguments, but on the moral arguments. i never really saw these things as such a big deal, but religious people consistently have big problems with the problem of evil and such. ask them why there are diseases that ravage infants -- innocent, pure, etc -- and watch them flounder. first he said its satan, but, what, is satan stronger than god? no no no. ok so then what? well god has plans, he wants people back, he said. but why make them suffer? well, it says in verse x chapter y, that god sorts things out in the end. then why any intervention at all, ever? and so on

Good point. I'm not nearly as argumentative as I was as a teenager, but I'm still bothered by these people teaching the bible to their kids as truth. Kids unable to critically assess what they've been told. How is this not brainwashing?

That pretty much goes for...everything a child learns. Most we can do is keep it out of the public school system/government. The problem is one set of assholes shoving their beliefs down peoples throat, and other assholes that get hot and bothered because someone else happens to have an irrational belief. Being enlightened and above it all isnt enough, anyone of faith has to be publicly shamed or something. If some day assholes in group 1 decided to shut the fuck up, these fucks would keep their we're so awesome circle jerk right on going.

So if everyone was like Bonnie things would be ok. Minus that rat in mouth thing of course.

me day assholes in group 1 decided to shut the fuck up, these fucks would keep their we're so awesome circle jerk right on going.

not so. there are and have always been arguments on these things solely on principle, but there is much to take from the fact that, the greater the role and influence and power of religious beliefs, the greater the criticism. christian and islamic fundamentalism birthed this current wave of criticism, as it shouldve: its religion that has underwritten islamic terrorism, a third of bush's AIDS money going to abstinence only bullshit, intelligent design, much homophobia, much anti-abortion idiocy, etc etc etc

the thing bonnie misses (id ******* you with her but you, i think, just long for the idiotic insulation from criticism that the old PC habits of yore afforded you guys -- too fucking bad) is that, if this really were just a question of personal-belief-that-effected-nobody, we wouldnt be seeing 1% of the criticism were seeing now. the moment tarot card believers (irrational, no doubt) start dictating public policy, we'll see some vocal criticism of that too.

not so. there are and have always been arguments on these things solely on principle, but there is much to take from the fact that, the greater the role and influence and power of religious beliefs, the greater the criticism. christian and islamic fundamentalism birthed this current wave of criticism, as it shouldve: its religion that has underwritten islamic terrorism, a third of bush's AIDS money going to abstinence only bullshit, intelligent design, much homophobia, much anti-abortion idiocy, etc etc etc

the thing bonnie misses (id ******* you with her but you, i think, just long for the idiotic insulation from criticism that the old PC habits of yore afforded you guys -- too fucking bad) is that, if this really were just a question of personal-belief-that-effected-nobody, we wouldnt be seeing 1% of the criticism were seeing now. the moment tarot card believers (irrational, no doubt) start dictating public policy, we'll see some vocal criticism of that too.

I dont long for any insulation, there's nothing you've ever said or questioned that I havent already thought or questioned. The contradictions are fairly easy to see, you guys dont have some unique ability. I just think there's better things to fight for. Religion being the root of some of this, the fight should be getting it out of public life and policy.

Who cares what some guy in some park believes, as long as he doesnt want you to live by it. What's served ultimately by doing what you did, really, other than stroking your own ego? You couldve just as politely told him to sell that shit somewhere else. You didnt engage him on the role religion should have in government. But you're in luck, because assholes in group 1 probably arent shutting up anytime soon, so you'll have easy justification for doing...whatever it is you've convinced yourself that you do in these threads.

so you don't see any dangers with a community that says:

harmful actions can be forgiven by holding a cheap bracelet whilst reciting a nursery rhyme to yourself
contraceptives are morally wrong
i mean i have to get to work but you know what i'm getting at

the catholic church obviously has an insane amount of influence and the institution has been prone to corruption. everything from selling indulgences to harboring childfuckers. without the 99% of "normal" catholics giving tithe to these people every week, the radicals wouldn't have the resources to be so culturally destructive.

that's why it's important to argue on principal.

Forget it, Im posting both then.
i'm not annoyed by the dangers of religion (of which there are many), but by the utter pointlessness of it in the lives of believers.


I would say thats as dumb as believing in a zombie jew who lives in the sky. At least the first makes sense. Shit Im religious and I'm afraid of it.

Why? Can you say? Or is it just a reflex thing, like nails on a chalkboard type thing.

so you don't see any dangers with a community that says:

harmful actions can be forgiven by holding a cheap bracelet whilst reciting a nursery rhyme to yourself
contraceptives are morally wrong
i mean i have to get to work but you know what i'm getting at

If they hold forgiveness as above the law, then yes. That is not the prevailing catholic belief.




the catholic church obviously has an insane amount of influence and the institution has been prone to corruption. everything from selling indulgences to harboring childfuckers. without the 99% of "normal" catholics giving tithe to these people every week, the radicals wouldn't have the resources to be so culturally destructive.

that's why it's important to argue on principal.

Has there been corruption and cover up, yes. Its fucking wrong, and as I said before anyone doing either should be prosecuted. But even several instances of something does not demonstrate that "Hey, you guys molest everyone you want, we got it covered" is the prevailing institutional view or directive from up high. I asked before for something illustrating this and I still haven't seen it. So what do you guys have, news reports? Fuck, if you go by news reports only little white girls from the suburbs get kidnapped or go missing. I simply do not agree that it's as institutional as you guys do, and you haven't even tried to back that up somehow.

I'll del that if you want.

Religion being the root of some of this, the fight should be getting it out of public life and policy.

yeah thats one thing that needs to be done, but not the only. you also need to challenge peoples beliefs, stop letting such hugely influential nonsense have this weird free pass.
i think nothing helps religion more than this widespread blank check that is given to it our society -- its always "special" in some way, supposed to be treated in some special way. i think it should be treated like anything else, and i think it has a really positive effect to do that, to not abide by these norms. it can be totally game-changing, if enough people do it.

Who cares what some guy in some park believes, as long as he doesnt want you to live by it.

what? did you miss the part of the story where i said that HE came up to ME in the park and started trying to get me to live by what he believes? who cares what some guy in the park believes? thats a question you should be asking him, not me.

What's served ultimately by doing what you did, really, other than stroking your own ego? You couldve just as politely told him to sell that shit somewhere else. You didnt engage him on the role religion should have in . But you're in luck, because assholes in group 1 probably arent shutting up anytime soon, so you'll have easy justification for doing...whatever it is you've convinced yourself that you do in these threads.

actually, the first thing i said when he asked if i was interested in hearing about christ was "sorry, im an atheist. this really isnt for me" with the implication "go away." he stuck around, as they tend to, and one thing just followed another.

i wasnt coercive or bullying or anything, i did nothing but just meekly ask these questions, questions that he should be capable of answering. the same way he wanted me to question what i believe, he should be prepared to do the same.

*principle.

yeah thats one thing that needs to be done, but not the only. you also need to challenge peoples beliefs, stop letting such hugely influential nonsense have this weird free pass.
i think nothing helps religion more than this widespread blank check that is given to it our society -- its always "special" in some way, supposed to be treated in some special way. i think it should be treated like anything else, and i think it has a really positive effect to do that, to not abide by these norms. it can be totally game-changing, if enough people do it.
.

So yeah, this falls under the circle jerk part of my previous post, that you seemed to disagree with. But 40 minutes later you pretty much prove. Plus yes, it would deserve as much of a free pass as anything else that was not interfering with peoples lives, or being used as a justification for messing with peoples lives. But this will probably never happen, so keep on trucking.

Again, I never said it should get a free pass, there's better things to focus on this that would help eliminate its influence quicker/better. You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want is an easier argument than, "You're an idiot."



what? did you miss the part of the story where i said that HE came up to ME in the park and started trying to get me to live by what he believes? who cares what some guy in the park believes? thats a question you should be asking him, not me.

actually, the first thing i said when he asked if i was interested in hearing about christ was "sorry, im an atheist. this really isnt for me" with the implication "go away." he stuck around, as they tend to, and one thing just followed another.

i wasnt coercive or bullying or anything, i did nothing but just meekly ask these questions, questions that he should be capable of answering. the same way he wanted me to question what i believe, he should be prepared to do the same.

No I read that, but you made no mention of him being an ass and not leaving you alone. That changes nothing other than adding to it with, I guess he had it coming.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/Rockyuk_photos/lol-jesus-brb.jpg

actually, I'd say the majority of people participating in religion didn't 'choose' their ideology - they were born into it.

that doesn't make any difference

my parents were both raised irish catholic, my mother even went to catholic school. when they grew up they just decided it was total bullshit. I've never gone to church except for weddings and funerals.

that Dan Brown phantasy stuff just gives them good PR.

how come we always get these dumb fucking comments

isn't the plot of every dan brown novel that the catholic church are a bunch of bastards that hide the truth

also it's spelled fantasy, jesus fucking christ.

that doesn't make any difference

my parents were both raised irish catholic, my mother even went to catholic school. when they grew up they just decided it was total bullshit. I've never gone to church except for weddings and funerals.

yeah - I am in the same boat too. I am just saying that people shouldn't feel guilty for being catholic. .. Investing in an organized faith is a universal thing - and if you decide to go that route and you are born into it it doesn't mean you are a zealot-rapist.

People feel guilty because they're Catholics all time it's part of the belief system.

I mean not specifically about the fact that they're catholic but it's a pretty guilt based religion. "Feel guilty because you are not as holy as Him. Now kneel and repent, and keep your head bowed. I'll be hearing Confessions after the sermon. Because you are guilty of sin, it is unescapable."

one of the things i notice about catholic cultures is that they like to party. italians, irish, mexicans, spaniards...I think it's because they feel guilty about it and confess and that absolves them. So they go out and party more after. I mean what is perhaps the world's biggest party is the day before catholics give up stuff for 40 days. I bet you that priests were confessing their sins to god about touching boys and they just kept it quiet and kept doing it.

a lot of protestant faiths kind of go, "ok if you accept jesus as your savior and you promise not to do lots of really bad shit you'll get to heaven." Catholics assume you do bad shit and you will always do bad shit so you have to confess to it. guilt. and the perpetuation of the sin.

you can choose to practice and you can choose to not and honestly, and that's your deal and i'm not going to berate you for it, but considering all the horrible shit the catholic church has done since the fall of rome why in the fuck would you