...

ive always been the one that defended corgan the most in the past. recently, im finding this a lot harder to do. the crass commercialism in itself doesnt bother me so much as the fact that the music hes putting out is tainted by it. singles dont gain or bring joy to fans.

maybe its all a reaction to TFE. an album which i think was good, at times great, and i definitely liked the experimental attitude that came with that record. maybe he felt humiliated by the commercial, and in some ways artistic, failure of it. hopefully he'll become avant garde again soon because right now hes slowly turning into an embarassing old rock monument in the vein of aerosmith.

hopefully he'll become avant garde again soon because right now hes slowly turning into an embarassing old rock monument in the vein of aerosmith.

uh they were never really avant garde. but i think i know what you mean by that, and i don't think it'll ever happen again unless he moves into a parking garage, has his parents start treating him like shit again, and runs into some more cool james/d'arcy type people.

if he wants to be all porny and mansiony and ticketmastery that's fine, but he should retire from making music. a person with that lifestyle doesn't have much to say to the rest of us.

i consider the stigmata ost, adore, machina and the walking shade video to be avant garde or experimental. to my ears at least they sounded very fresh... zeitgeist seems very stale and boring in comparison.

the thing that frustrates me most is that i still think hes a genius and able to make incredible music but with his current mindset i doubt he will anytime soon.

maybe he figured if everyone is always calling him a dick anyways, he might as well go and cash in while he still can

I'm sick of all this hand wringing over shit that doesn't matter. Who cares what house Billy lives in? Who cares who he fucks? Who cares who his manager is? Anyone who uses minutia like that to justify losing interest in the music itself obviously just didn't like the music all that much in the first place. Siamese Dream is still Siamese Dream. Mellon Collie is still Mellon Collie. I don't see how your opinion of Billy Corgan, 2009, should influence your opinion on the meaningfulness of music that was written a decade and a half ago. Especially if it's music you grew up with and have formed allegedly strong emotional connections to. To consider music spoiled because 10 years later the guy who performed it hangs out with a porn star is just the height of silliness.

And I'm sorry, but the "good name" of the Smashing Pumpkins should only be of concern to us to the extent that it affects Billy's ability to continue to make music. If the name "Smashing Pumpkins" becomes a big enough joke that no one will release their music or book them for concerts anymore, then complain away. But who cares if carrying the label "Smashing Pumpkins fan" gets you snickers from whatever hipster douchebag happens to be commenting at the time? Sure, there was a time when it was cool to be a Smashing Pumpkins fan. That was nice. But for whatever reason, it's not cool anymore. Should that matter? It seems like it does to some of you.

^ this guy also voted for george w. bush

tl;dr

you broke my gun, billy. you bastard.
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/resources/images/185426/?type=display

experimental and avant-garde are not the same thing

math rock and post rock aren't the same thing

I'm sick of all this hand wringing over shit that doesn't matter. Who cares what house Billy lives in? Who cares who he fucks? Who cares who his manager is? Anyone who uses minutia like that to justify losing interest in the music itself obviously just didn't like the music all that much in the first place. Siamese Dream is still Siamese Dream. Mellon Collie is still Mellon Collie. I don't see how your opinion of Billy Corgan, 2009, should influence your opinion on the meaningfulness of music that was written a decade and a half ago. Especially if it's music you grew up with and have formed allegedly strong emotional connections to. To consider music spoiled because 10 years later the guy who performed it hangs out with a porn star is just the height of silliness.

And I'm sorry, but the "good name" of the Smashing Pumpkins should only be of concern to us to the extent that it affects Billy's ability to continue to make music. If the name "Smashing Pumpkins" becomes a big enough joke that no one will release their music or book them for concerts anymore, then complain away. But who cares if carrying the label "Smashing Pumpkins fan" gets you snickers from whatever hipster douchebag happens to be commenting at the time? Sure, there was a time when it was cool to be a Smashing Pumpkins fan. That was nice. But for whatever reason, it's not cool anymore. Should that matter? It seems like it does to some of you.

most ppl can't seperate the art from the artist.

billy's just the guy everyone loves to hate. no matter how many stupid things billy says or does or wears....it won't take away from the quality of his music. but it will give fodder for the journalists and people here. the media already figured out that trashing BC sells issues and gets website hits. so no surprise it generates msg board traffic as well.

I must say, I have become a bit confused by Billy in the past few years. Although he's always had that kind of personality that leads many to label him as an "asshole," "egocentric," etc. at his core was a fundamentally decent and well-intentioned person, and that his heart was at least in the right place. Now I'm not sure what to think. He's just become increasingly self-absorbed and out of touch, it seems. Moreover, his artistic intentions seem to be going wayward in such a way that he seems to be losing himself or any coherent vision.

hi guys
anyone wanna see my new guitar?

This is so cherry-picked (or I guess 'turd-picked'). The revived band's output is Zeitgeist, GLOW, and FOL? Sure, once we ignore the residency songs, Gossamer, American Gothic, live covers throughout 2008, live new songs in fall 2008, reworked old songs like Heavy Metal Machine and I Am One pt. 2, then Billy is a 'corporate pop rock single machine'. But...why exactly are we ignoring them?

This is so cherry-picked (or I guess 'turd-picked'). The revived band's output is Zeitgeist, GLOW, and FOL? Sure, once we ignore the residency songs, Gossamer, American Gothic, live covers throughout 2008, live new songs in fall 2008, reworked old songs like Heavy Metal Machine and I Am One pt. 2, then Billy is a 'corporate pop rock single machine'. But...why exactly are we ignoring them?

Sucking the devil's cock, then turning around and giving candy to children, does not change the fact you like to suck the devil's cock. :erm:

... or, in other words :

YouTube - Bill Hicks on rockstars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJOBE2DcOHM)

Every single one of you would forgive Billy immediately if his music didn't suck now.

...

...

Every single one of you would forgive Billy immediately if his music didn't suck now.

It goes hand in hand with everything I am saying.

His art suffers, because his energy is obviously no longer focused on creating art.

uh they were never really avant garde. but i think i know what you mean by that, and i don't think it'll ever happen again unless he moves into a parking garage, has his parents start treating him like shit again, and runs into some more cool james/d'arcy type people.

if he wants to be all porny and mansiony and ticketmastery that's fine, but he should retire from making music. a person with that lifestyle doesn't have much to say to the rest of us.

this may be true to an extent, but do you think thom yorke doesn't live in a 7 million dollar mansion?

retire from making music. a person with that lifestyle doesn't have much to say to the rest of us.

- mariner




excellently said.

- drunk me

:erm:... or, in other words :

YouTube - Bill Hicks on rockstars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJOBE2DcOHM)

The opening bit about cola advertising reminded me of this (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1584037/20080325/smashing_pumpkins.jhtml) :erm:

I could give a shit less what billy does in his personall time. He could be a child molesteing clown that fucks kids bu tmakes good music. Now he's only doing one of the 2.
My big problem with billy corga nthese days isn't the commericals, the 18 verisons of le giest, or the fact that james isnt in the band. My big problem with corgan is the fact that he just doesn't seem to give a shit abou this band any more. Say what you will but that whole 20th ann tour was the biggest fuck you ever. hardly caring versions of classics, the la rant about don't give up on us. HAve you ever been to a concert that's great where the artist begs you to stay ? No . Billy keeps saying this new stuff he's putting out is as relevant as old sp when we all know he's full of shit. He can't really like the shit he's putting out.

I saw that post about the new heavy metal and the new i am one part 2. And the reason i ignore them is because thier 35 minutes of peer concentrated goat shit. LIsten to that new bull shit heavy metal then listen to the bodukan show and tell me you'd rather here the new one. I am one 2 made me nearly fall asleep.

If billy wants to turn to shit and fizzle out that's fine, but please do it as a solo artist. The smashing pumpkins are his to fuck up, but i really wish he'd respect his "fans" enough to let it die with some fucking dignity.

Flame on netphoria

^ this guy also voted for george w. bush

Which should go far to prove that I am always right and should be taken seriously at all times. :)

But truthfully, I take the Pumpkins much more seriously than my politics. Besides, I have to be right about something don't I?

most ppl can't seperate the art from the artist.

billy's just the guy everyone loves to hate. no matter how many stupid things billy says or does or wears....it won't take away from the quality of his music. but it will give fodder for the journalists and people here. the media already figured out that trashing BC sells issues and gets website hits. so no surprise it generates msg board traffic as well.

I like you, but please, think twice before you post. The idea that "making fun of Billy Corgan is fun" is not some grand revelation. It's happened since 1988. The only difference is that back then, the band had a sense of humor of its own, and everyone benefited. If you think this website sprung up or became popular for the sole purpose of "hating" Billy, then you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about, nor do you understand why most of us still care what this band does.

The initial post in this thread is slightly retarded, I admit. But it seems short-sighted to me to dismiss the argument that Billy's music is suffering because he has no fucking idea what to do with it or who is listening to it. At least we can all admit it's limiting what we get to hear, and possibly keeping some really good tracks (or decent mixes) from us.

Billy's floundering on these issues only makes things worse, and opens him up to making decisions that really do affect our enjoyment (i.e. I'm going to charge $100 for an anniversary show in which I tell you how much you suck). I enjoyed hearing I Am One Pt. 2 as much as the next rabid fan, but it was an imperfect evening, and that is not my fault.

It seems people like you love to blame the fans or the media for the band's troubles, but we don't make the music. And it seems a majority of fans agree that music is not as consistently good as it used to be, and some of it is really questionable.

Davin, I honestly do look forward to reading your inevitable track-by-track worshipping of Zeigeist at the o-board. Nothing gets a good laugh from me like talking about how its "ferocious drumming" and "cutthroat rock n' roll!" makes it equal to the band's work in the past. We will stick with some real cultural criticism and actual independence here, even if it is put through the internet's usual idiocy-filter.

I go on this rant because this weekend I've been listening to Zeitgeist the song over and over again, because I am struck by how beautiful the band's simple ideas are if you strip away everything else from them.

Ever wonder why Billy is so fixated on this old-record-business style of marketing? Could it be to support his nearly $7 million (http://lakeco.blockshopper.com/news/story/206733-Rocker_Billy_Corgan_buys_in_Highland_Park) mansion and estate (http://forums.netphoria.org/smashing-pumpkins-billy-corgan-discussion/165462-billys-mansion.html#post3450970)?
No, I'm sure he could have bought 20 and more of those any time he wanted before the release of Zeitgeist. 7 Million is going to be a very pitiful amount compared to what he already has in the bank. As far as full out mansions go, that piece of property isn't even exceptionally huge or glamorous. What's surprised me in the past was that he didn't own a few of them earlier. I know I sure would have been buying them.

It's definitely not to support his practically volunteer based website (the webmaster in a podcast said he barely gets paid anything). Maybe it's to support his high rolling, porn star gala life style (http://forums.netphoria.org/smashing-pumpkins-billy-corgan-discussion/165543-billy-hangs-out-sasha-grey.html)?

No, he could surely already afford to "high-roll" for the next thousand years if that's what he was after, and I don't think Billy had to pay to hang out with Miss Grey. Billy can't be friends with other celebrities now? Wasn't Johnny Depp hanging out while they were recording MCIS, and hasn't he been seen with tons of famous people? Are those all scandals too? Who he hangs out with means jack shit.

TLDR

but i was very pleased to read that the removal of your post isn't gonna affect your post count.
those are the important things.

this may be true to an extent, but do you think thom yorke doesn't live in a 7 million dollar mansion?

I'm sure he does, so you're right, he's 'mansiony'. But he's not very 'porny' and 'ticketmastery'. Yorke has stuck through it all with his original band together, managed to let the band age gracefully, tried to carry himself with some class, and kept his pubic political/industry commentary consistent and reasonable.

Corgan just kinda flails all over the place for attention, talks a big game and almost never backs it up, and gets in bed with the very people that for two decades he's been accusing of ruining his beloved industry and musical community. Not to mention hanging out with all sorts people with ugly, trashy, disposable public personas.


and yeah, the music is far below what i believe corgan could be capable of if he got his head on straight.

billy is 40+
stop pretending he is gonna keep fighting "the man"

this may be true to an extent, but do you think thom yorke doesn't live in a 7 million dollar mansion?
Yorke released a free album.

Corgan released multiple versions of the same album with alternate materials and things like "Best Buy Exclusives."

I'm no fan of Radiohead's music, but their fans can't complain.

billy is 40+
stop pretending he is gonna keep fighting "the man"

If you can't beat them, join them.

I like you, but please, think twice before you post. The idea that "making fun of Billy Corgan is fun" is not some grand revelation. It's happened since 1988. The only difference is that back then, the band had a sense of humor of its own, and everyone benefited. If you think this website sprung up or became popular for the sole purpose of "hating" Billy, then you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about, nor do you understand why most of us still care what this band does.

The initial post in this thread is slightly retarded, I admit. But it seems short-sighted to me to dismiss the argument that Billy's music is suffering because he has no fucking idea what to do with it or who is listening to it. At least we can all admit it's limiting what we get to hear, and possibly keeping some really good tracks (or decent mixes) from us.

Billy's floundering on these issues only makes things worse, and opens him up to making decisions that really do affect our enjoyment (i.e. I'm going to charge $100 for an anniversary show in which I tell you how much you suck). I enjoyed hearing I Am One Pt. 2 as much as the next rabid fan, but it was an imperfect evening, and that is not my fault.

It seems people like you love to blame the fans or the media for the band's troubles, but we don't make the music. And it seems a majority of fans agree that music is not as consistently good as it used to be, and some of it is really questionable.

Davin, I honestly do look forward to reading your inevitable track-by-track worshipping of Zeigeist at the o-board. Nothing gets a good laugh from me like talking about how its "ferocious drumming" and "cutthroat rock n' roll!" makes it equal to the band's work in the past. We will stick with some real cultural criticism and actual independence here, even if it is put through the internet's usual idiocy-filter.

I go on this rant because this weekend I've been listening to Zeitgeist the song over and over again, because I am struck by how beautiful the band's simple ideas are if you strip away everything else from them.

i never said the negative press is why this site exists. i am just saying its bound to generate posts like the one that started this thread, from time to time, as a natural reaction to the type of news stories that get printed about BC. and the initial post is DEFINITELY retarded. no question.

i don't think billy has ever really been "in touch". he's just always done what he has wanted to do, and sometimes its more accepted and it "fits" with the mainstream, and sometimes it does not. Gish, SD, Adore, Machina and Zeitgeist didn't fit. And in the days of Gish, not fitting was a good thing. Only MCIS "fit" from day 1 because it was so diverse it covered all the bases, and because the band's success and popularity made it highly anticipated (and prejudged in a positive way) by everyone. SD eventually fit, but only in retrospect of course when reviewers realized they made a mistake. (see this post, and many 93 reviews of SD to see my point: NYT: “Siamese Dream” lacked “zeitgeist-defining edge” Hipsters United // a blog about the Smashing Pumpkins (http://hipstersunited.com/blog/archives/2007/09/nyt-siamese-dream-lacked-zeitgeist-defining-edge.html))

Seems to me none of the haters will really know if they like Zeitgeist or not, until the dust settles and some time passes. If the next album sux they will procalim it should be more like Zeitgeist. Just like we saw with MSOTS when TFE came out. Zeitgeist was probably pre-judged to be negative as much as MCIS was pre-judged to be positive.

And Slurpee, i can't believe you're going to take an awesome 50+ song, two-day anniv show and reduce it to the banter and I Am One Part II? You must have been sleepign during Bodies, Cupid, Crestfallen, Soma, Siva, all the brand new material, US, Gossamer, and everything else that I"m glossing over. Don't make me post the entire 2 day set here just to drive home the fact that it was in fact an awesome representation of all albums, all eras, and all styles. Because it was. Regardless of what you thought of the stupid banter and album sales comments.

And yes, i believe zeitgeist fits in amicably with the band's catalog. i won't get into a debate about where i place it in my album ratings specifically, but the fact remains...it fits. not just because of the flawless drumming, awesome guitar and rockin' aspects (which you claim are not enough)...but because these are the songs that carried the most passion on stage. sure it was great to hear mayo and soma, but they didn't sound as passionate as they did in 93 (nor would i expect them to). reason being people age and move on, so its only inherent that most of the passion was tied up in the newer songs, which helped drive them home for me. because while i certainly don't "connect" to the zeitgeist material as much on a lyrical or emtional level (compared to the old), i do connect with them on a musical and performance level.

Finally, yes zeitgeist is an awesome song. but the reason (i think) artists like BC and Trent put so much into their songs lately, is because when you're a successful artist and a veteran, people are less forgiving with simple stripped-down songs that may have once been praised but now, later in their careers, be considered self-indulgent. so they tend to lean towards making them more complex...like stuff on Year Zero of Tarantula. I mean, if billy released Soothe as track 1 on Zeitgeist people would have called him a self-indulgent prick. "Who does he think he is?" blah, blah blah. But as a b-side, like the song Zeitgeist, these kinda songs tend to work out much better.

Ugh, can we put the ads back so we don't have to deal with this shit again.

what do the ads have to do with anything? i've been a paid lifetime member for a while.

just been busy.

Can we refund davins membership and put the ads back up please.

quit acting like you didn't miss me.

rep me or something a few times, you'll feel better that i'm back.

Yorke released a free album.

Corgan released multiple versions of the same album with alternate materials and things like "Best Buy Exclusives."

I'm no fan of Radiohead's music, but their fans can't complain.

Let's face it. Being Thom Yorke is a lot easier than being Billy Corgan. Comparing the two isn't fair. If Thom Yorke's honeymoon with the mass music media were to ever end, then he might get a little whiny and desperate too. As it is, Yorke draws widespread praise and is held as some kind of trailblazer for his every move...even when, in the case of the free album, it's a move that other people (like Billy) have done long before him. Who has more right to be bitter, the guy who is told repeatedly that everything he touches turns to gold...or the guy who is told that everything he touches turns to shit?

Is there really anything that has actually stopped Billy from going down the same road as Thom Yorke, Trent Reznor, etc. (basically, Billy's musical cohorts) in terms of pursuing his art and his fanbase in a similar way? The difference is that they seem to have created and maintained healthy relationships with those two elements, but Billy has not. It seems that many of Billy's musical peers have learned to let go of some of the expectations about mass popularity and profit that Billy has not...and as a result, they seem to actually be achieving a stable, more robust level of success. It is clear that Billy felt he needed to adopt a different strategy from his peers to try and maintain standing in the music business--one which is more, well...outwardly business-centered. Especially distressing IMO is his increasingly Bush-eque approach to dealing with any kind of perceived criticism: not only ignore it, but use your agents to actively and aggressively suppress it. That's fucking immature, even for an excessively insecure individual. And despite age it ironically seems to be growing worse. Grow some balls, man. Billy only throws fuel on the fire in how he chooses to handle himself and the criticism leveled at him, exacerbating whatever preexisting negative perceptions there are.

I don't remember Trent or Yorke ever cursing their fans.