This is Hezbollah vs. Lebanon all over again, unless Israel wants to actually win and eradicate Hamas completely (ie carpet bomb Palestine).

It's weird how people still aren't getting the fact that bombing a country only creates more terrorists.

It's weird how people still aren't getting the fact that bombing a country only creates more terrorists.

I've never heard anyone say this isn't the case?

Well it certainly hasn't stopped nation states from executing military actions against terrorist organizations by BOMBING THE FUCK OUT OF ANOTHER NATION STATE.

I mean yes, everyone agrees with me right? A rational, obvious thing to say: wide scale military operations carried out against a nation, endangering the lives of innocents and children, instead of the terrorist organization because you're too lazy and cheap to actually take security and police actions seriously creates terrorists. Simple concept, yeah. It is. Except Israel and many of its citizens don't get it at all, apparently.

Neither does America, for that matter.

I mean think about what would happen if instead of just trying to beef up security and go into peace talks and ferret out the high ranking organizers of the IRA Britain just bombed the living fuck out of Ireland. I mean that would just be a great big mess, wouldn't it? Obviously. Jesus Christ.

And yes, Israel's done all this, but continues to act as if shooting missiles at their neighbors shouldn't set back the arduous peace process. They exist in this total vacuum where they act like there are no consequences with their actions and rather than realizing that this shit takes decades of honest-to-god sacrifice they'd rather shoot missiles at their neighbors because, after all, the United States has their back no matter how obnoxious and awful they are.

Israel should be wiped off the map.

^ This.

Israel should be wiped off the map.
Why stop there? Let's wipe all of the theocracies.

I mean think about what would happen if instead of just trying to beef up security and go into peace talks and ferret out the high ranking organizers of the IRA Britain just bombed the living fuck out of Ireland. I mean that would just be a great big mess, wouldn't it? Obviously. Jesus Christ.

And yes, Israel's done all this, but continues to act as if shooting missiles at their neighbors shouldn't set back the arduous peace process. They exist in this total vacuum where they act like there are no consequences with their actions and rather than realizing that this shit takes decades of honest-to-god sacrifice they'd rather shoot missiles at their neighbors because, after all, the United States has their back no matter how obnoxious and awful they are.:rock_on:

Why stop there? Let's wipe all of the theocracies.

I'm all for it.

I think the attitude our generation has towards Israel is pretty different than what our parents' generation sees. I know a lot of younger people that view Israel as a rogue state, or think it is just as bad as Palestine, but I don't think I have ever heard anyone of my parents' age express this view. My father is Jewish but always talks about how much he disdains all organized religion and learned to hate Judaism because of all the religious schooling he was forced to endure as a child, and he will still argue with me bitterly that Israel has an absolute right to exist and to protect itself and that I just don't understand.

My parents are in their mid sixties and they agree with me

What was Israel supposed to do? Hamas ripped up the cease fire and launched rockets into them.

I guess they should just say "Oh well" and take it.

Hamas is a terrorist organization not a nation state.

Refer to the IRA example I mentioned above. The IRA has a political wing called Sinn Fein that carries seats in Irish Parliament.

My parents are in their mid sixties and they agree with me

Oh well in that case!

I think it's a combination of what redbull was talking about and just the general popular opinion in the US shifting a little further away from the whole unconditional positive regard for Israel of the past. That said, I still know plenty of people who stand behind Israel no matter what.

I agree with what Trots is saying about the difference between a nation and a terrorist group. This is basically why the war in Iraq failed. You can't fight an organization (or idea/belief, for that matter) the same way you would fight a nation state. A significant number of Middle Easterners associate much more with their religious or ethnic group than the country they reside in. The Bush administration just refuses to accept that.

Israel should be wiped off the map.

^

I agree with what Trots is saying about the difference between a nation and a terrorist group. This is basically why the war in Iraq failed. You can't fight an organization (or idea/belief, for that matter) the same way you would fight a nation state.

Oh wow.

Um. That wasn't about the war on terror. I know they made it seem like it was, but it was not. It was a traditional war against a nation-state with a dictator...

then it all went to hell and they said something about Al-Qaeda and it worked, apparently...

Um. That wasn't about the war on terror. I know they made it seem like it was, but it was not. It was a traditional war against a nation-state with a dictator...


For the first few weeks it was. Once the government was toppled and Saddam was ousted we started fighting militant religious groups, most of which had no affiliation with the prior government. We haven't been fighting "Iraq" since 2003.

Yeah but that wasn't what they expected at all. America created a terrorist front by toppling the government and creating a vacuum.

We didn't start the war to fight a terrorist group was my point so bringing Iraq into this is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Also, we didn't carpet bomb Falluja, and part of the reason the war was such a clusterfuck was because after the government fell there were several different groups fighting amongst each other and the Americans and we didn't know who they were or who was organizing them. In fact, I clearly remember Bush saying that the Iraqi National Guard "vanished" demonstrating the low level of understanding of the entire Administration.

Though I seem to be under the impression that Petraeus' plan worked for the most part, due in part of actually starting to understand that this is more of a police action then a traditional war which underlines my point about wide-scale military operations as opposed to ferreting out threats. Some guy getting arrested and taken into custody under terrorism charges doesn't really create new terrorists. Shooting a missile and killing innocent civilians does.

I would think if a political party like Hamas has missiles the Israeli government would try to figure out who is giving them missiles and bring the whole western world down on top of them. But no, lets blow up the Gaza Strip instead.

I would think if a political party like Hamas has missiles the Israeli government would try to figure out who is giving them missiles and bring the whole western world down on top of them. But no, lets blow up the Gaza Strip instead.

^ :banging:

I would think if a political party like Hamas has missiles the Israeli government would try to figure out who is giving them missiles and bring the whole western world down on top of them. But no, lets blow up the Gaza Strip instead.

They probably got them from the US of A.

They probably got them from the US of A.

Probably Pakistan, but they surely are old US weapons.

Let's arm the world, it's still very dangerous place!

Probably Pakistan, but they surely are old US weapons.

Let's arm the world, it's still very dangerous place!

yep. I love how we are now arming Afghan civilians to fight against the Taliban. Someone remind me how the Taliban came to power in the first place.

































Oh, right.

They probably got them from the US of A.

Yeah I know it was kind of a rhetorical question.

Israel should be wiped off the map.
^
^

Obviously my "off the map" bit was a little tongue and cheek. However, as this progresses it is obvious that the Israelis our off their gourd here. I hope that they are held accountable for this - it's getting stupid.

So tanks are now in Gaza.

Strongly believe Iran will be launching some firepower toward Jerusalem soon now (they'd do this through Syria, most likely), since Israel is hellbent on ripping Gaza apart.

I hope these events embolden the Israelis and they go back into Lebanon. I look forward to Hezbollah slaughtering these animals once again.

http://www.arendt-art.de/deutsch/BILDER/index.14.JPG


thats all.

God damnit this pisses me off so much. I wish our government would fucking do something other than suck Israel's dick. This is fucking outrageous and there is nothing we can do.

God damnit this pisses me off so much. I wish our government would fucking do something

we disagree about so much. i wish our government would do nothing

nobody's called me out yet, i find that disconcerting.

http://www.arendt-art.de/deutsch/BILDER/index.14.JPG


thats all.

Reminds me of leprosy.

nobody's called me out yet, i find that disconcerting.

There wasn't anything you said that was out of line.

I don't know the history of the Middle East as well as some, but what I see is nations, nation-states and terrorist organizations acting like damned children towards each other. The US is obviously a friend of Israel and pathetically feigns interest in Palestine.

I just don't see the point of us giving Israel so much damn money. We're not getting anything out of it are we? I reference this (http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf):

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. From 1976-2004, Israel was the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance, having recently been supplanted by Iraq. Since 1985, the United States has provided nearly $3 billion in grants annually to Israel.

We're staying on the good side of Jesus, dude.

God damnit this pisses me off so much. I wish our government would fucking do something other than suck Israel's dick. This is fucking outrageous and there is nothing we can do.

you want the government to do something but at the same time realize that there's nothing we can do. which is it?

We're staying on the good side of Jesus, dude.

Can we stop doing it now that the godless Democrats are in power?

you want the government to do something but at the same time realize that there's nothing we can do. which is it?

I think he's saying that there is nothing "we" can do as individual Americans disagreeing with Israel's actions.

I just don't see the point of us giving Israel so much damn money. We're not getting anything out of it are we? I reference this (http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf):

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. From 1976-2004, Israel was the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance, having recently been supplanted by Iraq. Since 1985, the United States has provided nearly $3 billion in grants annually to Israel.

Jewish lobbyists in the U.S. have a large stake in the survival of Israel, and of course the evangelicals believe it's in part the U.S.'s job to keep the Holy Land out of the hands of the evil non-believers. Not to mention Israel is one of the few Middle-Eastern powers that is truly friendly to the U.S. All these facts combined equals heaps of cash and weapons technology year in and year out to keep Israel artificially maintained. If it wasn't for this huge investment by the U.S. in Israel, it would collapse like a house of cards.

what is the difference between nation building and supporting terrorism

Population of Gaza is 1,500,000. 500 have been killed as of 1/6.

Israel's population is 7,184,000.

Israel hit 4 UN buildings today in strikes, killing dozens of civilians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Gaza_Strip_map.png/492px-Gaza_Strip_map.png

the amount of killing that is going on in such a small area is terrifying. the gaza-israel border is only 32 miles long

I think he's saying that there is nothing "we" can do as individual Americans disagreeing with Israel's actions.

yes, that is what I was saying

There wasn't anything you said that was out of line.

Yeah but Hamas has been shooting missiles and the Gaza Strip hasn't played ball with police actions. Is Israel just supposed to shrug their shoulders at the missiles and just let themselves get blow'd up? I mean. Hamas is the ruling party of a "sovereign" nation, sorta-kinda. It's not like the IRA which had car bombs and a minority party in the Irish parliament. So I don't even know why Trotskilicious makes that comparison, the fat asshole.

I'm going to argue with myself just for the sake of it.

yes, that is what I was saying

what can out government do?

Jewish lobbyists in the U.S. have a large stake in the survival of Israel, and of course the evangelicals believe it's in part the U.S.'s job to keep the Holy Land out of the hands of the evil non-believers. Not to mention Israel is one of the few Middle-Eastern powers that is truly friendly to the U.S. All these facts combined equals heaps of cash and weapons technology year in and year out to keep Israel artificially maintained. If it wasn't for this huge investment by the U.S. in Israel, it would collapse like a house of cards.

how are muslims evil non-believers but jews are not?

^ YOU FUCKING NAZI!!!!! ^

Yeah but Hamas has been shooting missiles and the Gaza Strip hasn't played ball with police actions. Is Israel just supposed to shrug their shoulders at the missiles and just let themselves get blow'd up? I mean. Hamas is the ruling party of a "sovereign" nation, sorta-kinda. It's not like the IRA which had car bombs and a minority party in the Irish parliament. So I don't even know why Trotskilicious makes that comparison, the fat asshole.

I'm going to argue with myself just for the sake of it.

This conflict is probably one of the international things I know least about, so I tend to keep any thoughts to myself because they are not researched much at all.

That said, Israeli has had no choice in the actions from the past week and a half. Hamas for six months (since the treaty being expired) has sent missile after missile every single day into Israeli neighborhoods. You can't compare death tolls because the Israeli infrastructure is designed with tunnels to protect from shelling/bombing. Gaza neighborhoods are more like ghettos were thousands of people live in one three-story shack.

Is Israeli wrong for an all-out assault on Gaza, killing civilians? Certainly. But they have no choice in retaliating after Hamas' actions in the past few months.

This conflict is probably one of the international things I know least about

Agreed.

so I tend to keep any thoughts to myself because they are not researched much at all.

That said, Israeli has had no choice in the actions from the past week and a half. Hamas for six months (since the treaty being expired) has sent missile after missile every single day into Israeli neighborhoods. You can't compare death tolls because the Israeli infrastructure is designed with tunnels to protect from shelling/bombing. Gaza neighborhoods are more like ghettos were thousands of people live in one three-story shack.

Is Israeli wrong for an all-out assault on Gaza, killing civilians? Certainly. But they have no choice in retaliating after Hamas' actions in the past few months.

Um, No. There was a six month cease-fire (June-November 2008). It was nearing expiration and then Israel raided Gaza (Nov) . Rocket fire then resumed. As a result of that, we now have Operation Cast Lead

Timeline (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3999301/Gaza-conflict-timeline.html)

/shrapnel 4 all

Yeah but Hamas has been shooting missiles and the Gaza Strip hasn't played ball with police actions. Is Israel just supposed to shrug their shoulders at the missiles and just let themselves get blow'd up? I mean. Hamas is the ruling party of a "sovereign" nation, sorta-kinda. It's not like the IRA which had car bombs and a minority party in the Irish parliament. So I don't even know why Trotskilicious makes that comparison, the fat asshole.

I'm going to argue with myself just for the sake of it.

You're just making the comparison because as far as political parties/terrorist organizations goes, the IRA is probably one of the most well known.

And yes, you're right, Israel is somewhat justified in their actions as I'm sure Hamas is somewhat justified for theirs. It's just a clusterfuck over there, that's all. As nimrod mentioned, I wish our government would do nothing. It's good money we should be spending on ourselves or just not at all.

what can out government do?
Our government could force Israel to get the fuck out of Gaza if it wanted. As has been mentioned it was Israel's invasion of Gaza in November that led up to Hamas firing rockets across the border to begin with. Of course this whole fucking country is so far up Israel's ass this would never happen.

how are muslims evil non-believers but jews are not?

The short answer is because Jews are white. I think Christians see Jews as sort of proto-Christians. Jesus was a Jew after all. But Muslims... They might as well be from a different planet.

Israel was the one who broke the ceasefire first:

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Fuck the zionist propaganda machine. At least SOME other viewpoints make it to the MSM.

Anyone in the conflict, I don't care which side they are, who is killing civilians - even putting them in harm's way - is wrong. Anyone who is not acting purely in defence is wrong.

Israel's wrongs are, no question, way more obvious. They are an occupying force and have been for decades. They have no right to that land and Palestinian resistance is completely justified. However, killing civilians and tourists is not.

Any Palestinian who can demonstrate they have a parcel of land or property that has been occupied by Israel DOES have every right to (upon asking for a reasonable time period for the current occupier to leave) use force to take back their land - including lethal force. The occupiers of that land, even if they are just families, are not innocent - they are squatters and should be removed by force.

Any Palestinian who can demonstrate they have a parcel of land or property that has been occupied by Israel DOES have every right to (upon asking for a reasonable time period for the current occupier to leave) use force to take back their land - including lethal force. The occupiers of that land, even if they are just families, are not innocent - they are squatters and should be removed by force.

:confused:
you just justified palestinians killing children in an attempt to 'reclaim what is theirs'..

Wouldn't the most moral and, equally beneficial, thing to do is move on with your life. You could use the same argument to give Native Americans the absolute right to go around slaughtering Americans who happen to be 'on their land'. I hardly think that is the way to go... especially considering what would happen if they did it. It's not in their best interest to do so.

Anyone in the conflict, I don't care which side they are, who is killing civilians - even putting them in harm's way - is wrong. Anyone who is not acting purely in defence is wrong.

Israel's wrongs are, no question, way more obvious. They are an occupying force and have been for decades. They have no right to that land and Palestinian resistance is completely justified. However, killing civilians and tourists is not.

Any Palestinian who can demonstrate they have a parcel of land or property that has been occupied by Israel DOES have every right to (upon asking for a reasonable time period for the current occupier to leave) use force to take back their land - including lethal force. The occupiers of that land, even if they are just families, are not innocent - they are squatters and should be removed by force.


:think:

The United States' wrongs are, no question, way more obvious. They are an occupying force and have been for decades. They have no right to that land and Native American resistance is completely justified. However, killing civilians and tourists is not.

Any Native American who can demonstrate they have a parcel of land or property that has been occupied by the United States DOES have every right to (upon asking for a reasonable time period for the current occupier to leave) use force to take back their land - including lethal force. The occupiers of that land, even if they are just families, are not innocent - they are squatters and should be removed by force.

how are muslims evil non-believers but jews are not?

Because....


The short answer is because Jews are white. I think Christians see Jews as sort of proto-Christians. Jesus was a Jew after all. But Muslims... They might as well be from a different planet.

^

It's mostly about white guilt, but you can quote a teenager if you want.

It's mostly about white guilt, but you can quote a teenager if you want.

There's this, too. But what redbreegull said does have some merit, teenager-ness notwithstanding.

Well, militants in Lebanon have thrown themselves into the mix and have started firing rockets into northern Israel.

Rockets from Lebanon hit Israel - Israel-Palestinians- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637)

:apopcorn:

:confused:
you just justified palestinians killing children in an attempt to 'reclaim what is theirs'..

Wouldn't the most moral and, equally beneficial, thing to do is move on with your life. You could use the same argument to give Native Americans the absolute right to go around slaughtering Americans who happen to be 'on their land'. I hardly think that is the way to go... especially considering what would happen if they did it. It's not in their best interest to do so.

THE CHILDREN!

Yes I did. They have a right to kill people who refuse to leave their property. However, you didn't seem to read the fine print of my post: "who can demonstrate they have a parcel of land or property." I do not support blanket killing - but a person who has had THEIR land stolen and can prove it.

Obviously they can't just go around firing rockets and blowing up kids. Kids can definitely be removed without lethal force.

Re: native americans...

:think:

The United States' wrongs are, no question, way more obvious. They are an occupying force and have been for decades. They have no right to that land and Native American resistance is completely justified. However, killing civilians and tourists is not.

Any Native American who can demonstrate they have a parcel of land or property that has been occupied by the United States DOES have every right to (upon asking for a reasonable time period for the current occupier to leave) use force to take back their land - including lethal force. The occupiers of that land, even if they are just families, are not innocent - they are squatters and should be removed by force.

Any Native American also has the right to use lethal force (if necessary) to take back any land or property that was stolen from him/her by the government or individuals. I suspect there is no one left alive who could make such a claim, but if they were - they have this right.

Is it so radical that people who have been stolen from have the right to get back what is theirs?

in this thread it looks like few people need to have some rockets shot into their backyard.

Now, is that before or after they sneak into the yard where the rockets would come from, on an assassination raid?

Cause we have to remember, Israel committed the first act of hostility here. You could say Hamas was merely defending its sovereignity, along the same lines as its being said that Israel is defending itself by bombing Gaza - due to rocket fire which Israel cause by breaking the cease-fire with that cross-boarder assassination raid.

Maybe some people need to experience a deal-breaking assassination in their home.

Or maybe some people here need to break a deal by committing an assassination, and have rockets shot into their backyard as a result? It doesn't fully have the same effect when it's said like that.

pretty fucking stupid thing to say all the way around ropes

of course that's about par for the course with you isn't it

There's over 700 Palestinians dead in barely two weeks. How is this not a massacre by Israel?

Israel and Palestine both suck. Maybe they can blow each other up and the world will be rid of these retards who can't figure out a way to live together decade after decade.

You can't place the blame on any one side, but I must too say that I tire of the US, yes, sucking Israel's cock. All of the other westernized nations pretty much stopped supporting them, maybe the US should get a clue.

WRMEA: U.S. Aid to Israel (http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm)

Anyone can ask one of their representatives in Congress for a chart prepared by the Congressional Research Service, a branch of the Library of Congress, that shows Israel received $62.5 billion in foreign aid from fiscal year 1949 through fiscal year 1996. People in the national capital area also can visit the library of the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) in Rosslyn, Virginia, and obtain the same information, plus charts showing how much foreign aid the U.S. has given other countries as well.

Visitors will learn that in precisely the same 1949-1996 time frame, the total of U.S. foreign aid to all of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined was $62,497,800,000--almost exactly the amount given to tiny Israel.

According to the Population Reference Bureau of Washington, DC, in mid-1995 the sub-Saharan countries had a combined population of 568 million. The $24,415,700,000 in foreign aid they had received by then amounted to $42.99 per sub-Saharan African.

Similarly, with a combined population of 486 million, all of the countries of Latin America and the Caribbean together had received $38,254,400,000. This amounted to $79 per person.

The per capita U.S. foreign aid to Israel's 5.8 million people during the same period was $10,775.48. This meant that for every dollar the U.S. spent on an African, it spent $250.65 on an Israeli, and for every dollar it spent on someone from the Western Hemisphere outside the United States, it spent $214 on an Israeli.

Disgusting.

<img src=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/UltimateThor/civilwar2.gif>

I have to know what movie this is from.

I hate the support for Israel

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/1/9/1231492008140/The-body-of-a-child-is-re-001.jpg

I have to know what movie this is from.

Probably Girl next door

and it's about time to kill that sig, Civil War has been over for over a year now.

I hate the support for Israel

Hamas has never targetted a school, or shot rockets from schools as a shield.

I'm not saying Israel is innocent, but let's get some perspective.

I hate the support for Israel

who is supporting Israel?

I also do not conclude that since you don't like Israel, you are pro-Hamas.

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Probably Girl next door

and it's about time to kill that sig, Civil War has been over for over a year now.

No. It is too awesome to kill.

I think the attitude our generation has towards Israel is pretty different than what our parents' generation sees. I know a lot of younger people that view Israel as a rogue state, or think it is just as bad as Palestine, but I don't think I have ever heard anyone of my parents' age express this view.

funny, quite often it's the exact opposite here

solidarity with palestine!

Hamas has never targetted a school, or shot rockets from schools as a shield.

I'm not saying Israel is innocent, but let's get some perspective.

perspective: israel has killed 277 palestinian children so far in 2.5 weeks.

This situation is just fucking disgusting, I fail to see how anyone can support this. I go on facebook and see all these fucking idiot Jewish girls I knew from high school donating their statuses to those poor 15 Israelis who have died. I fucking want to kill them.

perspective: israel has killed 277 palestinian children so far in 2.5 weeks.
hey ryan patrick, do you think that Hamas cares about their own people - Palestinians? Do you think that Israel goes after these kids like that? Wouldn't it be maybe somehow linked to the locations of Hamas' stuff?

hey ryan patrick, do you think that Hamas cares about their own people - Palestinians? Do you think that Israel goes after these kids like that? Wouldn't it be maybe somehow linked to the locations of Hamas' stuff?

Well, that makes it ok then.

hey ryan patrick, do you think that Hamas cares about their own people - Palestinians? Do you think that Israel goes after these kids like that? Wouldn't it be maybe somehow linked to the locations of Hamas' stuff?

none of these arguments really go anywhere because they don't really address a more central issue: that if it's the goal of Hamas to have civilians killed to further the cause of radical Islam vs. Israel then shouldn't Israel be smart enough to not fall into that trap? is the current approach fruitful for Israel? killing Hamas fighters is pointless when you're validating the Hamas viewpoint that Israel murders Palestinian civilians and therefore Hamas can easily recruit replacements for the dead within 6 months of the end of this campaign. a new approach is needed.

Well, that makes it ok then.No, it doesn't. But observing how it is going in this thread, I can see why Israel doesn't even bother anymore trying to explain, defend their actions to anyone. It is a futile effort. Your pseudo-humanistic talk from across the ocean wouldn't stop Hamas shooting the rockets. When Israel went to Lebanon in 2006, the Hezbollah attacks stopped coming afterwards.

I am not cheering for Israel, but you guys don't want to see Hamas and their actions for some reason. Or do you think Israel is in Gaza just because they like fighting and killing innocents? I just agree that country has its right to protect itself and its citizens. Again, what would you guys do if Canada or Mexico started shooting rockets into the US?

the proportional evil of Israel is much greater than Hamas currently.

the proportional evil of Israel is much greater than Hamas currently.should Israel wait till Hamas-launched rockets kill 50 Israelis, so they can cross the border and kill 50 Palestinians?

This is now a regular war with everything that comes with it. It is not an excuse for war crimes, but shit happens, especially in some densely urbanized areas like Gaza.
How to fight an urban war without civilian casualties? Hamas knows this is impossible, and obviously more civilians Israel kills, the better for Palestine/Hamas in the eyes of the world. I am equally horrified by the apparent willingness of Hamas to betray their own people.

should Israel wait till Hamas-launched rockets kill 50 Israelis, so they can cross the border and kill 50 Palestinians?

no, they should try to not maim and murder people left and right. wtf?

This is now a regular war with everything that comes with it. It is not an excuse for war crimes, but shit happens, especially in some densely urbanized areas like Gaza.
How to fight an urban war without civilian casualties? Hamas knows this is impossible, and obviously more civilians Israel kills, the better for Palestine/Hamas in the eyes of the world. I am equally horrified by the apparent willingness of Hamas to betray their own people.

none of this justifies what israel is doing and besides you could make the same point the other way around

shit happens

<fsdfdfsddsf>

none of this justifies what israel is doing and besides you could make the same point the other way around
ropey is not condoning, just saying that you can't put the blame on anyone in particular and gently exit saying "i've solved this issue, thanks, bye"

i think we call this devil's advocate

RopeyLopey, maybe terrorist groups like Hamas wouldn't ever even start firing rockets if Israel would keep to its fucking word. Israel broke the ceasefire first by entering into Gaza.

no, they should try to not maim and murder people left and right. wtf?



none of this justifies what israel is doing and besides you could make the same point the other way aroundexactly! Then why is everyone vilifying Israel and not Hamas as well?

It is as if you had let's say two brothers, where the younger, smaller one (Hamas) is constantly teasing the bigger one (Israel). The older one lets it go for a while, but then at one moment when enough is enough, he goes after the younger one to stop it. At that moment the younger one starts screaming ' Mother! Father! He is going to hit me!' and everyone condemns the older one for apparently going after the weaker one, while that one is laughing at the older one behind parents' back.

exactly! Then why is everyone vilifying Israel and not Hamas as well?

It is as if you had let's say two brothers, where the younger, smaller one (Hamas) is constantly teasing the bigger one (Israel). The older one lets it go for a while, but then at one moment when enough is enough, he goes after the younger one to stop it. At that moment the younger one starts screaming ' Mother! Father! He is going to hit me!' and everyone condemns the older one for apparently going after the weaker one, while that one is laughing at the older one behind parents' back.

Everyone already knows that Hamas is an evil terrorist organization. But most people in this country think that Israel has some fucking divine right to exist or some shit. No one needs to say that Hamas is evil, everyone knows that.

RopeyLopey, maybe terrorist groups like Hamas wouldn't ever even start firing rockets if Israel would keep to its fucking word. Israel broke the ceasefire first by entering into Gaza. I read it was Hamas who said first they would not extend the ceasefire. Besides, was Hamas itself meeting the conditions of the ceasefire?
Also, ceasefire expired December 19, Israel entered Gaza after December 24. No?

exactly! Then why is everyone vilifying Israel and not Hamas as well?

It is as if you had let's say two brothers, where the younger, smaller one (Hamas) is constantly teasing the bigger one (Israel). The older one lets it go for a while, but then at one moment when enough is enough, he goes after the younger one to stop it. At that moment the younger one starts screaming ' Mother! Father! He is going to hit me!' and everyone condemns the older one for apparently going after the weaker one, while that one is laughing at the older one behind parents' back.

'exactly' what? that doesn't make any sense

what are you talking about? it's not about vilifying anyone. of course shooting those rockets is a horrible thing to do. hamas isn't laughing behind anybody's back. you're just going 'but, but hamas did something bad!' like we don't all know that, but it doesn't change the fact that what israel is doing is atrocious and completely unjustified and should be condemned and not excused just to let people know you're not a bleeding heart tree hugging hippie like the rest of us, getting our panties in a twist over some dead palestinians

if you want to make analogies, it's more like the big one is strangling and torturing the little one and when the little one makes a helpless attempt to fight back, the big one beats the little one to death as the parents go 'well he has the right to defend himself'

oh, america is so self-rigtheous, now that they pretend to live in a civilized way and everyone should immediately adopt their civilized manners.

yet america is the biggest influence on israel's behavior.

as chomsky has said, the best and most relevant (+ influential) criticism can only originate from within:

Combien de divisions*? (http://www.millebabords.org/spip.php?article10014)

(scroll down for english translation. this is written by an israeli journalist)

I read it was Hamas who said first they would not extend the ceasefire. Besides, was Hamas itself meeting the conditions of the ceasefire?
Also, ceasefire expired December 19, Israel entered Gaza after December 24. No?

Israel entered Gaza during a raid in November.

It is as if you had let's say two brothers, where the younger, smaller one (Hamas) is constantly teasing the bigger one (Israel).

this isn't really a fair comparison to try to make. first of all, Hamas isn't Palestine any more than the Mossad is Israel. if you don't recognize this is a conflict involves all the people of Israel and Palestine and Hamas is only one player in the conflict...

Probably Girl next door

and it's about time to kill that sig, Civil War has been over for over a year now.

I get way too much entertainment by seeing Elisha Cuthbert simulating getting railed from behind to let it go.

Israel entered Gaza during a raid in November.
Also, the Israeli military has admitted that the raid had been planned meticulously for six months, right down to launching the attack just before noon so that there were as many people in the street as possible.

Incidentally Hamas does not actually call for the destruction of Israel and has in fact been calling for a two state solution which happens to be the international consensus (save for of course Israel and the United States).

Just thought that myth needed to be dispelled before any fucking Israeli apologists start up with their ignorant bullshit as is so often the case.