View Full Version : religion thread


Luke de Spa
08-26-2008, 07:58 AM
jesus, lol

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Mo
08-26-2008, 08:01 AM
I hate Dawkins, but this is great.

???
08-26-2008, 08:03 AM
hey, he's alright! on second thoughts i think i'll invite him to my party

+rep dawkins

Luke de Spa
08-26-2008, 08:04 AM
the fart of god

???
08-26-2008, 08:11 AM
disappointed at the god turnout

???
08-26-2008, 08:12 AM
jews, anyone?

Hate the Hater
08-26-2008, 09:48 AM
mayday to thread

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 10:54 AM
I went to confession this morning. :)

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 10:55 AM
I went to confession this morning. :)

i've always thought this was an incredibly stupid practice.

Caine Walker
08-26-2008, 10:58 AM
reeeeaaally? why?

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 11:02 AM
reeeeaaally? why?

i don't see the point in some man interceding on your behalf. if god can forgive your sins because some priest asks him to, i'm sure he would do the same if you just sincerely told him yourself.

waltermcphilp
08-26-2008, 11:02 AM
your day isn't complete until you lie to a holy man.

Caine Walker
08-26-2008, 11:06 AM
i don't see the point in some man interceding on your behalf. if god can forgive your sins because some priest asks him to, i'm sure he would do the same if you just sincerely told him yourself.

yeah, well. that's christianity for you. :: shrug::

Mo
08-26-2008, 01:41 PM
I mean, really... how can you take this whole (Catholic?) confession shit seriously? Ugh. :S

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 01:48 PM
I could go into it, but I really don't feel like it, because you guys wouldn't have a serious discussion about it anyway....

waltermcphilp
08-26-2008, 01:56 PM
personally i feel a little better after a confession. like a fresh slate type deal.

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 01:57 PM
I could go into it, but I really don't feel like it, because you guys wouldn't have a serious discussion about it anyway....

oh that's B.S. i've got no issue with catholics on a personal level. i've been in catholic schools since i was 5. i am more than capable of discussing the finer points of it with you in a civil fashion.

Mo
08-26-2008, 01:59 PM
I could go into it, but I really don't feel like it, because you guys wouldn't have a serious discussion about it anyway....

Well, I was raised in a very Catholic environment and attend a Catholic school, so bring it on.
What convinces you to believe that telling an old man some stories about your "sins" will somehow wash them away trough Christ so you can go to heaven if you... etc pp. ?

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 02:00 PM
i think antipop and i could be friends :)

Fattening Ass
08-26-2008, 02:01 PM
i'd be more interested in an uncivil, fashion-less circle jerk conversation about god

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 02:01 PM
I can't answer this now, but I will once I get a moment of free time...

waltermcphilp
08-26-2008, 02:02 PM
Well, I was raised in a very Catholic environment and attend a Catholic school, so bring it on.
What convinces you to believe that telling an old man some stories about your "sins" will somehow wash them away trough Christ so you can go to heaven if you... etc pp. ?

i think its more for people to see a tangible person telling them they are forgiven. at least thats what i get out of it.

Cool As Ice Cream
08-26-2008, 02:03 PM
i think with confession the main point is not that the priest is able to ask god for forgiveness and then can pass the message to you or whatever. it's about you being able to confess the things you regret. probably isn't easy to do, but i can imagine it is a relief afterwards.

Fattening Ass
08-26-2008, 02:03 PM
<img src="http://www.bagofnothing.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/jesussaveslarge.jpg">

Fattening Ass
08-26-2008, 02:05 PM
<img src="http://esotericaofleesburg.com/jane/jesussavesP2Jtn.jpg">

GlasgowKiss
08-26-2008, 02:31 PM
i think with confession the main point is not that the priest is able to ask god for forgiveness and then can pass the message to you or whatever. it's about you being able to confess the things you regret. probably isn't easy to do, but i can imagine it is a relief afterwards.
fuck off

Mo
08-26-2008, 02:36 PM
i think its more for people to see a tangible person telling them they are forgiven. at least thats what i get out of it.

I don't know, after all the priests I got to know I can't see any one of them as a "moral leader" o.s.l.t. ever again, and that should be important if you confess your deepest regrets and "sins".

duovamp
08-26-2008, 02:43 PM
You can go west or east,
Confess your sins to a priest.
You can slay the wicked beast,
But you can't ignore my techno.

duovamp
08-26-2008, 02:45 PM
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Future Boy
08-26-2008, 02:51 PM
I could go into it, but I really don't feel like it, because you guys wouldn't have a serious discussion about it anyway....

Then dont bring it up you stupid bitch.

BumbleBeeMouth
08-26-2008, 02:59 PM
well arent you little miss fucking superior.

I love it when people call me thick, then i can justifiably hit them with my mushroom stamp of intellect.

lots of yous are pretty smart though. which is an interesting demographic considering we are/were pumpkin fans... apart from nimrods son?? was he ever?

D.
08-26-2008, 03:07 PM
*controversial post*

duovamp
08-26-2008, 03:11 PM
*barely relevant response*

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 03:12 PM
Ok...

The Sacrament of Confession is based around the Gospel passed from John, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23)

From the earliest recorded days of the church, this was done. The Fathers of the Church (those who were taught by the Apostles) followed Jesus's, and wrote about it. It wasn't until the Protestant Reformation a thousand years later that it was ever questioned.

God uses the priest to grant forgiveness, just as a person uses a pencil to write on paper. The pencil isn't doing the writing, it's the writer.

That's not to say that a person can't be forgiven without confession. If a person has <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_contrition">Perfect Contrition</a>, they're still obligated to go, but if you died right then, you wouldn't have to worry about those sins being on your soul.

I find that, personally, it makes me account for myself moreso than when I wasn't a Catholic. The idea that I'm having to say my sins outloud to someone acting for God makes them alot more real, and makes me alot more aware of them. While that theologically has nothing to do with the Sacrament, I think it's invaluable.

Mo
08-26-2008, 03:27 PM
post/av

/And yeah, chicks dig the Catholic guilt-trip. :noway:

Mablak
08-26-2008, 03:42 PM
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Holy shit, that background loop kind of sounds like something off of Adore.

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 04:00 PM
post/av

/And yeah, chicks dig the Catholic guilt-trip. :noway:

This was what I was talking about.

Later.

yo soy el mejor
08-26-2008, 04:08 PM
whats all this junk i hear about catholicism coinciding with guilt? :/

Mo
08-26-2008, 04:35 PM
After Catholic doctrine you are a sinner as soon as you are born (even though unbaptized babies don't go to hell no more, Ratzinger eliminated the limbo...), and only if you commit your life to Jesus, accept him as your savior, receive all the sacraments and confess all your sins, you will go to heaven.
That's quite a guilt trip to me.

waltermcphilp
08-26-2008, 04:38 PM
i'd like to think God doesn't care about rules and regulations so much as you just being a decent person. if every person had to be a "by the book" christian, there wouldn't be many people in heaven.

Mo
08-26-2008, 04:40 PM
I'd like to think God doesn't exist. And if he does, he obviously doesn't care.

Mablak
08-26-2008, 04:42 PM
Ok...

The Sacrament of Confession is based around the Gospel passed from John, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:2123)

From the earliest recorded days of the church, this was done. The Fathers of the Church (those who were taught by the Apostles) followed Jesus's, and wrote about it. It wasn't until the Protestant Reformation a thousand years later that it was ever questioned.

God uses the priest to grant forgiveness, just as a person uses a pencil to write on paper. The pencil isn't doing the writing, it's the writer.

That's not to say that a person can't be forgiven without confession. If a person has <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_contrition">Perfect Contrition</a>, they're still obligated to go, but if you died right then, you wouldn't have to worry about those sins being on your soul.

I find that, personally, it makes me account for myself moreso than when I wasn't a Catholic. The idea that I'm having to say my sins outloud to someone acting for God makes them alot more real, and makes me alot more aware of them. While that theologically has nothing to do with the Sacrament, I think it's invaluable.

So if you're a serial killer and happened to die right after confession, you would make it into heaven, while a generally good person who only once commits adultery and dies immediately after that would go to hell? Does a handicapped person who's unable to confess necessarily go to hell if they don't happen to have perfect contrition close to their time of death?

What possible reason is there for the existence of hell, damnation for eternity, when even God apparently grants that people can change from bad to good in an instant (confession)? Why does it appear that our actions are judged for a lifespan but don't matter for an eternity after that? Is God's judgment and punishment rational and moral, or do you simply assume all this mythology exists and do what you can to avoid hell, regardless of whether or not God and his rules are good or evil?

waltermcphilp
08-26-2008, 04:45 PM
"god is dead and here is the body to prove it"
"YOU JUST BLEW MY MIND!"

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somaziro
08-26-2008, 04:49 PM
So if you're a serial killer and happened to die right after confession, you would make it into heaven, while a generally good person who only once commits adultery and dies immediately after that would go to hell? Does a handicapped person who's unable to confess necessarily go to hell if they don't happen to have perfect contrition close to their time of death?

What possible reason is there for the existence of hell, damnation for eternity, when even God apparently grants that people can change from bad to good in an instant (confession)? Why does it appear that our actions are judged for a lifespan but don't matter for an eternity after that? Is God's judgment and punishment rational and moral, or do you simply assume all this mythology exists and do what you can to avoid hell, regardless of whether or not God and his rules are good or evil?

I don't think confession and repentance is about changing from bad to good, I think it is more about sincerely repenting for whatever bad stuff you did and asking God to forgive you... or something along those lines. I think the whole, "you are a murderer and all you have to do is say your sorry and get into heaven" argument assumes that an omnipotent being isn't going to know if you truly are sorry or not or if you are just saying this stuff to get out of going to hell... But then again if a truly omnipotent being is going to know if you truly are sorry, why do you have to go to a priest :think:

ps I am not religious.

Mablak
08-26-2008, 04:57 PM
I don't think confession and repentance is about changing from bad to good, I think it is more about sincerely repenting for whatever bad stuff you did and asking God to forgive you... or something along those lines. I think the whole, "you are a murderer and all you have to do is say your sorry and get into heaven" argument assumes that an omnipotent being isn't going to know if you truly are sorry or not or if you are just saying this stuff to get out of going to hell... But then again if a truly omnipotent being is going to know if you truly are sorry, why do you have to go to a priest :think:

ps I am not religious.

Even if a murderer genuinely is sorry which is what I was assuming, it is still mind boggling that they would go to heaven while a good person who doesn't have the chance to confess would go to hell.

ravenguy2000
08-26-2008, 04:57 PM
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/41/ichatimage891131384xf6.jpg

thanks digg :(

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 04:59 PM
Even if a murderer genuinely is sorry which is what I was assuming, it is still mind boggling that they would go to heaven while a good person who doesn't have the chance to confess would go to hell.

The assumption is that God is merciful and can decide to do whatever he wants.... I don't think the Catholic church says that if you do something and don't get to go to Confession, you automatically definitely go to hell.

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 05:01 PM
The assumption is that God is merciful and can decide to do whatever he wants.... I don't think the Catholic church says that if you do something and don't get to go to Confession, you automatically definitely go to hell.

so then why go to confession. just 'cause saying it out loud to a person makes you feel better about it? for closure? or what?

(i'm not being a dick, btw. trying to ask legit questions.)

somaziro
08-26-2008, 05:03 PM
The assumption is that God is merciful and can decide to do whatever he wants.... I don't think the Catholic church says that if you do something and don't get to go to Confession, you automatically definitely go to hell.

I am pretty sure you do, that is why there are chaplans (sp?) in wars (well in the old days) to hear people's last confession before they died so they could go to heaven.

somaziro
08-26-2008, 05:06 PM
so then why go to confession. just 'cause saying it out loud to a person makes you feel better about it? for closure? or what?

(i'm not being a dick, btw. trying to ask legit questions.)

Confession might be serve other purposes besides just as a ticket to get into heaven, for instance it might help people to move on from mistakes they have made instead of just holding them in which in terms of society as a whole is beneficial. Everyone knows the feeling they get when they finally get something off of their chest that has been bothering them. And the fact that priests keep whatever you tell them private only reinforces the fact that people could confess whatever they did, no matter how bad, and be able to begin the road of moving on.

Just a guess though, but it might serve the societal good as a whole to have people be in a more healthy state of mind.

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 05:07 PM
Confession might be serve other purposes besides just as a ticket to get into heaven, for instance it might help people to move on from mistakes they have made instead of just holding them in which in terms of society as a whole is beneficial. Everyone knows the feeling they get when they finally get something off of their chest that has been bothering them. And the fact that priests keep whatever you tell them private only reinforces the fact that people could confess whatever they did, no matter how bad, and be able to begin the road of moving on.

Just a guess though.

that's what i meant by asking if it just made people feel better about their transgressions.

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 05:10 PM
I am pretty sure you do, that is why there are chaplans (sp?) in wars (well in the old days) to hear people's last confession before they died so they could go to heaven.

It's important to confess if you can, yes, but God can do whatever he wants, no? It depends on the situation.

Eulogy, the importance is that when you confess, those mortal sins are forgiven and off the plate, so to speak. If you never go to confession, and never do penance for those since or are absolved from them, those sins are still on your soul.

But like i said, that's not to say that God wouldn't have mercy on someone who's not Catholic/Christian out of ignorance and has never been to confession.

somaziro
08-26-2008, 05:12 PM
Well, the point I was making was that it wasn't just about making people feel better, but that it impacted society as a whole to have people dealing with their issues. Although that might be what you meant, I don't know.

I was just trying to look at it from a societal point of view, ie how does confession make a society better, just because something has religious overtones, or was started for purportedly religious reasons, doesn't mean that its inception was in reality for practical reasons and there are good non-religious reasons for the practice. Circumcision comes to mind as an example.

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 05:13 PM
It's important to confess if you can, yes, but God can do whatever he wants, no? It depends on the situation.

Eulogy, the importance is that when you confess, those mortal sins are forgiven and off the plate, so to speak. If you never go to confession, and never do penance for those since or are absolved from them, those sins are still on your soul.

But like i said, that's not to say that God wouldn't have mercy on someone who's not Catholic/Christian out of ignorance and has never been to confession.

but someone who chose not to be a christian for any variety of reasons but still led a good life and was a good person would have mortal sins on his soul and be sent to the fiery pits of hell?

doesn't that seem fundamentally flawed?

somaziro
08-26-2008, 05:15 PM
but someone who chose not to be a christian for any variety of reasons but still led a good life and was a good person would have mortal sins on his soul and be sent to the fiery pits of hell?

doesn't that seem fundamentally flawed?

from our perspective. but a christian would probably argue that we can't know God's plan b/c we are just puney mortals.

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 05:18 PM
but someone who chose not to be a christian for any variety of reasons but still led a good life and was a good person would have mortal sins on his soul and be sent to the fiery pits of hell?

doesn't that seem fundamentally flawed?

It depends on why they choose not to be Christian.

And like I keep saying, God can do whatever he wants. No one really knows who goes to hell or heaven, which is why the only time you'll hear the Catholic Church say anything about either is when a person is Canonized. The Church never makes any judgement on who goes to hell, because the Church doesn't know who goes to hell.

All we do is follow the guidelines Jesus put out, and do the best we can.

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 05:20 PM
from our perspective. but a christian would probably argue that we can't know God's plan b/c we are just puney mortals.

That too.

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 05:22 PM
It depends on why they choose not to be Christian.

And like I keep saying, God can do whatever he wants. No one really knows who goes to hell or heaven, which is why the only time you'll hear the Catholic Church say anything about either is when a person is Canonized. The Church never makes any judgement on who goes to hell, because the Church doesn't know who goes to hell.

All we do is follow the guidelines Jesus put out, and do the best we can.


why should it matter why they choose not to be a christian? what reason would make it ok to damn a perfectly good person to hell? and it might be silly for me to tell you to put yourself in god's shoes, but i'll do it anyway. if he's morally perfect, why the hell is he concerned with people bowing to him at every opportunity?

also, aren't there plenty of guidelines that Jesus never spoke about?

aurel
08-26-2008, 05:26 PM
And like I keep saying, God can do whatever he wants...

Except create a taco so big he can't steal it.

Mo
08-26-2008, 05:26 PM
Okay, JokeyLoki, I got a serious question I'd like you to answer:
Do you pray? If so, what do you expect, what's your motivation?

aurel
08-26-2008, 05:28 PM
Lord, give me motivation to pray so that I may pray with motivation. Gaymen.

somaziro
08-26-2008, 05:28 PM
why should it matter why they choose not to be a christian? what reason would make it ok to damn a perfectly good person to hell? and it might be silly for me to tell you to put yourself in god's shoes, but i'll do it anyway. if he's morally perfect, why the hell is he concerned with people bowing to him at every opportunity?

also, aren't there plenty of guidelines that Jesus never spoke about?

the problem with your argument is that good and bad are nebulous terms, you say someone is perfectly good, but you are not making the decision whether to send them to heaven or hell, God is, and he might have a different opinion about what is good and what is bad. For instance, in God's book, belief in him might be good while disbelief or ignorance of him is bad, so in reality your perfectly good person is perfectly good in the eyes of the decision maker.

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 05:29 PM
why should it matter why they choose not to be a christian? what reason would make it ok to damn a perfectly good person to hell? and it might be silly for me to tell you to put yourself in god's shoes, but i'll do it anyway. if he's morally perfect, why the hell is he concerned with people bowing to him at every opportunity?

also, aren't there plenty of guidelines that Jesus never spoke about?

An example would be if someone chose not to be Christian because they openly hate God. Why should they get to go to Heaven? I guess they could get there, depending on the circumstances... I dunno.

But if a person chooses not to be Christian because a Christian treated them badly in the past, or because they have a misunderstanding of what Christianity is because it was never taught properly, that's not their fault, and I'm sure that God would judge them by their circumstances.

somaziro
08-26-2008, 05:29 PM
Okay, JokeyLoki, I got a serious question I'd like you to answer:
Do you pray? If so, what do you expect, what's your motivation?

MC Hammer prayed, and look where it got him.

aurel
08-26-2008, 05:29 PM
del

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 05:30 PM
the problem with your argument is that good and bad are nebulous terms, you say someone is perfectly good, but you are not making the decision whether to send them to heaven or hell, God is, and he might have a different opinion about what is good and what is bad. For instance, in God's book, belief in him might be good while disbelief or ignorance of him is bad, so in reality your perfectly good person is perfectly good in the eyes of the decision maker.

but if god came up with how people can be good, then those rules are completely arbitrary, and doesn't that present a new problem altogether? i guess it wouldn't have to, but seems sort of fucked to me.

somaziro
08-26-2008, 05:31 PM
An example would be if someone chose not to be Christian because they openly hate God. Why should they get to go to Heaven? I guess they could get there, depending on the circumstances... I dunno.

But if a person chooses not to be Christian because a Christian treated them badly in the past, or because they have a misunderstanding of what Christianity is because it was never taught properly, that's not their fault, and I'm sure that God would judge them by their circumstances.

the problem with your argument is that you are assuming that just because something is not their fault, God won't judge them badly about it, and you are assuming this because you are ascribing your morals and what is fair/unfair good/bad to God, which you can't do because like i said earlier, we are puney mortals who can never know Gods plan

somaziro
08-26-2008, 05:32 PM
but if god came up with how people can be good, then those rules are completely arbitrary, and doesn't that present a new problem altogether? i guess it wouldn't have to, but seems sort of fucked to me.

well he is God and this is.. HIS plan after all... being all powerful etc. he can do whatever he wants.

somaziro
08-26-2008, 05:33 PM
ps - this is how I would respond to your questions if I were a Christian, but real Christians may respond differently so take my answers with a grain of salt.

Nimrod's Son
08-26-2008, 05:38 PM
well arent you little miss fucking superior.

I love it when people call me thick, then i can justifiably hit them with my mushroom stamp of intellect.

lots of yous are pretty smart though. which is an interesting demographic considering we are/were pumpkin fans... apart from nimrods son?? was he ever?
Nope. I'm Catholic though!

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 05:39 PM
well he is God and this is.. HIS plan after all... being all powerful etc. he can do whatever he wants.

right, but if you stress the all-powerful, then the morally perfect aspect of him becomes much less impressive. if it's still impressive at all.

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 05:40 PM
the problem with your argument is that you are assuming that just because something is not their fault, God won't judge them badly about it, and you are assuming this because you are ascribing your morals and what is fair/unfair good/bad to God, which you can't do because like i said earlier, we are puney mortals who can never know Gods plan

I don't *know* how they would be judged. That's what I've been saying the whole time.

Shapan
08-26-2008, 05:43 PM
just go up to a priest say you're not baptized and ask him if you're going to go to hell

somaziro
08-26-2008, 05:43 PM
right, but if you stress the all-powerful, then the morally perfect aspect of him becomes much less impressive. if it's still impressive at all.

once again - morals, good, bad etc. are all point-of-view-centric. it would be impossible for someone to be morally perfect to all beings because everyone would have a different opinion of what morally perfect actually meant. imo god being morally perfect means that he does not stray from whatever his morals are, even though we don't/can't know them =/

Mablak
08-26-2008, 05:46 PM
God can do whatever he wants

What the hell do you mean by this? It seems to me that you really don't care whether God is good or evil. Or that you're saying that literally anything God does is good axiomatically, in which case all you would be saying is that your definition of good is vastly different from its common usage, and would have no bearing on what is morally right or wrong for us to do as people.

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 05:46 PM
once again - morals, good, bad etc. are all point-of-view-centric. it would be impossible for someone to be morally perfect to all beings because everyone would have a different opinion of what morally perfect actually meant. imo god being morally perfect means that he does not stray from whatever his morals are, even though we don't/can't know them =/

to a point, sure. but there is some moral objectivity, even if it can't be easily defined. wouldn't you say?

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 05:46 PM
just go up to a priest say you're not baptized and ask him if you're going to go to hell

By all means, please do. They could probably explain it better than me.

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 05:49 PM
What the hell do you mean by this? It seems to me that you really don't care whether God is good or evil. Or that you're saying that literally anything God does is good axiomatically, in which case all you would be saying is that your definition of good is vastly different from its common usage, and would have no bearing on what is morally right or wrong for us to do as people.

Of course I care whether God is good or evil. You're twisting my words.

What I'm saying is that only God knows a person's intentions, and whether or not they deserve to go to heaven or hell. I'm saying that the examples I'm being given aren't black and white, so I can't say either way, nor do I have the right to.

Mablak
08-26-2008, 05:53 PM
to a point, sure. but there is some moral objectivity, even if it can't be easily defined. wouldn't you say?

It depends what someone even means by moral objectivity. The only thing I can think of that would be meant by it is that you believe the morals you follow should be applied to all people, in which case it is still ultimately something you believe, I'm not sure what people want it to mean beyond that.

Deadeyes
08-26-2008, 06:05 PM
Fake gods for fake people

Mablak
08-26-2008, 06:08 PM
Of course I care whether God is good or evil. You're twisting my words.

What I'm saying is that only God knows a person's intentions, and whether or not they deserve to go to heaven or hell. I'm saying that the examples I'm being given aren't black and white, so I can't say either way, nor do I have the right to.

What gives God the right to make a decision as to a person's afterlife, even if he does know their intentions? I'm assuming you believe God has omniscience, omnipotence and all the various omnis, but how does any of that give him correct moral judgment? None of us know what correct moral judgment is until we come up with such a system ourselves, so even if we assumed God possessed it, how could we possibly know whether or not it was morally correct without judging it based on our own morality?

Without a doubt, sending someone to be tortured for eternity is pure evil no matter what they've done, when allowing them happiness is just as easy and doesn't hinder or endanger anyone else.

ravenguy2000
08-26-2008, 06:11 PM
just go up to a priest say you're not baptized and ask him if

i once saw a porno that started like this

Fattening Ass
08-26-2008, 06:12 PM
i wonder what NAS Jesus saves with

Does he use Apple's Time Machine

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 06:18 PM
What gives God the right to make a decision as to a person's afterlife, even if he does know their intentions? I'm assuming you believe God has omniscience, omnipotence and all the various omnis, but how does any of that give him correct moral judgment? None of us know what correct moral judgment is until we come up with such a system ourselves, so even if we assumed God possessed it, how could we possibly know whether or not it was morally correct without judging it based on our own morality?

Because he's God.... :erm:

Without a doubt, sending someone to be tortured for eternity is pure evil no matter what they've done, when allowing them happiness is just as easy and doesn't hinder or endanger anyone else.

I don't understand your logic. Justice is justice. Making someone account for their wrongs isn't evil.

Cool As Ice Cream
08-26-2008, 06:18 PM
fuck off

hell no i won't. jebus effin' christ!

Deadeyes
08-26-2008, 06:28 PM
I wonder if god will be pissed off when we learn to extend our lives indefinitely and mock him with his inability to effect our destiny. Or maybe when we create moral robots and tell them that they are free to do as they choose and we won't judge them because we are morally superior. Oh but then, when they build little nations of their own and start warring we will probably have to create a prophetbot for them to intermediate their horrible affairs and unify them. Yeah, I suppose divine intervention is worth it when your minions want to smash eachothers faces in for thinking differently. Pawns.

Mablak
08-26-2008, 06:38 PM
I don't understand your logic. Justice is justice. Making someone account for their wrongs isn't evil.

You're right to some extent. But apparently you don't believe there's any upper limit to punishment, when God is dealing out the most horrific punishment imaginable for the longest time possible. How can anything warrant an infinite amount of retribution?

In any case, I don't believe in 'eye for an eye' justice as your God does. Imprisonment and punishment are only forms of self defense to prevent evil doers from continuing to do evil, to prevent them from harming others in the future. How could causing excess pain to someone ever be a good thing, it's unlikely it would help convince them of the immorality of their actions and change their ways (though apparently if it did, God wouldn't care), and it doesn't help anyone at all (especially not them), so why do it?

Because he's God.... :erm:


Come on, that's not a real response. There has to be some property that you believe God possesses that gives him such moral authority, or else you assume once again, that everything God does or wills is good by definition.

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 06:41 PM
I don't claim to know how God works, and I honestly don't try to, in that regard. God has the moral authority because he's God, our Creator. He created the universe and everything in it, I'd say that gives him plenty of authority.

D.
08-26-2008, 06:48 PM
*religious opinion*

Ol' Couch Ass
08-26-2008, 06:52 PM
*religious opinion*

I'm with D.

Mablak
08-26-2008, 07:07 PM
I don't claim to know how God works, and I honestly don't try to, in that regard. God has the moral authority because he's God, our Creator. He created the universe and everything in it, I'd say that gives him plenty of authority.

Firstly, why do you believe God exists, and that he created the universe? I'm assuming some kind of faith, as there is no rational evidence to support that claim. But also importantly, you should have a good idea of what God is if you believe in him, and his 'moral perfection' seems like an extremely important trait that you're ignoring.

But okay, so God is great, he's the bee's knees and is an accomplished individual. How does that imply that what he commands is what we believe we should and should not do, i.e. why does having created us and the universe imply that he knows what are moral and immoral actions for us? It seems like once again you would have to say you have faith that his arguments for morality are completely airtight in that any rational person would be convinced in whatever he believes in, if he presented his arguments to them. So does it all come down to faith then?

D.
08-26-2008, 07:13 PM
I'm with D.
Wanna go to the christian rave a few threads over?

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 07:41 PM
Firstly, why do you believe God exists, and that he created the universe? I'm assuming some kind of faith, as there is no rational evidence to support that claim. But also importantly, you should have a good idea of what God is if you believe in him, and his 'moral perfection' seems like an extremely important trait that you're ignoring.

Because I don't believe that the Big Bang just happened on its own. I don't believe that all the laws of physics and the way they intertwine is a coincidence.

Yes, it is faith. Sorry, I don't have any better explanation for you.

I believe God is just, and I don't know how he works, so I'll see when I get there.

But okay, so God is great, he's the bee's knees and is an accomplished individual. How does that imply that what he commands is what we believe we should and should not do, i.e. why does having created us and the universe imply that he knows what are moral and immoral actions for us? It seems like once again you would have to say you have faith that his arguments for morality are completely airtight in that any rational person would be convinced in whatever he believes in, if he presented his arguments to them. So does it all come down to faith then?

He knows what the moral and immoral actions are for us because (I believe) he created everything, and is the final judge. If he's the final judge, he has the final say so. I have faith that he is just, and as long as I do the best I can, I'll be taken care of. It does come down to faith.

Not really sure what you're implying here.

shannon
08-26-2008, 07:43 PM
the bee's knees

i love this!

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 07:58 PM
Because I don't believe that the Big Bang just happened on its own. I don't believe that all the laws of physics and the way they intertwine is a coincidence.


but you've no problem throwing your hat in the ring of catholicism? isn't that maybe a little hypocritical? wouldn't it make more sense to just admit that you have absolutely no idea how all this shit got here?

mistle
08-26-2008, 08:25 PM
i came in here to say something nice about faith and cool religious people to make up for all my previous bitching on the subject, but then i read these jokeyloki posts and no no NO NO NO!!!

shut. the. fuck. up. YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT. it's nonsense! it's bogus! how can you believe that crap? if you're smart enough to eat and breathe, let alone type words into a computer, you don't get to be that dumb. if it was a joke it'd be funny. or some kind of zombie film. but it just makes me sad and kind of angry to think that people take that shit seriously

if there is a creator, i imagine religion was some kind of ironic, self deprecating joke. only it's on him 'cause the people he made turned out too stupid to get it

maoi
08-26-2008, 08:27 PM
this is starting to read like a youtube comment page.

mistle
08-26-2008, 08:39 PM
sometimes you just have to bang your head against that wall. then you can forget about it and go do something else

like i will now watch futurama and then go to sleep :)

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 09:08 PM
but you've no problem throwing your hat in the ring of catholicism? isn't that maybe a little hypocritical? wouldn't it make more sense to just admit that you have absolutely no idea how all this shit got here?

What do you mean? Why are the two not compatible?

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 09:10 PM
i came in here to say something nice about faith and cool religious people to make up for all my previous bitching on the subject, but then i read these jokeyloki posts and no no NO NO NO!!!

shut. the. fuck. up. YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT. it's nonsense! it's bogus! how can you believe that crap? if you're smart enough to eat and breathe, let alone type words into a computer, you don't get to be that dumb. if it was a joke it'd be funny. or some kind of zombie film. but it just makes me sad and kind of angry to think that people take that shit seriously

if there is a creator, i imagine religion was some kind of ironic, self deprecating joke. only it's on him 'cause the people he made turned out too stupid to get it

Why the need to resort to insults? Why not have a nice, calm discussion like we've been having so far?

That's pretty immature of you.

Mablak
08-26-2008, 09:44 PM
Because I don't believe that the Big Bang just happened on its own. I don't believe that all the laws of physics and the way they intertwine is a coincidence.

But you think it's perfectly alright for God's existence to be a coincidence then? No one had to create him, but someone had to create the laws of physics..? Why is that? There's no real way to say if the laws of physics were created by anyone or anything, however if they were created by some being, we would still have no insight into what that being is, or what he does, or why it should be one being and not multiple, or whether the creation was completely intentional or only partly, and a number of other things.

I would also say this, in any universe we found ourselves in, the observable laws governing it would have to be consistent, it is impossible for chaos to exist in an existing universe (contradictory rules of physics or an absence of governing rules for all situations). For example, suppose a 2-D universe consists of a small square traveling straight along a line, and a rule governing the universe states that after reaching point A, the square will then begin to travel left, while another rule states that after reaching point A it will begin to travel right. Once it reaches point A, the question is, what happens, in the absence of any rule directing the universe in the event of such a contradictory interaction? Although it's been a while since I took a course in logic, if you begin an argument with contradictory premises, any conclusion you draw can be shown to be invalid, so anything one would suppose about the universe could be proven incorrect. I think it's enough to say that a human could never live in a universe in which anything could be proven both true and false with the same premises. Simply put, contradictions don't exist, if even one did, it would result in contradiction being applicable to everything.

So it's inevitable for certain laws of physics to exist and for them to be non-contradictory, and for them to intertwine in governed ways, it doesn't matter whether they were designed by someone or not, they would turn out that way in either case.

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 09:51 PM
But I do have insight into what that being is, and what he does, and why he's one God, etc... because I believe in Jesus, and the Bible, and 2000 years of Church history. So I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

*shrug*

If I'm right (and I have faith that I am), I know where I'm going.

If I'm wrong, and there is nothing after I die, I've done no harm, but bettered my life and helped others in the process of living. (And yes, my life has been much better and happier since I converted)

Either I'll be content in the next life, or it won't matter.

Shapan
08-26-2008, 10:04 PM
By all means, please do. They could probably explain it better than me.

oh i did, in second grade

helped me come to grips with catholicism's tolerance

mayday
08-26-2008, 10:29 PM
God loves us. We are all apart of God forever. =)

Starla
08-26-2008, 10:31 PM
I can't believe some of the jack ass responses in this thread.
*waits for someone to pick on wakan tanka* lol

JokeyLoki
08-26-2008, 10:35 PM
I like how <a href="http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=136419">this</a> is a "similar thread"....

ohnoitsbonnie
08-26-2008, 10:36 PM
I lied when I went to confession for the first time

Starla
08-26-2008, 10:38 PM
I like how <a href="http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=136419">this</a> is a "similar thread"....


I'm glad it didn't turn out to be lemon party.

duovamp
08-26-2008, 10:39 PM
Ladies, gentlemen, this is 2008.

neopryn
08-26-2008, 10:45 PM
How old is the Earth JokeyLoki

maoi
08-26-2008, 11:02 PM
all the related threads are thread breaks

i think netphoria is trying to tell me what to post in this thread

duovamp
08-26-2008, 11:12 PM
Godspeed.

Eulogy
08-26-2008, 11:41 PM
What do you mean? Why are the two not compatible?

you don't think that the big bang or some other inexplicable event caused the creation of the universe, but you believe in a very specific and detailed account of the christian god and his only son who he sent to die for your sins and then rise from the dead three days later.

you don't see how that could appear to be a little odd?

cork_soaker
08-26-2008, 11:52 PM
praise be to the Parasailing Lasagna Wombat

tcm
08-26-2008, 11:53 PM
i'm not for it but i'm not against it.

ps. jesus if you reading this you now how to contact me

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 12:40 AM
2000 years of Church history.

::sigh::

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 12:41 AM
Christianity is dying in America. A recent poll said that among people 17-29, 1 in 4 claim to have no religion. Hopefully the trend continues.

Mablak
08-27-2008, 01:05 AM
But I do have insight into what that being is, and what he does, and why he's one God, etc... because I believe in Jesus, and the Bible, and 2000 years of Church history. So I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

*shrug*

If I'm right (and I have faith that I am), I know where I'm going.

If I'm wrong, and there is nothing after I die, I've done no harm, but bettered my life and helped others in the process of living. (And yes, my life has been much better and happier since I converted)
Either I'll be content in the next life, or it won't matter.

I would ask you why you believe in any of those things, in any case they provide utterly no evidence supporting the existence of God. I really, sincerely hope you don't believe that Jesus' miracles are historically accurate or well documented. But even if they were, how would that prove the existence of God, and one God no less? Even if Jesus did possess supernatural powers, how is there any evidence other than his word that God exists? It's literally insane to base your entire belief system on incredibly suspicious, if not invalidated, 2000 year-old facts about what a single individual claims to be true. And 2000 years of church history has nothing to do with how much evidence supports the existence of God.

But with faith of course, facts don't really matter, do they? By definition, faith involves believing based on assumption, or belief without reason. You might want to say that faith is more than that, you receive some feeling that you attribute to God telepathically loving you, or skullfucking you or whatever, and that's how you know he exists. But as to why you believe a certain fact through faith, faith invariably produces nothing relevant, nothing that you could rationally explain or argue, which is why this definition is necessary.

Anyway, what happens when 'knowing' something through faith contradicts ideas that a rational person should already believe in? You know 2 + 2 = 4, but you think faith is somehow telling you 2 + 2 = 1, so which belief should you choose? There are rational axioms you already believe in that would tell you 2 + 2 = 4, involving an understanding of integers and addition, so the reason you believe the first statement is due to a valid argument. The second statement implicitly depends on axioms you already hold as true, it would no longer make sense if it did not depend on an understanding of integers and addition. Yet it's conclusion is false from those axioms, the only way it could be true is if it were to contradict one of them, which is impossible. Hence it could not possibly be an actual axiom, it could not possibly be something you could believe in via faith.

A belief in the existence of God is quite similar. You can't use faith to believe in an idea that contradicts axioms you already hold: axioms simply can't be contradicted, because you hold them as valid without question. Rationally (from whatever non-contradictory axioms rational people hold), you have no evidence to believe in God, any faith-based belief in opposition to that is completely untenable, regardless of the feelings you might receive. It's not that such feelings aren't real, simply that what they mean can't be held as true.

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 01:15 AM
Because I don't believe that the Big Bang just happened on its own. I don't believe that all the laws of physics and the way they intertwine is a coincidence.

Yes, it is faith. Sorry, I don't have any better explanation for you.

I believe God is just, and I don't know how he works, so I'll see when I get there.



You know man, there's a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE jump involved in pondering some kind of metaphysical force that set creation into motion, and giving in to the trappings of the Christian religion and the "god" described in the bible.

redbreegull
08-27-2008, 01:16 AM
Christianity is dying in America. A recent poll said that among people 17-29, 1 in 4 claim to have no religion. Hopefully the trend continues.

I'm 19..... I live in a pretty liberal area, and I guess it could be that like minded people flock together, but I don't think I know any serious practicing religious people my age.

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 01:17 AM
God has the moral authority because he's God, our Creator. He created the universe and everything in it, I'd say that gives him plenty of authority.

So what was up with all the demented shit he did in the old testament? does that stuff just not count?

mercurial
08-27-2008, 01:23 AM
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything"
- Friedrich Nietzsche

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 01:29 AM
More Nietzsche goodness:

Which is it: is man one of God's blunders, or is God one of man's blunders?

"Sins" are indispensable to every society organized on an ecclesiastical basis; they are the only reliable weapons of power; the priest lives upon sins; it is necessary to him that there be "sinning."

Two great European narcotics, alcohol and Christianity.

God is a thought that makes crooked all that is straight.

"Faith" means the will to avoid knowing what is true.

Christians call it faith ... I call it the herd

One had better put on gloves before handling the New Testament. The presence of so much filth makes it highly advisable.

The preponderance of pain over pleasure is the cause of our fictitious morality and religion.

Christianity was from the beginning, essentially and fundamentally, life's nausea and disgust with life, merely concealed behind, masked by, dressed up as, faith in "another" or "better" life.


These last two are my favs:

Christianity came into existence in order to lighten the heart; but now it has first to burden the heart so as afterwards to be able to lighten it. Consequently it shall perish.


The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.

mistle
08-27-2008, 03:45 AM
Why the need to resort to insults? Why not have a nice, calm discussion like we've been having so far?

That's pretty immature of you.

immature is my middle name. i don't think i made insults though. i was just overwhelmed with the absurdity of having the discussion in the first place. we can discuss it nicely until the end of time, but sometimes i just get a feeling like enough is enough, you know? your beliefs are too stupid to have a serious discussion about. that might seem like an insult to you, but i really don't mean it that way, it's just how i feel. i don't feel like seriously discussing whether he-man invented ice cream either. why do you even want to discuss it though, when you've already made the fundamental and necessary decision for you to believe what you do that no logic or common sense or reasoning has any influence on your world view because you want to believe it even though nothing in the world points to it being true and in fact everything we do know points to it being false? you can't argue with faith. it's just a waste of time. all i can do is tell you how dumb i think your beliefs are and hope you'll stop wanting to have faith in them at least

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 03:59 AM
he-man invented ice cream

doesn't it say this in Corinthians somewhere?

mistle
08-27-2008, 04:04 AM
but i mean if you truly believe it like a crazy guy believes he's napoleon then what are you gonna do. i just don't think that's the case. maybe that's a kind of faith i have

i wish i would stay away from these threads

Luke de Spa
08-27-2008, 06:38 AM
to a point, sure. but there is some moral objectivity, even if it can't be easily defined. wouldn't you say?

eheheh

Luke de Spa
08-27-2008, 06:43 AM
If I'm wrong, and there is nothing after I die, I've done no harm, but bettered my life and helped others in the process of living. (And yes, my life has been much better and happier since I converted)

Either I'll be content in the next life, or it won't matter.
eheheheheheheheeeeee

Thaniel Buckner
08-27-2008, 07:02 AM
i like how in order to have a "serious discussion" with jokeyloki about this, you have to refrain from pointing out the stupidness of holding such a world view.

typical middle american AM radio bullshit.

D.
08-27-2008, 07:47 AM
this is starting to read like a youtube comment page.

<mayfuck>

Hate the Hater
08-27-2008, 07:52 AM
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u35/toes21_photos/storyxf3.gif

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 10:32 AM
How old is the Earth JokeyLoki

However old scientists say it is. Billions of years...

You're confusing Catholics with retarded fundies.

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 10:33 AM
you don't think that the big bang or some other inexplicable event caused the creation of the universe, but you believe in a very specific and detailed account of the christian god and his only son who he sent to die for your sins and then rise from the dead three days later.

you don't see how that could appear to be a little odd?

I think you misunderstood, or perhaps I mistyped... I *do* think that the Big Bang happened, I said that I didn't think it happened randomly...

Big Bang = God creating the universe

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 10:35 AM
::sigh::

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

I was speaking of 2000 years since Jesus. Between Him and the Council of Nicaea, there are plenty of writings by early Christians and the early Fathers of the Church.

Eulogy
08-27-2008, 10:35 AM
I think you misunderstood, or perhaps I mistyped... I *do* think that the Big Bang happened, I said that I didn't think it happened randomly...

Big Bang = God creating the universe

so i think someone went over this already, but if the big bang can't happen spontaneously, how can god come into being spontaneously? or if he as always existed, how come the matter that makes up the universe cannot have always existed?

Eulogy
08-27-2008, 10:36 AM
yeah i think i'm done though

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 10:37 AM
You know man, there's a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE jump involved in pondering some kind of metaphysical force that set creation into motion, and giving in to the trappings of the Christian religion and the "god" described in the bible.

Ok.

I have my own reasons and personal experiences, I'd have to write a book to list them all, and I really don't feel like doing that right now, sorry...

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 10:38 AM
immature is my middle name. i don't think i made insults though. i was just overwhelmed with the absurdity of having the discussion in the first place. we can discuss it nicely until the end of time, but sometimes i just get a feeling like enough is enough, you know? your beliefs are too stupid to have a serious discussion about. that might seem like an insult to you, but i really don't mean it that way, it's just how i feel. i don't feel like seriously discussing whether he-man invented ice cream either. why do you even want to discuss it though, when you've already made the fundamental and necessary decision for you to believe what you do that no logic or common sense or reasoning has any influence on your world view because you want to believe it even though nothing in the world points to it being true and in fact everything we do know points to it being false? you can't argue with faith. it's just a waste of time. all i can do is tell you how dumb i think your beliefs are and hope you'll stop wanting to have faith in them at least

If you don't feel like discussing it, why open the thread? So you can bitch?

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 10:40 AM
i like how in order to have a "serious discussion" with jokeyloki about this, you have to refrain from pointing out the stupidness of holding such a world view.

typical middle american AM radio bullshit.

There's a difference between saying you don't agree with someone and calling them stupid.

And that has nothing to do with AM radio, it's about respecting those you debate with. Which I guess I'm a bit naive in expecting from Netphoria.

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 10:40 AM
so i think someone went over this already, but if the big bang can't happen spontaneously, how can god come into being spontaneously? or if he as always existed, how come the matter that makes up the universe cannot have always existed?

I don't know.

Thaniel Buckner
08-27-2008, 10:44 AM
I don't know.
so what's the point in attributing everything to a creator.

besides the good feeling it gives you.

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 10:46 AM
so what's the point in attributing everything to a creator.

besides the good feeling it gives you.

Because that's what I believe. It makes more sense to me that there was a Creator, based on my personal experience and knowledge. It makes less sense to me that everything was created randomly and by chance. So I choose to believe there's a Creator.

Sorry I can't break it down any further for you...

Caine Walker
08-27-2008, 10:46 AM
some people find faith to be a less depressing alternative to the void of the unknown.

Mo
08-27-2008, 10:49 AM
Faith would be more depressing to me. To know that I pray to/believe in something no-one will ever be able to proof or unproof. :noway:
Is it just to be on the save side?

Thaniel Buckner
08-27-2008, 10:50 AM
Because that's what I believe.not good enough.

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 10:54 AM
not good enough.

Try reading the rest of what I said.

And who's it not good enough for? You? I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You asked me a question, and I answered it.

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 10:57 AM
some people find faith to be a less depressing alternative to the void of the unknown.

The unknown is exciting. Who the fuck knows what force was behind the big bang? Pondering that is a lot cooler than inventing a bunch of religious bullshit.

I have no idea what will happen to me when I die, if anything. The mystery is fun.

If i was forced to label myself, I would be "apatheistic"

Thaniel Buckner
08-27-2008, 10:57 AM
Try reading the rest of what I said.

And who's it not good enough for? You? I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You asked me a question, and I answered it.
believing something is not a good reason to believe it.

you didn't answer my question.

Caine Walker
08-27-2008, 10:59 AM
Faith would be more depressing to me. To know that I pray to/believe in something no-one will ever be able to proof or unproof. :noway:
Is it just to be on the save side?

well, that's the point of faith - to just *believe* in something regardless of whether you are able to scientifically prove that it's there. you feel it in your heart, soul, and any other extension of your being.

you're thinking about it too much.

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 10:59 AM
You asked me a question, and I answered it.

basically by saying you didn't know how to answer it

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 11:00 AM
believing something is not a good reason to believe it.

you didn't answer my question.

It makes more sense to me that there was a Creator, based on my personal experience and knowledge. It makes less sense to me that everything was created randomly and by chance. So I choose to believe there's a Creator.

Sorry I can't break it down any further for you...

If that's not good enough for you, sorry. I can't prove that God exists, and you can't prove that he doesn't.

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 11:03 AM
I can't prove that God exists, and you can't prove that he doesn't.

You can't prove Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist, but I bet you don't believe in them.

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 11:05 AM
You can't prove Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist, but I bet you don't believe in them.

My parents said they were the ones that put the presents and the eggs out, and when they don't, there's none there. Good enough evidence to me.

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 11:09 AM
you ignored the word 'prove'.

yeah i think i'm done too

Cool As Ice Cream
08-27-2008, 11:10 AM
that doesn't prove that they don't exist.

"oh, i'm not getting any presents for you. then i won't believe in you."

how nice. does god give you presents?

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 11:12 AM
does god give you presents?

Yup. Every day.

mistle
08-27-2008, 11:12 AM
If you don't feel like discussing it, why open the thread? So you can bitch?

i already said why i came in here. these threads always make me seem like such a jerk. i really don't have anything against religious people per se. i'm atheist, but i think i'm pretty open minded. i'm not some kind of die hard anti religious crusader, but it's difficult not to bitch when you read a thread like this. sometimes it's just too much bullshit to take in

but yeah. i'll leave now. carry on

Thaniel Buckner
08-27-2008, 11:12 AM
If that's not good enough for you, sorry. I can't prove that God exists, and you can't prove that he doesn't.
it's not my responsibility to prove a creator doesn't exist. i'm not saying a creator doesn't exist. i'm saying that the belief in a creator is obsolete. you're a catholic because you pick and choose parts of the bible that appeal to you and your world view. you were raised catholic so it just feels right to stand in line for the priest to feed you a cracker. its as familiar to you as a hug from your mom. you believe it because you were spoonfed that shit from birth most likely, or you married into it (even worse)

you can't just look at a tree, think "gee dats purdy. aint god neat?", and defend your claim because "it's what you believe". that's not how it works.

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 11:12 AM
you ignored the word 'prove'.

yeah i think i'm done too

Ok, good enough "proof" for me.

Sorry I didn't word my answer correctly. :rolleyes:

Thaniel Buckner
08-27-2008, 11:15 AM
Yup. Every day.elaborate.

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 11:16 AM
it's not my responsibility to prove a creator doesn't exist. i'm not saying a creator doesn't exist. i'm saying that the belief in a creator is obsolete. you're a catholic because you pick and choose the things that appeal to you and world view. you were raised catholic so it just feels right to stand in line for the priest to feed you a cracker. its as familiar to you as a hug from your mom. you believe it because you were spoonfed that shit from birth most likely.

you can't just look at a tree, think "gee dats purdy. aint god neat?", and defend your claim because "it's what you believe". that's not how it works.

Why assume that I was raised Catholic?

I converted 3 years ago. Because I researched it, and it made sense to me. I decided that if I'm going to be Christian, I should go to the source, the first Church, not one that split off 1500 years later.

Anyway, I *can* do that, because that's what faith is. And I don't see where you get off saying that I can't.

JokeyLoki
08-27-2008, 11:18 AM
elaborate.

He gives me little wrapped presents at the foot of my bed every morning. :rolleyes:

WTF do you think I mean? I live, I breath, I have a family, I can find happiness in small things. Those are gifts to me.

I don't really feel like getting mocked anymore, so if anyone else feels like discussing it, PM me.

Thaniel Buckner
08-27-2008, 11:21 AM
i'm not saying you can't do anything. i'm just saying what you believe is fucking dumb.

why be a christian in the first place? if you have to make a choice between being a cathloic or a protestant, why not make the choice between christianity and judaism. what about making the choice between religion and nothing?

Thaniel Buckner
08-27-2008, 11:25 AM
Anyway, I *can* do that, because that's what faith is. And I don't see where you get off saying that I can't.oh yeah because i forgot that faith makes any belief, no matter how pointless or absurd, immune to debate.

toodles, jokeyloki. see you in the next religion thread where you get your ass handed to you and you run off.

waltermcphilp
08-27-2008, 11:28 AM
you gotta have faith faith faith.

TuralyonW3
08-27-2008, 11:44 AM
I don't really feel like getting mocked anymore

renounce your faith and begin anew

Cool As Ice Cream
08-27-2008, 12:28 PM
i want to see the look on your face when your parents tell you god isn't real and it was them all along.

Mo
08-27-2008, 01:08 PM
well, that's the point of faith - to just *believe* in something regardless of whether you are able to scientifically prove that it's there. you feel it in your heart, soul, and any other extension of your being.

you're thinking about it too much.

Yeah, but committing my whole life to some ridiculous dogma, written down in ancient books - no way.

neopryn
08-27-2008, 02:46 PM
Out of the dozens and hundreds of religions in this world, why do you think that you stumbled upon the right one?

Do you think all the other ones are wrong? If so, why? What makes them less credible than your beliefs?

Mo
08-27-2008, 02:48 PM
I don't really feel like getting mocked anymore

Oh. Forgive me.

waltermcphilp
08-27-2008, 02:51 PM
she has to. its the law.

somaziro
08-27-2008, 03:04 PM
Out of the dozens and hundreds of religions in this world, why do you think that you stumbled upon the right one?

Do you think all the other ones are wrong? If so, why? What makes them less credible than your beliefs?

you just have to find the right one for you, and if none are right for you then you just choose not to believe in any of them.

Mo
08-27-2008, 03:12 PM
you just have to find the right one for you, and if none are right for you then you just choose not to believe in any of them.

Well, that's wrong. It's not like I wake up on day and am all like "Wow, from now on I'll be a good Christian".

Mablak
08-27-2008, 03:21 PM
Yeah everyone just ignore my reply regarding faith

Mo
08-27-2008, 03:24 PM
I would ask you why you believe in any of those things, in any case they provide utterly no evidence supporting the existence of God. I really, sincerely hope you don't believe that Jesus' miracles are historically accurate or well documented. But even if they were, how would that prove the existence of God, and one God no less? Even if Jesus did possess supernatural powers, how is there any evidence other than his word that God exists? It's literally insane to base your entire belief system on incredibly suspicious, if not invalidated, 2000 year-old facts about what a single individual claims to be true. And 2000 years of church history has nothing to do with how much evidence supports the existence of God.

But with faith of course, facts don't really matter, do they? By definition, faith involves believing based on assumption, or belief without reason. You might want to say that faith is more than that, you receive some feeling that you attribute to God telepathically loving you, or skullfucking you or whatever, and that's how you know he exists. But as to why you believe a certain fact through faith, faith invariably produces nothing relevant, nothing that you could rationally explain or argue, which is why this definition is necessary.

Anyway, what happens when 'knowing' something through faith contradicts ideas that a rational person should already believe in? You know 2 + 2 = 4, but you think faith is somehow telling you 2 + 2 = 1, so which belief should you choose? There are rational axioms you already believe in that would tell you 2 + 2 = 4, involving an understanding of integers and addition, so the reason you believe the first statement is due to a valid argument. The second statement implicitly depends on axioms you already hold as true, it would no longer make sense if it did not depend on an understanding of integers and addition. Yet it's conclusion is false from those axioms, the only way it could be true is if it were to contradict one of them, which is impossible. Hence it could not possibly be an actual axiom, it could not possibly be something you could believe in via faith.

A belief in the existence of God is quite similar. You can't use faith to believe in an idea that contradicts axioms you already hold: axioms simply can't be contradicted, because you hold them as valid without question. Rationally (from whatever non-contradictory axioms rational people hold), you have no evidence to believe in God, any faith-based belief in opposition to that is completely untenable, regardless of the feelings you might receive. It's not that such feelings aren't real, simply that what they mean can't be held as true.

I agree with most of this.
Satisfied?

aurel
08-27-2008, 03:27 PM
Yeah everyone just ignore my reply regarding faith

Waaay ahead of you.

GlasgowKiss
08-27-2008, 03:28 PM
you just have to find the right one for you, and if none are right for you then you just choose not to believe in any of them.
You dont find the idea of shopping for a religion that says everything you want to do is right, extremely deranged?

Mo
08-27-2008, 03:33 PM
You don't find the idea of religious groups per se extremely deranged?

somaziro
08-27-2008, 03:35 PM
that is not how i look at it, when you find a religion that mirrors your beliefs on how you should treat other people and yourself, then i see no problem in someone choosing to delve deeper into that religion or coming to the conclusion that its more spiritual aspects are true also. or if you find a religion that explains some aspect of life and/or death that rings true to you, i see no problem in someone delving deeper into that religion/philosophy. regardless of whether a person finds a religion or not, people (who are not sociopaths) are going to live by some moral code or have some sense of what is right or wrong to them, whether or not that involves spirituality or not is irrelevant in my mind.

Mo
08-27-2008, 03:40 PM
"More spiritual aspects". Fuck, you people are easy to please.
So just because of some social or moral views of a religion you'd ignore all the other shit they're feeding you?

somaziro
08-27-2008, 03:49 PM
i assume you must not have read this entire thread since i stated early on that i am not religious, i just have nothing against religious people as a general proposition. and unless you are a complete anarchist, i am sure in some way (be honest here) you listen to some (if not all) the shit your government and/or media feeds you - and by you i mean the general public.

Mo
08-27-2008, 03:53 PM
Yeah, but just as with religion, I can choose what I want to believe and where I draw the bullshit line.
And by the way - I'm a strong believer in social-democracy, so yeah, I "listen to" my government. Too bad most people in our current administration are completely braindead sociopaths.

somaziro
08-27-2008, 03:58 PM
i think many religious people 'draw the bullshit line' just like you do and choose to interpret or believe in something that their fundamentalist counterparts believe differently.

Mo
08-27-2008, 04:18 PM
Yeah, but why even bother with "interpreting" stuff some old fuck made up hundreds of years ago? I don't see what's so compelling.

somaziro
08-27-2008, 04:28 PM
some people need answers to hard questions / questions which we don't know the answers to.

Eulogy
08-27-2008, 04:36 PM
some people need answers to hard questions / questions which we don't know the answers to.

....but why. and how does that need justify just making shit up?

Mo
08-27-2008, 04:36 PM
Too bad.

Mo
08-27-2008, 04:37 PM
There's the social factor. And the oldness. And miracle bullshit.

somaziro
08-27-2008, 05:06 PM
personally I live by that bumper sticker that reads "Everyone needs something to believe in... I believe I will have another beer" =)

GlasgowKiss
08-27-2008, 05:10 PM
ve believe in naathing

ravenguy2000
08-27-2008, 05:22 PM
personally I live by that bumper sticker that reads "Everyone needs something to believe in... I believe I will have another beer" =)

i've never been to austin but everyone drives around with gay bumper stickers like this right

somaziro
08-27-2008, 05:22 PM
i've never been to austin but everyone drives around with gay bumper stickers like this right

Actually I don't know if I got that from a bumper sticker, but it sure sounds like it would be on a bumper sticker :)

barden
08-27-2008, 09:18 PM
this is all so stupid.

celluloid_love
08-27-2008, 10:21 PM
why do people still think of god as a being?

TuralyonW3
08-28-2008, 12:46 AM
why is it impossible for religious people to take part in and actually remain a part of a logical discussion

bits
08-28-2008, 01:06 AM
that's like asking why people fuck uglies when they're intoxicated

TuralyonW3
08-28-2008, 01:25 AM
i've never been to austin but everyone drives around with gay bumper stickers like this right

no

Shapan
08-28-2008, 01:29 AM
why do people still think of god as a being?

would you prefer superhero

Rockin' Cherub
08-28-2008, 05:38 AM
i like this http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

Mo
08-28-2008, 06:29 AM
why is it impossible for religious people to take part in and actually remain a part of a logical discussion

Because there's no place for logic in religion?