View Full Version : Zeitgeist in another nine years time.


Shallowed
08-11-2008, 01:47 AM
This just got me thinking...

Back in the day, when Adore was released, nearly everyone thought it was a disappointing piece of crap. Fans of Gish, SD and MCIS felt betrayed and confused about this direction.

These days, a lot of fans think that Zeitgeist is a disappointingl piece of crap, Fans of Gish, SD and MCIS feel betrayed and confused about this direction.

Adore turned ten years old recently. Now, nearly every self-respecting Pumpkins fan really enjoys that album. Do you think that Zeitgeist will perhaps be much more universally appreciated in another nine years time?

It's possible.

skipgo
08-11-2008, 01:51 AM
i never thought adore was a disappointing piece of crap. actually i remember a lot of fans really loved it. it was the mainstream who didn't like it, as i recall. zeitgeist can't begin to touch adore.

redbull
08-11-2008, 01:53 AM
This just got me thinking...

Back in the day, when Adore was released, nearly everyone thought it was a disappointing piece of crap. Fans of Gish, SD and MCIS felt betrayed and confused about this direction.

These days, a lot of fans think that Zeitgeist is a disappointingl piece of crap, Fans of Gish, SD and MCIS feel betrayed and confused about this direction.

Adore turned ten years old recently. Now, nearly every self-respecting Pumpkins fan really enjoys that album. Do you think that Zeitgeist will perhaps be much more universally appreciated in another nine years time?

It's possible.

i'm gonna take a wild guess and say it will still suck

commando
08-11-2008, 01:53 AM
I think zeitgeist will certainly have gained more appreciation as the band releases more material and the album gains a little context. There are things about it that I really go back to and marvel at that I forget about sometimes. (e.g. the absolute clinic that Jimmy puts on throughout)

wHATcOLOR
08-11-2008, 01:57 AM
Back in the day, when Adore was released, nearly everyone thought it was a disappointing piece of crap. Fans of Gish, SD and MCIS felt betrayed and confused about this direction.



i don't recall it being like that

to answer your question, i think it will still suck and will still be forgetable

Corganist
08-11-2008, 02:28 AM
I think the perception that the fanbase as a whole has warmed to Adore over the years is a bit off base. I think that for the most part the people who thought it was disappointing back then still think so now. The only reason it seems that people have warmed to Adore is because a lot of the people who didn't like it when it came out eventually stopped following the band because of it...leaving the fanbase mostly composed of people who like it (or at least in the case of people like me, tolerate it). I definitely don't think it's suddenly become an album "any self-respecting SP fan" loves. Plenty of self-respecting SP fans don't love it.

As for Zeitgeist, I doubt that it'll gain any kind of belated "classic" status over time. At most, people might begin to begrudgingly admit it's slightly underrated. But even that might be pushing it (even though in actuality it is severely underrated).

BlissedandGone2
08-11-2008, 02:30 AM
i never thought adore was a disappointing piece of crap. actually i remember a lot of fans really loved it. it was the mainstream who didn't like it, as i recall. zeitgeist can't begin to touch adore.

im with you. adore was amazing from the getgo. or from the skipgo rather.

Sarcastic Smile
08-11-2008, 04:13 AM
Well if they put out an even shittier album in the future, yes, zeitgeist could end up being appreciated a little more

Lorenzo
08-11-2008, 04:39 AM
For the most part I despise Zeitgeist, and in my 13 years of pumpkin fandom remains the only release by Billy i refuse to ever buy!!! I doubt the fanbase will ever warm, I don't think any of us really thought Billy could suck that much? Besides BTL I say we disown it.

rolmos
08-11-2008, 06:10 AM
<del>

rolmos
08-11-2008, 06:11 AM
One day, someone, somewhere, may appreciate Zeitgeist a bit more. But I will never forget the word Shitegeist.

tcm
08-11-2008, 06:18 AM
that's true... i still hear the calls of "sh sh sh sh sh shite" like it was yesterday.

T&T
08-11-2008, 06:19 AM
for me the next album will definitely set the context to zeitgeist that will help me appreciate it
american gothic helped a bit, yet i'm gonna need a little more

this has happened consistently for the last 8 years with nin and radiohead as well
dislike the album when it comes out, yet when a new album is released, the previous becomes pretty WOW.

Kahlo
08-11-2008, 06:22 AM
At least the Radiohead albums where challenging - I think the reverse is Zeitgeists problem. It seems too straightforward compared to what came before.

Maybe I'm living in the past.

T&T
08-11-2008, 06:27 AM
the artwork will still be hideous


maybe zeitgeist will reveal it self true as a "sign of the times" - shit times.

Kahlo
08-11-2008, 06:29 AM
I think that was Izzle's excuse for the album. It is indeed a generic, plodding, uninspired record - a reflection of our current music scene, truly of the zeitgeist.

However that is just looking at one small strain of contemporary music.

tcm
08-11-2008, 06:37 AM
At least the Radiohead albums where challenging - I think the reverse is Zeitgeists problem. It seems too straightforward compared to what came before.

i can't say i've ever felt challenged by Radiohead. obviously many people have, which is awesome. but i never felt uneasy about anything they were doing.

edit: i take that back, In Limbo did make me a bit uneasy. mmm...

Shallowed
08-11-2008, 04:08 PM
How is Kid A and Amnesiac not challenging after Pablo Honey, The Bends and OK Computer?

GlasgowKiss
08-11-2008, 04:12 PM
How is Kid A and Amnesiac not challenging after Pablo Honey, The Bends and OK Computer?
Some people had listened to experimental music in the 20th century.

Shallowed
08-11-2008, 04:23 PM
Yeah, but I'm talking about after their first three albums.

GlasgowKiss
08-11-2008, 04:24 PM
Yeah but nobody else was.

Slurpee
08-11-2008, 04:51 PM
Well if they put out an even shittier album in the future, yes, zeitgeist could end up being appreciated a little more

That's why I like Machina I so much now!

Pizza Club
08-11-2008, 04:55 PM
10th anniversary Zeitgeist box set and tour featuring the new single "Gossamer" with a video directed by Mary-Kate Olsen.

toadkat9
08-11-2008, 05:46 PM
For the most part I despise Zeitgeist, and in my 13 years of pumpkin fandom remains the only release by Billy i refuse to ever buy!!! I doubt the fanbase will ever warm, I don't think any of us really thought Billy could suck that much? Besides BTL I say we disown it.

Wait a minute... did you say never buy?? How have you ever heard it then!?!

Oh yeah... Now I remember Billy talking about all of those people that download albums without paying for them. UnTr00.

toadkat9
08-11-2008, 05:47 PM
And there is NOOOO Pumpkins record that sucks as bad as The Future Embrace. Yet, you bought that!?!?

BumbleBeeMouth
08-11-2008, 05:55 PM
it sounds really fucking goooood in my headphones. minus roy thomas baker.

BumbleBeeMouth
08-11-2008, 05:56 PM
ugh and that stupid billy chorus on bleeding the orchid

outro to stars is a meaty clubfuck though,


its swings and roundabouts this album. mostly jimmy on the swings.

laaazy
08-11-2008, 06:49 PM
the only good ones are 7 shades and btl
i havent heard either of them since the car ride to the october 11th show
so.. im prolly going to listen to zeitgeist about twice in the next 9 years

dudehitscar
08-11-2008, 06:54 PM
i don't think so. Not with me at least. I've given it more than it's fair shot and still it lacks.

The Future Embrace was better.

Faeomm
08-11-2008, 07:23 PM
It's more forgettable than Machina I. And M1 is my favorite album.

redbull
08-12-2008, 12:18 AM
at least TFE was an interesting direction. plus, the songs on it are just better than Zeitgeist.

stumpycat
08-12-2008, 12:51 AM
Back in the day, when Adore was released, nearly everyone thought it was a disappointing piece of crap. Fans of Gish, SD and MCIS felt betrayed and confused about this direction.

These days, a lot of fans think that Zeitgeist is a disappointingl piece of crap, Fans of Gish, SD and MCIS feel betrayed and confused about this direction.

The difference is that although the first listen to Adore made me go, "WTF!?" once I got over the initial shock of something that sounded so musically different than what had come before, I could definitely recognise and respect the level of artistry and complexity Corgan put into the record. While at the time I was mourning the possibility that SP might never get back to truly "rocking" in the way that I recognized, I don't recall that it was ever an issue of quality or musical homogeneity for me.


I think the perception that the fanbase as a whole has warmed to Adore over the years is a bit off base. I think that for the most part the people who thought it was disappointing back then still think so now. The only reason it seems that people have warmed to Adore is because a lot of the people who didn't like it when it came out eventually stopped following the band because of it...leaving the fanbase mostly composed of people who like it (or at least in the case of people like me, tolerate it). I definitely don't think it's suddenly become an album "any self-respecting SP fan" loves. Plenty of self-respecting SP fans don't love it.

Yeah, I've always subscribed to this alternative hypothesis of why Adore seems so much more well received now than when it was released. I feel it's quite an accurate description of what really happened, and why the current "active" fanbase is skewed in a "pro Adore" direction that is by and large not representative of the opinion held by the fanbase at the time. A lot of fans lost patience and/or interest and simply left the fold.


maybe zeitgeist will reveal it self true as a "sign of the times" - shit times.
This is what I tell myself when I want to believe that there really was some kind of brilliant artistic ingenuity behind the album. It's a willful B0lly-esque delusion.
for me the next album will definitely set the context to zeitgeist that will help me appreciate it
american gothic helped a bit, yet i'm gonna need a little more

this has happened consistently for the last 8 years with nin and radiohead as well
dislike the album when it comes out, yet when a new album is released, the previous becomes pretty WOW.
Uggh. That's a depressing thought. Can't deny I've had it though.

tcm
08-12-2008, 02:04 AM
How is Kid A and Amnesiac not challenging after Pablo Honey, The Bends and OK Computer?

it seemed like a logical progression to me. Radiohead were already defined by so-called "weirdness" with OK Computer. they were already "music to slit your wrists to". Kid A/Amnesiac just went to the next level. and besides, they're chock full of catchy tunes that sound good to your ears. what's difficult about it?

the Pumpkins have done a pretty good job of leaving me somewhat incredulous with each new thing. like, "is this for real? what were they thinking?" has been my common reaction since the beginning.

D.
08-12-2008, 02:20 AM
i havent heard either of them since the car ride to the october 11th show
so.. im prolly going to listen to zeitgeist about twice in the next 9 years
post/username

T&T
08-12-2008, 03:04 AM
It's a willful B0lly-esque delusion.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x116/leo9productions/Zoink.gif

Kahlo
08-12-2008, 03:08 AM
And there is NOOOO Pumpkins record that sucks as bad as The Future Embrace. Yet, you bought that!?!?

Not a Pumpkins record. Stop posting :erm:

Shallowed
08-12-2008, 04:34 AM
I stared at that spiral for about thirty seconds, then looked away, and everything went warped and wavy...

I think the main difference to why these two albums are recieved differently is because back then, SP hadn't persued that direction before, it was only hinted at some songs in MCIS, but Zeitgeist is nothing new. Nothing new, and nothing special.

Rockin' Cherub
08-12-2008, 05:58 AM
adore isn't as good as the first three, but zeitgeist is much worse

as simple as that

if in 9 years i seriously like zeitgeist, shoot me

Rockin' Cherub
08-12-2008, 06:00 AM
i can never decide which one is worse, tfe or zg

i think msots is better than both of them and that's one dull-ass record

cardiac
08-12-2008, 06:30 AM
i think msots is better than both of them and that's one dull-ass record

I hate to say it, but I have to agree with this

Kahlo
08-12-2008, 07:16 AM
adore isn't as good as the first three, but zeitgeist is much worse

as simple as that

if in 9 years i seriously like zeitgeist, shoot me

In my opinion Adore is much clearly > Gish

But we all differ

Rockin' Cherub
08-12-2008, 07:19 AM
yeah i mean i really hated adore at first, then i came to terms with it and thought they were equal

i'm pretty sure gish is better but i tried to listen to it all the way through a few weeks ago and i just couldn't do it

i wish i wasn't over the smashing pumpkins in general :(

Phoenix Down
08-12-2008, 07:28 AM
At least the Radiohead albums where challenging - I think the reverse is Zeitgeists problem. It seems too straightforward compared to what came before.

Maybe I'm living in the past.

I think In Rainbows is quiet lame. They even did a cover of the Chili's Road Trippin' on it, i believe they called it Faust Arp. It's totally not challenging, mate.

Kahlo
08-12-2008, 07:30 AM
I mean to the general public.

Radiohead have been Radiohead by numbers for many years now. Kid A was a logical step from OK Computer.

For SP Adore and Machina are both big departures from the record before. ZG is perhaps a departure in its stripped down straight forward style.

Rockin' Cherub
08-12-2008, 07:44 AM
the smashing pumpkins were never a boring straight-forward rock and roll band

yet this is exactly what they're trying to be now. i don't get it.

tcm
08-12-2008, 08:16 AM
For SP Adore and Machina are both big departures from the record before. ZG is perhaps a departure in its stripped down straight forward style.

u nailed it man.

Kahlo
08-12-2008, 08:27 AM
It seems obvious, but the approach to Zeitgeist is pretty different to anything I think they have done before. Although it seems pretty contrived at points, I think the band radically turned their backs on the production processes of before (ie: there are no blue skies bring tears style tracks) and stopped pushing outwards as much as turning it the other way and creating a series of stand alone, self contained songs.

Rockin' Cherub
08-12-2008, 08:47 AM
in other words they failed at being ambitious and created a piece of crap mainstream record

tcm
08-12-2008, 08:54 AM
never the twain shall meet, eh?

pale_princess
08-12-2008, 02:26 PM
zeitgeist in another 9 years = overflowing the $1 bin at used cd stores, all colors

Shallowed
08-12-2008, 04:25 PM
I think In Rainbows is quiet lame. They even did a cover of the Chili's Road Trippin' on it, i believe they called it Faust Arp. It's totally not challenging, mate.

I don't think In Rainbows counts as being a challenging album anyway. The last three albums before IR were strange sounding, it makes IR not challenging at all, because you'd expect a strange sounding album from them after what they've put out.

zeitgeist in another 9 years = overflowing the $1 bin at used cd stores, all colors

Heaven for future collectionists.

Thaniel Buckner
08-13-2008, 09:08 AM
the smashing pumpkins were never a boring straight-forward rock and roll band

yet this is exactly what they're trying to be now. i don't get it.
this is pretty much their biggest folly since machina. even with zwan. led zeppelin aren't hailed as the greatest rock band of all time because they purposefully dumbed shit down for the masses and turned the amps up to ten. billy and jimmy are such naturally talented musicians and their best songs are the ones they spent the least amount of time on. they were generally pretty jazzy without even trying. for example in that recent song by song interview with billy and jimmy, they say they spent the most time recording "come on (let's go)" and that song blows shit. billy's worst since "i'm ready". it's just a shame that their best output is the throwaway stuff.

Kahlo
08-14-2008, 02:54 AM
wtf are you on about?

IWishIWasBlank
08-14-2008, 09:09 AM
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x116/leo9productions/Zoink.gif

I had just queued up Ascendo at work when I came upon your post.

I'm tripping balls and don't know what to do guys.

pale blue eyes
08-14-2008, 09:24 AM
the smashing pumpkins were never a boring straight-forward rock and roll band

yet this is exactly what they're trying to be now. i don't get it.

Exactly. Not everything they did was great but it was at least interesting. I think that's why I will never come around to liking Zeitgeist; there's just nothing interesting about it. I think on the albums prior to Zeitgeist, there was something in every album that told you it was a Pumpkins' album. A lot of the songs on Zeitgeist you can imagine other bands doing without it being that much different because it just sounds sort of generic for the most part, and that stands in stark contrast to what kind of band they used to be. It's just disappointing.

Sarcastic Smile
08-14-2008, 10:19 AM
I think Billy takes that as us not being able to not accept change (considering that is all he talks about), but that's not it at all.. I don't want them to make "Siamese Dream 2" as he likes to say but I want them to still be the smashing pumpkins when they make new albums ..This band is/was very diverse and has made a lot of music, b-sides and all that, and I never get bored with their music, I might take a break but when I go back to something I haven't listened to in a while I can still get into it after all these years.... and this album is just.. boring.. it sounds okay, and the musical arrangements aren't bad, but it just doesn't feel like a pumpkins album at all..

T&T
08-14-2008, 11:49 AM
i'm happy with the album
i still can't swallow the first three tracks and (CO)LG, but all the others sound very "pumpkin" to me
that's the way had huge single potential.
tarantula is a fucking great song no matter what anyone says.
starz and undeniable guitar of grandeur
US is a full jimmy blowout, the guy deserves a track after all these years. give him a trophy.
neverlost is classic sentimental melodic billy
bring the light is exactly what we should expect from over the top billy
for god and country is the quirky mix of instruments that every sounds so out of place, it's perfect
and pomp is the epic slow closer

that adds up to a pretty strong album
the "extra" tracks are a huge bonus that everyone seems to love the most
typical of billy/fan tension that we like the b-sides better
and the first three tracks i can only explain as billy trying to fill the "rock" quota
that's what people expect of a "rock band", without them the media would call it another "soft like adore" type album. and i can understand billy being afraid of that.

alls forgiven for me
we'll love the album for it's strengths and weaknesses
in sickness and in health
through rich and poor
in youth and in oldness
and what ever vows we'll need to take.

Gish08
08-14-2008, 04:44 PM
Maybe within nine years there will be a better mix of Zeitgeist available.

jjs1973
08-14-2008, 08:23 PM
zeitgeist 6 months ago = overflowing the $1 bin at used cd stores, all colors

Fixed

pale blue eyes
08-14-2008, 08:41 PM
the "extra" tracks are a huge bonus that everyone seems to love the most
typical of billy/fan tension that we like the b-sides better

The bonus tracks would have been nice had there only been two versions of the album but there were like fifteen and it just seemed like a way to get more sales to me.

AndySlash
08-14-2008, 08:48 PM
zeitgeist in another 9 years = overflowing the $1 bin at used cd stores, all colors

people would have had to buy it in the first place for this to happen.

T&T
08-15-2008, 08:07 AM
The bonus tracks would have been nice had there only been two versions of the album but there were like fifteen and it just seemed like a way to get more sales to me.
it's not fans or listeners that buy music anymore
it's the corporations
units shipped vs units sold.
and they all want their special editions if they're gonna order a skid of your cds

Luke de Spa
08-15-2008, 08:32 AM
90s weezer : 00s weezer :: sp : sp2

green album : zeitgeist. sterile imitation of something that used to be good.

anyway, in nine years we'll be saying "well, at least it wasn't bill's make believe"

Shallowed
08-16-2008, 01:21 AM
US is a full jimmy blowout, the guy deserves a track after all these years. give him a trophy.

What are you talking about? Are you saying that all this time, there hasn't been one track that shows off Jimmy's playing?

Siva
Geek U.S.A.
Silverfuck
Jellybelly
Fuck You (An Ode to No One)
Glass and the Ghost Children
Lucky 13
Glass
Cash Car Star

Jimmy Chamberlain Complex???

the "extra" tracks are a huge bonus that everyone seems to love the most
typical of billy/fan tension that we like the b-sides better

Zeitgeist is the only SP album where I like the b-sides more than the album in general.

stumpycat
08-16-2008, 11:07 PM
I think Billy takes that as us not being able to not accept change (considering that is all he talks about), but that's not it at all..

Well, it's a bit reminiscent of the argument extreme Obama apologists make--that those who don't support him are simply "not able to accept change," while ignoring there may be some substantive issues for which they really don't feel Obama quite hits the mark for them. (Yes, while I feel Obama will be the best choice for many of the issues I feel are important--at least over the other guy--I can get and respect why some self-proclaimed democrats aren't quite comfortable wholeheartedly supporting him. But I digress.) I think the SP2 issue is a bit like that.


I .... and this album is just.. boring.. it sounds okay, and the musical arrangements aren't bad, but it just doesn't feel like a pumpkins album at all..
Yes, I'm listening to Zeitgeist right now...and I'm kind of bobbing my head to some of them...they're generally, okay...kind of fun, I guess. I hear some good stuff buried in there, but then at the moment I'm thinking this to myself it gets spoilt by a moment or element in the music...that isn't so great.

I had just queued up Ascendo at work when I came upon your post.

I'm tripping balls and don't know what to do guys.
LOL, I love those hypnotic flash animations. This one is now fucking up my peripheral vision as I just stare at it, BTW. It's not really supposed to work like that! I wonder what would happen if I really did look at this thing when I was tripping balls...I wonder if the warping effect would cancel itself out, or just be unnoticeable? I should have tried that a couple of days ago.

rottenbroccoli
08-17-2008, 12:01 AM
Maybe within nine years there will be a better mix of Zeitgeist available.

And by mix, you mean color, right?

selection7
08-17-2008, 12:36 AM
To the OP. Adore was better received by the fans than Machina actually. It also got better reviews. It also sold better than Machina. Most of that was because it was coming off the heels of MCIS. It didn't sell nearly as well as it should have and it was so uncommercial and not aimed at the people who thought they liked the Pumpkins that it hurt their reputation/buzz for when Machina was released. Those people who "thought they liked the Pumpkins" are the population SP lost after Adore, leaving them with the core fans who were prepared for a very different album (it had to be different without Jimmy) and were relatively chill with it all.

There seems to be an odd number of newer fans who really like Adore but besides that I haven't noticed any resurgence in respect for Adore. There's absolutely no comparison between the negativity thrown at Zeitgeist as compared to Adore. So the premise of your question is too far off for anyone to properly answer it.

exactlythesame
08-17-2008, 01:21 AM
90s weezer : 00s weezer :: sp : sp2

green album : zeitgeist. sterile imitation of something that used to be good.

anyway, in nine years we'll be saying "well, at least it wasn't bill's make believe"

true dat

Shallowed
08-17-2008, 01:39 AM
There's absolutely no comparison between the negativity thrown at Zeitgeist as compared to Adore. So the premise of your question is too far off for anyone to properly answer it.

Of course, not now, but back in the day it was viewed somewhat negatively, wasn't it?

IWishIWasBlank
08-19-2008, 08:31 AM
Anything would be reviewed negatively if you released Mellon Collie before it.

Edit: Unless it was like, a Beatles album.

Edit Edit: Strawberry (Birthmark) Fields Forever

CrabbMan
10-06-2010, 08:15 PM
Two years later, does anybody have a more favorable opinion than they did? I think I genuinely like it. Definitely in my top 10 Pumpkins albums.

soniclovenoize
10-06-2010, 08:18 PM
Definitely in my top 10 Pumpkins albums.
Morrison Hotel is definitely in my top 6 Doors albums.

paranoid
10-06-2010, 08:42 PM
now that we're 8 songs into teargarden, zeitgeist sounds like gold. but that's been billy's strategy the past 10 years, release an album so bad the one before it looks like a masterpiece. it just keeps getting worse and worse...

SpFission
10-06-2010, 09:16 PM
now that we're 8 songs into teargarden, zeitgeist sounds like gold. but that's been billy's strategy the past 10 years, release an album so bad the one before it looks like a masterpiece. it just keeps getting worse and worse...

I don't know.. I'm liking the the 2nd EP so far better than most if not all of Zeitgeist.

samuel redman
10-06-2010, 10:01 PM
always liked Zeitgeist

Dogfighter28
10-06-2010, 10:03 PM
It still sucks but Teargarden sounds like it might be worse after all is said and done

samuel redman
10-06-2010, 10:06 PM
i really dont think you can even compare the two

paranoid
10-06-2010, 11:33 PM
I don't know.. I'm liking the the 2nd EP so far better than most if not all of Zeitgeist.

mmm.. bring the light, neverlost, thats the way > freak, spangled, fellowship.

although fellowship does beat a few tracks on zeitgeist, but freak and spangled are two songs the belong with the worst of zeitgeist.

stumpycat
10-06-2010, 11:42 PM
Two years later, does anybody have a more favorable opinion than they did? I think I genuinely like it. Definitely in my top 10 Pumpkins albums.
Nope. It's just that I'd rather listen to it than TGBK thus far.

LaBelle
10-07-2010, 01:29 AM
zeitgeist will never really get much respect because of the terrible vocal choices made on it, not only are the melodies bad the delivery is very lazy (not even counting how bad the lyrics are). the choir of billy's could have worked if it was mixed better and had more interesting harmonies...

Astur
10-07-2010, 04:23 AM
i think it's all planned. Willie was so frustrated by negative reactions towards ZG that he wants to outturd himself so when TbK gets finished we all end up appreciating ZG the proper way

samuel redman
10-07-2010, 08:45 AM
i think it's all planned. Willie was so frustrated by negative reactions towards ZG that he wants to outturd himself so when TbK gets finished we all end up appreciating ZG the proper way

i really think this might be true.

Eulogy
10-07-2010, 08:50 AM
Well if they put out an even shittier album in the future, yes, zeitgeist could end up being appreciated a little more

ahhhahahahahaha

samuel redman
10-07-2010, 08:58 AM
Zeitgeist was good, you could tell Billy still REALLY cared at that point.

you could see how absolutely dumbfounded he was when Zeitgeist got the press it did

arCHI
10-07-2010, 10:39 AM
^ thats true. as many questionable choices were made on ZG, and as 1-dimensional as it was,
it still sounded like something that at least belonged in corgans library... albeit on the bottom rung.

honestly, i can't even compute how the man who wrote SD and MCIS is the same man writing TBK. his lyrics haven't been this bad since spiteface.

Slurpee
10-07-2010, 10:55 AM
I still hate it just as much. To me, ZG and TbK are the same awkwardly bad musical thread, with tracks differentiated only by the amount and quality of production on them.

Two years later, it's obvious that if Billy has any chance to make challenging, interesting, rewarding music like Adore again, he's not going to take it. The good beginnings of a mature, intelligent direction in new songs from the residencies and the anniversary tour led nowhere.

antiskum
10-08-2010, 12:00 AM
zeitgeist isn't as terrible as everyone makes it out to be, but it's not good. it's just an average rock ablum. it's got some catchy tracks and that's about all. and in 10 years it won't be remembered as anything other than that.

Trotskilicious
10-08-2010, 02:53 AM
Definitely in my top 10 Pumpkins albums.

This is a joke?

slunken
10-08-2010, 03:42 AM
chillwave is.

redbull
10-08-2010, 03:54 AM
chillwave > zeitgeist

this album will be remember in the same way that people remember the second audioslave album.

antiskum
10-08-2010, 06:27 AM
i'd rather listen to neon indian than zeitgeist

jimmy drevpile
10-08-2010, 01:05 PM
I have warmed to Adore and like Zeitgeist now. meh.

Astur
10-08-2010, 02:08 PM
chillwave > zeitgeist

this album will be remember in the same way that people remember the second audioslave album.

i don't remember the second audioslave album

Spira|_
10-08-2010, 08:46 PM
I totally agree with OP. I had thinking about this before too.

But I dont think this will happen with Zeitgeist because Zerogeist is EMPTY! No feeling in it at all.
You could sell empty CD boxes on the stores for the half of the price... who cares? Half price only for plastic box and the artwork would be fair enough.

Maybe one day Billy could create some genius live versions of a couple of Z songs but the album in a whole would still forgeteable.

killtrocity
10-08-2010, 10:20 PM
Well if they put out an even shittier album in the future, yes, zeitgeist could end up being appreciated a little more

this is already kind of happening

killtrocity
10-08-2010, 10:22 PM
zeitgeist in another 9 years = overflowing the $1 bin at used cd stores, all colors

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/neo313/399.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

antiskum
10-08-2010, 10:47 PM
i don't remember the second audioslave album

who the fuck are audioslave

slunken
10-09-2010, 12:19 AM
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/neo313/399.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Aquateen dvd, computer speakers, and an SP album: $92.37

Allowing a Best Buy receipt let you know that you are a complete loser: priceless.

vbshlofbvgos
10-09-2010, 01:50 AM
i don't remember the second audioslave album

i think thats his point

exactlythesame
10-09-2010, 09:34 AM
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/neo313/399.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

you kept a receipt from 10 months ago

slunken
10-09-2010, 02:13 PM
speakers are prolly waranteed for a year.

exactlythesame
10-09-2010, 02:49 PM
speakers are prolly waranteed for a year.

listening to zeitgeist through them voids the warranty

killtrocity
10-09-2010, 02:52 PM
I actually had scanned that receipt a year ago to post in another thread. The speakers were for my now ex-girlfriend who turned out to be a rotten skank.

slunken
10-09-2010, 02:54 PM
Buying a lover computer speakers is not very romantic.

Ihaguitar
10-09-2010, 03:33 PM
Buying a lover computer speakers is not very romantic.

True, I have done it too though.:blush:

ilikeplanets
10-09-2010, 03:43 PM
If it's something they need and you remember to buy it for them, it is very romantic.

slunken
10-09-2010, 04:02 PM
If it's something they really need and you're buying it for them, it's charity.

ilikeplanets
10-09-2010, 04:19 PM
It's not the fact that you're paying for it, it's the fact that you're listening and responding. You'll understand one day...

Trotskilicious
10-09-2010, 08:18 PM
yeah what about vise-versa? women never listen to anything dudes say.

fuzzyroes
10-11-2010, 06:09 AM
Yeah I dunno. I too really liked Zeitgeist and thought it was a damn good comeback album considering the circumstance. The only valid weakness is obviously that the vocals didn't maintain the same level of energy or emotion that his earlier works had.

Obviously there was a few stinkers like god and country and but overall i really enjoyed it.

I think Billys just lost now and too concerned with what people want to hear.

I prefer Zeitgeist to TBK so far but the songs seem to be improving with each TBK release so I still have faith Billy can hit his stride.

Trotskilicious
10-11-2010, 10:04 AM
if he's so concerned with what other people want to hear how come he hasn't produced anything that anybody wants to hear

(ps shut the fuck up)

stumpycat
10-12-2010, 12:05 AM
if he's so concerned with what other people want to hear how come he hasn't produced anything that anybody wants to hear



Because he has a really fucked up perception about what he "thinks" other people want to hear.

tim2nyy
10-12-2010, 12:52 AM
In 9 years Zeitgeist will be preserved in the National Recording Registry.

ava transformer
10-13-2010, 10:03 AM
i think if zeitgeist was put out by some random other rock band that didn't have the back catalog of the pumpkins it wouldn't be such a flop, but since we have all the prior sp music to compare it to, it's not as great.

that being said i do listen to it in a regular rotation because i enjoy some of the songs & bleeding the orchid is great to pole dance to : )

hnibos
10-13-2010, 10:15 AM
i think if zeitgeist was put out by some random other rock band that didn't have the back catalog of the pumpkins it wouldn't be such a flop, but since we have all the prior sp music to compare it to, it's not as great.


dumb argument. shit music is shit music.


that being said i do listen to it in a regular rotation because i enjoy some of the songs & bleeding the orchid is great to pole dance to : )

:erm:

hnibos
10-13-2010, 10:16 AM
i think corgan would kill any boner

hnibos
10-13-2010, 10:16 AM
bleeding the orchid - euphemism

Kahlo
10-13-2010, 12:06 PM
bleeding the orchid is great to pole dance to

kill any boner

:(

ava transformer
10-13-2010, 02:09 PM
dumb argument. shit music is shit music.



:erm:

that may be your opinion, but if gish , siamese dream , pisces, mcis, tafh, & machina hadn't come before it , it would not have that level of work to stand up against & wouldn't be viewed as bad.


and pug is good to lap dance to...:p

Gish08
10-13-2010, 04:32 PM
Zeitgeist's moments of brilliance have been well discussed, as well as the live show that followed, however I do not think it will be praised in another ten years like some people now praise Machina. Like Machina there are some good songs that are raped by embarrassingly bad production values, but Zeitgeist as a whole just feels kind of lost. Besides, the general consensus was that Machina was always pretty mediocre, Machina 2 is what stood out as being good. There was no Machina 2 this time. There are some post-Zeitgeist stuff like Superchrist, Gossamer (with Jimmy), As Rome Burns, American Gothic, etc. were pretty good, but ever since then Billy has been crapping out whatever boring uninspired song he can string together in his head and acting like a loon.

SP is dead. In 1999-2000 Corgan was still thinking of where to go next, and it was often exciting to see what he would do. That is gone. He's a total shell of his former self and doesn't know anything about what it means to lead a good band anymore. Unlike the slump that occurred in the fanbase last time, you are basically witnessing the end of this band for pretty much anyone who ever (and still) cares.

yoshinobu's revenge
10-15-2010, 10:14 PM
I grew to not hate it, but I still hate the chorus of Billys on Bleeding the Orchid and the production of For God and Country (both of which I skip).

I used to find Doomsday Clock and 7 Shades shallow and unlistenable. Now I think they're shallow and listenable. My favourites were always Tarantula, Bring the Light, Neverlost and the "b-sides" like Stellar, Ma Belle, Death from Above and Zeitgeist. That's the Way, P+C and Starz are okay.

Having taken up drums (sorta) in the last 18 months I appreciate JC in this album a lot more than I used to.

What else has changed I guess is that I can now identify a style in the Zeitgeist era in the SP timeline - I've come to know and expect something from the Z-era songs. Heavy but super simple riffs, lots of repetition but with amazing powerful drumming. United States, Superchrist, &c. So sometimes I might actually want to listen to that style of SP. Whereas before the Z era overall was just sort of clumsy and ugly.

Fonzie
10-21-2010, 12:38 AM
This just got me thinking...

Back in the day, when Adore was released, nearly everyone thought it was a disappointing piece of crap. Fans of Gish, SD and MCIS felt betrayed and confused about this direction.

These days, a lot of fans think that Zeitgeist is a disappointingl piece of crap, Fans of Gish, SD and MCIS feel betrayed and confused about this direction.

Adore turned ten years old recently. Now, nearly every self-respecting Pumpkins fan really enjoys that album. Do you think that Zeitgeist will perhaps be much more universally appreciated in another nine years time?

It's possible.

nah. I still don't really like adore. it reeks of making do.

redbreegull
10-21-2010, 12:43 AM
My opinion of Bring the Light has increased since the album's release. The lyrics are really stupid, but it is a pretty good song. It doesn't really sound like any other SP songs, and the solo is epic. Also, it has the best outro of any song on Zeitgeist.

redbreegull
08-28-2016, 05:53 PM
well here we are 8 years later what do we think

slunken
08-28-2016, 06:18 PM
I still like it - sounds like what it is. A basement / garage album with BC and JC produced by a 70s giant. Essentially a great jam session with vocals tacked on later.

slunken
08-28-2016, 06:20 PM
The AOL sessions really help to realize the aesthetic

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ri7M8dJYlk8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

teh b0lly!!1
08-28-2016, 06:43 PM
it's still exactly the same fucking piece of shit

bc/jc's playing is tight and assaulting but it's way-way-way too one dimensional to be successful even from a strictly metal album angle. it just pummels away and doesn't ever even itself out or become interesting. some songs are a bit better than others (united states is not bad) but it's not a record i'd ever wanted to put on since, and i pretty much know for a fact i never will

slunken
08-28-2016, 07:43 PM
bc/jc's playing is tight and assaulting

it just pummels away

this is what i love about it.

not like i listen to it these days though.

Elphenor
08-28-2016, 07:58 PM
it's shit probably the worst album I've ever heard from a band I like tbh

James Iha's solo album is actually better and I'd never listen to that either

slunken
08-28-2016, 08:12 PM
james' solo album rules

ninsp
08-28-2016, 08:18 PM
Doomsday Clock's first 20 seconds is absolutely badass, one of the most ballsy album intros ever. Then the album goes into mainly shit. Tarantula is a jam though.

Ram27
08-28-2016, 10:34 PM
Let it Come Down is beautiful. The production is so natural and pleasant to listen to.

Doomsday Clock's first 20 seconds is absolutely badass, one of the most ballsy album intros ever. Then the album goes into mainly shit. Tarantula is a jam though.

United States is badass too.

I think the biggest problem was the lack of dynamics: the whole thing just feels very dense and thick. But not in a warm siamesey way, just in a really cold corporate sense.

Like the album version of Pomp and Circumstances feels like drowning in syrup compared to the amazing live version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H61IkX3cFak)

Then everything else was just super dense rock, in the worst sense of the term. The Hummer outro, the Ruby outro, where's that on ZG?

Plus Corgan really needs other people with him to make good things. I love Jimmy but he can only really influence 25% of the sonic landscape of these songs. If the remaining 75% is left to Corgan, bad things will happen.

The Smashing Pumpkins is not just BC and JC jamming, as much as Corgan want(ed) us to believe that.

Disco King
08-28-2016, 10:49 PM
I like 'Neverlost' a lot.

And, fuck everyone, I like 'For God and Country.' Yes, the album version.

I feel like I really wanna say I like 'United States,' but something about it feels kinda not quite there.

redbreegull
08-28-2016, 11:24 PM
I liked Z more when it came out and my opinion leveled off by the end of that summer after I had seen the band live a few times.

It's not a good album. It's also not a terrible album but at the time it was significantly worse than any other Pumpkins' release (it since has been eclipsed several times by much worse releases). The playing by BC and JC is very good. All the guitar and drum parts bring the rock in a familiar way, but like teh bolly said, ultimately the album is too one dimensional to be a great metal album. In many ways, Z is a greatest hits of the original band's different sonic approaches, but it never lets up or lets in the nuance, the dreaminess, the gentle and subtle qualities that made the original band so amazing and unique. Some of the songs are quite bad, but a hand few manage to be good despite the terrible lyrics and terrible vocal production. Tarantula is honestly a great fuckin song and a great single that brings together the hard rock and pop elements of the band's music in a perfect way. US, Bring the Light, and Neverlost are also good (solo in BTL is beyond excellent). There are moments on Z... not whole songs, but moments that are reminiscent of classic Pumpkins and I don't think Corgan has come near that since, except perhaps in the early live performances of Oceania songs.

But 9 years after the album and 8 years after this thread it's just not a worthwhile listen. I put it on a few months ago but couldn't make it through track 5 or 6, not because it's unlistenably bad, but because it's boring. It isn't saying anything or doing anything new or interesting, and the negative qualities make this seem worse. Oceania is much lower in terms of musicianship, but the songs manage to say more and be more interesting.

DaveKShape
08-28-2016, 11:51 PM
It's light years beyond whatever the Teargarten stuff was considered (what a fucking mess that whole project was), but it just completely reeks of Corgan trying to be like "Remember songs like Zero and BWBW??? We're BACK!" with that proto-metal stuff. And I really believe that he was really trying to key into the diehard My Chemical Romance fan-types that heard about the Pumpkins from that band (and similar dark-tinged indie/emo bands) that were itching for new music from their favorite bands' favorite band.

The best part of the album is that weird 10 - 15 seconds around the 3:00 mark in Tarantula where they peel everything back and there's the vulnerability of the original band that somehow made it into 45 straight minutes of "this is what the kids will expect us to make!"

houseofglass11
08-29-2016, 12:22 AM
I like the whole album. Whatever.

redbreegull
08-29-2016, 12:25 AM
Corgan literally described Zeitgeist as a "reintroduction" to the Pumpkins for old fans and newcomers. So yeah, I agree the whole album is attempting to dial in some classic SP sounds. The cybermetal flows strong, but For God and Country attempts to do the dark disco goth thing of Adore a little bit. That's the Way is a loud, splashy ballad like the ones on the Machina albums. Neverlost is reminiscent of some of the drony tracks on MCIS like To Forgive. And the whole album has hints of MSOTS.

I think Billy might see himself a little like Neil Young; an artist with a palette of sounds he reproduces and gives new life to over and over even though most of his albums fall into a few general categories (Crazy Horse Neil Young, acoustic solo folk Neil Young, country Neil Young). It's disappointing because 1) it doesn't work for him and 2) in the original band each album did something sonically totally new and they all have a unique atmosphere/aesthetic to them. All the new Pumpkins albums have been mashups of older sounds mostly.

FlamingGlobes
08-29-2016, 10:40 AM
As an album, it's well-sequenced and I can feel a narrative coursing through it. I've always appreciated that element. It's just that the production sucks and the song-writing is dodgy and downright embarrassing at times. It feels halfway to being a great album, like they just hit a deadline and were like, "Well, fuck it. I guess this is good enough?"

Ram27
08-29-2016, 11:19 AM
As an album, it's well-sequenced and I can feel a narrative coursing through it.

I've literally never felt that before or heard that before about Zeitgeist

FlamingGlobes
08-29-2016, 11:44 AM
I've literally never felt that before or heard that before about Zeitgeist

OK, cool. I will try to make an effort in the future to echo only opinions that you're familiar with and not necessarily ones that are my own.

FlamingGlobes
08-29-2016, 11:45 AM
Hot take: Billy is fat

slunken
08-29-2016, 11:49 AM
I like the whole album. Whatever.

always liked the album.

Hell yea zeitgeist bros

FlamingGlobes
08-29-2016, 12:06 PM
You are STARZ

Shadaloo
08-29-2016, 12:50 PM
A paint-by-numbers album that feels tacked together and a little soulless, ostensibly trying to make some manner of point without really saying anything at all.

Possible worst case in the discography - unless you're counting Zwan - of leaving some of the best songs from the sessions off the album (especially awful here as they all became store-exclusive extra tracks).

It has moments. Neverlost is beautiful through and through, and I enjoy United States, That's The Way and 7 Shades. I almost like Bleeding the Orchid - and really would if not for the ridiculous fucking Billy chorus.

I'll still throw it on once or twice a year. I can bob my head to a fair amount of it, but nothing aside from Neverlost really makes me feel anything like the older albums did.

Doesn't deserve a lot of the shit it gets. Doesn't merit much in the way of praise. Just really average and could have been a lot better.

redbreegull
08-29-2016, 02:49 PM
the fact that so many of the songs are almost good is actually worse/more painful than if they were just throwaway garbage like early Teargarden IMO.

Forgotten Child
08-29-2016, 03:41 PM
The album is not as good as some of us wanted it to be, not as bad as some of us thought it was.

Billy never realised that the future of the band depended on that album. It would be compared to his best work, not to his worst. A "good" album would never be good enough.

patj825
08-29-2016, 06:26 PM
Hell yea zeitgeist bros

I like Zeitgeist too. When I first heard it (when it was released) the vocal production was so different that I had a hard time accepting it. After listening to live shows (acoustic and electric) and the AOL session, I came to really like the album and the songs--and even the vocal production. And I really enjoyed the residency shows. Live SP and recorded SP are different, but complementary, as they should be.

It's funny how some like each of the previous albums because they were very different from each other, but dislike Zeitgeist because it lacks similarities to previous albums.

fuzzyroes
08-29-2016, 09:00 PM
90s weezer : 00s weezer :: sp : sp2

green album : zeitgeist. sterile imitation of something that used to be good.

anyway, in nine years we'll be saying "well, at least it wasn't bill's make believe"

How true this is... Bills Make Believe is Teargarden

fuzzyroes
08-29-2016, 09:21 PM
Zeitgeist is the best work he's put out post-reunion.... But it hasn't really aged all that well.

It's pretty much a spotty album with a few standout moments and a few good songs mixed within a bunch of crap.

fuzzyroes
08-29-2016, 09:23 PM
It's too bad cause the musicianship's great, but they just botched the vocals so fucking badly.

The vocals on songs like That's The Way, Pomp and Lets Go seem to suffer the least from the dry vocal production and they're unsurprisingly some of the best tracks on the album.

patj825
08-30-2016, 02:19 PM
That's a pretty good description.

I think the fans would have appreciated this album a little better if different songs had been chosen for the core album. Tracks like 99 floors, Sunkissed, Stellar, MaBelle etc.. For God & Country even sounded great acoustically.. Aside from the vocals being mixed crappy, this era of SP wasn't horrible by any means..

This show, and the acoustic sessions from IAGW are pretty great IMO..

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/iVxzMCOmubQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That is a great show.
https://archive.org/details/tsp2007-06-05.mbho.flac16

BurtSampson
08-30-2016, 02:54 PM
That is a great show.
https://archive.org/details/tsp2007-06-05.mbho.flac16

never heard United States acoustic neat

patj825
08-30-2016, 06:51 PM
The XM Artist Confidential is also great
http://thepumpkins.net/music/701-music-xm-artist-confidential

redbreegull
08-30-2016, 10:39 PM
It's funny how some like each of the previous albums because they were very different from each other, but dislike Zeitgeist because it lacks similarities to previous albums.

did someone say that? I'm not sure I've ever heard that. Most people I think would say Z is a shameless rehash of old Pumpkins. Again, even Billy said it was meant as a reintroduction to the band's music.

The last thing Billy did that actually accomplished something new for him sonically was TFE.

slunken
08-30-2016, 11:20 PM
TFE sucks so hard it's unforgivable. How hard did it suck? On the day it was released he publicly begged his band to reform.

slunken
08-30-2016, 11:21 PM
If you want to champion TTE, take a look at zeitgeist.

slunken
08-30-2016, 11:22 PM
Also what pat mentioned is so true. Real heads know.

redbreegull
08-30-2016, 11:52 PM
I didn't say anything about the quality of the music on TFE, I said it was unexplored sonic territory for Billy Corgan and it represents the last time in his career that he really ventured into something foreign for himself.

Elphenor
08-31-2016, 12:25 AM
TFE is boring but not horrible or anything while ZG is just embarrassing

Disco King
08-31-2016, 12:40 AM
I've listened to TFE like once.

The only songs I can remember are "The Camera Eye" and "Walking Shade." And I can really only remember the opening part to "Walking Shade" and the fact that he's wearing an embarrassing steampunk costume in the video.

Corgan's Bluff
08-31-2016, 01:56 AM
Jimmy Chamberlin in 2008: "We honestly believe that our best records are ahead of us." :banging:

https://youtu.be/FTSOAofPBNs?t=16s

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FTSOAofPBNs?t=16s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

MyKeyZ
08-31-2016, 02:34 AM
I'll take Zeitgeist over any other post-SP 1.0 releases. At least it has some edge and occasional aggressiveness. There is a sense of momentum. The mixing and production could use some love.

teh b0lly!!1
08-31-2016, 04:19 AM
i think TFE is much better than Zeitgeist, if only for the fact that it makes an effort to tread uncharted territory. it's not a great record by any means, but i do think it has a few vibey moments on it. and Tilt is fucking legit great. zeitgeist, on the other hand, is just a dissociated attempt (first of many more to come) of trying to 'give teh fans what they want' and rawk as hard as possible in a very dispassionate way, without any real drive behind it. also, it probably features the worst vocals of any album i'd ever listened to.

patj825
08-31-2016, 09:41 AM
One of my favorite TFE era shows:
https://archive.org/details/bc2005-07-28

FoolofaTook
08-31-2016, 01:06 PM
The cover art for TFE sums up the music: cringe-worthy.

Shitegeist is a turd. You guys are comparing shit with shit.

FoolofaTook
08-31-2016, 01:07 PM
Only meth and Darcy can save bEllie now.

Ram27
08-31-2016, 03:57 PM
or acid. i mean, gish was pretty good

toase
08-31-2016, 09:32 PM
tfe > zeitgeist

redbreegull
08-31-2016, 10:13 PM
Mina Loy, A100, Walking Shade, Sorrows, and DIA are all pretty solid songs. There are maybe 2 songs on Zeitgeist which are solid all the way through.

T&T
09-01-2016, 01:35 AM
can't we just wait another 9 years. I don't think this thread is worth visiting yet.

RenewRevive
09-01-2016, 05:24 AM
it's shit probably the worst album I've ever heard from a band I like tbh

James Iha's solo album is actually better and I'd never listen to that either

I'd got with "Around the Sun" by REM.

teh b0lly!!1
09-01-2016, 06:02 AM
There are maybe 2 songs on Zeitgeist which are solid all the way through.

bahahaha

RenewRevive
09-01-2016, 06:10 AM
After the disappointment of MSotS and the Zwan meltdown I was puzzled by Corgan's stab at a solo album. Whereas Zwan (live, at least) had a warm, organic sound TFE was all pro-tools and digital sterility. Sure there were a few decent songs and I stick it on occasionally. He still managed (even with presumably not a massive amount of material to choose from) to stick a duff version of a Bee Gees song on the album, in place of the decent "Tilt". which of course is classic BC. Plus the ridiculous steampunk affectations.

Then we got the SP reformation announcement and I did a 180 and was pretty stoked, dissipated by the subsequent news that it would be just Billy and Jimmy. Then the leak of Tarantula which made me uneasy about the new album's direction. Then the overwhelming clunker of Zeitgeist appeared, soulless, badly mastered, ghastly synthetic sheen, Corgan's amped-up vocals and the ghastly "oh-oh-ohs" and "ah-ah-ahs", which is either evidence of Billy's growth as a confident singer (nah) or inability to allow any space to exist (probably US is the exception). Even the otherwise decent songs (Starz etc) are ruined to some extent by this tendency to not shut the fuck up. Even Corgan's guitar was sometimes irritating (Brian May impersonation on BTL for example). Virtually every song appeared better live (God + Country an obvious example), which showed that maybe the songs weren't all that bad, at least at some point in the recording process. A new bottomless pit in terms of translating songs into a CD for BC; granted most of the TbK stuff sound even worse, although I'd say the songs themselves are irredeemable in many cases - Owata being an exception. Uninspired drumming notwithstanding at least Oceania actually sounded like the material played live.