so... its been about a year now. what's the verdict?

it usually takes about a year for pumpkin albums to sink in with me, so i think i've reached my mine. in short: this may be the worst pumpkins album. to put things into perspective, i actually thought machina was amazing. zwan, in retrospect, was a professional misstep, but TFE was a proper rebound. people knock it, but i daresay it may be one of the best shoegaze albums ever.

when i heard sp was being ressurrected and they were "going back to their roots" i was ambivalent at first. but then word got out that it was supposed to have an overt political theme, and i thought it made sense, considering the times and everything. i imagined heavy power chords, lyrics dealing with tyranny and facism... then the album art leaked and i got even more excited. seemed like this album would have more scope and ambition than anything before....

so then the album drops. of course there are some amazing songs, and it's not a bad album by any means. but for a pumpkins album - the first in 7 years - it was surprisingly pedestrain. other than some production tricks with the vocals, i can't really see how this dares to try anything new. wasn't evolution mandatory for every album?

in short, the problem is that this album was made with commercial masses in mind. and this is a fact, as billy's admitted that in interviews. i understand he feels the need to keep the band alive and all, but can't he just be content with the current fan base's size instead of pandering to those who may make it grow. again, it's a good album, probably one of the better albums of the year, but artistic vision isn't what its creation was founded upon.

Please, please just stop, we reached maximum troll capacity at least 8 months ago

its a valid topic, adjust your panties

<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2558554804_4861278d97_m.jpg" height="180" width="240" /></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjnolan/2558555512/"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3255/2558555512_ccf0e188db_m.jpg" height="180" width="240" /></a></p>


see http://hipstersunited.com/blog/archives/2008/06/zeitgeist-the-dark-blue-box-editions.html



anyways i really like the album. i enjoy it a lot more now than i have ever. good album. as solid as machina

tarantula/united states=good
DC/that's the way=would be good with better chorus
starz=okay i guess
the rest=barely tolerable

woah wtf is that book?

sweet cover!

sweet cover!

terrible album!

i feel that BTO has to be the best song off of this album. its so awesome i can't believe we didn't see that as a single

1 year later...

seeing the zeitgeist tour live made me appreciate the album more. The "rockers" are good, neverlost is okay, FG&C grew on me, and Pomp makes me wanna play the guitar. DFA is the best song to come out of the cycle.

Knowing that this album, which I find to be fairly decent, was deliberately made "mainstreamish" just makes me more excited for what is to come. By today's standards, Zeitgeist is a pretty good modern rock album. It will be interesting to see what Billy and co. do now that they don't necessarily have to go out and reintroduce themselves.

<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2558554804_4861278d97_m.jpg" height="180" width="240" /></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjnolan/2558555512/"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3255/2558555512_ccf0e188db_m.jpg" height="180" width="240" /></a></p>


see http://hipstersunited.com/blog/archives/2008/06/zeitgeist-the-dark-blue-box-editions.html

Awesome, I knew there'd be at least one more version of Zeitgeist poppin' up somewhere. :rolleyes:

When Zeitgeist first "dropped" (I thought this term only applied to rap/hip-hop albums) I was in the minority of those who actually liked it, I felt it was good, I wasn't expectin' anything spectacular from this "comeback album." Along with the low expectations for the album, I think the excitement of just having SP back made me feel better about the album back then. A year later now it's become a forgettable album to me, where I no longer care to listen to most of the album, I'll just listen to the few songs I really liked from first listen (Tarantula, BTL for example). I've lumped it into the same category as other SP and SP related albums: MACHINA I & II, MSOS and TFE- as albums I thought were weak and only offered a handful of bright spots. Though last year I felt that Zeitgeist was at least better than the MACHINAs, I don't think so now. I tend to agree now with the negative majority that believes that Zeitgeist is the weakest album produced under the Smashing Pumpkins label.

tfe does not equal shoegaze

i will comment on zeitgeist after i listen to it, its been months.

shoegaze


CLOWNING ON BITCHES

tfe does not equal shoegaze
.

it's agrumentative. it may sound more like sisters of mercy than my bloody valentine, but most of the album is effects-laden guitars (even though they sound like synthesizers half the time) all overlapping eachother. and that's pretty much the textbook definition of shoegaze

edit: and i guess you could call it a new wave album as well

tfe sounds nothing like classic shoegaze. come the fuck on.

most of the album is effects-laden guitars (even though they sound like synthesizers half the time) all overlapping eachother. and that's pretty much the textbook definition of shoegaze

would you say that Liars - Drum's Not Dead is a shoegaze record? What about the song Treefingers by Radiohead? or The Crying Tree of Mercury?

I would rank Zeitgeist as SP's worst album. With that said, I still liked it. This album lacked the angst, energy, and uniqueness created in each of the first 5 albums. I also have no idea why TTW was chosen as a single over BTL.

Wait. Why are we talking about Z as one year later. Its only been 11 months since the street release

I love it, but it doesn't come close to my favourites - MCIS and Machina (1 and 2).

I agree that it's not as brilliant as Adore or SD either (from an objective point of view), but some of the songs are classics (7SoB, Starz, Tarantula, FGAC). Currently I listen to Zeitgeist more than any other SP album.

It's solid without being perfect.

would you say that Liars - Drum's Not Dead is a shoegaze record? What about the song Treefingers by Radiohead? or The Crying Tree of Mercury?

iirc treefingers is more of an ambient synth track. crying tree... well alot of machina could be categorized as shoegaze. but i think crying tree was one of the few synth rock songs (think God and Country). never heard liars, tbh

Wait. Why are we talking about Z as one year later. Its only been 11 months since the street release

er.. beacause that's pretty much a year's worth of time

everybody needs to shut the fuck up about 'shoegaze this' and 'everlasting gaze that.' this board has blown up with shoegaze bullshit ever since jeff shredder joined the band and everyone found out he was in a 'shoegaze band'

uh.. what

tfe does not equal shoegaze

i think the dude's confusing it with zeit

A year in these are my impressions:

Zeitgeist is the Pumpkins' weakest album, but it is still far better than MSOTS. It has the least depth of any Pumpkins album being followed by the Machina records. As a whole piece of work it might be easier to listen to than Machina which can be grating and overwhelming at times (there are so many things going on, and nothing ever lets up...I don't know how to explain this feeling really), but it also lacks the vision that Machina had. Sure, the Machina idea was ridiculous and didn't work, but Zeitgeist has no binding feeling or theme or motif or anything. It just sounds like they sat down and wrote some songs that sound like a variety of their old material. There is also very little to these songs musically. They lack the dynamics of ANY of Corgan's past records. All the interplay between countless sounds and layers of guitar has been sacrificed for a really stupid vocal gimmick.

Which brings me to the vocals. God, what the fuck. Corgan's voice never ever ever, not even once bothered me until this album. Beyond any complaints of Freddy Mercury imitation or the low caliber of Corgan's vocal ability, it just sounds so fucking stupid and hokey. There are lots of place on the other records where Corgan's voice is overdubbed 3 or 4 times in different octaves or in harmony, and that all sounds fine. But the way this was done is a travesty.

There is no energy in this album. Even Jimmy sounds like he is asleep.

The lyrics are poor by Corgan standard and sound more like MSOTS than Pumpkins.

Things I liked. Hmm. That's the Way, especially during the spacey part through the solo. Tarantula. The guitar part to Starz. United States is pretty good, even though it doesn't have enough depth or weirdness for it to live up to other Pumpkins epics, it rocks pretty hard. My favorite moment on the album is a tie between when US slows way down and Corgan's voice repeats over and over with the pitch shift down and the guitar solo in Bring the Light. I hate Come On Let's Go, it fucking sucks. Pomp is nice but waaaay overdone. I can imagine it being nice as just a piano ballad.

I don't know what the think of the bonus tracks because I am unsure of how to process the album. Do I ******* the bonus tracks in my judgment of Zeitgeist or do they not count? The song Zeitgeist is BY FAR the best thing that came out of the entire era.

Final thoughts: um. This album comes across to me as something that was founded on some good ideas (listen to the acoustic show from Berlin, some of these songs sound significantly better) but really got mauled by bad production, bad mixing, bad mastering, a few bad songs, a lack of vision throughout, and Come On Let's Go.

after one year, zeitgeist is still crap

still be than machina at least

A year in these are my impressions:

Final thoughts: um. This album comes across to me as something that was founded on some good ideas (listen to the acoustic show from Berlin, some of these songs sound significantly better) but really got mauled by bad production, bad mixing, bad mastering, a few bad songs, a lack of vision throughout, and Come On Let's Go.
are we talking about machina, msots, tfe, or zetigeist in this paragraph?

after one year, zeitgeist is still crap

still be than machina at least

This was a pretty common initial reaction but I fail to see why it is "better" than Machina. Like I said, it is easier to listen to all the way thru, but that's about it. The good songs on Machina are waaay better than the good songs on Zeitgeist. SIYL is one the best Pumpkins songs, hands down. Additionally, I find it more interesting to hear someone take a risk and not fully succeed than write an album with the intention of returning the band to the public eye.

are we talking about machina, msots, tfe, or zetigeist in this paragraph?

Always the clever cynic

good or great songs: doomsday, 7shades, orchid, tarantula, united states, zeitgeist, gossamer, stellar, superchrist
terrible songs: death from above, cmon lets go, for god, pomp
the rest are ok
...
and yeah rose march and pox also kick ass if we look at the whole zeitgeist era

Gossamer/Death from Above
Bring the Light
Doomsday Clock
For God and Country
Ma Belle
Tarantula
Bleeding the Orchid
Run, Shaker Life
Lips Like Sugar
The Rose March
Question Mark
Zeitgeist
Superchrist
I'm Doing the Best I Can
United States
7 Shades of Black
Neverlost
99 Floors
Psalm 131
The Leaving Lament
That's the Way (My Love Is)
Pomp and Circumstances
Mama
Set the Controls
I Don't Mind
If All Goes Wrong
If Only in a Dream
Starz
Stellar
The Zoo
No Surrender
Peace and Love
Promise Me
(Come On) Let's Go!
Again Again Again/Sunkissed/Pox

One year later, I still can't listen to For God and Country or Doomsday Cock.

is that list in some sort of order?

i'd say that it's a decent enough album, but i've come to expect far more than just "decent" from billy corgan. at first i was really excited about it, but over time it wore thin. It left very little lasting impressions on me. I did love the bonus tracks, all of them. I love pomp, I enjoy 7 shades, that's the way isn't too bad. The live show was amazing, but the album ultimately falls flat. I miss the introspective, emotional quality that i grew to love with the pumpkins. As I said in another thread not long ago, I don't know if it's me who's changed or the band, but at this point in time, we've definitely grown apart. And to repeat another of my sentiments, I still have hope that they'll put out something I'll love again, which is why I stick around. They mean a lot to me and always will, but z didn't do much for me. I think I have to agree with others who have said that this is the worst pumpkins release yet. That said, even the worst by the pumpkins is pretty good, so I don't hate it or anything.

verdict: it still SUCKS

good songs: tarantula, us, neverlost, zeitgeist
bad songs: cmon lets go, btl (i don't get why people like this. its so generic sounding) and starz

The worst thing I ever posted on this board was when I listened a few times and decided it was better than Machina. I don't know what I was thinking.

Machina hurts my ears and is awful to listen to but there are a handful of tracks that are better than everything on Zeitgeist combined.

That being said the album blows but the songs I like the most are the songs everyone else on this board hates, so whatever, fuck it.

Machina is still the worst.

This was a pretty common initial reaction but I fail to see why it is "better" than Machina. Like I said, it is easier to listen to all the way thru, but that's about it. The good songs on Machina are waaay better than the good songs on Zeitgeist. SIYL is one the best Pumpkins songs, hands down. Additionally, I find it more interesting to hear someone take a risk and not fully succeed than write an album with the intention of returning the band to the public eye.

How is it "easier" to listen to than Machina when the songs aren't as good? That makes no sense. All in all, Zeitgeist is a good record. The best songs to me are "fun" to listen to and some I don't really like that much, but it is what it is and its the least favorite SP record of mine and many.

The past has nothing to do with Zeitgeist, but we can all look towards the future because the best thing of all is that SP is still making music.

The worst thing I ever posted on this board was when I listened a few times and decided it was better than Machina. I don't know what I was thinking.

Machina hurts my ears and is awful to listen to but there are a handful of tracks that are better than everything on Zeitgeist combined.

That being said the album blows but the songs I like the most are the songs everyone else on this board hates, so whatever, fuck it.


I would value your opinion if you weren't such a fat fuck.

everybody needs to shut the fuck up about 'shoegaze this' and 'everlasting gaze that.' this board has blown up with shoegaze bullshit ever since jeff shredder joined the band and everyone found out he was in a 'shoegaze band'
YES!

* * *
1 year later and I still haven't listened to Z more than a handful of times, don't care for the album at all, but I do like some of the songs alot and listen to them all the time when I listen to the 2007-2008 boots. They came across really great live.

I would value your opinion if you weren't such a fat fuck.

I would value your opinion if you weren't such a lousy troll.

Enjoy the ignore list.

Sheissengeist is definitely the bottom of the heap when it comes to SP material. What Bill should do *right now* is release another album, that way Z can't sink in any further. Distract the masses with something else to occupy their short attention spans.

Edit: Something a little more than "NEW SINGLE IN SEPTEMBER! *JOYGASM*"

Awesome, I knew there'd be at least one more version of Zeitgeist poppin' up somewhere. :rolleyes:


Who knows what next? Maybe an ipod will come out in a Zeitgeist wrap.

Did you get contacts yet Monte? I'm serious about that. And stop cutting your hair for a while.

i agree with most of what redbreegull outlines in his initial post, although i have a soft spot for COLG - though i totally get why people hate it.

personally the album sags after US; even if the terrible vocal production (courtesy of that worthless fuck RTB) mars almost everything. best tracks for me are DC, 7SOB, Starz, US. pick of the bonus tracks would be zeitgeist itself and ma belle.

in all some nice songs/moments but a lot of misfires; in all the worst pumpkins album, though as has been said already it is still a good record overall. i have probably only listened to it a couple of times over the last several months.

Billys vocals lack emotion in this album. Some great riffs that cudve been so much better with some angsty trademark Corgan snarls.. " U should want it all" in doomsday clock. ugh..

Don't worry, in two years another pumpkins album will be out that's so bad it will make you think big Z is awesome. You know, like how Machina now seems like a true alt rock masterpiece.

Don't worry, in two years another pumpkins album will be out that's so bad it will make you think big Z is awesome. You know, like how Machina now seems like a true alt rock masterpiece.

:erm: "Don't worry, in 2 years an even worse pumpkins album will come out!", ...

still horribly shit

It's an odd album to think about. I think the drumming is fantastic on it, but the lyrics and vocals just terrible. It's a decent album to listen to once or twice every couple of months, but it's quality takes a sudden nose dive if you give it any more attention. In this aspect it may be the worst smashing pumpkins album, even though it can be more enjoyable than machina if you are listening to zeitgeist for the first time in 4-5 months.

The fact that I can't be bothered to listen to it again says something I guess. The worst Pumpkins album, I still feel the era really could have been something more especially because of Gossamer. Gossamer is brilliant, they really should have just made an album of songs like that, fuck it could have been so good.

United States
BTO
Pomp
Neverlost
Stellar
Zeitgeist
Some of the residency stuff.

^ A few other songs worth mentioning I guess, not a complete tragedy. Though not really touching on the previous Pumpkins material.

I think we're all on the same page when it comes to the awfulness of Billy's lyrics, vocal production, and emotion behind the vocal delivery.

I think its easy to connect the dots from the man he is now to the emptiness we feel from the vocals/lyrics in Zeitgeist. And its a shame because all of the other records (even MSOTS & TFE) I've come to identify with then and now, in different and evolving ways.

How is it "easier" to listen to than Machina when the songs aren't as good? That makes no sense.

You are thinking too linearly. Machina is a very hard album to sit down and listen to. It is long, it is filled with grating fuzz and every track has a thousand things going on at the same time. Whereas in the Pumpkin' previous albums, the intensity of the record and even in the tracks themselves ebbs and flows so that you feel like you are given a break from it, in Machina the intensity and crowded quality of the music never ceases. This makes it very difficult to really listen to the whole record. Despite this it has The Everlasting Gaze, I of the Mourning, With Every Light, GATGC, and Age of Innocence to hold it up. These songs, while suffering from some of the failures of Machina, are good tracks regardless and manage to drown out the missteps present on the album. And then there is Stand Inside Your Love, which like I said, is simply one of the best songs Corgan has ever written.

Zeitgeist does not really have any of the harsh qualities that Machina had. The guitars are back to sounding like guitars and not static on your TV when the cable goes out. Corgan's voice is technically much improved despite the vocal shenanigans. The songs are straightforward hard rock songs that all have obvious hooks and there are guitar solos too, which Machina kind of lacked. It is a much more acceptable album to the mainstream and on an occasional listen it may even sound like a better effort. HOWEVER, U.S., 7SOB, That's the Way, and Tarantula do not hold a candle to I of the Mourning or Stand Inside Your Love. When you really listen you will find that Machina's failings are primarily in the way it was carried out while the failings of Zeitgeist begin in the songwriting.

Ultimately making Machina the superior album and Zeitgeist the easier listen.

I agree with you on SIYL, but Machina has a sort of bouyancy that makes it fun to listen to. I don't see it as hard at all. The lyrics are a band, literally, breaking up, but they're tragically beautiful as Billy used to do so well.

You say, "These songs, while suffering from some of the failures of Machina, are good tracks regardless and manage to drown out the missteps present on the album." So what are the missteps?

1 - TTT
2 - HMM
3 - BSBT (would have been awesome to put "heavy" version, but that's beside the point)
4 - Imploding Voice (? I, for one, love the song)
5 - Crying Tree

So 5 songs out of 15 of the original release version make it hard to listen to? I don't buy it. Plus, the Japanese version is even better with Speed Kills and BSBT as the closer (that way you don't have to skip it).

You forgot to mention other songs that make it very easy on the ears... Age of Innocence, This Time, and The Sacred & Profane are better than anything off Zeitgeist.

you know what the problem with zeitgeist really is? it isnt heavy

it's agrumentative. it may sound more like sisters of mercy than my bloody valentine, but most of the album is effects-laden guitars (even though they sound like synthesizers half the time) all overlapping eachother. and that's pretty much the textbook definition of shoegaze

edit: and i guess you could call it a new wave album as well

See the TFE video. Billy says that it's all electronic. Each song, except for Strayz, has only one guitar track on it.

No, its because Billy isn't a) broke b) in love c) going thru divorce d) dealing with megastardom e) losing his mother f) losing his band

He's just a rich, spoiled 40 year old who's out of touch with the kidz. The only thing he has left is drugs or losing his Dad (not that I would wish that upon him... losing his Dad that is).

You are thinking too linearly. Machina is a very hard album to sit down and listen to. It is long, it is filled with grating fuzz and every track has a thousand things going on at the same time. Whereas in the Pumpkin' previous albums, the intensity of the record and even in the tracks themselves ebbs and flows so that you feel like you are given a break from it, in Machina the intensity and crowded quality of the music never ceases. This makes it very difficult to really listen to the whole record. Despite this it has The Everlasting Gaze, I of the Mourning, With Every Light, GATGC, and Age of Innocence to hold it up. These songs, while suffering from some of the failures of Machina, are good tracks regardless and manage to drown out the missteps present on the album. And then there is Stand Inside Your Love, which like I said, is simply one of the best songs Corgan has ever written.

Zeitgeist does not really have any of the harsh qualities that Machina had. The guitars are back to sounding like guitars and not static on your TV when the cable goes out. Corgan's voice is technically much improved despite the vocal shenanigans. The songs are straightforward hard rock songs that all have obvious hooks and there are guitar solos too, which Machina kind of lacked. It is a much more acceptable album to the mainstream and on an occasional listen it may even sound like a better effort. HOWEVER, U.S., 7SOB, That's the Way, and Tarantula do not hold a candle to I of the Mourning or Stand Inside Your Love. When you really listen you will find that Machina's failings are primarily in the way it was carried out while the failings of Zeitgeist begin in the songwriting.

Ultimately making Machina the superior album and Zeitgeist the easier listen.

I think you hit the nail on the head but I enjoy more songs on Zeitgeist than i do on Machina making it the consistently better album. However, I agree no song on Zeitgeist can touch SIYL and a couple of others on Machina.

I'd say it is probably their worst effort. I do like some tunes from it (Starz, TTWMLI, Tarantula, 7 shades, Neverlost), but its hard to not ignore that it does feel a bit inauthentic (United States, etc). Vocals still bug me, must bolly drown out everything with those loud vocals?

I'd be more interested in hearing demos for this album. I bet they'd be 1mil times better.

I think a major problem with Zeitgeist is its lack of long lasting appeal, most of the songs sound too much like they were designed to be singles and are a bit too poppy to retain their appeal.

The one big killer is on the crescendo of US when Billy is supposed to release a blood-curdling scream, he goes, "ooh!" like a little pussy-ass bitch.

I heard that the first time (and every time after that) and went, "ugh." I shake my head in disappointment. It could have been so awesome! The biggest mistake in all of Zeitgeist.

I'm serious.

Execute order 66
http://www.vegatransports.com.au/starwars/EP3/ep3_atrt_movie.jpg





Though Z is decent enough with a few gems(Ma Belle Stellar Bring The Light)

i think zeitgeist was completely ruined by the fact that billy and jimmy actually went out of their way to make a "reintroduction" album that they thought a lot of people might latch onto. the album comes off as a completely contrived attempt to make dumb catchy rock songs that any average 14 year old would try to learn while taking guitar lessons. even songs like united states are appealing to the guitar-nerd facet of the pumpkins audience while grasping for credibility as a "heavy band".

sure, there are moments of guitar work and drumming that are played well, but they come off as flashing shiny objects in front of moron's faces, trying to draw "oohs" and "aahs" from otherwise forgetful drivel. the album is so immensely robotic that i can't even say i feel *anything* listening to any of those songs. in that sense, to me, the album is a completely failure.

Zeitgeist is missing all of the heart and soul and emotion that the other records bled.

http://www.dareolonoh.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/broken%20record.jpg

the first 2 songs are pretty good, 7 shades of black is great, and then neverlost and pomp stand out a little bit from the rest of the flaming mediocrity.

its just very very very mediocre, while this album only starts off with 3 good songs, half of machina was pretty solid.

when i heard sp was being ressurrected and they were "going back to their roots" i was ambivalent at first. but then word got out that it was supposed to have an overt political theme, and i thought it made sense, considering the times and everything. i imagined heavy power chords, lyrics dealing with tyranny and facism... then the album art leaked and i got even more excited. seemed like this album would have more scope and ambition than anything before....


I know EXACTLY what you mean. I remember when the official page first went live again and it had message about how the Pumpkins were back together, then came Jimmy's "love letters" where he talked about how amazing the music was, how it was going to "crush souls," how it was coming from a completely true place, and how the record was all about being Smashing Pumpkins, regardless of what the mainstream thought. The political theme that seemed to be present in both the title of the album, titles of songs, and artwork only seemed to make things more appealing. Then we had the live shows, which as many have pointed out, showcase the songs brilliantly. Watching videos of "United States" from the Paris revival show truly made me want to get Zeitgeist.

As many have pointed out, the album is simply mediocre. Not necessarily because the songs are terrible (but there are some clunkers on there) but mainly because the album lacked the cohesion all the other albums had. The album comes off as more of a mixtape of songs the band was working on at the time than an album. It just lacks that togetherness all the other albums had. I have to admit that the track order was somewhat rectified on the Best Buy reissue, but it still just lacks staying power. Half of the album seems to be about the band "rawking" like old days, while the other half seems to be trying to be a little (but not too) experimental.

So what good has come out of this? Well the live shows have simply been amazing, and I think the current touring lineup is one of the strongest versions of the band we have ever seen. Even some of the albums weaker tracks (That's the Way, Starz, (Come On) Let's Go) have been given new life performed live. We got one excellent song out of American Gothic ("The Rose March" was amazing, no matter how shitty the rest of the EP was), and of course I can honestly say Superchrist was one of the coolest SP songs in a while.

The one big killer is on the crescendo of US when Billy is supposed to release a blood-curdling scream, he goes, "ooh!" like a little pussy-ass bitch.

I heard that the first time (and every time after that) and went, "ugh." I shake my head in disappointment. It could have been so awesome! The biggest mistake in all of Zeitgeist.

I'm serious.

I agree entirely. Whenever I hear that part of the song, I prepare for a scream like the ones Billy gave in songs like "Silverfuck" or "X.Y.U." and not only do we get a lame ass scream, but we get one that sounds like a computer game later in the song. I know Billy is still capable of screaming; when I saw them live Billy screamed so loud the paint almost peeled off the walls.

This is hard to say. If we're talking about the Zeitgeist album proper, then although I don't think there's any unbearaborrible songs, the album itself does seem like it's made for the ipod shuffle era.

If we take out a few of the clunker tracks (US, Neverlost, FG&C, COLG) and throw in Rose March, Gossamer, Ma Belle, Stellar, Superchrist and the title track. then I think it's up there with Machina and Pisces....

Wrongs cards were put in the wrong places. Had a lot of the b-side bonus tracks been on the album (Ma Belle, Stellar, Superchrist (had it existed), Zeitgeist) I feel the album would have been received much better. Those are the more Smashing Pumpkin-y songs that came out of the era as they lack the same depth of the absolutely crappy vocal master of the album and actually kind of, sort of, have an atmosphere to them. Well except for Ma Belle's chorus which reeks of Zeitgeist vocal production. While most of the album feels pretty 1 dimensional to me.

to me zeitgeist is just another pumpkins album. each album has been different than the ones before it and zeitgeist continues that trend. this is an album of pop songs. they picked the right producer for the job (the king of pop rock songs) and they executed it brilliantly. I don't like the songs as much as others, but I don't like the songs any less.

an album released by the smashing pumpkins in 2007 with the name 'zeitgeist' could only contain pop songs, especially following billy comments about current trends in music, record labels, and bands

I agree. Had Come On (Let's Go) and For God And Country (never took to it after hearing the acoustic version) been replaced by Ma Belle at track 4 (with That's The Way at track 11) and Stellar at track 10 this album would have been recieved a lot better. The depth was there. They just made them B-Sides. As it is it's a good but not great album.

Zeitgeist does not really have any of the harsh qualities that Machina had. The guitars are back to sounding like guitars and not static on your TV when the cable goes out. Corgan's voice is technically much improved despite the vocal shenanigans. The songs are straightforward hard rock songs that all have obvious hooks and there are guitar solos too, which Machina kind of lacked. It is a much more acceptable album to the mainstream and on an occasional listen it may even sound like a better effort. HOWEVER, U.S., 7SOB, That's the Way, and Tarantula do not hold a candle to I of the Mourning or Stand Inside Your Love. When you really listen you will find that Machina's failings are primarily in the way it was carried out while the failings of Zeitgeist begin in the songwriting.

Ultimately making Machina the superior album and Zeitgeist the easier listen.
QFT. :banging:
You saved me some typing, because I agree completely with this insight.

In addition, I've often thought that whereas the pre-Adore Pumpkins had material which sounded better in the studio than in their live renditions, from Adore onward that trend reversed and all the new material sounded much better in the live context than it ever did on the album.

I can't say I'm not excited for the single in september (ZOMG!!!!) because I feel like Bill has learned a lot about what's going on since the comeback (I'll disregard AG). I'm just hoping they fly solo for the next ventures and stay the fuck away from RTB because everything he touched on ZG is everything I hated about it.

i think zeitgeist seems even worse due to the fact that a long of the songs that aren't on the album but which came out at around the same time are just heaps better

gossamer
stellar
zeitgeist
superchrist
residency stuff

that's an album worthy of the pumpkins name

That's what drives me crazy about this shit. Billy has the damned material but refuses to use it in a productive way!

That's what drives me crazy about this shit. Billy has the damned material but refuses to use it in a productive way!

Well said. All of these people dont think he's capable of producing good shit anymore but he has numerous times this time around - he just hasnt used it appropriately. That being said, I do believe a lot of why that is is because the stuff that isnt on the album, aka the stuff we, the fans from wayback, like, isnt the stuff that the iTunes generation is into. Billy focused way too much on getting the teens to click the "Buy Song" button instead of delivering the album that we could have all loved. It was possible, it could have happened. It just so happened that the rainbow of Zeitgeists took precedence over the quality of songs pressed to the disc.


The album could have been so much better. It deserves a revisit by fans as I believe the "album" should be judged by the "era" and not just by what's on the shiny disc.

The era overall is much more amazing than the album. The live shows are spectacular, Stellar and Gossamer are better than the entirety of ZG, and Superchrist was a step in the right direction, IMO. So who knows. We'll see in september.

I agree with you on SIYL, but Machina has a sort of bouyancy that makes it fun to listen to. I don't see it as hard at all. The lyrics are a band, literally, breaking up, but they're tragically beautiful as Billy used to do so well.

You say, "These songs, while suffering from some of the failures of Machina, are good tracks regardless and manage to drown out the missteps present on the album." So what are the missteps?

1 - TTT
2 - HMM
3 - BSBT (would have been awesome to put "heavy" version, but that's beside the point)
4 - Imploding Voice (? I, for one, love the song)
5 - Crying Tree

So 5 songs out of 15 of the original release version make it hard to listen to? I don't buy it. Plus, the Japanese version is even better with Speed Kills and BSBT as the closer (that way you don't have to skip it).

You forgot to mention other songs that make it very easy on the ears... Age of Innocence, This Time, and The Sacred & Profane are better than anything off Zeitgeist.


No no no no no, by missteps I did not mean the weaker songs on the album. I meant the weaker aspects of the record as a whole. The concept was weak to begin with. Corgan can't do Bowie. The production is pretty ridiculous. Everything is so loud and fuzzy but at the same time it has that thinness I have come to expect from Guitar Center-shopping heavy metal bands. The lyrics also went off on this weird tangent on Machina. Pre-Machina lyrics were all introspective and deeply poignant. Machina introduced all this universal existential stuff that really changed the feel of the band. Having songs about the band itself, about the concept, about humanity, about a collective consciousness... this all was totally new from the band. And it was a misstep. It wasn't as good as their previous work. These are the kinds of things I mean by misstep, not individual songs.

Edit: And as good a song as Age of Innocence is, it doesn't have the easy listening smoothed out nonsense Pomp and Circumstances does. This is what I mean. Machina has better songs, Zeitgeist is easier to listen to.

Zeitgeist is missing all of the heart and soul and emotion that the other records bled.

basically

is that list in some sort of order?

good
|
V
bad

I don't like the songs as much as others, but I don't like the songs any less.


please elaborate..

There is no energy in this album. Even Jimmy sounds like he is asleep.

:rofl: :Stupid:

please elaborate..

i guess its worded weird :think:

I don't enjoy my favorite songs from zeitgeist as much as I do my favorite songs from other pumpkins albums

I don't dislike my least favorite songs on zeitgeist anymore than my least favorite songs from the other albums


in other words it's mediocre

i try to avoid specifics and declarations but i think its a terrible album. i come back to gish/pisces for easy listening grunge/psychodelia. sd and mcis are a given. adore is good for a rainy day. machina is good when you are up for a challenge, working through a mediocre album for some awesome standouts. msots is great when youre in a good mood. the only time i come back to zeitgeist is when i read threads like this asking myself, is it really that terrible/unremarkable? yes it really is. united states is on my pre-run warmup playlist and thats all the plays this album gets

yea i posted the broken record but hey, this board is having a real discussion for once

redbreegull, I still think the majority of SP fans are going to listen to Machina and find it more enjoyable than listening to Zeitgeist. To me that's easy.

without having read much of this thread, Zeitgeist is the best album Billy has made since Adore. Now, I'm not saying that Z is in the same league as Adore, I'm just saying it's the best album he's made since then. And American Gothic has gotten my hopes up for the future.

And in regards to Billy not "evolving" with Zeitgeist? He's done something that 99% of bands that reunite never do. He opted to not do a greatest hits tour, cash in on old glories, and call it a day. Instead, he released an albums worth of new music, not counting residencies songs and AG, and promoted those songs on tour as if the band never broke up/ i.e. the tour setlists comprised of most of the tracks from Zeit with some choice back-catalogue material.

without having read much of this thread, Zeitgeist is the best album Billy has made since Adore.

:banging:

I like Zeitgeist a year later.

But not as much as any other Pumpkins album.


What could have made this album awesome is if Billy would have replaced all of the "layers and layers of 100's of Billy's voices" (like in Bleeding the Orchid and Rose March) with well-written orchestral parts (or some neat sounding instrument that fit the theme of the album).

That would have automatically made songs like Bleeding the Orchid completely fucking rock, to me. But instead I have to listen to Billy's impression of violins, which is creative, but not as nice to listen to.

Other than that, it's good.

to me zeitgeist is just another pumpkins album. each album has been different than the ones before it and zeitgeist continues that trend. this is an album of pop songs. they picked the right producer for the job (the king of pop rock songs) and they executed it brilliantly. I don't like the songs as much as others, but I don't like the songs any less.

an album released by the smashing pumpkins in 2007 with the name 'zeitgeist' could only contain pop songs, especially following billy comments about current trends in music, record labels, and bands

This is my favourite post re: Zeitgeist ever! That's pretty much how I feel about the album. It's the Pumpkins, but it's a different Pumpkins to before (how could anybody be stupid enough to expect any different?).

And those people saying the album lacks something that all the other albums have need to go and listen to that amateurish piece of boring crap that is the Pumpkins's first album before saying anything negative about any of Billy's recent music. Nobody in their right mind would consider Gish a better album than Zeitgeist if they listened to them side by side with an objective (i.e. not anti-anything post Adore) point of view.

nothing on zg is half as good as ANY song on machina, and nearly all the songs on m2. the same could almost be said for MSOTS and TFE, which seem like pretty good records now. AG seems like songs that an older verison of bill wouldn't have let see the light of day, probably even in bootleg form

redbreegull, I still think the majority of SP fans are going to listen to Machina and find it more enjoyable than listening to Zeitgeist. To me that's easy.

Nevermind, you are obviously not getting it.


And those people saying the album lacks something that all the other albums have need to go and listen to that amateurish piece of boring crap that is the Pumpkins's first album before saying anything negative about any of Billy's recent music. Nobody in their right mind would consider Gish a better album than Zeitgeist if they listened to them side by side with an objective (i.e. not anti-anything post Adore) point of view.

Are you high? There is not one song on Zeitgeist that is in the league of Gish material.

And those people saying the album lacks something that all the other albums have need to go and listen to that amateurish piece of boring crap that is the Pumpkins's first album before saying anything negative about any of Billy's recent music. Nobody in their right mind would consider Gish a better album than Zeitgeist if they listened to them side by side with an objective (i.e. not anti-anything post Adore) point of view.


this post really infuriated me.

greedo, you really missed something on gish. believe me, i got into the pumpkins not too long before zeitgeist came out, so theres no nostalgia telling me gish is better. gish is a masterpiece in comparison.

gish is amazing. Z is not so much.

Wow one year later ...... I haven't come round these parts since the shine wore off my new Zeitgeist. Honesstly I have not listened to this album for at least 9 months. I was pretty much into anything Corgan did. I liked Machina 1& 2. Enjoyed a lot of Zwan ( so much unreleased material that was good) and even thought most of TFE was Decent.

I am not big on political stuff in the first place and I really felt Corgan was not playing to his strength by tackling these issues. This album has my least favorite production of all time and I usually could care less about that kind of thing. That being said some of these songs work much better in a live setting: Bleeding the Orchid, Starz, United States,God and Country( acoustic).There are some likeable songs to come out of this Bring the Light, Stellar,and Tarantula seemed to hit the spot.

One thing I have been pleased with are the live performances I have viewed and heard. They have yet to play in NYC so I have not seen them. ( if they did oops).
Gossamer is a worthy addition to the Pumpkins catalog along with a few others that popped up on tour. It's great to see Billy and jimmy Play so well and I liked the new members very much.

I wonder if they will keep the Genesis mentality and only use the new guys for tours and lock themselves in the studio to create by themselves. I can see arguments both for and against doing this.

The latest thing i heard was Superchrist which I picked up by luck when wandering around Guitar Center checking out some stuff. It was good not great.
The drum intro is kinda dumb.

don't insult the gong!

don't insult the gong!

Superchrist is identical to United States, ...just in radio form... I can barely tell the difference.

And those people saying the album lacks something that all the other albums have need to go and listen to that amateurish piece of boring crap that is the Pumpkins's first album before saying anything negative about any of Billy's recent music. Nobody in their right mind would consider Gish a better album than Zeitgeist if they listened to them side by side with an objective (i.e. not anti-anything post Adore) point of view.

I did not hear Gish for the first time until 2005, so I don't have nostalgia "holding me back." I don't know how you could not find SOME good out of that album, but to each their own.

man this greedo really takes the cake, huh

i was excited for this record at first, but the excitement wore off quickly. i haven't listened to it since last september.. when machina came out i was listening to that nearly everyday for a year straight.

also, it seems the pumpkins themselves grew to loose interest as the tour went on, including less songs from the new album. in tours past, about 80% of the show would be material from the new record.

pomp and circumstances, then and now, remains one of the worst songs the pumpkins have ever put their name on.. corny as shit.

come on lets go is also not a grower. had starz and FG&C been recorded the way they were played live, the record would have been a bit nicer to listen to.

also, throw out half the record and throw on gossamer, signal to noise, zeitgiest, stellar, ma belle, superchrist and you've got a much better record.

BTL and US are two of the best songs on the record. neverlost isn't too shabby either, but gets boring.

:erm: "Don't worry, in 2 years an even worse pumpkins album will come out!", ...

... Are you criticizing my grammar...?

well, Billy said recently they want to make another Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie, so hopefully we'll get something a little different.

Is that the first time he's ever discussed trying to make something like his previous albums?

z better than gish, lol. that's the funniest thing i've heard all year. :rofl:

i enjoy a lot of it more than gish :X


its more diverse

clearly you are insane

clearly

clearly because I havent slept in nearly 3 days- literally. i havent slept a wink.

motherfucking crazy

bwee booo

i wish i'd known you this well when we were at the dallas show, i woulda hung out in line with you and john a lot more. you crazy fool you.

ha, i would have hung out with you guys more. the guy i drove from austin I had only met one other time- at the Austin show. He paid for gas so I drove... he wasnt the best company

if you had to tag onto the end of the thread title the fact that isn't a parody, you should already have a pretty clear vision of how well zeitgeist is faring.

there's always next time guitaro.

if you had to tag onto the end of the thread title the fact that isn't a parody, you should already have a pretty clear vision of how well zeitgeist is faring.

good point.

Nevermind, you are obviously not getting it.

shutup

From release to now, I still think Come on let's go is a fantastic song...

I don't see how Bleed the Light is so loved while COLG is so despised. The repeated light, light, light bits sound sort of weak and lame whereas the guitar line before the last quiet bit in COLG is just fucking awesome. If he sneered more vocally at that point it would be perfect.

Neverlost is also better than it's often regarded. And ma belle is sweet.

Actually I like the entire album, although don't love most of it, and can't conjure the jilted rage many people seem to think a sane brain would possess on first listen.

I also think it would be foolish to write Corgan off at this point, Zeitgeist is at least a decent album and at times surprises me with its quality. As it seems he was aiming for a decent, not-completely-off-the-wall rock album, I don't think he's particularly failed.

For the future though, make a Kyuss album Billy: heavy, trippy, maybe alienating to many fans, and ******* spacey as fuck soft numbers too. I will applaud and maybe purchase a copy. I'm thinking Scorched Earth in album form but heavier and trippier (and softer). Tear the fabric of space and time apart, that's what your guitar solos are good for. And you'll need those laser guitars too.

this past week i heard Bring the Light on the radio, a college station, twice. It was really nice to hear it on the radio. I like the song very much.

I think there will be great things to come from the band, if they will it. But, it has to come from a place of deep truth. That's where the most beautiful art comes from.

I don't mind Zeitgeist... the songs themselves aren't poor so much as the production, (although the lyrics/vocals/entire political concept are also flawed). Which really comes out when you see or listen to the songs live.
I have hope for the future though, Superchrist was a step in the right direction in terms of production. Although that may be due to the almost complete lack of vocals with which he could potentially ruin what is otherwise a decent song.

Superchrist
7 Shades of Black
Bleeding the Orchid
Ma Belle
Tarantula
Starz
Stellar
Neverlost
Bring the Light
Death from Above
For God and Country
Zeitgeist

Or something along those lines might have been a far better album.

God, what the fuck. Corgan's voice never ever ever, not even once bothered me until this album.

I agree! I liked Corgan's voice so much more when he "couldn't sing". Voice lessons ruined him.

I agree! I liked Corgan's voice so much more when he "couldn't sing". Voice lessons ruined him.
you mean the lack of chorus, phasing, and fuzz killed his voice. for once we hear what he sounds like and not a processed version of it

you mean the lack of chorus, phasing, and fuzz killed his voice. for once we hear what he sounds like and not a processed version of it

Even live stuff during MCIS/Siamese Dream era sounds better then this, and yes I'm aware sometimes his voice would break alot during shows, but on better nights his voice was sooo good. Now he sounds like he's trying to make a breathy/vibrato sound from down in his belly and its terrible.

you mean the lack of chorus, phasing, and fuzz killed his voice. for once we hear what he sounds like and not a processed version of it

The thing is that you can't really tell what the hell his voice sounds like on Zeitgeist because of the production fuckery. However I know what you mean. It sounds like the voice he uses on acoustic songs and soft stuff live. And here it is being inserted into Doomsday Clock. It just doesn't work.

I've recently begun to understand this album as "mercurial" - it is a mercurial smashing pumpkins album. Even though I bought it twice, once with the special edition booklet and once with the best buy dvd, I've always thought of this album in its digital form. That was the first form I heard it in, in the leaked digital version. I've always loved it. But I didn't like the tracklist. The digital format let's me retrack the album, over and over, which I do about once a month, to suit either my mood or just how I happen to feel the songs best flow from one to another. Hence its mercurial feel, its constantly shifting energy. I love it. All the tracks are good enough to have their place somewhere in there.

So here's its latest incarnation, which I coincidentally thought up only a day or two ago:

Mercurial Zeitgeist

United States
(Come On) Let's Go!
7 Shades Of Black
Tarantula
Doomsday Clock
For God And Country
Death From Above
Superchrist
Neverlost
Bleeding The Orchid
Ma Belle
Starz
Stellar
Bring The Light
That's The Way (My Love Is)
Pomp And Circumstances
Zeitgeist

Now he sounds like he's trying to make a breathy/vibrato sound from down in his belly and its terrible.

Now I'm curious - where do you think he's doing this? Live or on the album?

What if the album was meant to test us? As troo fans?

I've recently begun to understand this album as "mercurial" - it is a mercurial smashing pumpkins album. Even though I bought it twice, once with the special edition booklet and once with the best buy dvd, I've always thought of this album in its digital form. That was the first form I heard it in, in the leaked digital version. I've always loved it. But I didn't like the tracklist. The digital format let's me retrack the album, over and over, which I do about once a month, to suit either my mood or just how I happen to feel the songs best flow from one to another. Hence its mercurial feel, its constantly shifting energy. I love it. All the tracks are good enough to have their place somewhere in there.

So here's its latest incarnation, which I coincidentally thought up only a day or two ago:

Mercurial Zeitgeist

United States
(Come On) Let's Go!
7 Shades Of Black
Tarantula
Doomsday Clock
For God And Country
Death From Above
Superchrist
Neverlost
Bleeding The Orchid
Ma Belle
Starz
Stellar
Bring The Light
That's The Way (My Love Is)
Pomp And Circumstances
Zeitgeist



I like that tracklist.

I think the biggest problem with Zeitgeist is the tracklist. Firstly, why is Stellar not on the album? And though many hate it, I think Death From Above should have been included as well. The album seems to sag after Starz for me. US goes on too long without the epic feel of previous Pumpkins epics, and the last two tracks sound out of place, like they're tacked on (though I like them both, especially For God and Country).

Now I'm curious - where do you think he's doing this? Live or on the album?

Both, ... Listen to singing on United States (textbook example of this type of singing)

- Forced shitty sounding vibrato
- hint of 'breathy' sound that was there before (i.e. sighing sound)
- awful.

What if the album was meant to test us? As troo fans?

Well then, a lot of those fans failed. Reading the reactions of most here on this board since the band's been back, I get the sense that Zeitgeist (along with the solo/Zwan material during the SP hiatus) has made a lot of the tr00, longtime fans give up hope of anything new comin' from Billy and the current SP entity being any good. I sense that some, especially those that don't like anything BC's done since the breakup of 2000, just don't give a damn about anything new comin' from Billy and SP, and they just hang around here 'cause they're interested to hear if, when the band's on tour, they're playin' any old rarities.

Both, ... Listen to singing on United States (textbook example of this type of singing)

- Forced shitty sounding vibrato
- hint of 'breathy' sound that was there before (i.e. sighing sound)
- awful.

see also ANY LIVE VERSION OF TODAY OR ANY OTHER OLD SONG REALLY FOR FUCKS SAKE HE SOUNDS AWFUL

You know something bizarre has happened - or - has already occurred long ago, but I just noticed it: I, like many of you have come to a point where given my current predisposition concerning the Zeitgeist album, am unable to see, or, hear the other side. I mean, I like it so much, and have liked it so much for so long, that I can't seem to hear the negative qualities "fluxequalsrad" is talking about for instance. Well, I'm sure most of you have quite the opposite, yet, similar condition; where you hate it so much that you just can't hear the good qualities. ...cest la vi.

This is hard to say. If we're talking about the Zeitgeist album proper, then although I don't think there's any unbearaborrible songs, the album itself does seem like it's made for the ipod shuffle era.

If we take out a few of the clunker tracks (US, Neverlost, FG&C, COLG) and throw in Rose March, Gossamer, Ma Belle, Stellar, Superchrist and the title track. then I think it's up there with Machina and Pisces....

Agreed. When I think of this album, I tend to ******* all the B sides and the Residency tracks and, in my mind, the album is fantastic. The thing I've noticed, besides that this website completely loathes this album, is that I've never seen so much love for Machina until recently! I've never backed down from my statement that Machina is a great album, and now Zeitgeist has catapulted Machina into a higher echelon of acceptance among the fans. I find this hillariously ironic, because 2 years ago Machina was constantly criticized on this site.

Anyway, I can't say it enough, I listen to Zeitgeist nearly every other day and I think it is tremendous, with a couple of exceptions like Come One Lets Go and Pomp, but overall I like it as much as any other album from the SP's. To me, they're all top notch in their own way.

Another thing I've noticed is that Netphoria is absolutely programmed to hate Zeitgeist, and the fact that this album was doomed from the get go on this message board is something I find to be a curious dynamic, but considering the nature of NetP I guess it's not so hard to believe after all. Either way, after reading all the negativity about Zeitgeist, it still does not change my mind and I guess I will continue to be the only soul on Earth that listens to and enjoys the record.

You know something bizarre has happened - or - has already occurred long ago, but I just noticed it: I, like many of you have come to a point where given my current predisposition concerning the Zeitgeist album, am unable to see, or, hear the other side. I mean, I like it so much, and have liked it so much for so long, that I can't seem to hear the negative qualities "fluxequalsrad" is talking about for instance. Well, I'm sure most of you have quite the opposite, yet, similar condition; where you hate it so much that you just can't hear the good qualities. ...cest la vi.

you gotta be harsh on band's melodies. SP used to be one of the greats.

you gotta be harsh on band's melodies. SP used to be one of the greats.

True. That's a legitimate argument, and I've heard it before concerning other bands - The New Pornographers for instance, people kept saying that of the new album when it came out, that it just didn't have the same melodies or hooks. But, in their case, and with Zeitgeist, I still think the songs as a whole are still great. ...it does seem rushed though, that's probably what subdued the melodies. If you don't start with a good melody, which, it seems they didn't as they started with "let's make another rock album to please the fans" instead, then it takes a lot of time for strong melodies like the ones in Siamese Dream to develop.

see also ANY LIVE VERSION OF TODAY OR ANY OTHER OLD SONG REALLY FOR FUCKS SAKE HE SOUNDS AWFUL

His live voice is miles ahead of his old live voice. I listened to some old boots and its almost unlistenable because of his voice. Album voice on the other hand sounds weak at times but mostly because of the production I believe.

it's on par with machina. there are amazing sections and craptastic sections

His live voice is miles ahead of his old live voice. I listened to some old boots and its almost unlistenable because of his voice. Album voice on the other hand sounds weak at times but mostly because of the production I believe.

I agree with this. The problem with Doomsday Clock is that you could be standing next to him in the studio as he sings the track with headphones on.

It sounds like the voice someone would use if you came up to him and said (i.e. somewhere in public), can you sing the melody of any of your new stuff?

It sounds like the voice someone would use if you came up to him and said (i.e. somewhere in public), can you sing the melody of any of your new stuff?

That just about hits the nail on the head.

but overall I like it as much as any other album from the SP's.

what?!

I agree with this. The problem with Doomsday Clock is that you could be standing next to him in the studio as he sings the track with headphones on.

It sounds like the voice someone would use if you came up to him and said (i.e. somewhere in public), can you sing the melody of any of your new stuff?

You saved me a lot of typing. I agree 100%. I think the first three tracks of the album have vocals that sound like Billy is bored out of his mind. As a matter of fact, the two tracks that this board seem to protest, "For God and Country" and "Pomp and Circumstances" have the best vocals of the album.

I think the MBC actually works, more or less, on Bleeding the Orchid, although it still sounds too polished. If he played it like Saturnine off Machina 2 it would be amazing.

But as much as I like Zeitgeist (and I like it better than the 2 Machinas), songs like Doomsday Clock and 7 Shades could have been great MCIS-era songs if the singing was better. It doesn't ruin the album for me, but it will never be a classic album.

The material isn't shitty enough yet for me to just hope they never come back. I'm still enjoying having new Pumpkins to listen to, and I hope that never changes.

Another thing I've noticed is that Netphoria is absolutely programmed to hate Zeitgeist, and the fact that this album was doomed from the get go on this message board is something I find to be a curious dynamic, but considering the nature of NetP I guess it's not so hard to believe after all.
A lot of us here have invested a lot of time and passion (and possibly money) into SP over the years, and after such a long time in waiting did not want to be disappointed by the new material. I think a lot of us here sincerely wanted to like the new album, and--aside from a certain group who basically decried the entire concept of the reformed band--were certainly not against the album from its inception. In fact, right after the tracks first leaked, I recall that most people were swept up in this sort of minor orgasm about it. That was until it had a bit more time to sink in and we started to turn on our critical listening faculties. Do you think, after waiting that long, that it actually pleases me that I don't like it all that much?

A lot of us here have invested a lot of time and passion (and possibly money) into SP over the years, and after such a long time in waiting did not want to be disappointed by the new material. I think a lot of us here sincerely wanted to like the new album, and--aside from a certain group who basically decried the entire concept of the reformed band--were certainly not against the album from its inception. In fact, right after the tracks first leaked, I recall that most people were swept up in this sort of minor orgasm about it. That was until it had a bit more time to sink in and we started to turn on our critical listening faculties. Do you think, after waiting that long, that it actually pleases me that I don't like it all that much?

I think that this is right. I had extremely high hopes on the morning of July 10th, 2007 and at first I really liked it. But then after two or three listens I had to come to terms with the fact that it is a mediocre record. It is not horrible or unlistenable, but I cannot help but hold it up to the caliber of SP's past work, and in that arena it is largely a failure. Is it still a better than average rock record? Eh, yeah, it is. But it's not Pumpkins good.

Zeitgeist would be quite good if it were 11 songs. Remove Pomp, FG&C and add Stellar as the final track. It would be solid. Starz is ok, but would make a better b-side... or they could have recorded it better.

i love it how everyone's solution to "fix" zeitgeist is to substitute in/out various tracks and b-sides. it's the same type of of thinking along the lines of "if they release bring the light as a single, they'll be the most popular band in the world again"

Zeitgeist would be quite good if it were 11 songs. Remove Pomp, FG&C and add Stellar as the final track. It would be solid. Starz is ok, but would make a better b-side... or they could have recorded it better.

fuck that. pomp is my favorite song on the damn album.

people and their opinions. :rolleyes:

it took me a while to "get" Pomp, but now I like it. I get this bizarre "Glynis" feel when I listen to it.

yeah, honestly it really is my favorite. of the whole lot, it's the one song that doesn't sound like it's trying to be something for the sake of saying "we're a rock band", "we're the pumpkins, listen to this loud guitar and maniacal drumbeat, can't you tell it's us?", or "look, this song has keyboards, remember when we switched to keyboards and everyone loved it?". It just is what it is, it's very different and it feels honest. I can understand why a lot of people don't like it, but to me it's really the underrated gem of the album.

I think Zeitgeist would have been a shades better album had billy assembled the band first and embarked on an extensive smaller venue tour, trying the songs out before audiences of both fans and just whoever happened to be there. He could have realized what songs worked and didn't and tweaked them to fit accordingly or abandoned them all together.

should have just released it as his second solo album.

should have just released it as his second solo album.

billy or jimmy?

One year later, I rarely listen to the record. Still, it is a very good album and great things emerged from the "Zeitgeist Era" (Gossamer, Rock Am Ring, Residency songs, American Gothic,...). My vision didn't change a lot from what I thought after the album was out : I really love the stunning guitar/drum work on Zeitgeist. Some songs are cool and others really suck (DFA, 7 Shades Of Black,...). The cover is awful. The lyrics are terrible too, plus the vocal mix is sometimes really strange, especially For God and Country who really sounded nice live/acoustic. Even if some "magic" is gone, I believe billy/jimmy will still rock for years and years to come.

btw, what does 1fatslug think of Zeitgeist one year later ?

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I think Zeitgeist would have been a shades better album had billy assembled the band first and embarked on an extensive smaller venue tour, trying the songs out before audiences of both fans and just whoever happened to be there. He could have realized what songs worked and didn't and tweaked them to fit accordingly or abandoned them all together.

I'm wondering if this is why he's talked about releasing "studio versions" of songs, touring them, and then possibly going back into the studio and reworking them.

I really hope he sticks to that plan, it could work quite well.

A lot of us here have invested a lot of time and passion (and possibly money) into SP over the years, and after such a long time in waiting did not want to be disappointed by the new material. I think a lot of us here sincerely wanted to like the new album, and--aside from a certain group who basically decried the entire concept of the reformed band--were certainly not against the album from its inception. In fact, right after the tracks first leaked, I recall that most people were swept up in this sort of minor orgasm about it. That was until it had a bit more time to sink in and we started to turn on our critical listening faculties. Do you think, after waiting that long, that it actually pleases me that I don't like it all that much?

I suppose not, inasmuch as you, on an individual level, make that decision on your own, and there is no way for me to make such a judgement. However, on the whole, the group think mentality of this website and public sentiment in general has enough of an impact overall to lend me to believe that there is an innate, subconscious predisposition to criticism on Netphoria that, to the open minded individual, is easily recognized as a permeating fact of said forum.

Bottom line, just as Mellon Collie and Gish were different in their own ways, so to is Zeitgeist from Siamese Dream for example. And if I eliminate sentimentality from the equation I can honestly say the album rocks fucking ass and I love it.

This website is completely skewed to the negative, and while I think that people tended to want to see a great album, that Netphoria demon in the back of most of their minds was laying back in wait with pitchfork to skewer the fucking thing no matter what.

<3 1 phat slug!

However, on the whole, the group think mentality of this website and public sentiment in general has enough of an impact overall to lend me to believe that there is an innate, subconscious predisposition to criticism on Netphoria that, to the open minded individual, is easily recognized as a permeating fact of said forum.



uh no.

It doesn't help that the critics were itching to take a steamer on this record no matter how good or bad it was. I noticed a lot of people turned on this album after the critics had thier say while others who hadn't heard the record were surprised the album wasn't as bad as the critics said when they eventually heard it.

Personally I think Billy still writes good songs but the production lets him down every time. Some songs still shine through. Others don't. It's like taking a fat juicy steak to McDonalds and asking them to cook it for you. The AOL sessions impressed the hell out of me and made me wish Billy would take the band in the studio and record the new album live ever since. The same kind of approach would have done wonders for Zeitgeist.

It's like taking a fat juicy steak to McDonalds and asking them to cook it for you..

I think it's more the opposite, the source material is garbage and they over-produced it to bombastic territory for simple one string riffs.

So I guess it's "Taking some McNugget's to Wolf Gang Puck and asking them to prepare as best as possible"

I suppose not, inasmuch as you, on an individual level, make that decision on your own, and there is no way for me to make such a judgement. However, on the whole, the group think mentality of this website and public sentiment in general has enough of an impact overall to lend me to believe that there is an innate, subconscious predisposition to criticism on Netphoria that, to the open minded individual, is easily recognized as a permeating fact of said forum.

Bottom line, just as Mellon Collie and Gish were different in their own ways, so to is Zeitgeist from Siamese Dream for example. And if I eliminate sentimentality from the equation I can honestly say the album rocks fucking ass and I love it.

This website is completely skewed to the negative, and while I think that people tended to want to see a great album, that Netphoria demon in the back of most of their minds was laying back in wait with pitchfork to skewer the fucking thing no matter what.

As much as I agree with some of the things you said in this post, the fact remains that I did truly want to love this record. But I just don't. It's not anything over mediocre. It's not a great album. I don't hate it or wish Corgan would stop trying. I still believe that he could crank out another MCIS (or more like another Adore). But this is not it.

I think it's more the opposite, the source material is garbage and they over-produced it to bombastic territory for simple one string riffs.

So I guess it's "Taking some McNugget's to Wolf Gang Puck and asking them to prepare as best as possible"


Yeah but Wolfgang Puck would come up with some awesome lemon/honey/dill/butter sauce that makes you wonder why more people aren't eating sawdust-coated people meat.

(Chicken McNuggets is PEOPLE!)

Gotta say I agree with Skipgo on "Pomp and Circumstances." It is the only song on the albumthat does not sound like forced "rawked out Bolly" and it comes out very well.

As much as I agree with some of the things you said in this post, the fact remains that I did truly want to love this record. But I just don't. It's not anything over mediocre. It's not a great album. I don't hate it or wish Corgan would stop trying. I still believe that he could crank out another MCIS (or more like another Adore). But this is not it.

same for me. i really did want to love it, and general netphorian opinion has nothing to do with the fact that i just don't ever get the urge to play this album. And yes, I think he can do it again, make something that amazes us. I hope he does.

Sadly, I don't think the songs hold together as a record. It sounds strained, and just like a bunch of songs (many not very good and certainly wouldn't have been considered album worthy a decade earlier) just sorta strung together.

As examples, Neverlost and Come On Let's Go are just lame lame rehashes of stuff that Corgan has done far better with in the past.

<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2558554804_4861278d97_m.jpg" height="180" width="240" /></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjnolan/2558555512/"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3255/2558555512_ccf0e188db_m.jpg" height="180" width="240" /></a></p>


see http://hipstersunited.com/blog/archives/2008/06/zeitgeist-the-dark-blue-box-editions.html



anyways i really like the album. i enjoy it a lot more now than i have ever. good album. as solid as machina

Agreed. I don't understand why this album got so much heat. I thinks it's a very solid piece of music, just like the majority of the rest of Billy's material. Billy gets nothing but crap for putting out good music...

Agreed. I don't understand why this album got so much heat. I thinks it's a very solid piece of music, just like the majority of the rest of Billy's material. Billy gets nothing but crap for putting out good music...

better than being praised for putting out crap

tfe does not equal shoegaze

It's not straight shoegaze. It's electronica, goth, shoegaze, pop kinda meshed together.

Anyway, what do I think, one year later? I dunno. For the first time since I've been a fan (1996) I am getting worried about the direction that this band is going in. I am the type of fan that is always more eager to defend them rather than just letting people say whatever. In other words, I'm not just some stereotypical Netphorian SP hater that's basically been this way since the mid-90's.

My two main concerns:

-The importance of religion in their music. I hate to sound like a secular troll, but all of this Jesus stuff and misc. religious undertones is getting really unbearable, and for the first time as a SP fan there is an aspect to their music that is starting to turn me off. I'd really like to see this get toned down. True, SP always had religious or perhaps just spiritual undertones, but they weren't very frequent. Now it's becoming a huge part of the music. This band is only a couple steps away from being potentially labeled as christian rock. I'm not kidding. They don't have much further to go.

Not to mention, Billy in an interview saying the concerts help bring people closer to god or whatever... are you kidding me? No Billy, I, as a person with no religious beliefs went to see you guys last year because you are my all-time favorite band and I've been wanting to see a show of yours ever since I bought Mellon Collie. That is why I went. You are an amazing band, have amazing songs, put on amazing shows, and that is why I went. God had nothing to do with it. And I am sure the 99% of fans that were also there would be inclined to agree with me. SP is not a religious band, Billy. Stop this shit. I'm not saying you have to go back to being really aggressive and at times violent, but there's no need for this behavior.

-Billy's hit/miss production antics. Ever since Machina, his studio prowess has been diminished significantly. Machina 1 had a really weird production. Machina 2 was great because Billy didn't obsess over it, knowing it wasn't going to be a commercial product most likely. Zwan and its "everything but the kitchen sink" approach was a faux representation of old records that gave us nothing but clipping, and didn't quite remind us of the way albums used to be made. TheFutureEmbrace is the cleanest thing production-wise that Billy's done since Adore. Zeitgeist is "everything but the kitchen sink" part II, this time with a near complete lack of dynamics. American Gothic sounds pretty clean.

I really hope some record execs are basically forcing him to have the records produced and/or mastered this way (just like I really hope they forced him to have a billion different versions of Zeitgeist). Otherwise, what the hell? Gish, Siamese, MCIS, Adore, and all the stuff in between for the most part had absolutely brilliant production values. Even if they didn't, they were still good enough. I realize Billy had Butch Vig and Flood helping, but at the same time, Billy was very much in control of the environment, and I have no doubt his next album could have the same clean kind of production heard in Siamese or Adore if he wanted to. What makes him beat his incredible songs into the ground with these hit or miss production values is baffling to say the least. He knows better. Everyone knows he knows better. So why does he produce albums like this?

Production was far better on American Gothic and Superchrist.

And don't say Rose March, since that was a Zeitgeist recording session with RTB.

Gotta say I agree with Skipgo on "Pomp and Circumstances." It is the only song on the albumthat does not sound like forced "rawked out Bolly" and it comes out very well.

I could deal with an album of songs with the honesty of that song. That having been said, I think Billy writes a LOT of great songs that get ruined by constantly trying to do something completely original with the production.

Case In Point? When I first heard That's the Way it was a bootleg of the Berlin acoustic show. Love that version. Love love love that version. Amazing song. Corgan's take? It reminded him too much of 33, so he messed with it until it sounded different. *sighhh* K, I still like the song, but it has such a sweetness that you sucked the life out of, Billy. Another example? For God and Country. As per Billy, it was a matter of RTB taking the reigns and coming up with his own creation, and Billy said "well... I'm not satisfied that we put out the right version of that song" and I AGREE with him. I like the production on it, but had he stripped it down and just done some good emotional vocals over a mostly acoustic rendering, it would be a lot better.

Another? Crying Tree of Mercury. What is a nice visceral, heartfelt sad song on a piano turned into everybody's least favorite song on everybody's least favorite sp album. Good job on that one.

For further examples, see everything Zwan released (I thought Honestly was one of the absolutely greatest pop songs BC ever produced, btw) with a few notable exceptions-- I'm mostly referring to the djali zwan songs and the spun era songs/writing period that produced a lot of unheralded magic. BC is master of the tragic hero.. he has the biggest Icarus complex-- I just wish he would get laid so to speak and go back to just putting things out without letting his OCD take over and ruin everything. I miss the days when it was his OCD that was responsible for the GOOD things he did (the obsessive recording sessions for SD)

Okay didn't mean to say that much, but there it is.

Oh, one more complaint about Zeitgeist and why it is inferior to Machina. Listen to I of the Mourning from the part where the distorted guitar comes in to the end of the song. Turn it up. Listen to how intense that is. Give me one moment on Zeitgeist that has that sort of instrumental and emotional intensity.

Eh. It's OK. If it was MCIS it would've been more prominent, or less covered up.

I would value your opinion if you weren't such a lousy troll.

Enjoy the ignore list.

OOOOHHH!!! The Ignore list! OH NOES!! MY NETPHORIA REPUTAITON IS RUHENED!!

Like that's gonna kill me like your slow ass heart. Enjoy getting diabetes you fat fuck.

Do yourself a favor and get off the interwebs for an hour or two a day and go work off that fat you Family Guy looking fat fuck.

I actually thought zeitgeist was better than MCIS.

ignore list! blomynose!

The best thing you can come up with is weight insults. Pretty weak discojon. You'd better do more research next time.

I actually thought zeitgeist was better than MCIS.

what the hell

Oh, one more complaint about Zeitgeist and why it is inferior to Machina. Listen to I of the Mourning from the part where the distorted guitar comes in to the end of the song. Turn it up. Listen to how intense that is. Give me one moment on Zeitgeist that has that sort of instrumental and emotional intensity.

the leads on Bleeding the Orchid.

One year later, I rarely listen to the record. Still, it is a very good album and great things emerged from the "Zeitgeist Era" (Gossamer, Rock Am Ring, Residency songs, American Gothic,...). My vision didn't change a lot from what I thought after the album was out : I really love the stunning guitar/drum work on Zeitgeist. Some songs are cool and others really suck (DFA, 7 Shades Of Black,...). The cover is awful. The lyrics are terrible too, plus the vocal mix is sometimes really strange, especially For God and Country who really sounded nice live/acoustic. Even if some "magic" is gone, I believe billy/jimmy will still rock for years and years to come.

btw, what does 1fatslug think of Zeitgeist one year later ?

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hahaha i remember those

the leads on Bleeding the Orchid.

Bullshit. Nowhere close.

Oh, one more complaint about Zeitgeist and why it is inferior to Machina. Listen to I of the Mourning from the part where the distorted guitar comes in to the end of the song. Turn it up. Listen to how intense that is. Give me one moment on Zeitgeist that has that sort of instrumental and emotional intensity.

That's the Way guitar solo, Ma Belle when the distorted guitar kicks in, Jimmy's drum solo in Starz.

That's the Way guitar solo, Ma Belle when the distorted guitar kicks in, Jimmy's drum solo in Starz.

You guys must be listening to a better produced version of Zeitgeist than I am. The That's the Way solo is one of my favorite moments on Zeitgeist, but it comes nowhere near the intensity of the segment of I of the Mourning I point out.

You guys must be listening to a better produced version of Zeitgeist than I am. The That's the Way solo is one of my favorite moments on Zeitgeist, but it comes nowhere near the intensity of the segment of I of the Mourning I point out.

Not sure why the Tarantula solo is not given more love around here. Billy truly gives us a classic rock throwback solo for the ages in that one, and no one even bats an eye.

you think theres a groupthink mentality here.

that is stupid as fuck.

Lol, really? You must be kidding. It's as obvious as anything I've ever witnessed. Why do you think outside SP fans call this website Hatephoria? And hell, that was before the album came out and, lo and behold, Netphorians hated it!! Hands down!! I bet 98% of the people that responded to that thread had something bad to say about it. This website is just a bunch of posers who think they're smarter than Billy and want to analyze and dissect every fucking move he makes and act like they know how to do it better, while at the same time spending a decent portion of their existences posting on a website dedicated to his work. See any irony here?

:rofl:

Not sure why the Tarantula solo is not given more love around here. Billy truly gives us a classic rock throwback solo for the ages in that one, and no one even bats an eye.

It's pretty cool. I actually think Tarantula is one of the best things on Zeitgeist. I always overlook it because it was the single, but really I like it more than everything but like 2 other songs from the whole era. When I heard Tarantula I got this vision of a crazy dynamic guitar solo covered album of hard hitting machine gun rhythm rock, but instead we got the million b0lly choir. Tarantula doesn't really fit with the rest of the songs on Zeitgeist anyway.

actually, I agree both that Tarantula is a stand-out track and that it is unlike any other song on Zeitgeist.

starz and tarantula are the big winners for me
love those songs

Starz is an awesome song, but way better live.

Production was far better on American Gothic and Superchrist.

And don't say Rose March, since that was a Zeitgeist recording session with RTB.

actually Again Again Again is the track for which RTB is credited.

actually Again Again Again is the track for which RTB is credited.

Yeah, but Billy and Jimmy have both stated that Baker still helped out on a lot of tracks that he did not technically receive credits for. Case in point it has been mentiond various times that Baker worked on Tarantula and For God & Country. So even though he technically only recieved credti for Again, Again, Again, I have no doubt he was responsible for the way The Rose March ended up on the EP.

yeah probably.

Well, Zeitgeist is definitly the worst SP album/EP/B-sides/whatever... and after 1 year it stills that way for me. :/ It didnt grow up on me at all.

I cant listen to it often even... the album is a completly lack of feelling. Listen to Zeitgeist or listen to U2 is the same shit for me.

I think Billy tryied to do something with this album he simply doesnt know like: music with no emotion at all and lyrics about politic, society, world crises and happyness instead of letters about love, romanticism, melancolia and lost. But I can understand his point of doing Z different in that ways and trying to find new fans with this...

In respect of the songs of Z... well... the quite +/-10 secs in the end of Tarantula are sublime and I put them at level of MCIS... this is the only moment of Z I consider 200% Smashing Pumpkins... and It makes me have hope for the next works from SP.

My favourites songs are:
- That's The Way: nice lyrics and music
- For God and Country: the music are awsome, but the lyrics 'country, I'll fight' are a pain, It rebembers me war, USA and them patriotism :S
- Starz: omg surprisingly when I listen to Zeitgeist 2 days ago this music had grown on me... but 'We are starz' part didnt get in me already lol, I still can rebember how embraced I felt when I listen to it the first time at the Grand Rex ^

Billy just keep doing what you know to do... and dont try to invent shits in fields you cant.

Pumpkins LOVE.

surprisingly good album after I was sure the magic was gone (Machina, Zwan, tfe).
Among SP' best works along with MCIS, Adore and SD.
Actually, my third favorite SP album.
Doomsday, Tarantula, Starz, USA, BTL = BIG songs

hmm, i just heard 'ma belle' for the first time...interesting...this is almost good enough to be on msots, def. should've been on zg. better chorus than most of zg's.

Maybe Bill will get back to business after this record. After all, he said in Durchdienacht mit Billy Corgan that he wanted to prove that (Siamese and MCIS) weren't flukes, and they were in fact something that he came up with not by accident... and he wanted to put together a band this time around that didn't necessarily just rehash the SD/MCIS sound. So I don't think we'll get another Siamese or MCIS, Adore or Machina. I think he has no intention (according to interview material at least) of recording new Pumpkins that sounds like old Pumpkins.

At least he's doing era shows (or so he says.)

he's been saying that shit ever since those records came out. omg, heaven forbid anything ever sounds like siamese dream ever again. what ever will become of billy's integrity? furthermore, it's bs, ZG was for the most part bad MCIS wannabe music. might as well try SD/PI next, it'd probably turn out better.

what ever will become of billy's integrity?

what happened to chad kroegers integrity?

Musicians simply cannot win. If new material sounds similiar to the old then they are unoriginal, uncreative and just copying the formula of past success. If new material sounds different then they are criticizied for not staying true to their roots. You can't have it both ways.

Does Siamese Dream sound the same as Gish?
Does Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness sound the same as Siamese Dream?
Does Adore sound the same as Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness?
Does Machina sound the same as Adore?
Does Zeitgeist sound the same as Machina?

No.

Musicians simply cannot win. If new material sounds similiar to the old then they are unoriginal, uncreative and just copying the formula of past success. If new material sounds different then they are criticizied for not staying true to their roots. You can't have it both ways.

:banging:

Does Siamese Dream sound the same as Gish?
Does Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness sound the same as Siamese Dream?
Does Adore sound the same as Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness?
Does Machina sound the same as Adore?
Does Zeitgeist sound the same as Machina?

No.

but fortunately for us, they are all awesome in their own way. :D

Oh, one more complaint about Zeitgeist and why it is inferior to Machina. Listen to I of the Mourning from the part where the distorted guitar comes in to the end of the song. Turn it up. Listen to how intense that is. Give me one moment on Zeitgeist that has that sort of instrumental and emotional intensity.

the leads on Bleeding the Orchid.

I'll give you more than 1.

commando's right, the leads and final refrain during Bleeding the Orchid, the end of Starz, as well as a few of the break-down segments from the simple but awesome COLG, several parts in 7 shades...and the end of ma belle.

Production was far better on American Gothic and Superchrist.

And don't say Rose March, since that was a Zeitgeist recording session with RTB.

um, well...i wouldn't say it was a "zeitgeist recording session" technically...the only connection AG and SC have to Zeitgeist is that Billy considers them all a single body/era of work.

Zeitgeist, Zeitgeist b-sides, AG, and SC were all done during 4 seperate "studio sessions". Maybe one day I'll actually have the time to get the details of all this info up on spfc, if life allows.

actually Again Again Again is the track for which RTB is credited.

Yeah, but Billy and Jimmy have both stated that Baker still helped out on a lot of tracks that he did not technically receive credits for. Case in point it has been mentiond various times that Baker worked on Tarantula and For God & Country. So even though he technically only recieved credti for Again, Again, Again, I have no doubt he was responsible for the way The Rose March ended up on the EP.

yeah probably.

indeed, just as an example: the Tarantula single credits RTB for the song even though the Zeitgeist album does not.

http://www.spfreaks.com/data/images/CD's%20(Official)/EU/CD%20EU%20Tarantula%20(3tracks)d2.jpg

hmm, i just heard 'ma belle' for the first time...interesting...this is almost good enough to be on msots, def. should've been on zg. better chorus than most of zg's.

lol, no offense...but i suspect you would have said the same thing about Orchid if it was a b-side and not on the album. who knows, maybe not...just saying.

better than being praised for putting out crap

Billy doesn't put out crap! If you feel that way, then maybe you should find another band to listen to. If you are a fan, stop talking shit about him all the time.

Billy doesn't put out crap! If you feel that way, then maybe you should find another band to listen to. If you are a fan, stop talking shit about him all the time.

ugh that wasnt the point

That's weird that RTB worked on Again x 3, because to me, Rose March sounds exactly like something from the Zeitgeist sessions (down to the MBC voice work), while Again x3, Pox and Sunkissed sound like they're from the same session.

Gotta say I agree with Skipgo on "Pomp and Circumstances." It is the only song on the albumthat does not sound like forced "rawked out Bolly" and it comes out very well.

Not understanding this one, although it's obviously yet another opinion debate, but I feel the exact opposite about this one. The only thing I like about Pomp is the guitar solo at the end, and granted there's a lot to love there, but I can barely get to that part of the song because the beginning 2 1/2 minutes is so unbearable. A friend of mine says he thinks it sounds like the theme song for "The Lion King," and I can't imagine I'll ever like it.

To me, this track sounds like nothing more than a bad facsimile of some of the more undesirable tracks from TFE, particularly some of the ones on the latter half of the album that personally make me physically ill.

To make Zeitgeist the album it should have been, and is if you ******* all or most of the era songs, I put my burn CD Zeigeist mix tape in this order:

Doomsday
7 Shades
Bleeding the O
That's the Way
Tarantula
Starz
US
Neverlost
DFA
Bring The Light
Rose March
Stellar
Ma Belle
FGAC
Zeitgeist
Sunkissed
Pox

Obviously, I just eliiminated the 2 songs I hate, COLG and Pomp, and left off the Crux cover from AG, and wah lah, my perfect Zeitgeist!! I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking Neverlost could take a hike also though.

what, no love for Superchrist? :smoke:

i'm surprised you think the solo at the end of P&C is redeeming...but not the solo'ing at the end of Neverlost. :think: and what do you mean "Crux cover"?

(...) he thinks it sounds like the theme song for "The Lion King," and I can't imagine I'll ever like it. (...)

LOL Number 1 !!!

That's exactly what I feel about Z... when I listen to the whole background gay vocals on Z, I always think: Is this Celine Dion or The Lion King soundtrack ?!

p.s. well if we consider Rose March a song from Z era, yeah, I like it too mainly the live version.... but the second part of the song stills sucks hard, otherway the first part are awsome, really.

i don't get the hate for lion king.

LOL Number 1 !!!

That's exactly what I feel about Z... when I listen to the whole background gay vocals on Z, I always think: Is this Celine Dion or The Lion King soundtrack ?!

p.s. well if we consider Rose March a song from Z era, yeah, I like it too mainly the live version.... but the second part of the song stills sucks hard, otherway the first part are awsome, really.

jesus...its a common production choice from RTB. so it shouldn't have been that big of a surprise.

and it has no impact on the live performances at all....there you get the girls on backing vocals and some major improvements to the album versions you dislike so much, like what we saw with adore in 98 (all of which is much better live, too). just like you said about Rose March. so why get hung up on it?

lol, no offense...but i suspect you would have said the same thing about Orchid if it was a b-side and not on the album. who knows, maybe not...just saying.

hmm, uhh..well bto is better than ma belle, i dunno was just surprised that i kinda liked the chorus. i bitch a lot about zg, but it's just cause bc consistently writes good material that he leaves off records [zwan] and/or has good ideas that get maligned by stuff [on zg, vocal overdubs, weak choruses, crap production], i know he can do sth that would totally make me twist and shout, so i continue to care/bitch.

Musicians simply cannot win. i'll start by wholeheartedly agreeing w/ this statement

If new material sounds similiar to the old then they are unoriginal, uncreative and just copying the formula of past success. If new material sounds different then they are criticizied for not staying true to their roots. You can't have it both ways.

Does Siamese Dream sound the same as Gish?
Does Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness sound the same as Siamese Dream?
Does Adore sound the same as Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness?
Does Machina sound the same as Adore?
Does Zeitgeist sound the same as Machina?
No.
point is, it does intentionally recall previous records [mcis and machina mostly] and i think if he tried to copy sd it might come off better. then again it could be crap. sadly i think that's the one move bc won't take b/c he'd see it as the ever so obvious 'sellout/artistic defeat/blahblahblah'. bc said it himself there are only 12 notes (so it must be true). if you're going to reference yourself, do it in an interesting way. if you're going to write pop songs, come up with better hooks.

hmm, uhh..well bto is better than ma belle, i dunno was just surprised that i kinda liked the chorus. i bitch a lot about zg, but it's just cause bc consistently writes good material that he leaves off records [zwan] and/or has good ideas that get maligned by stuff [on zg, vocal overdubs, weak choruses, crap production], i know he can do sth that would totally make me twist and shout, so i continue to care/bitch.

i'll start by wholeheartedly agreeing w/ this statement


point is, it does intentionally recall previous records [mcis and machina mostly] and i think if he tried to copy sd it might come off better. then again it could be crap. sadly i think that's the one move bc won't take b/c he'd see it as the ever so obvious 'sellout/artistic defeat/blahblahblah'. bc said it himself there are only 12 notes (so it must be true). if you're going to reference yourself, do it in an interesting way. if you're going to write pop songs, come up with better hooks.

did you like machina right away? or more as time went on? or more after zeitgeist? just wondering.

billys said Z was supposed to be a "reintroduction" to the band, and it definitely has its roots in old SP material. and i think it works well as that, though arguably maybe on the heavier side (which i like personally, but i know not everyone here is THAT type of SP fan). More than just Machina and MCIS, I also hear SD in songs like COLG and MABELLE and BTO and just in general because of the tunes that have the dreamy layerd guitar i've come to love, in contrast to the DC, 7Shades and US stuff that reminds me more of MCIS and M1/M2. I also hear PI all over the place because of that Brian May guitar solo sound, the end of Neverlost, and even some Gish in billy's bass work an song structure.

basically i see it as more of a mature evolution, rather than a replication. continuing where they left off from machina, for better or for worse. which may also explain why there's so much machina material coming up, to bridge the gap between 2000 and 2007.

Although I wouldn't consider Zeitgeist a failure from a commercial stand point I also wouldn't consider it a success either. Given the current state of CD sales I think they are lucky they got as many sales as they did.

I think Billy went into this thinking he could pull off a come back similar to what Green Day did with the American Idiot album but ultimately he fell way short.

I personally don't feel any connection to the music from the album. I think it lacks substance and just has an overall feel of inferiority to their previous works, it feels to me like it was rushed and just sort of lacks energy. The album does not leave a lasting impression nor is it memorable. Other then maybe Bleeding the Orchid and United States I do not really like any of it.

Listening to the album recently just reminds me how Billy has lost his creative touch, the spark he had through SD-MCIS-Adore created almost endless music that was amazing but since then it has always felt at least for me like something was missing.

Maybe I am just old now and have grown out of the music I don't know...

Although I wouldn't consider Zeitgeist a failure from a commercial stand point I also wouldn't consider it a success either. Given the current state of CD sales I think they are lucky they got as many sales as they did.

I think Billy went into this thinking he could pull off a come back similar to what Green Day did with the American Idiot album but ultimately he fell way short.

I personally don't feel any connection to the music from the album. I think it lacks substance and just has an overall feel of inferiority to their previous works, it feels to me like it was rushed and just sort of lacks energy. The album does not leave a lasting impression nor is it memorable. Other then maybe Bleeding the Orchid and United States I do not really like any of it.

Listening to the album recently just reminds me how Billy has lost his creative touch, the spark he had through SD-MCIS-Adore created almost endless music that was amazing but since then it has always felt at least for me like something was missing.

Maybe I am just old now and have grown out of the music I don't know...

Nah dude I think you hit the nail on the head.

His playing has lost none if it's ability but his creativity and drive are what is lacking. I think that over the years he has changed a lot. He has tons of money and nothing really to worry about. In certain interviews he and jimmy really seem to give themselves a big pat on the back. They really need to rethink what the Smashing Pumpkins is all about before recording more stuff because this is just not it.

Although I think Zietgiest isn't very creative I don't think Corgan has lost his creative touch. It really wasn't that long ago that he wrote those amazing djali zwan and chicago songs and TFE even had some great songs.

Again the biggest drawback is his decidedly un-rocking singing on the rock songs. If his voice just destroyed you on those tracks then it would be a great no-frills rock record... but as it is it's a big shrug.

if his voice just destroyed you then it would just be another no-frills rock record... whatever.

Listen to I of the Mourning from the part where the distorted guitar comes in to the end of the song. Turn it up. Listen to how intense that is. Give me one moment on Zeitgeist that has that sort of instrumental and emotional intensity.

I see your point, though I must say the 1st time I heard United States, especially when it all kicks in at the beginning (0:15ish?), I had to start the song over. It just blew me away. Same with the BTL solo...man, first time that kicked in? I wasnt sure what had happened to me.

Overall, I wish the material had been released more standardly. I dont live in the UK or in the US, and so getting Superchrist or American Gothic didnt happen for me. And these days, I prefer putting a CD on than opening iTunes and "blasting" something off my computer. So...anything off of Zeitgeist isnt getting much airtime.

I easily rank this one above Gish and Machina, maybe even Adore. I do wish Billy would stop caring about # of fans or what they think and just went with what's inside him. Man.

I see your point, though I must say the 1st time I heard United States, especially when it all kicks in at the beginning (0:15ish?), I had to start the song over. It just blew me away. Same with the BTL solo...man, first time that kicked in? I wasnt sure what had happened to me.

Overall, I wish the material had been released more standardly. I dont live in the UK or in the US, and so getting Superchrist or American Gothic didnt happen for me. And these days, I prefer putting a CD on than opening iTunes and "blasting" something off my computer. So...anything off of Zeitgeist isnt getting much airtime.

I easily rank this one above Gish and Machina, maybe even Adore. I do wish Billy would stop caring about # of fans or what they think and just went with what's inside him. Man.

I can't fathom ranking this above Gish or Adore, but I know what you mean about the intensity of US and the Bring the Light solo. I think the "intensity" I am talking about comes from having lots of interesting things going on at once. The part of I of the Mourning I was speaking of has this crazy fucking drum thing going on courtesy of Mr. Chamberlin at the same time as really heavy rhythm guitar, vocals, and this searing super high end lead part (possibly James, probably Billy). All these parts are so good that they pull on your attention. Bring the Light sort of does that at points. I think the solo is actually two guitars, I'd have to listen again to be sure though.

jesus...its a common production choice from RTB. so it shouldn't have been that big of a surprise.

and it has no impact on the live performances at all....there you get the girls on backing vocals and some major improvements to the album versions you dislike so much, like what we saw with adore in 98 (all of which is much better live, too). just like you said about Rose March. so why get hung up on it?

The surprise is The Smashing Pumkins had choosen that prick gay to be the producer.

Right, that's why I prefer all the live performances of all Z songs, definitly.

Adore has better versions live and others better on the album, depends of the song and of the tour...
e.g. To Sheila and Perfect 2007/8 version >>>>> than album versions
Pistol Pete(..) album version >>>>> than any live version

... I particulary dont like much 98 Tour versions of any song...e.g. 1979 and Tonight, Tonight sucks hard on that era live :S

still sucks

A year later, I still love Zeitgeist and still think it's Billy's best since MCIS by far. I think the thing I like most about it is that it's not a chore to listen to in one sitting. There are no songs on ZG that are automatic skips for me, whereas there are more than a few on every other post-MCIS album. Sure, Adore and the Machinas had some higher highs...but those albums also had more than their fair share of moments of excruciating boredom and monotony, and that's something that I think puts ZG head and shoulders above them. Zeitgeist might not grab you by the throat all that often, but it doesn't overstay it's welcome either.

That said, I don't think anyone mistakes ZG for a "classic" Pumpkins album. And I kinda doubt that Billy's intent was to just make a "pretty good" SP record...though that's about all he did. But hey, "pretty good" is fine for now. But regardless, in my opinion, Zeitgeist represents a pretty big step up from the hit-or-miss nature of the SP albums that came before it.

When it first came out, I listened to it a few times then forgot about it. I've been on a huge pumpkins kick again lately, and I've been listening to this album as much as all the others - it has been growing on me, although I like it less than all the other pumpkins albums. I rank it above MSTOS and TFE, though.

I really love AG, though - all 4 of those songs are really beautiful and meaningful to me. It seems to me they went into the recording of AG with no agenda to appeal to modern fans, or to make a political statement, or to recapture their sound, they just made a great EP in a very spontaneous, uncalculated manner.

I totally agree with the poster who said 'he wanted to pull a Green Day' and write an album that resonates like American Idiot. The political stuff on this album sort of drags it down, and it seems kind of forced. Corgan doesn't have the knack for writing these kinds of songs as Billy Joe Armstrong does, also when American Idiot came out it was a different political climate - it was a little more of a bold move to criticize the government a few years ago, now everybody does.

But I've had a problem with his lyrics ever since MCIS, I just couldn't relate to it as much when he moved from these really personal, introspective lyrics on the early albums, to trying to be the voice of his generation or something, it just seem inauthentic - at least on MCIS it was semi tongue in cheek and backed up by killer music.

A year later, I still love Zeitgeist and still think it's Billy's best since MCIS by far.

i want some of what you are smoking.

When it first came out, I listened to it a few times then forgot about it. I've been on a huge pumpkins kick again lately, and I've been listening to this album as much as all the others - it has been growing on me, although I like it less than all the other pumpkins albums. I rank it above MSTOS and TFE, though.

I really love AG, though - all 4 of those songs are really beautiful and meaningful to me. It seems to me they went into the recording of AG with no agenda to appeal to modern fans, or to make a political statement, or to recapture their sound, they just made a great EP in a very spontaneous, uncalculated manner.

I totally agree with the poster who said 'he wanted to pull a Green Day' and write an album that resonates like American Idiot. The political stuff on this album sort of drags it down, and it seems kind of forced. Corgan doesn't have the knack for writing these kinds of songs as Billy Joe Armstrong does, also when American Idiot came out it was a different political climate - it was a little more of a bold move to criticize the government a few years ago, now everybody does.

But I've had a problem with his lyrics ever since MCIS, I just couldn't relate to it as much when he moved from these really personal, introspective lyrics on the early albums, to trying to be the voice of his generation or something, it just seem inauthentic - at least on MCIS it was semi tongue in cheek and backed up by killer music.

Why is every new poster somebody's fucking troll

Why can't we just get one new person to post here, just one, real, pure, human being

how is that post trolling?

I'm your huckleberry

I think Billy went into this thinking he could pull off a come back similar to what Green Day did with the American Idiot album but ultimately he fell way short.

I personally don't feel any connection to the music from the album. I think it lacks substance and just has an overall feel of inferiority to their previous works, it feels to me like it was rushed and just sort of lacks energy. The album does not leave a lasting impression nor is it memorable. Other then maybe Bleeding the Orchid and United States I do not really like any of it.

Listening to the album recently just reminds me how Billy has lost his creative touch, the spark he had through SD-MCIS-Adore created almost endless music that was amazing but since then it has always felt at least for me like something was missing.

Maybe I am just old now and have grown out of the music I don't know...

i don't think billy put nearly as much thought into the "theme" like the way green day did. i think it was a quick unnecessary decision he made at the end, after the body of work complete.... he was probably thinking "well, i have 3 or 4 songs here that are political, its an undenaible topic right now, lets have some art direction to link it all together and gain some extra attention because of it."

I mean, though there's references to revolution and whatnot its really very vague and unspecific. he couldn't link the meloncholy or woe (been there done that)...he couldn't link the "we are a band, upon your stage" aspect (been there done that)....so he found another commonality, though its by no means a dominating theme to the album. zeitgeist is very vague that way, relative to Adore and Machina. (OT: another reason I think its the best since MCIS). so, yea...not nearly as integral as American Idiot's theme.

basically i think it was billy's equivalent to the label's decision to market multiple versions to Warner's business partners (i.e. just a little "something extra" to draw attention and add a nudge to album sales...like added with an "it can't hurt" attitude, but not much more than that). pretty lame, but i don't really give a shit because these choices have nothing to do with the fucking music.

the vagueness plays into why i think its hard to really connect with this album. i think its meant to make you think, vs. connect. and like you said, you're older now. its ok the be purely entertained vs. deeply connected.

lastly, i definitely don't think billy has lost his creativity. he continues to write some of the most complex and interesting rock songs out there, though they may be "odd" or "self indulgent" or "worse compared to X"....i think songs like tarantula and 7 shades all qualify as intelligent, creative, and complex rock songs.

Zeitgeist represents a pretty big step up from the hit-or-miss nature of the SP albums that came before it.

as an album, so true.

individually, i think the songs are an evolution in the right direction as well, with the right amount of retro + fresh approaches combined. and a good balance of restraint and bombast.

Zeitgeist is the worst thing released since MCIS is more like it.

Though that would be a lie, MSOTS is an infinitely worse offender. God, some of those songs just fucking suck straight cock.

then what about TFE? does that toss salads?

then what about TFE? does that toss salads?

I thoroughly enjoy TFE. It's not the most amazing thing Corgan has ever done, but in terms of creativity and songwriting it has a great big leg up on Zeitgeist.

Billy's mood is not to write songs about political, war or social themes, so Billy plz stop to invent shits and just do what is going on in 'our' souls....

***

tbh, i listened to zg again while reading the lyrics the other day and some songs seemed better. 7sob has a nice, real sense of negativity ('fall in hate with me' etc). i didn't know he was saying "acolyte, do you wanna wactch me DIE" in US (just taking spfc's word for it here), thats way cooler than what i thought it was (at the light, do you wonder what you've done). song is really well done, too bad it's too long to be a single.
so, to wrap it up..
voc. overdubs=bad
homogenous tone/sound=unacceptible
production=worst yet
songs=sometimes bad, sometimes good, once great

i guess we're never gonna see stuff like lily, 33, itaos, and bodies and xyu on the same cd again. too bad. that's what made them the best imo.

i guess we're never gonna see stuff like lily, 33, itaos, and bodies and xyu on the same cd again. too bad. that's what made them the best imo.

I wouldn't rule this out necessarily. Billy Corgan is a deeply talented man with many strange ideas in his head. I am still convinced the drop in quality since Adore is a result of what he is "going for" in those records and not his inability to write songs of the introspective quality of Siamese Dream.

which of course makes it that much more annoying

Nah dude I think you hit the nail on the head.

His playing has lost none if it's ability but his creativity and drive are what is lacking. I think that over the years he has changed a lot. He has tons of money and nothing really to worry about. In certain interviews he and jimmy really seem to give themselves a big pat on the back. They really need to rethink what the Smashing Pumpkins is all about before recording more stuff because this is just not it.

gotta agree with this sentiment.

In one TFE era interview Corgan expressed explicit fear of going back to his old themes, such as rage. Perhaps this is what is so adversely affecting his music?

perhaps this is what is keeping us listening for what direction his music will take next?

I still trust in Billy, the 10 seconds in the end of Tarantula song gave me hope!!! (lol?)

Lets wait what he brings us next time (more Superchrist noise no plztksbye^)

Nah dude I think you hit the nail on the head.

His playing has lost none if it's ability but his creativity and drive are what is lacking. I think that over the years he has changed a lot. He has tons of money and nothing really to worry about. In certain interviews he and jimmy really seem to give themselves a big pat on the back. They really need to rethink what the Smashing Pumpkins is all about before recording more stuff because this is just not it.

gotta agree with this sentiment.

In one TFE era interview Corgan expressed explicit fear of going back to his old themes, such as rage. Perhaps this is what is so adversely affecting his music?

he's fucking 40 now! you think he has the same angst as he did in 93? his lfe has not been the same since then....so obviously, his basis for inspiration and personal/intimate songs is going to be a lot different. i'd rather that, than some fake ass forced angst.

the angst thing, ok...
angst=ok, no angst=ok, songs/lyrics that suggest angst but lack the intensity to back it up=not ok.
there's whole worlds of bc material that is angst-free and way better than zg. blahblahblah

yes, there's good non-angst stuff. i was just picking on one adolescent emotion to make an example.

i still disagree about lack of intensity. anything that leaves you wantign more about the production and/or vocal performance is quickly remedied when the material is played live. as an album, its all subjective what different people perceive his level of "intensity" to be, especially with the awesome musical performance, so even that is debatable.

he's fucking 40 now! you think he has the same angst as he did in 93? his lfe has not been the same since then....so obviously, his basis for inspiration and personal/intimate songs is going to be a lot different. i'd rather that, than some fake ass forced angst.

He doesn't have to be filled with angst but he has to be filed with some emotion.

I get the impression that this album has some very calculated things on it.
if he was filled with some kind of emotion to drive the music I don't care which emotion , he wouldn't have to think about it so much and the songs would turn out a little better.

The guy used to churn out songs in the blink of an eye. He was very emotional and it just flowed out of him.And I don't think the Pumpkins were one dimensional they seemed to cover everything on their minds. Also the fucking guy has written a shitload of songs over the years. I'm not saying the well is running dry but I hope it rains soon.

i realize he's older, people change, grow, evolve, all that stuff. but like ALS said, "songs/lyrics that suggest angst but lack the intensity to back it up=not ok." I'm talking about strictly on the album; in a live setting, yes, they still have it. But on z, I'm just not feeling it. I know there's still a lot of emotion in this guy, 41 or not. He can still do what he used to do well, I just don't see that he's done so in the studio in quite some time.

He doesn't have to be filled with angst but he has to be filed with some emotion.

I get the impression that this album has some very calculated things on it.
if he was filled with some kind of emotion to drive the music I don't care which emotion , he wouldn't have to think about it so much and the songs would turn out a little better.

The guy used to churn out songs in the blink of an eye. He was very emotional and it just flowed out of him.And I don't think the Pumpkins were one dimensional they seemed to cover everything on their minds. Also the fucking guy has written a shitload of songs over the years. I'm not saying the well is running dry but I hope it rains soon.

have you seen the zeitgeist material played live?

also, are you basically saying that with a little more "heart", strain in his voice, whatever...and then you would be happy?

I just don't see that he's done so in the studio in quite some time.


AG and SC and some of the zeitgeist b-sides were better though, don't you think? a step in the right direction for you?

i don't get how Zeitgeist's songs "suggest angst". it doesn't make any claims to be raging against anything, nothing like that in the lyrics. it's all detachment and resignation, which is exactly what, say, the vocals communicate.

AG and SC and some of the zeitgeist b-sides were better though, don't you think?

I gotta agree with you on Superchrist and the Zeitgeist bonus tracks (even though I detest Death From Above), but I feel American Gothic really was pretty standard. I did not think it was complete shit like everyone else here did, but I fell it was, well, boring in some parts.

My expectations for the EP were high since I enjoyed Zeitgeist a lot, but I feel American Gothic was kind of a lame afterthought. I'll admit I love The Rose March (and is actually one of the few songs I thought the vocal layering worked well on) and think Sunkissed is a pretty cool companion to Daydream, but the middle songs (The Crux and POX) have to be two of the most boring, standard songs I have ever heard.

Also, Billy's vocals are, in fact, complete shit on American Gothic. I'm not even talking about the general "layering complaints," I'm talking about the fact that Billy sounds like he's reading the lyrics off a cue card while keeping melody in his head.

I gotta agree with you on Superchrist and the Zeitgeist bonus tracks (even though I detest Death From Above), but I feel American Gothic really was pretty standard. I did not think it was complete shit like everyone else here did, but I fell it was, well, boring in some parts.

My expectations for the EP were high since I enjoyed Zeitgeist a lot, but I feel American Gothic was kind of a lame afterthought. I'll admit I love The Rose March (and is actually one of the few songs I thought the vocal layering worked well on) and think Sunkissed is a pretty cool companion to Daydream, but the middle songs (The Crux and POX) have to be two of the most boring, standard songs I have ever heard.

i dunno, i see it more as a direct result of the residency expermetnation that went on, moreso than an afterthought. perhaps with a warmer reception, some of the other new songs would have been finalized as well. but in the end, billy went with 3 of his choice + 1 that pete townshend liked.

personally, the more i hear AG the more i like it. like Zeigeist, it deserves a decent musical committment to appreciate...after being listened to, put away, and then brought back out and revisited. its certainly modest and not-groundbreaking in anyway, but i like it.

Also, Billy's vocals are, in fact, complete shit on American Gothic. I'm not even talking about the general "layering complaints," I'm talking about the fact that Billy sounds like he's reading the lyrics off a cue card while keeping melody in his head.

really? i don't hear that at all. i hear a more natural delivery than on zeitgesit, actually. which is why i asking above if ppl felt this was a step in the right direction.

Kill Bill?
























ofc not

i dunno, i see it more as a direct result of the residency expermetnation that went on, moreso than an afterthought. perhaps with a warmer reception, some of the other new songs would have been finalized as well. but in the end, billy went with 3 of his choice + 1 that pete townshend liked.

That's the thing, it really does not represent the residency shows. The Rose MArch is a great song, probably the best on AG, but it was tinkered with in the studio so much that, to me, it is almost an entriely different song than what was played in the residencies. When Billy opened the first Atlanta show with the song, I could not believe what a gret, natural song it was; it sond nothing like this on the EP. Besides that, I do not think any of the other songs had anything to do with the residencies. Sunkissed was a great song, but The Crux and POX have to be two of the most boring songs Bily has ever written.

AG and SC and some of the zeitgeist b-sides were better though, don't you think? a step in the right direction for you?


honestly, i don't enjoy AG at all :(
But I will agree that most of the z b-sides were very VERY good. The best stuff from this era, without a doubt. Stellar by itself is enough to give me hope that I'll enjoy future releases.

i must be in the extreme minority but i dont like ANY of the zeitgeist b-sides. at all. ma belle is just alright. stellar had its time on my playlists, but i absolutely hate dfa.

i do enjoy AG but only about as much as zeitgeist. againx3 and sunkissed i dig