>> Who is Barack Obama?
>>
>> Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born
>> in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM
from
>> Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHIEST from Wichita,
>> Kansas.
>>
>> Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. When Obama was two
>> years old, his parents divorced. His father returned to Kenya. His
>> mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia.
>> When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia.
Obama
>> attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta. He also spent two y ears in a
>> Catholic school.
>>
>> Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He
is
>> quick to point out that, "He was once a Muslim, but that he also
>> attended Catholic school."
>>
>> Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that
>> Obama's introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this
>> influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama
>> returned to Kenya soon after the divorce, and never again had any
>> direct influence over his son's education.
>>
>> Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham,
>> introduced his, stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi
>> school in Jakarta. Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is
followed
>> by the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the
western
>> world. Since it is politically expedient to be a CHRI STIAN when
>> seeking Major public office in the United States, Barack Hussein
Obama
>> hasm joined the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay
his
>> Muslim background.
>>
>>
>>
>> ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he DID NOT use
>> the Holy Bible, but instead the Kuran (Their equivalency to our
Bible,
>> but very different beliefs)
>>
>> Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential
>> candidacy. The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US
from
>> the inside out, what better way to start than at the highest level -
>> through the President of the United States, one of their own!!!!
>>
>> Please forward to everyone you know. Would you want this man
leading
>> our country?...... NOT ME!!
>>
>> If you do not ever forward anything else, please forward this to all
>> your contacts.........this is very scary to think of what lies ahead
>> of us here in our own United States........ better heed this and
pray
>> about it and share it.
>> THIS DEFINITELY WARRANTS LOOKING INTO. THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED,
"ONE
>> NATION UNDER GOD". ALMIGHTY GOD, NOT THE GOD OF THE KORAN.
>>
>> We checked this out on " snopes.com". It is factual. Check for
>> yourself.
>>
>>

I'm more concerned about not having a lick of executive experience in his life...but he probably has my vote.

wait, this is fact? ************* to thread.

>> THIS DEFINITELY WARRANTS LOOKING INTO. THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED,
"ONE
>> NATION UNDER GOD". ALMIGHTY GOD, NOT THE GOD OF THE KORAN.



You DO realise that the Islamic God is the same God as the Christian God, right? That Jesus is named as a prophet in the Koran, as well as many of the same stories from the Bible and the Torah?

That's the least of my complaints about this. First off, i thought there was supposed to be a separation of church and state, though this rule has been broken time and again in favour of the Christians. Why does this rule somehow not extend to people who have connections to Islam?

Secondly, radicalism in Islam is one small group of people who've taken it on themselves to speak for the entire religion and get the attention of western media, breeding the culture of hate that this email upholds to a disgusting amount. There are NO religions of peace, so don't try to say that there is one less radical religion over another (remember the crusades?)

Thirdly, he has chosen to align himself with Christianity now. he made a clear, conscious choice to follow a certain religion, and not the one you're bitching about.

Next - he's the most liberal politician on the bill. His policies go against the fundamental teachings of all religious texts - the Bible, The Koran, The Book of Scientology.

Lastly, what the fuck does it matter if he's Islamic in general? Does that somehow make him less able to be a successful person?

this email was forwarded to me by my conserative aunt in kentucky

she was dead serious


i sent everyone on her list a counteremail

remember religion is no longer about anything so noble as fighting for one's god or beliefs, its merely the tool used to brainwash impressionable young men and women into doing evil things to benefit those in power. if barack is secretly a radical muslim planning to hand america to islam on a plate, how's he going to do it? unless a vast majority of key political and economic figures in the US are affiliated with them and all working together, its not like he can just change a bunch of rules overnight that say radical islam is ok or that they're gonna fund the middle east or whatever. this is really irrational. that said, i still don't quite trust him for whatever reason. i'd vote for hills.

probably a good sign if it's come to this sort of panic

i will love it when obama gets to appoint 3 justices and they will MANDATE abortions and gay marriages for everyone!

i have no clue if what the original post stated is fact. i don't care

probably a good sign if it's come to this sort of panic


unfortunately, it's a very old email

I like the panic this induces (especially in me, and i'm not even american). good show!

And my "you-ing" in my first reply wasn't directed at anyone in particular

i will love it when obama gets to appoint 3 justices and they will MANDATE abortions and gay marriages for everyone!

OH NOES!

that kinda reminds me of this conversation i had with an elderly woman a few years ago...

her: "are you voting tomorrow, dear?"
me: "of course."
her, in hushed tones: "and who are you voting for?"
me, trying to circumvent a potentially touchy subject: "i haven't quite made up my mind yet..."
her: "i'm voting for bush! i don't like that kerry. [pause] you know, the catholics are against abortion. and i watch the EWTN, and i know it's not just the catholics. even the colored churches! [another pause] and if that kerry gets in, there's going to be the abortion, and the homosexuals, and the thing with the cells..."
me: "stem cell research?"
her: "THAT'S IT! you know they take the cells from the em-br-eye-oh and that's murder, mhm! and the euthanasia, you know what euthanasia is? [dramatic pause] it's when you get old and they kill you because you're no good anymore, mmhmm. and that kerry, he reminds me of hitler!"
me, trying not to look utterly horrified at the notion of this woman going to the polls: "HITLER?"
her: "he does! the way he moves when he talks! like this! [starts flailing her arms in the air in a mock nazi salute, nearly falling off her chair in the process] but i know dear, you have to work. you just have such a sweet disposition, and i'd hate to see you sin..."
me: "mrs so and so, i -- sin?"
her, very seriously, reaching over to pat my hand: "maybe you ought to talk to your priest about it."

:erm:

OH NOES!

that kinda reminds me of this conversation i had with an elderly woman a few years ago...

her: "are you voting tomorrow, dear?"
me: "of course."
her, in hushed tones: "and who are you voting for?"
me, trying to circumvent a potentially touchy subject: "i haven't quite made up my mind yet..."
her: "i'm voting for bush! i don't like that kerry. [pause] you know, the catholics are against abortion. and i watch the EWTN, and i know it's not just the catholics. even the colored churches! [another pause] and if that kerry gets in, there's going to be the abortion, and the homosexuals, and the thing with the cells..."
me: "stem cell research?"
her: "THAT'S IT! you know they take the cells from the em-br-eye-oh and that's murder, mhm! and the euthanasia, you know what euthanasia is? [dramatic pause] it's when you get old and they kill you because you're no good anymore, mmhmm. and that kerry, he reminds me of hitler!"
me, trying not to look utterly horrified at the notion of this woman going to the polls: "HITLER?"
her: "he does! the way he moves when he talks! like this! [starts flailing her arms in the air in a mock nazi salute, nearly falling off her chair in the process] but i know dear, you have to work. you just have such a sweet disposition, and i'd hate to see you sin..."
me: "mrs so and so, i -- sin?"
her, very seriously, reaching over to pat my hand: "maybe you ought to talk to your priest about it."

:erm:

ha, wow. beautifully recounted by the way, you a writer?

ha, wow. beautifully recounted by the way, you a writer?

ha, thanks. and no, i'm not. too lazy.

I was listening to my local conservative talk show host Tuesday and a caller called in and said that no matter what Obama stood for he couldn't vote for a Muslim. This is Connecticut, remember. He sounded dumbfounded to hear that Obama hadn't really take his oath of office with his hand on the Koran.

Okay did he get the memo that Obama isn't muslim? Secondly, did he get the memo that he's making Christians look like douches? Huckabee's more dangerous than any average Muslim as far as endangering our freedom of religion.

And the scare campaign begins. We're gonna be seeing lots of this crap in the following months.

this email was forwarded to me by my conserative aunt in kentucky

she was dead serious


i sent everyone on her list a counteremail

good job on that

i can't believe people sometimes

i mean this email has been around for a few months and has been refuted in the media and by obama in debates multiple times but the target audience for these emails probably isn't watching dem debates

I was listening to my local conservative talk show host Tuesday and a caller called in and said that no matter what Obama stood for he couldn't vote for a Muslim. This is Connecticut, remember. He sounded dumbfounded to hear that Obama hadn't really take his oath of office with his hand on the Koran.

My girlfriend's mother is absolutely convinced that Obama is Muslim. She made some comment about it and I said, "Obama is not a Muslim, he's a Christian". "Well he was influenced by Islamic beliefs and they are the people blowing us up in Iraq!" I kind of just stared at her and I said, "But every religion has extremists, its no different than a Christian blowing up an abortion clinic. It's not fair to discriminate against an entire religious group because of its extremists." She got really frustrated then and kept insisting that I "just did not understand".

Damn there are some stupid people out there.

Huckabee's more dangerous than any average Muslim as far as endangering our freedom of religion.

here here!


Here's what I'm concerned about: George W. Bush was an alcoholic, correct? A drug addict, for lack of a better term (addicted to alcohol). However, he was "born again" as an adult, correct? And his constituency defended him and accepted him because he was born again. Conservative Christians voted for Bush in droves (over McCain in 2000) because he was a good born again Christian who had turned away from the evil earthly ways. That's fine with me.

But what about Obama? I think his admitted drug abuse will be a problem for him nationally against McCain. When he inevitably claims he was born again as an adult and found Christ, will people (read: evangelical Christians) be so quick to accept this as fact?

My girlfriend's mother is absolutely convinced that Obama is Muslim. She made some comment about it and I said, "Obama is not a Muslim, he's a Christian". "Well he was influenced by Islamic beliefs and they are the people blowing us up in Iraq!" I kind of just stared at her and I said, "But every religion has extremists, its no different than a Christian blowing up an abortion clinic. It's not fair to discriminate against an entire religious group because of its extremists." She got really frustrated then and kept insisting that I "just did not understand".

often older people who say younger people "don't understand" might have a point. but what pisses me off is that the stupid ones ALWAYS pull that card and actually truly believe that they're right.

it's terrifying.

Huckabee's more dangerous than any average Muslim as far as endangering our freedom of religion.

This is very true. Huckabee I think is the only person in this election I would actively vote against.

Huckabee's more dangerous than any average Muslim as far as endangering our freedom of religion.

How do you figure? Not that I'm saying that Muslims are endangering our freedom of religion, because they're not. But neither is Huckabee.

It's amazing to me that people can see how ridiculous religious scaremongering is against one candidate, and then turn right around and parrot similar religious scaremongering as gospel truth against another.

his comments on changing to constitution to conform to gods word dont do that?

The US is going to fuck things up all over again because of shit like this.

his comments on changing to constitution to conform to gods word dont do that?

word. Osama Bin Laden's demands for America ******* adopting Islam as government policy. What's the difference between that and "conforming the constitution to God's law" How the fk does Huckabee have the balls to assume he knows what God's Law is in the first place? He can believe what he wants, but don't force that on the rest of us. It's a democracy and a republic, and the sooner he realizes that, the better.

He's the only one that thinks he should inject a good dose of "Jesus" into American policy. The trouble with that is, while I consider myself a Christian, I don't want Huckabee's version of Christ --HuckaJesus-- running things, thanks. I'll stick to the three-tiered representative government with checks and balances if that's alright.

Oh-- and I want my President to have at least as much of an education as I do.

It's amazing to me that people can see how ridiculous religious scaremongering is against one candidate, and then turn right around and parrot similar religious scaremongering as gospel truth against another.

“I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution. But I believe it’s a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God. And that’s what we need to do is amend the Constitution so it’s in God’s standards rather than trying to change God’s standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family.”

Is he really an atheist? If so that's a good thing.

How do you figure? Not that I'm saying that Muslims are endangering our freedom of religion, because they're not. But neither is Huckabee.

It's amazing to me that people can see how ridiculous religious scaremongering is against one candidate, and then turn right around and parrot similar religious scaremongering as gospel truth against another.

are you retarded?

Corganist is, yes. Have you never noticed before?

“I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution. But I believe it’s a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God. And that’s what we need to do is amend the Constitution so it’s in God’s standards rather than trying to change God’s standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family.”

What's strange about this quote is that I can't find a complete video or transcript of the speech it came from. But even out of context, it's fucking retarded to take it to mean that he somehow wants to turn the Constitution into some kind of theocratic document. I mean, are you fucking kidding me? By all accounts, the guy was talking about his support of human life and marriage amendments to the Constitution, which may be really stupid and bad ideas, but their passage wouldn't present any religious freedom issues in and of themselves.

This idea that Huckabee wants to officially enact some sort of theocratic state ruled by God's law or whatever is just as retarded and hyperbolic as this "Obama is working with the Muslims!" crap. There are a lot of perfectly legitimate reasons to not like Huckabee without branding him as some sort of would-be theocratic despot just waiting to clamp down on our religious freedom. You guys are smarter than this.

originally posted by the sellout:

First off, i thought there was supposed to be a separation of church and state

wrong. that's the not the wording and for the life of me everyone gets this wrong.


The state shall not establish a religion. Doesn't stop Darwinist in the public schools though.

This idea that Huckabee wants to officially enact some sort of theocratic state ruled by God's law or whatever is just as retarded and hyperbolic as this "Obama is working with the Muslims!" crap.

But he does want to. The man said it. As you pointed out, it wouldnt pass, but he wants it.

But he does want to. The man said it. As you pointed out, it wouldnt pass, but he wants it.

Supporting an amendment to the Constitution for religious reasons =/= wanting to establish a theocracy.

COLMES: All right, Governor, you made a statement at a rally in Michigan within the last 24 hours. You said, I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution. You said, I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it'd be to change the word of the living God, and that's what we need to do."

That makes people a little worried. It sounds like you're looking to have a theocratic state when you make statements like that...

HUCKABEE: Oh, no, Alan.

COLMES: ... going to make change in Constitution...

HUCKABEE: Not at all.

COLMES: ... in keeping with your view of God.

HUCKABEE: On two things. The context is two things, human life amendment, which I support and which has been in the Republican platform since 1980. And by the way, Fred Thompson doesn't support it, nor does John McCain. And yet it's part of our platform. And it's a very important part of our platform to say that human life is something we're going to stand for. And the second thing is traditional marriage.

So those are the two areas which I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting that we rewrite the Constitution to reflect tithing or Sunday school attendance. I want to make that very clear.

Oh, so we'll just call it by a more acceptable name, ok. Now it makes sense.

This idea that Huckabee wants to officially enact some sort of theocratic state ruled by God's law or whatever is just as retarded and hyperbolic as this "Obama is working with the Muslims!" crap.

It's retarded and hyperbolic because this is your standard M.O. - overstate the other side's opinion wildly so it's that much easier to dispute. You do it on everything from politics to shitty game shows on NBC. It's boring and disingenuous and is a hallmark of why many here think you're a complete joke and not worth engaging.

Oh, so we'll just call it by a more acceptable name, ok. Now it makes sense.

:dammit:

There is no "it." Now you're just being silly.

It's retarded and hyperbolic because this is your standard M.O. - overstate the other side's opinion wildly so it's that much easier to dispute. You do it on everything from politics to shitty game shows on NBC. It's boring and disingenuous and is a hallmark of why many here think you're a complete joke and not worth engaging.

How am I overstating anything? :think:

Talk about fucking disingenuous....

all I said is that Huckabee is a <greater> threat, etc... take that statement to be as extreme as you want.

all I said is that Huckabee is a <greater> threat, etc... take that statement to be as extreme as you want.

You compared his views to Osama Bin Laden wanting to establish Islam as the state religion of the US and suggested that he wanted to "force" religion on people. Don't even pretend like I'm the one who's blowing things out of proportion.

I don't care if you guys don't like Huckabee. I don't either. But if you're gonna exaggerate or even just invent reasons out of thin air to support that view, then don't criticize the other people who also want to exaggerate and make up bad shit about the candidates they don't like.

Supporting an amendment to the Constitution for religious reasons =/= wanting to establish a theocracy.

Awesome. Really, what the Constitution needs is less of those rights and more restrictions on the populace.

uh... nobody else of comparable national prominence comes as close to Osama Bin Laden in wanting to force their religious beliefs on the country. "Bring the Constitution into conformity with God's law." I didn't make that up, and I can't EVEN imagine any other credible candidate saying something so redneck... and here people were worried about Obama and Romney, who are both even handed enough to keep their beliefs out of the limelight and can probably see how messed up it would be to use a position of power to force their belief system/agenda on the WHOLE COUNTRY. On the other hand, Huck doesn't scare me, because he doesn't seem capable of convincing anybody except his followers and plus he doesn't strike me as the violent type-- just the dumb type.

Awesome. Really, what the Constitution needs is less of those rights and more restrictions on the populace.

It's not like I'm saying that I approve of his ideas. I'm just saying it's very disingenuous to frame them in terms of him trying to impose religion on people as a scaremongering tactic. If, for example, the guy said we should repeal the Second Amendment because God doesn't like people killing each other, it'd be a dumb idea and an even dumber justification for it...but at its core it'd be an issue of gun control and civil rights, not religious freedom and theocracy.

Most of Huckabee's ideas are bad enough on their own merits. It's not necessary to act like he's some theocratic bogeyman-in-waiting.


uh... nobody else of comparable national prominence comes as close to Osama Bin Laden in wanting to force their religious beliefs on the country.

Oh please. If you play that game, then you might as well allow the "Obama = Muslim" slurs to go on too. After all, he comes closer to being a Muslim (by virtue of having one in his family) than all the other Presidential candidates. Your logic here is utterly ridiculous.

barack obama? more like black-o-rama

barack obama? more like black-o-rama

LOL


barack the vote

he's the kung fu hippie from gangsta city

did you see that thread about hillary clinton on hipinion?

aww, corgy doesn't realize that a twat like huckabee is undefendable

aww, corgy doesn't realize that a twat like huckabee is undefendable

Just because the guy is a terrible presidential candidate with mostly terrible ideas doesn't mean that every bad thing someone can say about the guy is true. Maybe it's just a little hometown bias on my part, but I just don't get why people think it's terrible when a twat like Obama is smeared, but then defend similar tactics against a twat like Huckabee. I'm just asking for some fucking consistency out of you guys.

you know who's a twat for real though is clinton's new campaign manager, getta load of that guy

Awesome. Really, what the Constitution needs is less of those rights and more restrictions on the populace.
this is what i've always found ridiculous about this constitutional amendment rhetoric the neocons love. they don't understand why it exists. there's a reason "queers can't get married" isn't already on there.

often older people who say younger people "don't understand" might have a point. but what pisses me off is that the stupid ones ALWAYS pull that card and actually truly believe that they're right.

it's terrifying.

I really wanted to say, "If by 'you don't understand' you mean that I don't know what it is like to live my life completely ruled by baseless racist fears fed by people you are too ignorant to question, to live my life fed by hate mongering Fox News sensationalism, to live my life blindly following things I know nothing about, than no, I do not fucking understand."

But I didn't because, you know, it's my girlfriend's mom.

Fuck he's a Muslim?>?? let's waterboard him and get to the bottom of this!!!

Oh please. If you play that game, then you might as well allow the "Obama = Muslim" slurs to go on too. After all, he comes closer to being a Muslim (by virtue of having one in his family) than all the other Presidential candidates. Your logic here is utterly ridiculous.
:think:

wow. I actually think you were unable to understand my logic at all ...like, egregiously. What I said had fuck all to do with the flavor of the religion, just rehearsing the equation of its imposition on public policy by way of the fanaticism of one of its politically prominent adherents.

Also, I don't consider calling someone a Muslim to be a slur. You're a different type of guy.

this is what i've always found ridiculous about this constitutional amendment rhetoric the neocons love. they don't understand why it exists. there's a reason "queers can't get married" isn't already on there.

i'm ok if a state wants to ban same sex marriages though. i wouldn't vote for it, and it's not a Constitutional issue though

:think:

wow. I actually think you were unable to understand my logic at all ...like, egregiously. What I said had fuck all to do with the flavor of the religion, just rehearsing the equation of its imposition on public policy by way of the fanaticism of one of its politically prominent adherents.

It doesn't matter what you were talking about. Your logic was terrible regardless. If you can justify comparing Huckabee to Osama Bin Laden solely on the idea that Huckabee is somehow closer to him in his beliefs than the other candidates, then you can justify any horrible kind of inaccurate attack on a candidate. Just because the spectrum of "belief about the amount of religion's role in society" runs something like:

Other Candidates < Huckabee <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Bin Laden

doesn't mean that it's fair or accurate to mention Huckabee in the same sentence as Bin Laden in any way, shape, or form. But I suspect that you know that. A couple questionable quotes made on the campaign trail shouldn't leave someone open for comparisons to a guy who has murdered thousands of people in the name of his religion.

Also, I don't consider calling someone a Muslim to be a slur.

I don't either...but the people who send out e-mails like the one that this thread is about do. The point is that he's not a Muslim, so it's improper to say he is. But by your logic, it should be fair game to label Obama as one since "nobody else is closer" to being a Muslim in this race. Surely you see how ridiculous and unfair that is.

let's just all agree to agree that Huckabee is an idiot

let's just all agree to agree that Huckabee is an idiot

I think we already do. I just don't think he's that much worse than all the other idiots, that's all.

People who fall for this shit don't vote for Democrats anyway.

So what if his dad was a muslim and his mom an atheist. He's neither.

...or <i>is he</i>?

People who fall for this shit don't vote for Democrats anyway.

So what if his dad was a muslim and his mom an atheist. He's neither.

He's not an atheist? I'm disappointed.

My girlfriend's mother is absolutely convinced that Obama is Muslim. She made some comment about it and I said, "Obama is not a Muslim, he's a Christian". "Well he was influenced by Islamic beliefs and they are the people blowing us up in Iraq!" I kind of just stared at her and I said, "But every religion has extremists, its no different than a Christian blowing up an abortion clinic. It's not fair to discriminate against an entire religious group because of its extremists." She got really frustrated then and kept insisting that I "just did not understand".

I'd have to agree with your girlfriend's mother; you do seem kinda ignorant. There has not been a single death in an abortion clinic-related attack since 1998. How many suicide bomb-related deaths have there been since 1998? C'mon, I understand that you want to paint the "all religions have their extremists. they're all exactly the same. let's all hold hands" picture, and I applaud you for it. But the fact of the matter is that the comparison between the two is way off.

I work in a company that is owned by a man of Iranian descent, and there is a very large percentage of Muslim employees working here (who are all, from what i've seen, perfectly reasonable and peace-loving people). But until a Christian wacko flies a plane into a building, or you see a failed assassination attempt on a CARTOONIST because he had the audacity to make a comic depicting their prophet with a bomb strapped to him; there will be people who lump all muslims together in the same group as the extremists. Fundamentalist Islam is a scary thing because their are actual Governments in this world built around it principles.

i'm ok if a state wants to ban same sex marriages though. i wouldn't vote for it, and it's not a Constitutional issue though

see i think this is interesting. why would it be ok? because the citizens of that state think that's how it should be? if they are given the opportunity in that arena, then where does the line get drawn? you know what i'm sayin' here?

Ahhh, states' rights...first slavery, then segregation, then abortion, now gay marriage? What a sparkling record.

see i think this is interesting. why would it be ok? because the citizens of that state think that's how it should be? if they are given the opportunity in that arena, then where does the line get drawn? you know what i'm sayin' here?

Because states also have constitutions, and the US Constitution specifically gives those powers not listed in it to the states. The feds like to continue to forget about that part, but yes, states should have more autonomy and you would be able to move to a state whose ideals are more like yours in that you'll see more diverse governments.

Hate to break it to everyone, but marriage is one of the fundamental rights heavily protected by the iron clad Constitutional(article IV) principle of substantive Due Process (under Privacy), which is subject only to the "strict scrutiny" standard-- the government cannot mess with it under any circumstances unless there is a very very specific Gov't interest in doing so (which essentially can never happen). This can't be thrown to the states to interpret the definition of marriage-- the supreme court or congress needs to set forth guidelines regarding this issue not contemplated at the Constitution's creation before we have a jurisprudential quagmire on our hands.

Hate to break it to everyone, but marriage is one of the fundamental rights heavily protected by the iron clad Constitutional(article IV) principle of substantive Due Process (under Privacy), which is subject only to the "strict scrutiny" standard-- the government cannot mess with it under any circumstances unless there is a very very specific Gov't interest in doing so (which essentially can never happen).

While it's true that the Supreme Court has at times said that marriage is a "fundamental right," it doesn't seem like courts always treat it as such. I'm not sure many courts have employed strict scrutiny in marriage cases all that often. And when they have employed it (or something similar), it's usually because of the existence of a "suspect classification" (the racial issue in Loving vs. Virginia, for example) as opposed to the mere implication of the fundamental right of marriage. It seems that most gay marriage cases I've read over the years have used the rational basis test.

But it's been a couple years now since I've even given much thought to Constitutional Law, so I could be wrong on all that.

This can't be thrown to the states to interpret the definition of marriage-- the supreme court or congress needs to set forth guidelines regarding this issue not contemplated at the Constitution's creation before we have a jurisprudential quagmire on our hands.

They've pretty much done that already. The Defense of Marriage Act basically lays out that states can do what they want, but they don't have to recognize each other's same sex marriages if they don't want to, and neither does the federal government. Not that it's a great solution that makes everyone happy...but no matter what the states or the federal government do on this issue, people are going to be unhappy. I don't think the issue is as simple as simply having Washington DC come up with a edict to be enforced on everyone (because Lord knows that strategy certainly didn't settle the abortion debate).

Hate to break it to everyone, but marriage is one of the fundamental rights heavily protected by the iron clad Constitutional(article IV) principle of substantive Due Process (under Privacy), which is subject only to the "strict scrutiny" standard-- the government cannot mess with it under any circumstances unless there is a very very specific Gov't interest in doing so (which essentially can never happen). This can't be thrown to the states to interpret the definition of marriage-- the supreme court or congress needs to set forth guidelines regarding this issue not contemplated at the Constitution's creation before we have a jurisprudential quagmire on our hands.

Ok except that Article IV (even with your crazed interpretation of it) applies restrictions on the FEDERAL government.

Ok except that Article IV (even with your crazed interpretation of it) applies restrictions on the FEDERAL government.

Yeah, that confused me too. Perhaps he meant the 14th Amendment.

I'd have to agree with your girlfriend's mother; you do seem kinda ignorant. There has not been a single death in an abortion clinic-related attack since 1998. How many suicide bomb-related deaths have there been since 1998? C'mon, I understand that you want to paint the "all religions have their extremists. they're all exactly the same. let's all hold hands" picture, and I applaud you for it. But the fact of the matter is that the comparison between the two is way off.

I work in a company that is owned by a man of Iranian descent, and there is a very large percentage of Muslim employees working here (who are all, from what i've seen, perfectly reasonable and peace-loving people). But until a Christian wacko flies a plane into a building, or you see a failed assassination attempt on a CARTOONIST because he had the audacity to make a comic depicting their prophet with a bomb strapped to him; there will be people who lump all muslims together in the same group as the extremists. Fundamentalist Islam is a scary thing because their are actual Governments in this world built around it principles.


:erm:



Take a look into the history of Christian violence and you shall see the point the man was trying to make. The difference is what time frames you are looking at. The ignorance you spoke of should of been your own.

He was making a statement against broad generalizations and I think that statement holds up very well.

I'd have to agree with your girlfriend's mother; you do seem kinda ignorant. There has not been a single death in an abortion clinic-related attack since 1998. How many suicide bomb-related deaths have there been since 1998? C'mon, I understand that you want to paint the "all religions have their extremists. they're all exactly the same. let's all hold hands" picture, and I applaud you for it. But the fact of the matter is that the comparison between the two is way off.

I work in a company that is owned by a man of Iranian descent, and there is a very large percentage of Muslim employees working here (who are all, from what i've seen, perfectly reasonable and peace-loving people). But until a Christian wacko flies a plane into a building, or you see a failed assassination attempt on a CARTOONIST because he had the audacity to make a comic depicting their prophet with a bomb strapped to him; there will be people who lump all muslims together in the same group as the extremists. Fundamentalist Islam is a scary thing because their are actual Governments in this world built around it principles.

I don't really want to wade into this late in the game but this is a bit of a poor call. dudehitsscar sort of summed it up but you can't really discount the history of Christian violence just because in recent times there's been supposedly more shit caused by Muslim extremists. That history is also pretty important in putting the current climate of violence in some sort of understandable context as well.

Ok except that Article IV (even with your crazed interpretation of it) applies restrictions on the FEDERAL government.

.. I just mixed up interstate privileges and immunities of article IV with the P & A of the 14th A. and consequently rights to privacy partially created by the 14th A. My Bad.

My point is that I don't like having states be able to determine which fundamental private rights are legal. You'll see things like we saw where people briefly went apeshit and planned these massive pilgrimages into San Francisco and Massachusetts to get married, then Rosie O'Donnel and Richard Simmons are getting hitched while sweatin' to the oldies, and then Congress will step in via Interstate Commerce, accompanied by more judicial activism, cats humping dogs, etc.

If we're going to do this thing, do it all the way or not at all. It's all too shrill for my taste.

Actually Corganist, I take that back... I kind of like the delicate, Jenga-like balance we've got going right now. Nobody move, nobody breathe. I'd actually be scared of another Rodney King riot in the bay area or somewhere if they actually made gay marriage unconstitutional.

I'd have to agree with your girlfriend's mother; you do seem kinda ignorant. There has not been a single death in an abortion clinic-related attack since 1998. How many suicide bomb-related deaths have there been since 1998? C'mon, I understand that you want to paint the "all religions have their extremists. they're all exactly the same. let's all hold hands" picture, and I applaud you for it. But the fact of the matter is that the comparison between the two is way off.

I work in a company that is owned by a man of Iranian descent, and there is a very large percentage of Muslim employees working here (who are all, from what i've seen, perfectly reasonable and peace-loving people). But until a Christian wacko flies a plane into a building, or you see a failed assassination attempt on a CARTOONIST because he had the audacity to make a comic depicting their prophet with a bomb strapped to him; there will be people who lump all muslims together in the same group as the extremists. Fundamentalist Islam is a scary thing because their are actual Governments in this world built around it principles.

Gosh, where should I even start? Ok, here: you are a fucking moron. CHRISTIANITY HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST VIOLENT RELIGIOUS FORCES IN THE HISTORY OF THE EARTH. Are you seriously this fucking stupid or are you just a bigot?

Edit: I'd also like to add the religious zeal of those in charge of our country and how it has been responsible for possibly up to 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq as a crime on the part of the Christian religion. Could you show me when the last time was Muslims killed 100,000 Christians? Thanks.

oh, and can you change that avatar? It kind of makes me uneasy.

I don't really want to wade into this late in the game but this is a bit of a poor call. dudehitsscar sort of summed it up but you can't really discount the history of Christian violence just because in recent times there's been supposedly more shit caused by Muslim extremists. That history is also pretty important in putting the current climate of violence in some sort of understandable context as well.

dude, you seemed to miss my point completely. my post was trying to give an idea as to why people may be making these broad generalizations. i wasn't agreeing with them (see: part in post where I said that EVERY muslim person I know is hard-working, family-oriented and peaceful).

there is no reason to have such a knee-jerk reaction any time someone points out how dangerous the fundamentalist movement in the Middle East is. Yes, Christrianity has a very bloody history, no doubt about it. We all know about the Crusades several HUNDRED years ago. But whether you'd like to admit it or not, Fundamentalist Islam is the single biggest threat to peace in the world today.

Gosh, where should I even start? Ok, here: you are a fucking moron. CHRISTIANITY HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST VIOLENT RELIGIOUS FORCES IN THE HISTORY OF THE EARTH. Are you seriously this fucking stupid or are you just a bigot?

Edit: I'd also like to add the religious zeal of those in charge of our country and how it has been responsible for possibly up to 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq as a crime on the part of the Christian religion. Could you show me when the last time was Muslims killed 100,000 Christians? Thanks.

Come on, man. Get off your soap box. Do you honestly believe that the US soldiers are the ones that killed even a significant fraction of these 100,000 people in Iraq you are referring to? That's weird, I thought it was suicide bombers and insurgents who were responsible for most of these killings.

Gosh, where should I even start? Ok, here: you are a fucking moron. CHRISTIANITY HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST VIOLENT RELIGIOUS FORCES IN THE HISTORY OF THE EARTH. Are you seriously this fucking stupid or are you just a bigot?

Edit: I'd also like to add the religious zeal of those in charge of our country and how it has been responsible for possibly up to 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq as a crime on the part of the Christian religion. Could you show me when the last time was Muslims killed 100,000 Christians? Thanks.

Also, how does bringing up the ridiculousness of a cartoonist fearing for his life make me a bigot? Are you really that PC that you can't even point out the shortcomings of others? Is this really how far we've come? I was simply trying to explain how some people might feel weary of a religion they have no experience with besides what they're seeing going on around the world, and I get attacked and called a bigot. Bravo!

we need some devious lee up in here

dude, you seemed to miss my point completely. my post was trying to give an idea as to why people may be making these broad generalizations. i wasn't agreeing with them (see: part in post where I said that EVERY muslim person I know is hard-working, family-oriented and peaceful).

there is no reason to have such a knee-jerk reaction any time someone points out how dangerous the fundamentalist movement in the Middle East is. Yes, Christrianity has a very bloody history, no doubt about it. We all know about the Crusades several HUNDRED years ago. But whether you'd like to admit it or not, Fundamentalist Islam is the single biggest threat to peace in the world today.


To be honest, I did read the first half of that post of yours as being possibly more pointed then you intended it to be. It's not that I think you're trying to unfairly characterise muslims either, so please don't take that as an attack. I think the problem arises, and perhaps it is a kneejerk to some extent, when one single religion is outlined as being dangerous due to fundamentallist factions or branches or whatever. I've always viewed that situation as being connected to a much broader history of problems and I often feel that history is being ignored or over simplified (not that I'm accusing you of doing this necessarily, I just mean in a more general sense).

I guess my attitude comes down to this. I would freely admit that the global proliferation of fundamentalist Islam has become a threat to the world relations, yet in my mind, it's part of a much bigger picture which includes other factors, both religious and political, as well as economic etc, to the extent where I feel it's a bit pointless to outline 'fundamentalist Islam' as an issue in itself due to the significance of the other, often over looked factors...if that makes sense.

Islam's problem is the Qu'ran, try reading it, it's full of excuses to kill.

Islam's problem is the Qu'ran, try reading it, it's full of excuses to kill.

worse than the old testament, where all the christian right gets it's ideas from?

worse than the old testament, where all the christian right gets it's ideas from?

In a way it is.

I think you have to treat each religion separately, I'm a great believer that some are worse than others. They're all bullshit but some are more prone to breed extremists because of the words at the very roots of the religion.

To be honest, I did read the first half of that post of yours as being possibly more pointed then you intended it to be. It's not that I think you're trying to unfairly characterise muslims either, so please don't take that as an attack. I think the problem arises, and perhaps it is a kneejerk to some extent, when one single religion is outlined as being dangerous due to fundamentallist factions or branches or whatever. I've always viewed that situation as being connected to a much broader history of problems and I often feel that history is being ignored or over simplified (not that I'm accusing you of doing this necessarily, I just mean in a more general sense).

I guess my attitude comes down to this. I would freely admit that the global proliferation of fundamentalist Islam has become a threat to the world relations, yet in my mind, it's part of a much bigger picture which includes other factors, both religious and political, as well as economic etc, to the extent where I feel it's a bit pointless to outline 'fundamentalist Islam' as an issue in itself due to the significance of the other, often over looked factors...if that makes sense.

I agree. It's just like it's ignorant of people to bring up the fact that almost all African nations continuously fail at creating a stable corruption-free government, but refuse to admit that hundreds of years of European colonialism may have a lot to do with it. Obviously, there are many events that have led to this problem (creation of state of Israel, poverty, discovery of oil, etc). That being said, I still think the comparison of the fundamentalist movement and the few bombing of abortion clinics is a lazy comparison. Just look at the numbers, they're not comparable. It'd be the same as comparing it to the environmentalists, since there have been a small number of ecoterrorist acts on Hummer dealerships.

Islam's problem is the Qu'ran, try reading it, it's full of excuses to kill.

Wow. This is not your forte, eh?

Change, hope, hope, change, hope change, change!

this email was forwarded to me by my conserative aunt in kentucky

she was dead serious


i sent everyone on her list a counteremail

Funny...I got the same email from a coworker and did the same thing, replying to all.

It said something in hers about checking it on snopes and "check for yourself!"

I replied with "I did check it out on snopes and it's all either completely false or exaggerated. Check for yourself (insert link)"

Then my aunt (my boss) forwarded me an email about how Barack refuses to say the pledge, showing the picture of him without his hand over his heart during the Star-Spangled Banner. I replied all to that one as well, ending my email with "People who send these things on really should be more informed." and she replied with: Well I think he's an idiot anyway. So I responded simply saying, regardless of what you think of him, the information in the email you're spreading is still false.

She shut up and hasn't tried to talk politics with me since. Thank god.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WnL9HRLNxIA&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WnL9HRLNxIA&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

I'd have to agree with your girlfriend's mother; you do seem kinda ignorant. There has not been a single death in an abortion clinic-related attack since 1998. How many suicide bomb-related deaths have there been since 1998? C'mon, I understand that you want to paint the "all religions have their extremists. they're all exactly the same. let's all hold hands" picture, and I applaud you for it. But the fact of the matter is that the comparison between the two is way off.

I work in a company that is owned by a man of Iranian descent, and there is a very large percentage of Muslim employees working here (who are all, from what i've seen, perfectly reasonable and peace-loving people). But until a Christian wacko flies a plane into a building, or you see a failed assassination attempt on a CARTOONIST because he had the audacity to make a comic depicting their prophet with a bomb strapped to him; there will be people who lump all muslims together in the same group as the extremists. Fundamentalist Islam is a scary thing because their are actual Governments in this world built around it principles.

There may not have been any deaths since 1998 but these facts scare the living shit out of me:

Acts of violence against abortion clinics and their employees have been carried out across the United States throughout the 1980s and 1990s.
There were 1,700 acts of violence against abortion providers between 1977 and 1994, with four people killed in 1994 and one in 1993, according to statistics from the National Abortion Federation. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has logged 167 attacks against abortion clinics over the past 15 years.
<b>In 1984, there were 18 bombings against abortion clinics</b>. In 1993, there were 78 death threats aimed at clinic employees. And, in 1996, bombings, threats and harassment affected about one-third of U.S. abortion clinics.

...does that sound normal to you? Also, I just found this article (http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=25&sid=819094) talking about a man who's attempt to blow up a clinic with a pipe bomb failed...in 2006.

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this is funnier
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>> Who is Barack Obama?
>>
>> Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born
>> in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM
from
>> Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHIEST from Wichita,
>> Kansas.
>>
>> Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. When Obama was two
>> years old, his parents divorced. His father returned to Kenya. His
>> mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia.
>> When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia.
Obama
>> attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta. He also spent two y ears in a
>> Catholic school.
>>
>> Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He
is
>> quick to point out that, "He was once a Muslim, but that he also
>> attended Catholic school."
>>
>> Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that
>> Obama's introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this
>> influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama
>> returned to Kenya soon after the divorce, and never again had any
>> direct influence over his son's education.
>>
>> Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham,
>> introduced his, stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi
>> school in Jakarta. Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is
followed
>> by the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the
western
>> world. Since it is politically expedient to be a CHRI STIAN when
>> seeking Major public office in the United States, Barack Hussein
Obama
>> hasm joined the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay
his
>> Muslim background.
>>
>>
>>
>> ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he DID NOT use
>> the Holy Bible, but instead the Kuran (Their equivalency to our
Bible,
>> but very different beliefs)
>>
>> Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential
>> candidacy. The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US
from
>> the inside out, what better way to start than at the highest level -
>> through the President of the United States, one of their own!!!!
>>
>> Please forward to everyone you know. Would you want this man
leading
>> our country?...... NOT ME!!
>>
>> If you do not ever forward anything else, please forward this to all
>> your contacts.........this is very scary to think of what lies ahead
>> of us here in our own United States........ better heed this and
pray
>> about it and share it.
>> THIS DEFINITELY WARRANTS LOOKING INTO. THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED,
"ONE
>> NATION UNDER GOD". ALMIGHTY GOD, NOT THE GOD OF THE KORAN.
>>
>> We checked this out on " snopes.com". It is factual. Check for
>> yourself.
>>
>>


http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

this is funnier
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PGeu_4Ekx-o&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PGeu_4Ekx-o&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

List Hilliary's 'legislative accomplishments" in the short time she has been senator.

Funny...I got the same email from a coworker and did the same thing, replying to all.

It said something in hers about checking it on snopes and "check for yourself!"

I replied with "I did check it out on snopes and it's all either completely false or exaggerated. Check for yourself (insert link)"

Then my aunt (my boss) forwarded me an email about how Barack refuses to say the pledge, showing the picture of him without his hand over his heart during the Star-Spangled Banner. I replied all to that one as well, ending my email with "People who send these things on really should be more informed." and she replied with: Well I think he's an idiot anyway. So I responded simply saying, regardless of what you think of him, the information in the email you're spreading is still false.

She shut up and hasn't tried to talk politics with me since. Thank god.

:cheers:

List Hilliary's 'legislative accomplishments" in the short time she has been senator.

Hillary is lucky she's running against the only Democrat with less experience than she has.

Hillary is lucky she's running against the only Democrat with less experience than she has.

lol.:)

Hillary is lucky she's running against the only Democrat with less experience than she has.

and getting rolled over

.

He's not an atheist? I'm disappointed.
I don't care either way.

And really, the middle-aged "omg I send chain letters, I'm so cool" retards who get off on this shit would never vote for someone like Obama anyway. It's not even worth trying to argue with these people. 50 years from now they will be laughed at, along with everything else that sucks about our society today (e.g. fundamentalists)

Obama, An empty eloquent deceiving call for change while promoting a tired failed liberal philosophy.

HI TCHOCKY!

http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/shared-blogs/austin/longhorns/upload/2008/02/obama_hooks_em/Obama%202008.jpg
http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/shared-blogs/austin/longhorns/upload/2008/02/obama_hooks_em/Obama%202008-3.jpg
http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/shared-blogs/austin/longhorns/upload/2008/02/obama_hooks_em/Obama%202008-1.jpg
http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/shared-blogs/austin/longhorns/upload/2008/02/obama_hooks_em/klw%20obama%20UT%2007.jpg
http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/shared-blogs/austin/longhorns/upload/2008/02/obama_hooks_em/klw%20obama%20UT%2004.jpg

Obama, An empty eloquent deceiving call for change while promoting a tired failed liberal philosophy.

I'll kill you.

wonderful insight, please tell us more

where are those pcitures from? did you take those?

<img src="http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/shared-blogs/austin/longhorns/upload/2008/02/obama_hooks_em/Obama%202008-1.jpg">

"They spinnin' nigga they spinnin'!"