View Full Version : Massive Machina Analysis Undertaking Underway - Req Help


Nachtkabarett
01-09-2008, 04:38 PM
Greetings,

My name is Brad Jaeger and Im writing on behalf of The Nachtkabarett, coming to seek your help.

While the website www.nachtkabarett.com was primarily created in analyzing the artistic, occult and esoteric roots of Marilyn Manson, with its great popularity and reputation, we have begun to branch out to other bands which display covert or occult influences. The first two have been NIN and Coil, both of which will continue to grow in subsequent updates.

But that is not why Im here.

I am currently working on a Smashing Pumpkins article surrounding the highly occult, alchemical and otherwise esoteric imagery which was adopted during the Machina Era. The article is already massive, but Im not quite satisfied in publishing it quite yet.

Im here for your help in providing me with source materials and resources which could be hosted on the site for archival, analytical and expository purposes.

What the article comprises of:

- Plate by plate analysis of the alchemical drawings featured on the cover art and within the booklet

- An archival, analysis and breakdown of the hidden websites and flash files which existed at the time. As of this moment, I know of Black Wings over the World, I of the Radio, Machines of God, Panopticon, Smash the System and Paracell Corporation

- Thorough explanation of how and why Billy Corgan used the following allusions during Machina: The Vacuum of Infinite Space Encompassing, The Alchemical Treatise, The Septegram, Solomon the King, The Classical Planets, Hindu Deism, 33, Yin Yang and Tao, The Pentacles of Mercury, Horus, Isis, Osiris, Maat (and a host of other gods), Aleister Crowley, and so very much more. Most of this section is already complete and spans well over a dozen pages in length.

- A detailed comparison of Marilyn Mansons works Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood to that of The Smashing Pumpkins Machina (Holy Wood and Machina coming out in relatively the same time period), with both bands literally, for the most part, using probably 80% of the same alchemical and esoteric references and imagery, probably fostered by their contact with each other (and occasional performance together, such as when Manson and Twiggy joined The Smashing Pumpkins in performing Eye)

Now that you know whats being created, heres what Im looking for:

- .Swfs, images, videos, or any files pertaining to any of the hidden websites which were abundant at this time. I have portions from all of the sites that I know of, but I feel this is probably not all there is to be had

- Any photos of interest, be they promotional, live, or otherwise, which are likely of some significance (so long as they are circa the Machina era)

- Comments or quotations from the band pertaining to Glass and the Machines of God, or Machina itself

- Any source materials, interviews, or anything of relevance. If in doubt, please send it, and Ill source you appropriately in the article

Due to the length of the article, it probably will not be published for another 1-3 months, though that may be subject to change depending on how much materials we are provided with. Obviously, the more I have to work with, the easier my job will be and the sooner it will be hosted for all to examine, learn from, and (hopefully) enjoy. Those who assist in providing these materials will be given full recognition for their assistance. All assistance will not go unnoted or unlisted fans deserve the credit where credit is due.

My email is Brad.Jaeger@gmail.com dont be shy

If you have any further comments or questions, feel free to post them here.

smashkin33
01-09-2008, 04:39 PM
message the member here, T&T. serious.
he's done a lot of work on the machina mystery.

redbull
01-09-2008, 04:40 PM
HE LOOKS INTO HIS GAPING ASSHOLE

smashkin33
01-09-2008, 04:42 PM
hi redbull. if you were mod, how would you improve my experience here?
serious question- feel free to answer like a politian.

exactlythesame
01-09-2008, 04:43 PM
"The Vacuum of Infinite Space Encompassing, The Alchemical Treatise, The Septegram, Solomon the King, The Classical Planets, Hindu Deism . . . Yin Yang and Tao, The Pentacles of . . . Horus, Isis, Osiris, Ma’at (and a host of other gods), Aleister Crowley"

Cite these references and I might help.

Otherwise, I'll just say that Corgan included much of this kind of imagery because it had a mystic and smart feel to it. It's a common sentiment on this board that much of MACHINA's 'concept' was poorly conceived and even more poorly executed.

exactlythesame
01-09-2008, 04:44 PM
message the member here, T&T. serious.
he's done a lot of work on the machina mystery.

I've done more, I just haven't touted it like I'm some Professor of Pumpkinland.

tcm
01-09-2008, 04:46 PM
oho!

smashkin33
01-09-2008, 04:47 PM
he just came to the front of my mine first :blush:

redbull
01-09-2008, 04:47 PM
hi redbull. if you were mod, how would you improve my experience here?
serious question- feel free to answer like a politian.
Tell me your issues and I will tell you how I will fix them

i_adore_adore
01-09-2008, 04:50 PM
I don't know whether I admire people who dissect this machina mystery or whether I should giggle at them. Either way, I'm sorry I can't really help. Best of luck.

smashkin33
01-09-2008, 04:50 PM
i was just speaking generally.
would you close threads with good content that also included "chit chat" ?

Nachtkabarett
01-09-2008, 04:53 PM
"The Vacuum of Infinite Space Encompassing, The Alchemical Treatise, The Septegram, Solomon the King, The Classical Planets, Hindu Deism . . . Yin Yang and Tao, The Pentacles of . . . Horus, Isis, Osiris, Ma’at (and a host of other gods), Aleister Crowley"

Cite these references and I might help.

Otherwise, I'll just say that Corgan included much of this kind of imagery because it had a mystic and smart feel to it. It's a common sentiment on this board that much of MACHINA's 'concept' was poorly conceived and even more poorly executed.

Cite them? The symbols are readily apparent if you're familiar with them. It's just a matter of recognizing the connections. Such as images of Lucifer on the Black Wings over the World website being taken from Gustav Dore illustrations made for Paradise lost, or the Homunculus which is in the plate 'The Soul as Living Proof', which illustrates the creation of the divine alchemical mixture, reflecting transcendence in the alchemist who bore together the base elements.

Believe me, I'm not pulling these out of my ass, and Corgan wasn't either. Most of the symbols used are directly correlated to the same themes of transformation, transcendence, rebirth, and alchemy, that he would have had to make dozens and dozens of accidental connections if he truly did not know what he was doing.

Edit: All of the references are directly shown their citations in the article. Nothing is presented as fact without the proof to back it up. We're largely against baseless analysis.

exactlythesame
01-09-2008, 04:56 PM
search engine > transformation, transcendence, rebirth, alchemy

copy > paste

Nachtkabarett
01-09-2008, 05:00 PM
search engine > transformation, transcendence, rebirth, alchemy

copy > paste

Given the Nachtkabarett has provided the web with dozens and dozens of writings on Alchemy, rebirth and transcendence, a great deal of the search results would be our own writings or dillutions there of. So your post is appreciated, but not helpful, sorry.

All I'm looking for is other interested parties who would like to see a breakdown of the numerous esoteric and otherwise occult influences present within Machina, in logical, conclusive, expository writing.

I'm thankful for any help that is provided. The article will go ahead, with or without aid in materials. It just makes my job infinitely more tedious along the way ;)

exactlythesame
01-09-2008, 05:04 PM
I just find it hard to believe that there's anything really meaningful in MACHINA's message, and if there is, it's so incredibly vague that 99% percent of the people who have listened to the album are uninterested. I suppose I respect what you're doing, but help is going to be hard to find.

Nachtkabarett
01-09-2008, 05:08 PM
I just find it hard to believe that there's anything really meaningful in MACHINA's message, and if there is, it's so incredibly vague that 99% percent of the people who have listened to the album are uninterested. I suppose I respect what you're doing, but help is going to be hard to find.

Our work is geared towards that 1% who is interested in looking deeper. Obviously we don't want to subject our views on uninterested individuals, but rather just provide a site in which those who are interested and curious about all the things that were otherwise unfamiliar or unknown to them, can learn about how and why the symbols and imagery was employed in the manner in which it was.

I understand help will be hard to find. And if I even receive only a few emails with something relevant, it'll still be worth it. I don't even require that the individual knows what it is they have, so long as they send it along so that we may do the nitty gritty of uncovering it for the rest of the Smashing Pumpkins populace.

redbull
01-09-2008, 05:09 PM
Our work is geared towards that 1% who is interested in looking deeper. Obviously we don't want to subject our views on uninterested individuals, but rather just provide a site in which those who are interested and curious about all the things that were otherwise unfamiliar or unknown to them, can learn about how and why the symbols and imagery was employed in the manner in which it was.

I understand help will be hard to find. And if I even receive only a few emails with something relevant, it'll still be worth it. I don't even require that the individual knows what it is they have, so long as they send it along so that we may do the nitty gritty of uncovering it for the rest of the Smashing Pumpkins populace.

the "rest of the Smashing Pumpkins populace" wished Machina had never happened.

exactlythesame
01-09-2008, 05:11 PM
Our work is geared towards that 1% who is interested in looking deeper. Obviously we don't want to subject our views on uninterested individuals, but rather just provide a site in which those who are interested and curious about all the things that were otherwise unfamiliar or unknown to them, can learn about how and why the symbols and imagery was employed in the manner in which it was.

I understand help will be hard to find. And if I even receive only a few emails with something relevant, it'll still be worth it. I don't even require that the individual knows what it is they have, so long as they send it along so that we may do the nitty gritty of uncovering it for the rest of the Smashing Pumpkins populace.

Are you familiar with the Tetragrammaton, by any chance?

Nachtkabarett
01-09-2008, 05:12 PM
the "rest of the Smashing Pumpkins populace" wished Machina had never happened.

I'm not concerned with the popular opinion of the album. It is irrelevant to what we're doing. :)

T&T
01-09-2008, 05:14 PM
my work wouldn't be of any help to Nachtkabarett
he wants concise clear analysis
my work has only been towards more mystery

I enjoy manson for these wordly "fact" facets, but i like my billy unaccessibly otherworldly & divine
the machina occult symbolism is a 2D attempt at explaining the multi-album concepts/religion/temple/ that billy wrote for himself & his fans...



Love your site BTW



i've got some computer virus right now and can't access google
but as soon as i've got it resolved i'll send you stuff.

Nachtkabarett
01-09-2008, 05:17 PM
Are you familiar with the Tetragrammaton, by any chance?

Absolutely. We have articles written on it already from years ago, when Manson employed its use during Antichrist Svperstar.

And I was a particularly odd kid who has spent a great deal of his reading time invested in such obscure subjects.

The Tetragrammaton will come into play with the SP too.

exactlythesame
01-09-2008, 05:21 PM
It's particularly pertinent to MACHINA's themes of divinity and communication with the supernatural, being the Hebrew name of God. I'm sure you've already noticed it's presence on the album cover art within the mystic circle. Obscure and possibly inconsequential, but I guess that's what you're looking for.

Nachtkabarett
01-09-2008, 05:22 PM
my work wouldn't be of any help to Nachtkabarett
he wants concise clear analysis
my work has only been towards more mystery

I enjoy manson for these wordly "fact" facets, but i like my billy unaccessibly otherworldly & divine
the machina occult symbolism is a 2D attempt at explaining the multi-album concepts/religion/temple/ that billy wrote for himself & his fans...



Love your site BTW



i've got some computer virus right now and can't access google
but as soon as i've got it resolved i'll send you stuff.

Much obliged. And thanks for the compliments. It has been a passion that Nick and I have shared for years.

We're sensitive to trying not to ruin the overall ethos that one gets from all of the SP's artwork. While the site is expository and deconstructive, we try to stress that we're merely trying to make people more familiar with the symbols and terminology so that they may undergo their own process of learning and enlightenment and hopefully gain a greater appreciation for the complexity and integrity of their work.

The whole is certainly more than the sum of its parts and we respect that.

Nachtkabarett
01-09-2008, 05:26 PM
It's particularly pertinent to MACHINA's themes of divinity and communication with the supernatural, being the Hebrew name of God. I'm sure you've already noticed it's presence on the album cover art within the mystic circle. Obscure and possibly inconsequential, but I guess that's what you're looking for.

Indeed. That's generally one summation I had made as well. Indeed, the names of God are entirely derrivitive of the source name IHVH which is in the tetragrammaton, and serves as the basis for all future interpretations of how to write or pronounce the name of God.

Comments like these are highly appreciated. It allows me to witness perspective from fans long familiar with Machina, and either will illuminate me to something I may have over looked, or help validate something that has already been in the process of writing.

Spaldz
01-09-2008, 05:26 PM
Someone wrote a thesis on machina and posted it up here recently. It was pretty epic.

hcueva
01-09-2008, 06:36 PM
the "rest of the Smashing Pumpkins populace" wished Machina had never happened.

I wish you had never happened.

???
01-09-2008, 06:49 PM
i started this thread about a month ago- it concerns imagery of The Sephirothic Tree on the pumpkins' website around the machina era: http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=154389&highlight=inane

flyfire
01-09-2008, 06:53 PM
Someone wrote a thesis on machina and posted it up here recently. It was pretty epic.

here's that link
http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/machina/machina_thesis_adamware.pdf

mistle
01-09-2008, 06:58 PM
:rofl:



















































































































































































































































































































































:rofl:

mistle
01-09-2008, 06:59 PM
you know just because i rarely get the chance to feel justified in saying this to someone else

get a life

Thomas
01-09-2008, 07:09 PM
Come on haters, this is a good way to get rid of this machina mystery once and for all !
I'll PM you with some info and links, Nachtkabarett.

duovamp
01-09-2008, 07:33 PM
Greetings,

My name is Brad Jaeger and Im writing on behalf of The Nachtkabarett, coming to seek your help.

While the website www.nachtkabarett.com was primarily created in analyzing the artistic, occult and esoteric roots of Marilyn Manson, with its great popularity and reputation, we have begun to branch out to other bands which display covert or occult influences. The first two have been NIN and Coil, both of which will continue to grow in subsequent updates.

But that is not why Im here.

I am currently working on a Smashing Pumpkins article surrounding the highly occult, alchemical and otherwise esoteric imagery which was adopted during the Machina Era. The article is already massive, but Im not quite satisfied in publishing it quite yet.

Im here for your help in providing me with source materials and resources which could be hosted on the site for archival, analytical and expository purposes.

What the article comprises of:

- Plate by plate analysis of the alchemical drawings featured on the cover art and within the booklet

- An archival, analysis and breakdown of the hidden websites and flash files which existed at the time. As of this moment, I know of Black Wings over the World, I of the Radio, Machines of God, Panopticon, Smash the System and Paracell Corporation

- Thorough explanation of how and why Billy Corgan used the following allusions during Machina: The Vacuum of Infinite Space Encompassing, The Alchemical Treatise, The Septegram, Solomon the King, The Classical Planets, Hindu Deism, 33, Yin Yang and Tao, The Pentacles of Mercury, Horus, Isis, Osiris, Maat (and a host of other gods), Aleister Crowley, and so very much more. Most of this section is already complete and spans well over a dozen pages in length.

- A detailed comparison of Marilyn Mansons works Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood to that of The Smashing Pumpkins Machina (Holy Wood and Machina coming out in relatively the same time period), with both bands literally, for the most part, using probably 80% of the same alchemical and esoteric references and imagery, probably fostered by their contact with each other (and occasional performance together, such as when Manson and Twiggy joined The Smashing Pumpkins in performing Eye)

Now that you know whats being created, heres what Im looking for:

- .Swfs, images, videos, or any files pertaining to any of the hidden websites which were abundant at this time. I have portions from all of the sites that I know of, but I feel this is probably not all there is to be had

- Any photos of interest, be they promotional, live, or otherwise, which are likely of some significance (so long as they are circa the Machina era)

- Comments or quotations from the band pertaining to Glass and the Machines of God, or Machina itself

- Any source materials, interviews, or anything of relevance. If in doubt, please send it, and Ill source you appropriately in the article

Due to the length of the article, it probably will not be published for another 1-3 months, though that may be subject to change depending on how much materials we are provided with. Obviously, the more I have to work with, the easier my job will be and the sooner it will be hosted for all to examine, learn from, and (hopefully) enjoy. Those who assist in providing these materials will be given full recognition for their assistance. All assistance will not go unnoted or unlisted fans deserve the credit where credit is due.

My email is Brad.Jaeger@gmail.com dont be shy

If you have any further comments or questions, feel free to post them here.

Billy Corgan found out who William Blake was and voila, Machina was born.

Nachtkabarett
01-09-2008, 10:24 PM
Thank you kindly to all those who have taken this seriously and either posted information within this thread, or have emailed me various items already. Adam Ware's Machina thesis has thus far been interesting in its own right, and I'm admiring the parallels he draws to Joesph Cambell's hero mythology.

Every bit helps and I will continue to monitor this thread and my email throughout the remainder of the entire writing process. I'll also be sure to reply to all emails that come my way, and when the day comes that the article is completed, I will notify all those of whom I've cited within the work and ask under what name or alias you'd like to be credited as.

I'll also make sure to let all of you know when the article has launched. Don't wait on the edge of your seats though, I have no intention of sacrificing the quality of the article by rushing. I'm a methodical worker, but it tends to reflect in the final product :p

Once again, thanks to everyone that has helped thus far. It's truly appreciated.

PS: A nice big 'fuck you' to the dicks in this thread ;)

EDIT: Thankfully a great deal of this material used in Machina The Nachtkabarett has already exhaustively covered, as was employed by Marilyn Manson in Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood. It whittles down my work by a good 75%.

Thomas
01-09-2008, 10:50 PM
PARADOXA EMBLEMATA
<img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/images/smilies/banana.gif" WIDTH=150 HEIGHT=150></img>

Cool As Ice Cream
01-10-2008, 02:21 AM
http://www.rspaa.org/rspaa/Miscellaneous/www.smashingpumpkins.com/

megalomano
01-10-2008, 03:06 AM
Nachtkabarett, can i have a copy of your work when you finish??

i really like it to read it, seriosly.

TheMilstead
01-10-2008, 03:43 AM
For the record, I've been an avid reader of this guy's site. Great work with all the Manson stuff. But I honestly don't think the Machina mystery is something worth looking into. Corgan isn't as deep as he appears to be.

Cheers.

Thomas
01-10-2008, 03:56 AM
Just found this : http://www.gatmog.tk/

http://www.rspaa.org/rspaa/Miscellaneous/www.smashingpumpkins.com/

omg, nice Everlasting Gaze remix on glassintro.swf... any mp3 of this one ?
It would be perfect for a d34th f0rm abuuv!!1 sequel... :rolleyes:

???
01-10-2008, 04:37 AM
symbolism, alchemy and stuff are really intriguing and fun to look into but whereas marilyn has overtly used it to convey secret messages and so on, in billy's case with machina its used in a very tokenistic, unconnected manner to the content of the album and is purely to dress things up and further enhance the timeless, arcane feel of machina. i suppose you could say all the symbolism is, more than anything, a vague visual allegory to describe the complexity of the feelings presented in machina, and the only "secret code" therein is a poignant, perhaps indecipherable message of platonic love and hope in difficult times.

Forgotten Child
01-10-2008, 08:26 AM
unconnected manner to the content of the album

"the fickle fascination of an everlasting god"

"i feel as though i am reborn in my mind
recast as child and mystic sage"

"you're all a part of me now"

"it's down in the heat with the broken numbers"

"heavy metal"

"for every chemical
you trade a piece of your soul
with no return"

"and to the center of the earth
as if written in
and dna is reaching out
to your frequency"

"white labs are cooking
up the silver ghost"

"throw away your four leafed clovers"

"before the rites of spring
come to mean all things"

TheMilstead
01-10-2008, 07:00 PM
symbolism, alchemy and stuff are really intriguing and fun to look into but whereas marilyn has overtly used it to convey secret messages and so on, in billy's case with machina its used in a very tokenistic, unconnected manner to the content of the album and is purely to dress things up and further enhance the timeless, arcane feel of machina. i suppose you could say all the symbolism is, more than anything, a vague visual allegory to describe the complexity of the feelings presented in machina, and the only "secret code" therein is a poignant, perhaps indecipherable message of platonic love and hope in difficult times.

I love how Isle gets so passionate about his opinions.

???
01-10-2008, 07:18 PM
"the fickle fascination of an everlasting god"

"i feel as though i am reborn in my mind
recast as child and mystic sage"

"you're all a part of me now"

"it's down in the heat with the broken numbers"

"heavy metal"

"for every chemical
you trade a piece of your soul
with no return"

"and to the center of the earth
as if written in
and dna is reaching out
to your frequency"

"white labs are cooking
up the silver ghost"

"throw away your four leafed clovers"

"before the rites of spring
come to mean all things"

those quotes have very little relation to the visual symbolism of the album. there's a difference between poetic imagery in lyrics and mystic cryptology in the artwork.

Forgotten Child
01-10-2008, 09:32 PM
those quotes have very little relation to the visual symbolism of the album. there's a difference between poetic imagery in lyrics and mystic cryptology in the artwork.

Just because you can't understand the mystic cryptology in the artwork. :)

T&T
01-10-2008, 09:45 PM
and here i was approaching a conclusion that the point to the mystery was to enjoy "mystery".

Nachtkabarett
01-11-2008, 02:08 AM
I continue to actively monitor this thread and have received numerous emails and PM's already from interested members willing to lend what they know to the cause. Much obliged, all, I appreciate it.

I'll make sure to post here at least once every couple weeks (likely more often than that) to let everyone know what's currently being worked on, recent discoveries, and how progress is coming along.

Until then, thank you to everyone who is providing help, none of it goes unappreciated.

T&T
01-11-2008, 08:15 AM
http://pumpkins.webz.cz/images/billyschart.jpg
will this "chart" be analyzed?

mayday
01-11-2008, 01:36 PM
interesting... i wouldnt call it occult though. Spiritual yes. This will be an interesting read.

mayday
01-11-2008, 01:37 PM
the central theme is God of course and that we are all apart of God.

T&T has written pages on this and some of it is really great.

topleybird
01-11-2008, 05:54 PM
I wish someone had written a comprehensive article about Starla Dreams, who was just one of the completely out-of-their-minds people who were attracted to this album like a moth to the flame

As it is, I can find one mention of her by me, and one useless one on a shitty Angelfire page

But Nachtkabarett, I'd be interested to see if your analysis goes into audience reaction at all; I'm sure Marilyn Manson's use of the same basic images/ideas attracted quite a lot of yahoos as well, so you probably have a sense of what I mean

exactlythesame
01-12-2008, 08:50 AM
symbolism, alchemy and stuff are really intriguing and fun to look into but whereas marilyn has overtly used it to convey secret messages and so on, in billy's case with machina its used in a very tokenistic, unconnected manner to the content of the album and is purely to dress things up and further enhance the timeless, arcane feel of machina. i suppose you could say all the symbolism is, more than anything, a vague visual allegory to describe the complexity of the feelings presented in machina, and the only "secret code" therein is a poignant, perhaps indecipherable message of platonic love and hope in difficult times.

isle, you and i are two of a kind

Nachtkabarett
01-14-2008, 09:36 PM
Just a bit of an update, due to the tremendous amount of source materials I've been provided with, and the seemingly endless amount of material which I've already written, my partner (and site founder) Nick will be making a seperate website within a website for The Smashing Pumpkins, in order to cover the complexities of Machina (which was beginning to look pretty chunky and unappealing when all vomitted onto a single page).

Apart from Dore, Milton, Blake, 15th, 17th & 19th century alchemical texts, over a dozen Gods, several books and screenplays, Kaballah and the Sepirothic Tree of Life, Gnosticism and the Tao, the NK is discovering many more conclusive references, demonstrations and inspirations which went into Machina. As the content continues to multiply I'll fill you all in on the progress, as launch draws nearer to be subjected to your critical I of the mourning.

I'll talk to you soon, but til then,
For the love of all that is sacred and profane
I wish you happiness as you, like myself, wait for Gossamer.

- Brad

BurtSampson
01-14-2008, 09:43 PM
Back when I was into Manson, I really dug the Nachtkabarrett, so I'm looking forward to this. Also, after seeing that chart, I noticed that This Time isn't on there. Is it possible that This Time has no conceptual place on the album, and is instead a personal song?

mayday
01-14-2008, 09:50 PM
GATGC is the central song on Machina to understanding the album and the "mystery", imo

"Faith is the evidence of things not seen"

Azael
01-14-2008, 09:57 PM
Also, after seeing that chart, I noticed that This Time isn't on there. Is it possible that This Time has no conceptual place on the album, and is instead a personal song?

This Time was written in studio I think, probably after this chart was created.

ChristHimself!
01-15-2008, 04:08 AM
why do you spell antichrist superstar with a v

Warsaw
01-15-2008, 04:24 AM
...and drummer Jimmy Chamberlin, who came across like an old metalhead on the prowl for freaky chicks.