View Full Version : Billy: "Rap is fucking dead"


brillo998
01-07-2008, 12:14 PM
not quite sure where he gets his info from. rap is far from dead; its just dominated by shitty songs.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gWjCwGxXLQ0&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gWjCwGxXLQ0&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

nofix
01-07-2008, 12:44 PM
The context of his message is lost in the breif video. Let's not focus on this too much. You still have time to live. Maybe you can get a transcript of the complete transaction.

mayday
01-07-2008, 12:50 PM
there arent' alot of rap songs that i like but there are some. there is a lot of great R&B music out there now

gossamer1234
01-07-2008, 12:50 PM
sounded like sarcasm to me lol..

it's not like when the new SP album debuted, it was behind a rap album or anything...

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 12:51 PM
Rap has always sucked. I never cared for that "bling bling" "yo yo" type crap.

BABY_i
01-07-2008, 12:51 PM
This is what pisses me off about Bill, everything's shit except what he says isn't, meanwhile Zeitgeist release #17 sails down the charts to oblivion. At least he had balls when he said rock is dead (before returning to rock).

BABY_i
01-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Rap has always sucked. I never cared for that "bling bling" "yo yo" type crap.

I'd disagree,

The Roots
Eminem
2Pac
Dr Dre
Outkast

Plenty of bling there, but you take it with a pinch of salt

???
01-07-2008, 01:10 PM
At least he had balls when he said rock is dead (before returning to rock).


maybe this means he's gonna do a rap record now.

redbreegull
01-07-2008, 01:12 PM
Billy hates rap music. There is an interview out there somewhere where he talks about what a waste of time and energy he thinks it is. He also acknowledges that this attitude is very unpopular. I dunno, I kind of have to agree with him. In terms of musical credibility I find rap to be pretty indefensible. Or at least I have never heard any rap music that has struck me as anything more than base level word play set to an electronic beat and bass line.

???
01-07-2008, 01:19 PM
base level word play set to an electronic beat and bass line.

nothing wrong with the concept, but the problem is that it's just all been done now. billy said he thinks rap "values inherently negative things" and is degrading to women especially. i guess that's a fair comment but i think rap is still appealing to its fans because its sortof become an ongoing parody of itself. billy once described the Blues as being like "history's longest conversation" or something, and i guess you could say rap has developed a similar purpose.

Gossamer
01-07-2008, 01:28 PM
As much as I dislike rap, billy should check out the song "You Never Know" by Immortal Technique.

It might change his mind.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 01:30 PM
Rap is the lowest form of expression. It's just a bunch of people nagging and demanding respect using grammatical curiosities and broken English. I might be wrong but I thought the youth of the day listens to music to escape the constant nagging of parents, teachers, etc.

cork_soaker
01-07-2008, 01:43 PM
Rap is the lowest form of expression. It's just a bunch of people nagging and demanding respect using grammatical curiosities and broken English. I might be wrong but I thought the youth of the day listens to music to escape the constant nagging of parents, teachers, etc.

that's idiotic

Mayfuck
01-07-2008, 01:45 PM
so many rap albums in 2007 are better than zeitgeiset

RockLobster
01-07-2008, 01:45 PM
is zeitgesit a rap album?

RockLobster
01-07-2008, 01:46 PM
i think the plume solo is better than all of zeitgeist.

deathrockduck
01-07-2008, 03:04 PM
Rap is the lowest form of expression. It's just a bunch of people nagging and demanding respect using grammatical curiosities and broken English. I might be wrong but I thought the youth of the day listens to music to escape the constant nagging of parents, teachers, etc.

uh... are you intentionally stupid? or just by default?

there is plenty of artistic integrity left in hip-hop. it is still viable, just as much as your precious rock and roll.

just don't listen to the radio. just as rock radio plays nothing but stagnant horseshit built only to swallow dollars from idiot kids and complacent adults, hip-hop radio typically just does the same shit. unless you find a nice college or independent station, you're only going to hear anthems and party songs.

the mainstream is always boring.

oh and dude, you ARE wrong. the youth just listens to things to piss off their parents, not to escape from it.

deathrockduck
01-07-2008, 03:05 PM
nothing wrong with the concept, but the problem is that it's just all been done now. billy said he thinks rap "values inherently negative things" and is degrading to women especially. i guess that's a fair comment but i think rap is still appealing to its fans because its sortof become an ongoing parody of itself. billy once described the Blues as being like "history's longest conversation" or something, and i guess you could say rap has developed a similar purpose.

agreed. and billy really has no room to talk seeing as how he just released the most boring and creatively void album in his entire career.

sweetanthony
01-07-2008, 03:17 PM
agreed. and billy really has no room to talk seeing as how he just released the most boring and creatively void album in his entire career.

Ouch. So harsh and so true. But is he talking about "mainstream rap" or about Hip-Hop Culture? Real Hip-Hop and Underground Rap is nothing like whats on the radio (I think since I don't listen to "rap" radio anymore), but Billy should know that bands like the Roots and OutKast have put music out recently, right?

Charmbag
01-07-2008, 03:20 PM
rap doesn't have any inherent meaning. it's just a style, it can be filled with any kind of content. unfortunately repetitive uninspired club songs are really popular now, but look at what's popular in the rock genre. just as bleak.

Thomas
01-07-2008, 03:36 PM
Just take a look at the kind of comments you got on a 2pac music video on Youtube :

2pac-best rapper evaaaar
Thug Life
West Side 4life nigazzz
hit em up nigga the best songgggg ever made 2pac forever !!!!!!!!!!

:erm:

i_adore_adore
01-07-2008, 03:44 PM
The Beastie Boys own, ya'll.

arCHI
01-07-2008, 04:01 PM
Just take a look at the kind of comments you got on a 2pac music video on Youtube :

2pac-best rapper evaaaar
Thug Life
West Side 4life nigazzz
hit em up nigga the best songgggg ever made 2pac forever !!!!!!!!!!

:erm:

yeah but listen to Mayday....

talk show host
01-07-2008, 04:06 PM
yeah but listen to Mayday....

Holy fucking shit you genius!

There's some retarded stuff in this thread, not least of all that monumentally stupid coment by Billy, argh. Way not to appear like on old, out-dated dinosaur Bill. :rolleyes:

i_adore_adore
01-07-2008, 04:09 PM
don't say that.

hcueva
01-07-2008, 04:15 PM
The problem is not rap, it's rappers. Rappers never really intended to have artistic integrity. Take early Busta Rhymes, he's actually talented, he was bringing Jamaican elements and being so original and then he decided to suck, simply because he doesn't give two shits about an actual artistic career.

If Bob Marley had that little integrity, we'd be saying reggae sucks, but fortunately he had something in mind besides making millions and sticked to his guns to make something of actual historical importance.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 04:23 PM
that's idiotic

Interesting ad hominem reply, Mr. Soaker.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 04:23 PM
but look at what's popular in the rock genre. just as bleak.

No argument here.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 04:33 PM
uh... are you intentionally stupid? or just by default?

there is plenty of artistic integrity left in hip-hop. it is still viable, just as much as your precious rock and roll.


There seems to be an assumption in your response that I am referring to hip-hop and not rap. Or could it be that you are conflating the two genres as the same? There also seems to be an assumption that I believe that rock and roll is "viable" when in fact I believe it has gone down Tin Pan Alley a long time ago but progressively towards an extreme extent where the artists create in order to have clients, as opposed to having clients in order to create.

mccririck
01-07-2008, 04:34 PM
Billy is a fucking prick, like he knows what's going to be cool in the years ahead. He's just one of those arseholes with a big sphincter and he likes to blow shit out of it constantly and he thinks people will gobble it up.

tcm
01-07-2008, 04:46 PM
Interesting ad hominem reply, Mr. Soaker.

he said that's idiotic, not you're idiotic.

you idiotic fucking idiot motherfucker.

apetulantfrenzy
01-07-2008, 04:53 PM
Rap is the lowest form of expression. It's just a bunch of people nagging and demanding respect using grammatical curiosities and broken English. I might be wrong but I thought the youth of the day listens to music to escape the constant nagging of parents, teachers, etc.

Let me guess...you're white? And from the suburbs? Right.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 04:54 PM
he said that's idiotic, not you're idiotic.

you idiotic fucking idiot motherfucker.

The comment is implicitly ad hominem, while yours is explicitly ad hominem.

tcm
01-07-2008, 04:56 PM
nuh-uh. prove it.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 04:57 PM
Let me guess...you're white? And from the suburbs? Right.

Why should it matter?

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 04:58 PM
nuh-uh. prove it.

It's self-evident.

tcm
01-07-2008, 05:01 PM
apparently not. prove it.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:05 PM
apparently not. prove it.

I will invert this for you. In order for my claim to be false you would have to accept that "you idiotic fucking idiot motherfucker" is not a personal attack. Or in in terms of arrows, you would have to accept that up is down. ARROW'D!!

tcm
01-07-2008, 05:07 PM
i dunno WHAT you're talking about. strawman?

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:08 PM
i dunno WHAT you're talking about. strawman?

You said it, not me!

tcm
01-07-2008, 05:09 PM
sometimes up is down, though. non-euclidean geometry, ever heard of it?

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:12 PM
Another thing that grinds my gears about rap is the constant sampling of other songs with hackneyed overdubbed lyrics. All of a sudden "Good Times" becomes forever known as "Rapper's Delight" while "Kashmir" becomes remembered as "that puff daddy tune."

tcm
01-07-2008, 05:13 PM
nobody remembers that puff daddy tune you fucking idiot.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:13 PM
sometimes up is down, though.

But not today, baby.

Spaceboy88
01-07-2008, 05:14 PM
Look at the sales numbers. Rap is in a huge sales slump.

tcm
01-07-2008, 05:14 PM
what do you know about 'today', you seem to be stuck in i dunno whenever puff daddy was from, the 1990s.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:15 PM
Look at the sales numbers. Rap is in a huge sales slump.

It's probably because its market base has shifted into ringtones.

tcm
01-07-2008, 05:16 PM
go and fuck your self professor fucks.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:20 PM
go and fuck your self professor fucks.
Why can't we be friends?

apetulantfrenzy
01-07-2008, 05:21 PM
Another thing that grinds my gears about rap is the constant sampling of other songs with hackneyed overdubbed lyrics. All of a sudden "Good Times" becomes forever known as "Rapper's Delight" while "Kashmir" becomes remembered as "that puff daddy tune."

You clearly know nothing about hip hop and you should simply stop now before you make a bigger ass of yourself. Arguing that "broken english" or sampling makes rap bad music is like complaining that metal is too loud or that Bob Dylan should never have gone electric. It doesn't prove you have taste or knowledge of musicology, it only shows you're missing the point of the genre and the artistic style.

D.
01-07-2008, 05:23 PM
man this thread is horrible. i mean, there's been some stinkers on this board, but damn...

too many uninformed opinions to list

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:30 PM
You clearly know nothing about hip hop and you should simply stop now before you make a bigger ass of yourself. Arguing that "broken english" or sampling makes rap bad music is like complaining that metal is too loud or that Bob Dylan should never have gone electric. It doesn't prove you have taste or knowledge of musicology, it only shows you're missing the point of the genre and the artistic style.

No. I don't claim to know anything about rap, except that it's a lesser art form and its function as the Spalding Gray of crap. Perhaps you can enlighten me but I don't recognize styles of artistry as being characterized by the substitution of syllables with the term "yo." To be fair, there are some legitimately talented artists out there, but I have no sympathy for those who preach to the choir about "busting caps, hoes and bitches."

Mayfuck
01-07-2008, 05:31 PM
attn white people: stop discussing a black art form.

Mayfuck
01-07-2008, 05:32 PM
hmm time to remind the admins via PM that foxtrot should still be serving his banishment from these forums after spamming the trading board.

apetulantfrenzy
01-07-2008, 05:34 PM
No. I don't claim to know anything about rap, except that it's a lesser art form and its function as the Spalding Gray of crap. Perhaps you can enlighten me but I don't recognize styles of artistry as being characterized by the substitution of syllables with the term "yo." To be fair, there are some legitimately talented artists out there, but I have no sympathy for those who preach to the choir about "busting caps, hoes and bitches."

Pakula, ban this racist fuck please.

And screw you for talking down to Spalding Grey. But thanks for giving me the excuse to embed this shit:
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/v0iyLOIsyxs&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/v0iyLOIsyxs&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:36 PM
Would it be acceptable to say, "attn black people: stop discussing a white art form"?

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:37 PM
Pakula, ban this racist fuck please.


How is anything I've said racist at all? Rap is not exclusive to any particular "race" as far as I know.

Mayfuck
01-07-2008, 05:39 PM
admins where are you

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:40 PM
admins where are you

Answer that question, Mayfuck.

apetulantfrenzy
01-07-2008, 05:41 PM
How is anything I've said racist at all? Rap is not exclusive to any particular "race" as far as I know.

It's called context reading, you pompous numbskull.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 05:43 PM
It's called context reading, you pompous numbskull.

Context of what? If you're going to accuse others of being racist, then you best be sure to support your claims. Pointing to my dislike of rap music simply does not cut it.

D.
01-07-2008, 05:52 PM
Rap is not exclusive to any particular "race" as far as I know.
the good kind is.

D.
01-07-2008, 05:53 PM
dammit, i just participated in this unholy abortion

apetulantfrenzy
01-07-2008, 05:55 PM
Context of what? If you're going to accuse others of being racist, then you best be sure to support your claims.

This will be the last amount of energy I spend on this stupid debate, but you want some context?

that "bling bling" "yo yo" type crap.
lowest form of expression
grammatical curiosities and broken English
lesser art form
substitution of syllables with the term "yo."

Yeah, that = pretty good evidence for a closed mind, considering you call an art form closely linked to the black experience in America as the "lowest form of expression." Christ. Have a nice day.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 06:05 PM
Yeah, that = pretty good evidence for a closed mind, considering you call an art form closely linked to the black experience in America as the "lowest form of expression." Christ. Have a nice day.

Again, you are assuming that all of those attributes are exclusive to black people. Not all black people are rappers, not all rappers are black people. What does my dislike of rap music have to do with black people or race? Not a goddamn thing.

Mayfuck
01-07-2008, 06:10 PM
if the admins wont shut this thread down then i will

ravenguy2000
01-07-2008, 06:16 PM
i can't believe i'm even posting in here but didn't billy say he liked missy elliot

ravenguy2000
01-07-2008, 06:18 PM
btw stop quoting him, i've had him on ignore since the day before he registered

apetulantfrenzy
01-07-2008, 06:18 PM
Not a bad idea, done

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 06:23 PM
I love it when politically correct people are able to dole out what people are able to talk about (see fascism), but decline from commenting the moment they notice the errs in their own contradictions.

Mayfuck
01-07-2008, 06:24 PM
Not a bad idea, done

<HJh>

Patuquitos
01-07-2008, 08:22 PM
I'd just like to say that 95% of rap hits rely on a chorus that is nothing but a sample/cover of a former pop hit.

It's not a bad genre. It's just fucking limited by definition. And most of rappers are wannabe macho thugs (at least that's how they depict themselves in videos).

Mr. Mister
01-07-2008, 08:31 PM
Rap is a business. Pop-punk is a business. Grunge was a business. It's called the music business. Realize as many have said/implied before that "radio rap" today is no more representative of "real rap" as an art than any other "popular" acts were representative of their respective artistic cores. The sad/obvious part is that the record companies are only interested in the bling/thug rap videos becuase that's what they think will sell units. Good rap like good rock, techno or whatever comes straight from the vein. Also, anyone who still doesn't believe that rap can "hit the spot" should seek out some MCs/rappers who are backed by a live band.

Mayfuck
01-07-2008, 08:39 PM
still not a single post with any insight whatsoever.

Ugly
01-07-2008, 08:42 PM
TEG rant is about as close to rap as The Pumpkins will get. When they start playing it again, billy should wear a backards baseball cap for that part.

hcueva
01-07-2008, 09:49 PM
Oh, we're not racist. I certainly love jazz and reggae, also regarded as "black music".

Rap is just a piece of retarded crap, that's all.

mellon_c0llie
01-07-2008, 10:10 PM
I'd just like to say that 95% of rap hits rely on a chorus that is nothing but a sample/cover of a former pop hit.

It's not a bad genre. It's just fucking limited by definition. And most of rappers are wannabe macho thugs (at least that's how they depict themselves in videos).

Well and then look at all the emotive kids who think they're facing something terrible in their lives, those same kids who make modern rock music. I canít relate to that music because itís simply not sincere. Most of the music industry is full of people posturing. They just want to be cool or make money. Anytime a truly influential person comes along, there will always be a hundred imitators. The sad thing is that the imitators are being imitated. The romantic period in Art was really about people copying the renaissance period, without examining nature and making real observations. A true innovator is hard to find.

End of essay.

Professor Fox
01-07-2008, 10:14 PM
still not a single post with any insight whatsoever.

...and your contribution...

attn white people: stop discussing a black art form.

my response...

Would it be acceptable to say, "attn black people: stop discussing a white art form"?

your response to this question is still outstanding, Mr. Mayfuck.

Sarcastic Smile
01-07-2008, 11:25 PM
<a href="http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBob3RvcG94LmNvbQ==" target="_blank"><img src="http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k289/1millionicons/Music/thmusicwas.jpg" border="0" alt="iconpox.net - Tons of free cool icons!"></a>

apetulantfrenzy
01-07-2008, 11:38 PM
i actually think you're the one being racist. you assume he is saying negative things about blacks, because YOU have those ideas about blacks.

Whatever, he still doesn't know shit about rap or hip hop and neither do you.

Pretzel Logic
01-07-2008, 11:44 PM
You clearly know nothing about hip hop and you should simply stop now before you make a bigger ass of yourself. Arguing that "broken english" or sampling makes rap bad music is like complaining that metal is too loud or that Bob Dylan should never have gone electric. It doesn't prove you have taste or knowledge of musicology, it only shows you're missing the point of the genre and the artistic style.

Please shut up. Please. Shut up.

Charmbag
01-08-2008, 12:01 AM
attn white people: stop discussing a black art form.
so tell me Julio what's a mexican doing on a pumpkins board?

Charmbag
01-08-2008, 12:03 AM
ps I hate you

Pretzel Logic
01-08-2008, 12:06 AM
so tell me Julio what's a mexican doing on a pumpkins board?

burn sauce

you know...because Mayfuck loves you

redbreegull
01-08-2008, 12:25 AM
Well all I can really say is that even if I do not necessarily like it, I can find within myself a great appreciation and respect for most forms of music. To the point where if I hear something of a genre alien to me I will almost certainly listen to it just to gain a better understanding of it. Rap simply does not apply here to me though. I can find no artistic value in it, I can find no entertainment value in it, it seems to me to be totally uninspired and talentless. Perhaps there are rap acts out there that would spark some interest within me, but I have yet to hear in my lifetime, anything closer to rap than Rage Against the Machine that I could tolerate on any level.

Mayfuck
01-08-2008, 12:37 AM
<df>

Frankenstein
01-08-2008, 12:39 AM
<df>

\

Professor Fox
01-08-2008, 12:42 AM
Well all I can really say is that even if I do not necessarily like it, I can find within myself a great appreciation and respect for most forms of music. To the point where if I hear something of a genre alien to me I will almost certainly listen to it just to gain a better understanding of it. Rap simply does not apply here to me though. I can find no artistic value in it, I can find no entertainment value in it, it seems to me to be totally uninspired and talentless. Perhaps there are rap acts out there that would spark some interest within me, but I have yet to hear in my lifetime, anything closer to rap than Rage Against the Machine that I could tolerate on any level.

That pretty much sums up how I feel.

We found something to agree on.


Excellent. I agree on the beasties too.

Frankenstein
01-08-2008, 12:46 AM
mayfuck listens to Guerilla Radio on the 405

chrisothoulo
01-08-2008, 01:37 AM
I'd disagree,

The Roots
Eminem
2Pac
Dr Dre
Outkast

Plenty of bling there, but you take it with a pinch of salt

Eminem? lol

stumpycat
01-08-2008, 01:52 AM
What many people seem to be doing on here is conflating their own personal preferences and opinions of a particular genre/style with its actual artistic merit (or lack thereof.) While I do not care for most rap at all, I am not so uninformed or ignorant of the genre to insist that the art form is inherently inferior and incapable of legitimate artistic merit merely because its mainstream form is currently populated with the same dirge as even the mainstream rock scene (albeit in a different context.) It would be completely ignorant to condemn an entire art form based on those who perform it rather badly--and that would go for any art form in any medium.

It is perfectly legitimate and acceptable that "Professor" Fox would disdain rap. Whatever. I'm sure a lot of people who prefer rock music would feel this way, because it is inherently unappealing to them--no matter how well conceived. I object to the ethos espoused in much of hip hop and rap. But I'm not so fucking ignorant as to condemn the genre simply due to those who are presumed to "represent" it. How, in fact, is a garage band of highschool boys sloppily banging out power cords any more "inherently" worthwhile or requiring of talent than a rapper whose words actually spin a uniquely poetic reflection of his life and experience, even while going largely unnoticed by the "bling" and machismo of mainstream acts? A growing number of more underground hiphop artists themselves decry the increasingly bastardized and disingenuous nature of the type of message and lifestyle reflected in the mainstream. And even at its most basic, "rap" is merely a style of vocal delivery. One could presumably "rap" over a live symphony, if that is the artistic effect one was trying to achieve. The case could be made that a musically well-respected "poet of his time", Bob Dillion, incorporated some rather interesting modes of vocal delivery of great lyrical density--especially considering he doesn't even sing the lines so much as, well--"rap" them.

Also, if you are so disdainful of these "lower" art forms, Mr. Fox, what in the fuck are you doing on the messageboard on a mainstream rock band anyway? Isn't this kind of primal shit a bit low-brow for your artistically heightened standards?

2uantuM
01-08-2008, 01:59 AM
What many people seem to be doing on here is conflating their own personal preferences and opinions of a particular genre/style with its actual artistic merit (or lack thereof.) While I do not care for most rap at all, I am not so uninformed or ignorant of the genre to insist that the art form is inherently inferior and incapable of legitimate artistic merit merely because its mainstream form is currently populated with the same dirge as even the mainstream rock scene (albeit in a different context.) It would be completely ignorant to condemn an entire art form based on those who perform it rather badly--and that would go for any art form in any medium.

It is perfectly legitimate and acceptable that "Professor" Fox would disdain rap. Whatever. I'm sure a lot of people who prefer rock music would feel this way, because it is inherently unappealing to them--no matter how well conceived. I object to the ethos espoused in much of hip hop and rap. But I'm not so fucking ignorant as to condemn the genre simply due to those who are presumed to "represent" it. How, in fact, is a garage band of highschool boys sloppily banging out power cords any more "inherently" worthwhile or requiring of talent than a rapper whose words actually spin a uniquely poetic reflection of his life and experience, even while going largely unnoticed by the "bling" and machismo of mainstream acts? A growing number of more underground hiphop artists themselves decry the increasingly bastardized and disingenuous nature of the type of message and lifestyle reflected in the mainstream. And even at its most basic, "rap" is merely a style of vocal delivery. One could presumably "rap" over a live symphony, if that is the artistic effect verbally dense--especially considering he doesn't even sing the lines so much as, well--"rap" them.

Also, if you are so disdainful of these "lower" art forms, Mr. Fox, what in the fuck are you doing on the messageboard on a mainstream rock band anyway? Isn't this kind of primal shit a bit low-brow for your artistically heightened standards?

shut the fuck up you pompous prick

stumpycat
01-08-2008, 02:15 AM
I was meeting the "professor" on equal footing...

D.
01-08-2008, 02:22 AM
i wish someone would break this thread.

mayfuck?

redbreegull
01-08-2008, 02:34 AM
Bob Dillion:erm:

Anything you had to say has been overthrown by this.

rolmos
01-08-2008, 02:58 AM
http://chinavillamellera.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/dancing.gif
http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~michaelnovak/rastafarian_dancing.gif
http://www.animationplayhouse.com/chick_dance.gif
http://whitenarcissus.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/girl-dancing.gif
http://whitenarcissus.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/dancing-yanong.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/31/Dancing_Banana.gif

Professor Fox
01-08-2008, 03:00 AM
It would be completely ignorant to condemn an entire art form based on those who perform it rather badly..... Bob Dillion, incorporated some rather interesting modes of vocal delivery of great lyrical density--especially considering he doesn't even sing the lines so much as, well--"rap" them. .. Mr. Fox, what in the fuck are you doing on the messageboard on a mainstream rock band anyway?

In your wavering and incoherent response what you seem to be omitting is the simple fact that I'm basing my claims on the limited conventions of the genre, not merely by its mainstream practitioners. For example- the sampling of unoriginal material, the absence of melodies, the elicitations of hatred and violence (the epitome of ignorance), the lackluster rhythms etc. There may be exceptions to these hallmarks but they are nonetheless common elements across the board from local to mainstream rap acts. There's a reason why rap isn't performed in theaters and you and I know damn well why.

Secondly, who exactly is Bob "Dillion"?

Thirdly, if you want to meet on equal footing how about making the distinction between prose and poetry?

Lastly, I am here because the Smashing Pumpkins are a brilliant band and have championed some of the greatest melodies ever penned.

rolmos
01-08-2008, 03:06 AM
http://ui03.gamespot.com/930/mario11_4.gif
http://www.dm.unibo.it/~tesi/dance.gif
http://www.44dansestudio.com/images/danseur_rock.gif
http://lovr.metropoliglobal.com/images/dancing_cactus_hw.gif

Professor Fox
01-08-2008, 03:10 AM
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6tTAUN8nc44&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6tTAUN8nc44&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Phoenix Down
01-08-2008, 07:18 AM
Billy hates rap music. There is an interview out there somewhere where he talks about what a waste of time and energy he thinks it is. He also acknowledges that this attitude is very unpopular. I dunno, I kind of have to agree with him. In terms of musical credibility I find rap to be pretty indefensible. Or at least I have never heard any rap music that has struck me as anything more than base level word play set to an electronic beat and bass line.

here it is:

RM: Is rap interesting to you?
BC: No, I think there's a tremendous amount of work, but it's inherently a negative expression in my eyes. It values skills that aren't necessary at the end of the day. I think it's done a lot of damage. I think it will be looked upon someday as a sort of embarrassment. I know that's very unpopular.

Professor Fox
01-08-2008, 12:10 PM
You know what would be a great idea for a reality T.V. show? If they got all of these macho rapper douche bags to stand in a pitch-black warehouse for seven days. But here's where the fun comes in; each rapper is given a pair of scissors and a serrated toothbrush. I bet Budweiser would be willing to sponsor this.

Patuquitos
01-08-2008, 01:09 PM
Well and then look at all the emotive kids who think they're facing something terrible in their lives, those same kids who make modern rock music. I canít relate to that music because itís simply not sincere. Most of the music industry is full of people posturing. They just want to be cool or make money. Anytime a truly influential person comes along, there will always be a hundred imitators. The sad thing is that the imitators are being imitated. The romantic period in Art was really about people copying the renaissance period, without examining nature and making real observations. A true innovator is hard to find.

End of essay.

So?

Home
01-08-2008, 01:56 PM
Rap is very very dead. Uncle billy's right

Home
01-08-2008, 01:56 PM
+ 1 post

Professor Fox
01-08-2008, 04:22 PM
Am I the only one on the planet that thought that tupac sucked. Can someone please fill me in on why he's regarded with admiration in the rap community aside from the fact that he's dead?

Pretzel Logic
01-08-2008, 05:44 PM
Rap is TERRIBLE and any rap that has ever caught my attention was just catchy, nothing else. There is no depth in rap. It's pure shit.

slunken
01-08-2008, 09:50 PM
I

Thirdly, if you want to meet on equal footing how about making the distinction between prose and poetry?



not hard at all

mellon_c0llie
01-08-2008, 10:06 PM
So?

I hate to say that "rock" (at least modern rock) doesn't quite do it for me but neither does "rap". The negativity issue that Billy brings up is probably more why I stay away. I did branch out and started listening to the beastie boys a couple of years ago. I was pretty fond of "Testify" by Common for about a week and at one point I tried to memorize the rap in "Clint Eastwood".

I also don't buy the argument about musicians needing to play instruments to be an artist. That doesn't really fit with punk or techno, but many consider them to be equal art forms.

D.
01-08-2008, 10:19 PM
The negativity issue that Billy brings up is probably more why I stay away.

"you're all whores and i'm a fag"
"god is empty just like me"

et al

if you're not going to listen to rap, fine, but don't give a cop out answer. up until zwan, billy was about as negative/doom and gloom as they come.

mellon_c0llie
01-08-2008, 10:33 PM
"you're all whores and i'm a fag"
"god is empty just like me"

et al

if you're not going to listen to rap, fine, but don't give a cop out answer. up until zwan, billy was about as negative/doom and gloom as they come.

I didn't like the pumpkins because of "zero".

"zero" came with tonight tonight, 33, and 1979.

All perfectly positive songs.

On the other hand some people might consider promoting violence and degrading women as "negativity"

zsp77
01-08-2008, 11:13 PM
Just take a look at the kind of comments you got on a 2pac music video on Youtube :

2pac-best rapper evaaaar
Thug Life
West Side 4life nigazzz
hit em up nigga the best songgggg ever made 2pac forever !!!!!!!!!!

:erm:

True. Tupac rules from the grave.

zsp77
01-08-2008, 11:15 PM
Oh yeah, and rap is pretty much dead, for me at least. Rap is nothing more than an accumulation of samples from dead or cracked out R&B artists from the 70's, and does lack the merits of real creativity.

redbreegull
01-09-2008, 12:10 AM
"you're all whores and i'm a fag"
"god is empty just like me"

et al

if you're not going to listen to rap, fine, but don't give a cop out answer. up until zwan, billy was about as negative/doom and gloom as they come.


I really don't think this was the kind of negative expression Corgan meant.

stumpycat
01-09-2008, 01:12 AM
In your wavering and incoherent response what you seem to be omitting is the simple fact that I'm basing my claims on the limited conventions of the genre, not merely by its mainstream practitioners. For example- the sampling of unoriginal material, the absence of melodies, the elicitations of hatred and violence (the epitome of ignorance), the lackluster rhythms etc. There may be exceptions to these hallmarks but they are nonetheless common elements [across the board from local to mainstream rap acts. There's a reason why rap isn't performed in theaters and you and I know damn well why.
Rhythm is as much of an element of music as melody (not to mention the various other basic elements if music that are present in rap and hip hop as well.) Not all hip-hop/rap uses samples, nor is all music which incorporates such elements hip hop or rap. Although generally highly rhythm-based, some artists who incorporate the rap style incorporate things like melody and live instrumentation at various or all points within the "composition". (Though I would ask why creating something akin to the musical equivalent of a collage does not qualify as a form of "orchestration" in and of itself?) In some cultures, various forms of music consist almost (and sometimes) entirely of percussion. (Not that I really need to point that out.) Finally, there are a number of "hip hop" groups that certainly put on live performances.


Secondly, who exactly is Bob "Dillion"?
An example of poor and hurried editing after having to re-type a portion of the end of my reply that did not go through. The pre-edit was far more grammatically fucked up, believe me!

Thirdly, if you want to meet on equal footing how about making the distinction between prose and poetry?
Upon reflection, prose would seem a far more apt description of Bob Dylan's lyrical verse. I admit I wasn't too satisfied with the description myself...for lack of ability to reach the more appropriate term at the time.

Lastly, I am here because the Smashing Pumpkins are a brilliant band and have championed some of the greatest melodies ever penned.
Yes, wonderful...but they still exist within the "limitations" of rock music. As music has many purposes, melody (it's one element of music of course) is not necessarily at the forefront of all its forms--in the same way that it is only the goal of some forms of art to paint a realistic reproduction of the subject. It does not mean that other aims are illegitimate.

redbreegull
01-09-2008, 01:53 AM
What the fuck are you talking about? No real artists work within the previously established confines of their "genre" The Pumpkins have incorporated elements from many kinds of music...

And on the topic of rhythm in rap... Gosh, can you please provide an example of creative rhythm within a rap song? Usually it's a drum a machine and even when it is not, I have never heard anyone point to a drummer in rap as being influential or creative or groundbreaking the way one would talk about a rock or jazz drummer. So even what you claim is the primary part of rap as a genre is pretty uncreative and rehashed.

tcm
01-09-2008, 01:56 AM
the rhythm of the rhyme, playa.

My Blue Heaven
01-09-2008, 07:40 AM
Am I the only one on the planet that thought that tupac sucked. Can someone please fill me in on why he's regarded with admiration in the rap community aside from the fact that he's dead?

Come on come on
I see no changes. Wake up in the morning and I ask myself,
"Is life worth living? Should I blast myself?"
I'm tired of bein' poor and even worse I'm black.
My stomach hurts, so I'm lookin' for a purse to snatch.
Cops give a damn about a negro? Pull the trigger, kill a nigga, he's a hero.
Give the crack to the kids who the hell cares? One less hungry mouth on the welfare.
First ship 'em dope & let 'em deal the brothers.
Give 'em guns, step back, and watch 'em kill each other.
"It's time to fight back", that's what Huey said.
2 shots in the dark now Huey's dead.
I got love for my brother, but we can never go nowhere
unless we share with each other. We gotta start makin' changes.
Learn to see me as a brother 'stead of 2 distant strangers.
And that's how it's supposed to be.
How can the Devil take a brother if he's close to me?
I'd love to go back to when we played as kids,
but things change, and that's the way it is.

[Bridge w/ changing ad libs]

(Come on, come on) That's just the way it is. Things'll never be the same.
That's just the way it is. aww yeah...
[Repeat]

I see no changes. All I see is racist faces.
Misplaced hate makes disgrace for races we under.
I wonder what it takes to make this one better place...
let's erase the wasted.
Take the evil out the people, they'll be acting right.
'Cause mo' black than white is smokin' crack tonight.
And only time we chill is when we kill each other.
It takes skill to be real, time to heal each other.
And although it seems heaven sent,
we ain't ready to see a black President, uhh.
It ain't a secret don't conceal the fact...
the penitentiary's packed, and it's filled with blacks.
But some things will never change.
Try to show another way, but they stayin' in the dope game.
Now tell me what's a mother to do?
Bein' real don't appeal to the brother in you.
You gotta operate the easy way.
"I made a G today" But you made it in a sleazy way.
Sellin' crack to the kids. "I gotta get paid,"
Well hey, well that's the way it is.

[Talking:]

We gotta make a change...
It's time for us as a people to start makin' some changes.
Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other.
You see the old way wasn't working so it's on us to do
what we gotta do, to survive.

And still I see no changes. Can't a brother get a little peace?
There's war on the streets & the war in the Middle East.
Instead of war on poverty,
they got a war on drugs so the police can bother me.
And I ain't never did a crime I ain't have to do.
But now I'm back with the facts givin' 'em back to you.
Don't let 'em jack you up, back you up, crack you up and pimp smack you up.
You gotta learn to hold ya own.
They get jealous when they see ya with ya mobile phone.
But tell the cops they can't touch this.
I don't trust this, when they try to rush I bust this.
That's the sound of my tune. You say it ain't cool, but mama didn't raise no fool.
And as long as I stay black, I gotta stay strapped & I never get to lay back.
'Cause I always got to worry 'bout the pay backs.
Some buck that I roughed up way back... comin' back after all these years.
Rat-a-tat-tat-tat-tat. That's the way it is. uhh

Some things never change.


Tupac is saying the exact same thing the very much respected artist Billie Holiday said more than fifty years ago. In reality, not much has changed in how black people are treated in that space of time, and even up until today. In this song, Tupac is spreading awareness of these issues. It's done in a very forward way, as opposed to Billie Holiday's very subtle messages (see: "Strange Fruit"). This is perhaps because of the times. It's a very respectable cause to write music about - the horrible treatment of black people ever since they were brought to America for slavery, especially by the police. Some white people like to think that the times have changed since Billie Holiday was around. I believe that the treatment of black people has not changed for the better, but just changed altogether, along with everything else.

Professor Fox
01-09-2008, 08:53 AM
.

Tupac is saying the exact same thing the very much respected artist Billie Holiday said more than fifty years ago.

I digress. I don't think I've heard Billie Holiday ever refer to women as "bitches." I think if you're going to advocate tolerance and respect, it has to apply across the board to everyone. Tupac's demands for respect seems to be a selective thing insofar as it is to be completely self-serving. I also don't recall Billie ever using fear and intimidation to commandeer respect.

Professor Fox
01-09-2008, 04:12 PM
So even what you claim is the primary part of rap as a genre is pretty uncreative and rehashed.

Exactly.

Nachtkabarett
01-09-2008, 04:27 PM
Rap may not be dead, but it is certainly wounded.

Reflective of the music industry as a whole, in my opinion.

tcm
01-09-2008, 04:44 PM
guys this bickering is getting us nowhere can't we just agress to digress?

Professor Fox
01-09-2008, 06:45 PM
guys this bickering is getting us nowhere can't we just agress to digress?


Why can't we be friends?
...

ravenguy2000
01-09-2008, 08:08 PM
grow ignore list grow

Professor Fox
01-09-2008, 08:09 PM
grow ignore list grow

ignore list is bliss.

DeviousJ
01-09-2008, 08:32 PM
I hear opera is performed in theaters and people die in it! :eek:

Professor Fox
01-09-2008, 10:31 PM
I hear Oprah performs in front of dying audience.

Pretzel Logic
01-09-2008, 10:50 PM
I hear Oprah performs in front of dying audience.

I chuckled because I also often read opera as Oprah. She's so powerful that she controls my subconscious.

Professor Fox
01-10-2008, 09:12 AM
I chuckled because I also often read opera as Oprah. She's so powerful that she controls my subconscious.

Oh I know! Ever notice in a bookstore that every other book is branded with Oprah's book club sticker? This is the only book Oprah's sticker belongs on....

http://img31.picoodle.com/img/img31/4/1/10/f_oprahsucksm_6e23356.jpg

The Melty Man
01-10-2008, 10:46 AM
I believe what Billy was trying to say, is that rep is dead. Such a shame too.

Oh yeah and seriously, this coming from the man whose comeback album would've made it all the way to number 1 except for a...... RAP ALBUM?? Come on!

No doubt rap was crushed to dust with metal. Like the Metro DVD. Fuck by the time that comes out it will be the Metro Blu-Ray.

Professor Fox
01-10-2008, 11:06 AM
No doubt rap was crushed to dust with metal. Like the Metro DVD. Fuck by the time that comes out it will be the Metro Blu-Ray.

More like the Metro hyper-nuclear laser-ultra-supersonic-definition-ray... and of course it will have clipping.