I never understood why Kurt was with a woman like Courtney. I dont understand what he saw in her.

She seems perfect for Billy. Not to be mean or disrespectful but they both seem like narcissists. They seem just right for each other.

Kurt was such a pure soul compared to Billy. Theres so much to not like about Billy and its the same way with Courtney.

GAH.

hmm thought that was why kurt shot himself...courtney kept cheating on him with billy and courtney's baby is actually billy's

On the 9th day God created shame

hcourtney kept cheating on him with billy and courtney's baby is actually billy's

http://perspectivabr.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/frances3preview.jpg

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uhh.

Hey maybe billys the one who shot cobain, how come no one suspects him

courtney kept cheating on him with billy and courtney's baby is actually billy's

Hmm... so that's why Frances looks exactly like Kurt! She's Billy's! Perfect sense.

Please, keep pretending you know these people personally. It makes you look very intelligent.

Yeah. "Pure soul?" What's that about?

Sounds like something mayday would say about Billy. Or Jesus.

http://perspectivabr.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/frances3preview.jpg

Look at those eyes - she's 100% Cobain's daughter.

And if she starts using heroin she might even get his figure.

I used the word seem. Im just speculating but I dont think Im really reaching. Other people here have speculated that Billy has Aspergers.

i'm bored with the whole "kurt as martyr" thing. can we move on? He was a heroin addicted, scruffy little guy who happened to be able to craft a catchy melody. I imagine he was a decent enough person, but i still fail to see why he was hailed as some voice of my generation, as some fucking messiah for outcasts and losers. He was just a guy who couldn't handle the pressure of the life he'd gotten himself into. I guess billy's a dick because he didn't blow his head off.
Nirvana was a decent band, sometimes even great, but I'll never understand why they have the status of being the greatest band of the 90s, or why kurt is looked at as some great hero. Hell, I don't even think he understood why.

i sound all mad in my post there, but i'm not. mad. as in angry. though possibly mad as in nuts.

Poor Billy has always had this "idea" of who Courtney Love really is or really should be. I wonder if he'll ever see her for what's really there and how everyday she chooses to live her life.

To be in love with a woman like that is just another chain in the theme of self-destruction.
Plain as the writing on the wall. But people have to discover these things for themselves. So who what are you gonna do

i'm bored with the whole "kurt as martyr" thing. can we move on? He was a heroin addicted, scruffy little guy who happened to be able to craft a catchy melody. I imagine he was a decent enough person, but i still fail to see why he was hailed as some voice of my generation, as some fucking messiah for outcasts and losers.



it's so awesome how you just come out and say things. i love it :)

i'm bored with the whole "kurt as martyr" thing. can we move on? He was a heroin addicted, scruffy little guy who happened to be able to craft a catchy melody. I imagine he was a decent enough person, but i still fail to see why he was hailed as some voice of my generation, as some fucking messiah for outcasts and losers. He was just a guy who couldn't handle the pressure of the life he'd gotten himself into. I guess billy's a dick because he didn't blow his head off.
Nirvana was a decent band, sometimes even great, but I'll never understand why they have the status of being the greatest band of the 90s, or why kurt is looked at as some great hero. Hell, I don't even think he understood why

THANK YOU! You may be the only person that sees eye-to-eye on me with Nirvana and Kurt Cobain.

mayday, i'm sure billy knows courtney much better than you think you do. did you ever consider that? all you know of her is a persona. He knows the actual human behind the persona, which might be very different than what you perceive. Something to think about.

Kurt had a pure soul until he went to hell...you know...cuz he shot himself.

wait. mayday, when did you go back to being mayday??

it's so awesome how you just come out and say things. i love it :)

there seems to be some taboo attached to ever saying anything negative about kurt. I was a fan, I was sad when he died. I just don't think he was as magnificent as this legend that's been created.

Poor Billy has always had this "idea" of who Courtney Love really is or really should be. I wonder if he'll ever see her for what's really there and how everyday she chooses to live her life.

To be in love with a woman like that is just another chain in the theme of self-destruction.
Plain as the writing on the wall. But people have to discover these things for themselves. So who what are you gonna do

skipgo beat me to it.

And I'm about to beat you. I love it when people see someone having a hard time in their lives and dealing with it poorly, and then they disregard anything positive about the person.

EDIT: And I'd never really beat you, mayday. That would be awful.

i'm bored with the whole "kurt as martyr" thing. can we move on? He was a heroin addicted, scruffy little guy who happened to be able to craft a catchy melody. I imagine he was a decent enough person, but i still fail to see why he was hailed as some voice of my generation, as some fucking messiah for outcasts and losers. He was just a guy who couldn't handle the pressure of the life he'd gotten himself into. I guess billy's a dick because he didn't blow his head off.
Nirvana was a decent band, sometimes even great, but I'll never understand why they have the status of being the greatest band of the 90s, or why kurt is looked at as some great hero. Hell, I don't even think he understood why.

Skipgo, thank you for taking EVERY word out of my mouth. I couldn't agree more. Brilliant post. But I actually throughly enjoy Nirvana, but if it wasn't for his suicide, they would never be where they are at now. I mean shit, if Billy did it, holy fuck, greatest band ever, Smashing Pumpkins. But hey whatever.

mayday, i'm sure billy knows courtney much better than you think you do. did you ever consider that? all you know of her is a persona. He knows the actual human behind the persona, which might be very different than what you perceive. Something to think about.


oh please. i've seen the woman in videos. i've read things she written. the perception she chooses to broadcast to the whole world is enough for me to know what she is about or wants people to think she's about. and what is about is exploitation and destruction and i refuse to entertain it. i absolutely refuse

THANK YOU! You may be the only person that sees eye-to-eye on me with Nirvana and Kurt Cobain.

i was actually expecting to get slammed pretty hard for that post (of course there's still plenty of time for that).

oh please. i've seen the woman in videos. i've read things she written. the perception she chooses to broadcast to the whole world is enough for me to know what she is about or wants people to think she's about. and what is about is exploitation and destruction and i refuse to entertain it. i absolutely refuse

Great. Refuse it silently.

Choose a username and stick with it

there seems to be some taboo attached to ever saying anything negative about kurt. I was a fan, I was sad when he died. I just don't think he was as magnificent as this legend that's been created.

i agree i actually never was a Nirvana fan. I never understood the greatness of their music. But they hooked into somekind of tidal wave that related to some people i guess.

he did some interesting things but nothing that will impact my life. i feel very bad for the terrible pain he went through. and i wish things ended differently.

oh please. i've seen the woman in videos. i've read things she written. the perception she chooses to broadcast to the whole world is enough for me to know what she is about or wants people to think she's about. and what is about is exploitation and destruction and i refuse to entertain it. i absolutely refuse

i don't have any intention of trying to change your mind, I don't like the woman that much either. But just like I've said about billy, none of us really know any of these people. We form opinions based on a public persona, because that's all we can do. I don't like her for the same reasons you don't, but I'm willing to admit that there must be something there that I don't know or understand.

Do you feel bad for the terrible pain Courtney's been through?

I feel bad for Frances...poor girl.

Why does the public persona have to be so different from the private one? Why cant there be a connection or a similarity?

Great. Refuse it silently.

you know there are lots of people that go through terrible things in life and WANT TO GET BETTER and CHANGE and GROW and there are other people that dont brush their hair and put make all over there face and become a public trainwreck icon because it somehow fulfills them. Neh eh. There's nothing so far that interests me about that woman.

Actually the two celebrities I have a lot of respect for right now are The Jolie-Pitts. Despite some legitimate turmoils in their life they are working them out and they are doing great things for the world. We'll see how it goes. But i am elated with those two. CL would fall at the opposite spectrum of this concept.

i agree i actually never was a Nirvana fan. I never understood the greatness of their music. But they hooked into somekind of tidal wave that related to some people i guess.


i think it's all got a lot to do with the media pushing them on everyone though. If suddenly the radio and television started pushing Band of Horses down everyone's throat, they would become huge. most people are sheep and will like what they're told is good. Sure there were plenty of people in the early 90s who genuinely loved nirvana, but i'd bet that most of them were into it because it was plastered all over mtv, magazines, radio, etc. The same reason they all loved Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer a few years before that, and Brittany a few years after.


edit: band of horses is my current favorite band aside from sp, which is why i pulled them out as my example; it could be any band though. I used an example of a band i like because i liked nirvana before they were huge.

Why does the public persona have to be so different from the private one? Why cant there be a connection or a similarity?

there most certaintly is

del

Why does the public persona have to be so different from the private one? Why cant there be a connection or a similarity?

oh i'm sure there's a connection; i'm sure it's a big connection. I just think that we don't get the whole picture of someone is when it's all related to us in soundbytes and video clips.

i think it's all got a lot to do with the media pushing them on everyone though. If suddenly the radio and television started pushing Band of Horses down everyone's throat, they would become huge. most people are sheep and will like what they're told is good. Sure there were plenty of people in the early 90s who genuinely loved nirvana, but i'd bet that most of them were into it because it was plastered all over mtv, magazines, radio, etc. The same reason they all loved Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer a few years before that, and Brittany a few years after.

So you keep saying everything I agree with. First about Kurt/Nirvana, now this. Well put Skipgo, well put:cheers:

:cheers: right back atcha.

" we all know i'm full of shit "

- Dross

God loves courtney, mayday.

Maybe CL will re-invent herslef now that Britney is the trainwreck queen. though my hope is for Brintey to get the help she needs. i think she is legitatimately suffering a lot fo things right now. i dont think she wants to be the way she is. i think she's sick. i feel really bad for her.

God loves courtney, mayday.



God loves everyone :)

a Christian's job is to try and live their life like Jesus. Therefore, you should love Courtney too.

There are plenty of reasons to love Courtney (I'm obviously speaking as someone who's never met her, so what I'm saying is there are plenty of reasons to love her public persona)

All I know is that without her and Hole I wouldn't be half as confident as I am being a girl who plays guitar. I know it probably sounds silly to all you guys (and probably a lot of you girls), but it's discouraging to see all these men who get to be raw and roudy, but all the women who are even remotely rock stars are still not nearly as in-your-face. Looking at Courtney and Brody makes me feel better about wanting to be a REAL rock star :)

Besides, I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet...

There are plenty of men in the music industry who get caught up in drugs and alcohol and women... but when Courtney behaves the same way, people freak out. What's up with that? What about all the DADS out there acting like fools? Why don't they get as much criticism as Courtney? I realize that it's a different situation with her being a single mother and not having the dad there to make up for her psychoticness. But still, even if there was a husband ni the picture, people would still just say, "She's a bad mother and a bad person" and forget about all the men doing the same things and just getting an, "Oh, those silly rock stars."

It's ridiculous.

Courtney Love is a leech. Thats how she operates. She takes advantage of people. She cant stand on her own.

There are plenty of reasons to love Courtney (I'm obviously speaking as someone who's never met her, so what I'm saying is there are plenty of reasons to love her public persona)

All I know is that without her and Hole I wouldn't be half as confident as I am being a girl who plays guitar. I know it probably sounds silly to all you guys (and probably a lot of you girls), but it's discouraging to see all these men who get to be raw and roudy, but all the women who are even remotely rock stars are still not nearly as in-your-face. Looking at Courtney and Brody makes me feel better about wanting to be a REAL rock star :)

Besides, I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet...

There are plenty of men in the music industry who get caught up in drugs and alcohol and women... but when Courtney behaves the same way, people freak out. What's up with that? What about all the DADS out there acting like fools? Why don't they get as much criticism as Courtney? I realize that it's a different situation with her being a single mother and not having the dad there to make up for her psychoticness. But still, even if there was a husband ni the picture, people would still just say, "She's a bad mother and a bad person" and forget about all the men doing the same things and just getting an, "Oh, those silly rock stars."

It's ridiculous.

it's a man's world. always has been. You and I (and courtney) are just lucky we don't live in a country where rape victims are killed by their families because they're "impure", or where there's forced female circumcision, or where we have to cover our body from head to toe so that the man we belong to is the only man to ever see us. Or that we're allowed to vote, have careers, make our own decisions, etc.
I'm far from being a feminist, and while I agree with what you say and also find it ridiculous, I also realize things could be a lot worse than just "woman aren't allowed to rock".

it's like the thing where a guy who has lots of sex with different women is considered awesome by his peers, but a woman who acts the same is considered a slut. It's the double standard that we may never shake.

geez i sound so serious this morning.

Haha, but you're making sense Skipgo, it's all good. Yeah no matter what the United States will ALWAYS view men and women differently. Well I shouldn't say always, hopefully it will change. There just seems to always be a double standard about things.

But hey Jessica, you don't have to be raw, rowdy, and in my face to prove you're a real rock star. It's in the music. ;) But yeah I definatly see you're point.

I actually throughly enjoy Nirvana, but if it wasn't for his suicide, they would never be where they are at now. I mean shit, if Billy did it, holy fuck, greatest band ever, Smashing Pumpkins. But hey whatever.

nirvana's punk routes helped their credibility. the pumpkins' draw influences from prog, goth, psychedelia, metal - all uncool sources from a music journo's perspective. they would never receive this kind of acclaim, regardless.

mayday, i'm sure billy knows courtney much better than you think you do. did you ever consider that? all you know of her is a persona. He knows the actual human behind the persona, which might be very different than what you perceive. Something to think about.

of course, what you say has some truth to it. however, hitler was kind to children and animals, tee-total, didn't smoke and to my knowledge never killed anyone personally. okay, he did rant manically at people he knew on occasion, but that is about as bad as it got. people who didn't know him say he was a bad guy and i kind of believe them.

oh i'm sure there's a connection; i'm sure it's a big connection. I just think that we don't get the whole picture of someone is when it's all related to us in soundbytes and video clips.

nuremberg rally = a/v clips.

though my hope is for Brintey

brintey mcginty.

courtney love tried to gain respect by acting in an overty sexual way on-stage a la madonna. if either of them are strong women it is by what goes on in their heads, not by a non-attachment to wearing clothes in public, which is really just a crude demonstration of being in control of her body. this is the same kind of logic that implies that a pole-dancer is somehow empowered. if any girl feels inspired by her behaviour i guess it is a good thing, as long as being inspired doesn't mean aping. there are probably a lot better examples out there.

- -- --- --- ----- -------------------------------------------------------- ----- ----- ---- ---- --- --- -- -- -
I think Corgan must have a kid with Cobain's daughter so the world can have a Music Jesus!
So how do you think it could be his son? (temperament, talent, mood, look, etc)
(this is a good topic for a thread... someone start it quickly)
><><>><<><><<<<<<<<>>>>><<>>>>><<<<<>>><<><<<><[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

I never understood how Nirvana was so huge and SP not so much... I mean they were huge enough, but did anyone here ever even like bwbw? There is so much unheralded genius in SP's catalog it makes me sick. Nirvana was pretty good and all, but I never plugged into them and connected likeI did with SP. I hate seeing Kurt Cobain t-shirts and shit. It makes me sick and I think Kurt would be twice as disgusted as me. These bullshit teenagers who are too cool for their parents latching onto this figure whom they perceive as their hero and leader who in fact would probably resent them for being such spoiled suburban babies. Too bad Nirvana never got a chance to fizzle...maybe there wouldn't be all these shit nirvana imposters today, either.

I have had, for a while now, some notes for a future Hipsters United post, something like "Billy vs. Kurt". But now I'm going to be accused of ripping off Shannon. :)

it's a man's world. always has been. You and I (and courtney) are just lucky we don't live in a country where rape victims are killed by their families because they're "impure", or where there's forced female circumcision, or where we have to cover our body from head to toe so that the man we belong to is the only man to ever see us. Or that we're allowed to vote, have careers, make our own decisions, etc.
I'm far from being a feminist, and while I agree with what you say and also find it ridiculous, I also realize things could be a lot worse than just "woman aren't allowed to rock".

it's like the thing where a guy who has lots of sex with different women is considered awesome by his peers, but a woman who acts the same is considered a slut. It's the double standard that we may never shake.

Oooh, I agree wholeheartedly! And believe it or not, I'm incredibly thankful that I'm at least a human being despite my sex. But... just because it could be worse doesn't mean I'm just going to settle for what it is. There's always room for improvement, and I admire the women taking steps toward improvement.

But hey Jessica, you don't have to be raw, rowdy, and in my face to prove you're a real rock star. It's in the music. But yeah I definatly see you're point.

Oooh, I know :) I don't see myself ever doing drugs or taking my shirt off to make a statement. It's more of the emotional freedom that some of these female rock stars embrace that I really feel connected with. Tori Amos is a perfect example of a woman who breaks all steryotypes and says and does things that aren't necessarily "accepted." Courtney Love is a different kind of strong woman. I'm not saying I embrace or approve of her crazy drug habits (though I honestly believe she's gotten clean, minus cigarettes), it's more that fact that she screams when she wants to and swears when she wants to and says anything she feels.

I never understood why Kurt was with a woman like Courtney. I dont understand what he saw in her.

She seems perfect for Billy. Not to be mean or disrespectful but they both seem like narcissists. They seem just right for each other.

Kurt was such a pure soul compared to Billy. Theres so much to not like about Billy and its the same way with Courtney.


I agree

well i went to school








IN OLYMPIAAAAAAAA-YA-YA-YA-YA-YA-YA-YA EVERYONE'S THE SAME

They just played "Smells Like Teen Spirit" when going to break in the Seahawks-Redskins game.

it's a man's world. always has been. You and I (and courtney) are just lucky we don't live in a country where rape victims are killed by their families because they're "impure", or where there's forced female circumcision, or where we have to cover our body from head to toe so that the man we belong to is the only man to ever see us. Or that we're allowed to vote, have careers, make our own decisions, etc.
I'm far from being a feminist, and while I agree with what you say and also find it ridiculous, I also realize things could be a lot worse than just "woman aren't allowed to rock".
yeah at least we don't get murdered for being raped. be grateful ladies.

how could you possibly be in a position to say whether or not someone who died in 14 years ago, who you likely only have "known" through recorded music, videos, magazine articles, etc. is a "pure soul"

how could you possibly be in a position to say whether or not someone who died in 14 years ago, who you likely only have "known" through recorded music, videos, magazine articles, etc. is a "pure soul"

Depends on what he means by pure soul. It's well known and documented that Kurt hated the big-label whoring and expectations, which is why he had Albini do In Utero, so maybe that's what he meant. Kurt hated the limelight, whereas Billy thrives on it like a plant needs sun. I don't blame Billy nor do I think Kurt's a better person for that particular preference, but it seems that most people equate that with purity, that is-- purity of artistry unadulterated by financial/corporate interests.

i've never liked nirvana, and i don't understand the kurt love either... i'm just glad sublime wasn't around longer. can you imagine if that nowell guy had died after 'what i got' was released? fuck that shit with a big wooden spoon.

I have had, for a while now, some notes for a future Hipsters United post, something like "Billy vs. Kurt". But now I'm going to be accused of ripping off Shannon. :)

:)
you should write it, i'd be interested to read your take on it.

yeah at least we don't get murdered for being raped. be grateful ladies.

well yeah, we <i>should</i> be fucking grateful for that, what's your point? I'm not saying it's okay that there's a double standard when it comes to men and women in america, just that there are a lot of other women in the world who have it a lot worse than girls who wanna RAWK. No amount of moaning and crying about how "unfair" it is will make any difference, and really it shouldn't matter anyway. A woman (or a man) should do whatever it is they want to do and not give a shit what other people think about it.

in order to be a rock star you need talent.


and a penis.

Depends on what he means by pure soul. It's well known and documented that Kurt hated the big-label whoring and expectations, which is why he had Albini do In Utero, so maybe that's what he meant. Kurt hated the limelight, whereas Billy thrives on it like a plant needs sun. I don't blame Billy nor do I think Kurt's a better person for that particular preference, but it seems that most people equate that with purity, that is-- purity of artistry unadulterated by financial/corporate interests.



i'm just saying none of this is a fact. people say he hated the limelight. well he sure was in it a lot. believe it or not, it's possible to avoid the limelight if you really, truly hate it.

none of us are in a position to do anything other than speculate, which ultimately amounts to nothing

none of us are in a position to do anything other than speculate, which ultimately amounts to nothing

agreed.

Cobain was a dumb-ass money-grubbing druggie the world should've forgotten. I'm glad that no-talent asshole is dead.

i agree that he is overrated, but that's pretty harsh, duo.

He was trying to screw his band-mates out of over 90% of the money they were making before he died. He clearly wanted all the money for himself. On top of that, the band was headed for a breakup because he was such an asshole. Then he kills himself and the kiddies lament his death as the greatest tragedy to hit rock since Hendrix and now Cobain's a rock god. Fuck that. The guy was a piece of shit corporate whore just like everybody else. He absolutely adored his popularity and the wealth that accompanied it.

none of us are in a position to do anything other than speculate, which ultimately amounts to nothing

^

I even agree with what you're saying for the most part, but going so far as saying you're glad he's dead is pretty fucked up.

Corgan - 1
Cobain - 0

a Christian's job is to try and live their life like Jesus. Therefore, you should love Courtney too.

lol. you're good skipgo.

this just made me feel like :hurl:

some things you just have to leave to God, im very prepared to let CL be in this catagory :)

Courtney Love is a leech. Thats how she operates. She takes advantage of people. She cant stand on her own.

like Valdimere in Harry Potter?

it's a man's world. always has been.

ideally men and women should both work together.

i've never felt intimidated by men and i never will be.

i'm not intimidated by men, and i don't think it's "okay" that it's a man's world. It's just a fact that the world is run by men, for the most part.

mayday you're the biggest hypocrite ever. I pray to God (no pun intended) that you really are a troll.

He was trying to screw his band-mates out of over 90% of the money they were making before he died. He clearly wanted all the money for himself. On top of that, the band was headed for a breakup because he was such an asshole. Then he kills himself and the kiddies lament his death as the greatest tragedy to hit rock since Hendrix and now Cobain's a rock god. Fuck that. The guy was a piece of shit corporate whore just like everybody else. He absolutely adored his popularity and the wealth that accompanied it.

yep. loved it so much he had to self-medicate his never ending ulcers with the only thing that dulled the pain-- smack. poor guy. Blame the media for deifying him, not Kurt himself.

he was selfish for using smack. plain and simple. i've been addicted to drugs, and it was no one's fault but my own. sure I had stomach problems too (including ulcers), there are a million excuses. ultimately you make a choice, and Kurt couldn't handle it. I don't blame him, it's easy to get sucked in, especially if you have some legitimate source of pain.

let this thread die

any single girls here want to chat? i'm sensitive to your needs ;)

mayday you're the biggest hypocrite ever. I pray to God (no pun intended) that you really are a troll.


well, no i'm not a troll.

but happy prayers to you. :D

well yeah, we <i>should</i> be fucking grateful for that, what's your point? I'm not saying it's okay that there's a double standard when it comes to men and women in america, just that there are a lot of other women in the world who have it a lot worse than girls who wanna RAWK. No amount of moaning and crying about how "unfair" it is will make any difference, and really it shouldn't matter anyway. A woman (or a man) should do whatever it is they want to do and not give a shit what other people think about it.
there are certainly greater horrors inflicted on women in this world than not living out one's dream to be a rich, well-respected female rock star. but do you see how these issues are all connected? they're really all part of one greater tragedy. "moaning and crying" (ie. pointing out the flaws in our culture) is better than saying "oh well there's nothing we can do". I don't really think gratefulness is the issue here. you can be grateful but still demand change. there is a blatant systemic problem so why don't we try to address it rather than focus on how at least it's not as bad as x? talk about not making any difference.

yeah at least we don't get murdered for being raped. be grateful ladies.

biggest lol of 2008...i just hope i'm reading the sarcasm correctly...if not; sad

i was trying to think of a better woman rock star role model for i adore adore and who i thought of was Dolores O'Rirden (sp last name). The lead of the Cranberries. I think shes wonderful. She sang about many interesting topics. war, love, change. I stand behind her as a quality woman rockstar. I think her music is wonderful.

no one care

i was trying to think of a better woman rock star role model for i adore adore and who i thought of was Dolores O'Rirden (sp last name). The lead of the Cranberries. I think shes wonderful. She sang about many interesting topics. war, love, change. I stand behind her as a quality woman rockstar. I think her music is wonderful.

Please, Mayday, save your time. Courtney is hardly the one and only female rock star I look up to. Shirley Manson, Tori Amos (as previously mentioned), Karen O, Melissa Auf der Maur (the whole reason I started playing bass right there), Juliette Lewis, Brody Dalle (also previously mentioned), Gwen Stefani (from 15 years ago), etc.

yeah there are much better female role models in rock music than Courtney Love.

Luscious Jackson, the woman singer / guitarist from Slowdive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_rock_singers


edit: but still, let this thread die

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7138/iadoreadoredv5.jpg

there are certainly greater horrors inflicted on women in this world than not living out one's dream to be a rich, well-respected female rock star. but do you see how these issues are all connected? they're really all part of one greater tragedy. "moaning and crying" (ie. pointing out the flaws in our culture) is better than saying "oh well there's nothing we can do". I don't really think gratefulness is the issue here. you can be grateful but still demand change. there is a blatant systemic problem so why don't we try to address it rather than focus on how at least it's not as bad as x? talk about not making any difference.

tell me charmbag, what should we do to address this issue and make it go away? by doing what i said, which is to not give a fuck and do what you want to do regardless of what other people might say about it? Did I ever say it shouldn't be addressed or that it doesn't matter? Of course I didn't. I'm just stating the fact that it's not likely to change just because we talk about how unfair it is, and that at the end of the day, it's not really important what people think or say about you. It's not like people are STOPPING women from being in bands. What I was getting at in my original post on the matter was that at least we live somewhere where we're free to do exactly what we want in that regard, we aren't held back from trying to live out our dreams because of our sex, whereas in some places in the world horrible things happen to women simply because they're female. People are going to have their idiotic attitudes about things like this, but that won't stop us from doing what we want.

edit: but still, let this thread die
dammit, cork_soaker.

I forgot all about Veruca Salt. good decent band. Id take them over Hole any day.

the go-go's were pretty well known for acting like the boys during their heyday.

let us all fight for women's right to sex drugs and rock and roll, shall we?

the go-go's were pretty well known for acting like the boys during their heyday.

let us all fight for women's right to sex drugs and rock and roll, shall we?

Love the Go-Go's. And sometimes, they partied more than the boys. Ozzy once threw them out of his dressing room. :smoke:

http://banggogo.com/gogos/gogosrs.jpg

http://banggogo.com/gogos/gogosrs2a.jpg

:)

tell me charmbag, what should we do to address this issue and make it go away? by doing what i said, which is to not give a fuck and do what you want to do regardless of what other people might say about it? Did I ever say it shouldn't be addressed or that it doesn't matter? Of course I didn't. I'm just stating the fact that it's not likely to change just because we talk about how unfair it is, and that at the end of the day, it's not really important what people think or say about you. It's not like people are STOPPING women from being in bands. What I was getting at in my original post on the matter was that at least we live somewhere where we're free to do exactly what we want in that regard, we aren't held back from trying to live out our dreams because of our sex, whereas in some places in the world horrible things happen to women simply because they're female. People are going to have their idiotic attitudes about things like this, but that won't stop us from doing what we want.
your original point is pretty plain. I just don't understand why your first reaction to someone making a comment about gender roles is "be grateful". it seems like you're trying to minimize the issue.

also saying "it's not like people are STOPPING women from being in bands" doesn't address the root of the problem. no one's been "stopping" women from running for president either, but this is the first US election with a female candidate. women are held back from doing things all the time, even if it's not at gun point.

I like to "talk about how unfair it is" because I consider words to be a good way to change "people's idiotic attitudes".

i guess i just don't find this particular facet of the issue as being as huge as you seem to find it. There are worse things in the world than people thinking a woman in a band is trashy because she acts like one of the guys.

I've found that people with narrow-minded attitudes don't give a shit if you think it's unfair, and generally don't change their minds about it just because you like to talk about it. I'm the lone liberal in a conservative, fundamentalist christian family. They're about as far right as you can go without being extremists. I've had argument after argument with them throughout the years about issues like homophobia, racism, politics, censorship, and my libertarian views in general. I have yet to change a single redneck mind. Talking is a waste of time when the person you're talking to doesn't give a shit about being open to someone else's perspective.

That being said, I've never been the type of person to discourage discussion on any topic, and i think you really jumped to the wrong conclusion after reading the post i made this morning. Which is probably entirely my own fault for not being more clear in the first place. I didn't mean to say "shut up let's don't talk about it", which is what you seemed to get from my comment. Just a few days ago there was a post where everyone went off on this guy who said women can't be amazing bass players or some such nonsense, and i was right there with them. I never meant that it's not an issue that should be talked about; I just think there are more important issues facing women than whether or not they should be able to be in a rock band without people gossiping about them.

LETS ALL POST PICS OF NAKED GUYS!!!

WELL ALRIGHT THEN!

http://www.albionmonitor.com/0605a/nakedguy.jpg

ya see how his leg is strategically placed so as not to make that nsfw? nice.

It's not like people are STOPPING women from being in bands. What I was getting at in my original post on the matter was that at least we live somewhere where we're free to do exactly what we want in that regard, we aren't held back from trying to live out our dreams because of our sex, whereas in some places in the world horrible things happen to women simply because they're female. People are going to have their idiotic attitudes about things like this, but that won't stop us from doing what we want.

Unless the woman wants to get her songs on the radio and play arenas ;)

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that talk does little good in situations like these (though I'm quite the talker, and I admit it). And just so you know, I'm not one to "play the victim" and blame any missed opportunities on the fact that I'm a girl. All I'm saying is that it's nice to have women like Courtney who defy the "norm" and make it okay for me to think outside the cute little box people make for females.

And sexism goes both ways (though I think it's agreed upon that women are ultimately the ones "suffering" most) When you think of a nurse, you think "female," right? I do. I can't help it. And every time I talk about this nice male nurse I had for knee surgery a few years ago (he was really into The Cure and we talked about them all the time), my friends giggle and make "he must be gay" remarks. So we all suffer from being lumped into boxes.

You know what drives me nuts? McDonalds has "girl" toys and "boy" toys... I always used to ask for the boy toys when I was little ;) Little toy cars > Little toy dolls

EDIT:

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7138/iadoreadoredv5.jpg

:love: this made my night! hahaha

i guess i just don't find this particular facet of the issue as being as huge as you seem to find it. There are worse things in the world than people thinking a woman in a band is trashy because she acts like one of the guys.

I've found that people with narrow-minded attitudes don't give a shit if you think it's unfair, and generally don't change their minds about it just because you like to talk about it. I'm the lone liberal in a conservative, fundamentalist christian family. They're about as far right as you can go without being extremists. I've had argument after argument with them throughout the years about issues like homophobia, racism, politics, censorship, and my libertarian views in general. I have yet to change a single redneck mind. Talking is a waste of time when the person you're talking to doesn't give a shit about being open to someone else's perspective.

That being said, I've never been the type of person to discourage discussion on any topic, and i think you really jumped to the wrong conclusion after reading the post i made this morning. Which is probably entirely my own fault for not being more clear in the first place. I didn't mean to say "shut up let's don't talk about it", which is what you seemed to get from my comment. Just a few days ago there was a post where everyone went off on this guy who said women can't be amazing bass players or some such nonsense, and i was right there with them. I never meant that it's not an issue that should be talked about; I just think there are more important issues facing women than whether or not they should be able to be in a rock band without people gossiping about them.
fair enough :cool:

i'm glad you said that, because my next reply was that we should agree to disagree :) (even though i don't <i>really</i> disagree with you, it's just in the details). Though i do see where you're coming from, that even the (seemingly) small things are important to the bigger picture.

hey adore, have you heard of this: http://www.girlsrockcamp.org/

i saw something on 20/20 or dateline or whatever about it, and watched it with my daughter. She thought it looked fun, which is why i started teaching her to play.
I have to wonder if part of the problem with girls not being as easily accepted into this rock culture is because of what we were talking about the other day with wilch, about how there are far fewer girls interested in being in bands than there are guys. And I wonder if girls don't pick it up because they're just not interested, or if they don't pick it up because they think it's not a "girl" thing?

:love: this made my night! hahaha

i wonder how long you'll stay on there

omg kc waz he bezt at what he did

NIRVANA 4 EVA

kurt i know your alive so if you see this please come back!!1 kthxbi

hey adore, have you heard of this: http://www.girlsrockcamp.org/

i saw something on 20/20 or dateline or whatever about it, and watched it with my daughter. She thought it looked fun, which is why i started teaching her to play.
I have to wonder if part of the problem with girls not being as easily accepted into this rock culture is because of what we were talking about the other day with wilch, about how there are far fewer girls interested in being in bands than there are guys. And I wonder if girls don't pick it up because they're just not interested, or if they don't pick it up because they think it's not a "girl" thing?

I think it's both - I'm the only female in my family who plays guitar or havs ever expressed any leanings towards playing "rock" music. My sister thinks i'm beyond strange. On the other hand, my male cousins ranging from 9 - 19 either play themselves or want to. Same thing at high school/uni.

An on CL - yes she's a bit of a train wreak at times and does things that are questionable but

I know it probably sounds silly to all you guys (and probably a lot of you girls), but it's discouraging to see all these men who get to be raw and roudy, but all the women who are even remotely rock stars are still not nearly as in-your-face. Looking at Courtney and Brody makes me feel better about wanting to be a REAL rock star :)



when I was in high school seeing/hearing CL and others - Kim Gordon in particular - was empowering and to my 14 year old mind I saw that being in a band and speaking your mind and being loud and having an opinion (whether you agree with the opinion or not) was something girls could and should do - and that is a great thing.

Please, Mayday, save your time. Tori Amos Gwen Stefani (from 15 years ago), etc.


i think these artists are excellent. :)!

the cute little box people make for females.

im not really farmiliar with that cute little box in my own life. all the women in my life have done what they wanted. i'm lucky i have a lot of great role models.

And every time I talk about this nice male nurse I had for knee surgery a few years ago (he was really into The Cure and we talked about them all the time), my friends giggle and make "he must be gay" remarks. So we all suffer from being lumped into boxes.
That's too bad. I work with a guy nurse and i think he's one of the best. Men I find to be more straight to the point of it. which i really like a lot.

I Theres so much to not like about Billy and its the same way with Courtney.

What is there exactly not to like about billy nowadays?I don't understand, to me he seems like a very honest man. Not necessarily friendly but honest and sincere, which i think is more important. Probably that honesty came out as rude in the past but it seems to me he really has his ego under control these days and it's unfair to still see him as an ego maniac.

maybe shes billy and kurts daughter

i'm bored with the whole "kurt as martyr" thing. can we move on? He was a heroin addicted, scruffy little guy who happened to be able to craft a catchy melody. I imagine he was a decent enough person, but i still fail to see why he was hailed as some voice of my generation, as some fucking messiah for outcasts and losers. He was just a guy who couldn't handle the pressure of the life he'd gotten himself into. I guess billy's a dick because he didn't blow his head off.
Nirvana was a decent band, sometimes even great, but I'll never understand why they have the status of being the greatest band of the 90s, or why kurt is looked at as some great hero. Hell, I don't even think he understood why.

Plain and simple, because Kurt comitted suicide. I assume if he had never taken his life Kurt Cobain, nor Nirvana would be looked back on as being as significient as people play them off to be now.

They'd basically be just like Pearl Jam, people love and respect them, but they're not nearly as popular as they where ten years ago.

I'm saying this as a moderate big fan of Nirvana, but I fully realize they aren't the greatest band in the world.

maybe shes billy and kurts daughter

you could be onto something here!!

The Go-Gos creep me out, by the way.

Please, Mayday, save your time. Courtney is hardly the one and only female rock star I look up to. Shirley Manson, Tori Amos (as previously mentioned), Karen O, Melissa Auf der Maur (the whole reason I started playing bass right there), Juliette Lewis, Brody Dalle (also previously mentioned), Gwen Stefani (from 15 years ago), etc.

Jessica...where's D'Arcy? :nooooo:

no but seriously, did you forget her, or have you always just seen her as non-influencial?

Jessica...where's D'Arcy? :nooooo:

no but seriously, did you forget her, or have you always just seen her as non-influencial?

maybe she doesn't look up to crack-buying vagrants who "used to play bass in a band"

no but seriously, d'arcy is a swell fella

maybe she doesn't look up to crack-buying vagrants who "used to play bass in a band"

no but seriously, d'arcy is a swell fella

Well she did mention Courtney Love.

And I wonder if girls don't pick it up because they're just not interested, or if they don't pick it up because they think it's not a "girl" thing?

I do think it's a bit of both. But to be honest, all my guy friends who play instruments think it's cool that I play. Some of them underestimate me, though... one time when I was in a band for a day I played "Cherub Rock" because we were talking about songs I wanted to cover (they had a list of their own) and they were just like, "Woah, you really are good..."

They never asked me back after that. I like to think I intimidated them, but I never asked them why...

(EDIT: I'm not trying to brag; We all know Cherub Rock isn't really that difficult. I was 13 at the time, though, and had only been playing seriously for about a year, same as the guys, so I guess they probably thought it was pretty cool that I wasn't into just playing powerchords :p)

That's too bad. I work with a guy nurse and i think he's one of the best. Men I find to be more straight to the point of it. which i really like a lot.

It really IS too bad. And it's stupid... I will never understand any form of sexism. It's just silly to me.

Jessica...where's D'Arcy?

no but seriously, did you forget her, or have you always just seen her as non-influencial?

I was trying to think of the people who fronted a band. I could list a whole mess of gals who were just in the band... D'arcy of course, Nikki from Silversun Pickups, Charlotte from the Subways (just because I feel like if I performed like she does I'd probably pop my knee out), and I'm SURE many more if I thought about it more :p

But yeah, of course D'arcy was influential. Mostly because she didn't make being a girl an issue. She just... was a band member. I think everyone can learn a lot from that.

I try not to be a crazy feminist, because in reality all I want is to be regarded as a human being, not a girl. It's not that I'm unhappy about being a female, it's just that I'd rather be seen as an equal. I think D'arcy is awesome because she didn't care that she was a girl, and she didn't try to be anything but herself.

skipgo 28
mayday 15
i_adore_adore 11

good to see skipgo is still neglecting her kids.

Its unfair to assume Kurt "killed himself" when discussing this thread topic. That is not fact.

i adore adore, when will your new album be out? =)

it's just that I'd rather be seen as an equal. I think D'arcy is awesome because she didn't care that she was a girl, and she didn't try to be anything but herself.

you are equal. do you have reason to believe otherwise?<-i certaintly hope not

but i think women can still be women while assuming leadership roles. you dont have to be anti woman.

Darcy did a great job of this. She often portrayed an image of classic beauty rather than fighting against it. Which isn't an easy thing to pull off in the world of rock. But BC supported this too. His videos were often classically beautiful compared to what most other rockbands put into the videos. disarm, tonight tonight, ava adore, more that i cant think of right now. it got a bit dark during adore but the art still had classic undertones. i love this about BC.:)

Blech, this is almost as bad as the stupid Nirvana vs. Pearl Jam feud bullshit. Who cares? It happened 15+ years ago. Nobody still alive actually involved in any of this actually cares anymore.

Let it go.

i adore adore, when will your new album be out? =)

By the end of the year at the rate I'm writing... ha. I'm not feeling very creative here lately.

Blech, this is almost as bad as the stupid Nirvana vs. Pearl Jam feud bullshit. Who cares? It happened 15+ years ago. Nobody still alive actually involved in any of this actually cares anymore.

That is a terrible post, my friend. Perhaps even worse than mine.

you are equal. do you have reason to believe otherwise?<-i certaintly hope not


Either you're naive or you're surrounded by incredibly accepting people (could be either one, for sure). I know that I'm equal, it's the rest of the world that I'm trying to convince. You know what's funny? I got told the other day that the saxophone is a "man's instrument." How ridiculous is that? I mean, it doesn't discourage me from playing; if anything it makes me want to get even better. I just think it's all very strange... And of course their ignorance isn't going to make me say, "Oh, they're right, they're better than me because they pee standing up." So of course I don't believe I'm actually inferior to anyone, it's just that some people are stuck in the '50s.

By the end of the year at the rate I'm writing... ha. I'm not feeling very creative here lately.



That is a terrible post, my friend. Perhaps even worse than mine.



Either you're naive or you're surrounded by incredibly accepting people (could be either one, for sure). I know that I'm equal, it's the rest of the world that I'm trying to convince.

i dont need to be accepted by other people to be who i am. :)

if i could give you any advice it would be not to waste energy on convincing people of who you are. just be it. and that is all you need to do. :)



"You know what's funny? I got told the other day that the saxophone is a "man's instrument."

my sister and brother played this instrument in High School. :)

By the end of the year at the rate I'm writing... ha. I'm not feeling very creative here lately.



We'll be looking out for it end of 2008! I Adore Adore's debut :)

so back to the subject at hand...anyone think its fucked up that CL was screwing billy just 3-4 weeks after kurt died. [IT IS NOT A FACT HE KILLED HIMSELF] I feel thats a pretty low thing for both of them to do. It also seems quite disrespectful to kurt. :rant:

We'll be looking out for it end of 2008! I Adore Adore's debut

I've already recorded two CDs. hahahaha, but I appreciate the enthusiasm.

so back to the subject at hand...

No. That subject sux.

so back to the subject at hand...anyone think its fucked up that CL was screwing billy just 3-4 weeks after kurt died. :

Is this a fact? I'll be the first to admit I don't know a whole lot about the BC/CL/KC love triangle, so feel free to fill in the blanks. But if it is true, in times of extreme grief after losing a loved one, I'm sure the need to be close to someone and feel loved is overwhelming. Might seem a little tacky from the outside, but I can understand it.

If he started to date her again now, that would be harder to understand. For me at least.

i adore adore, feminsim in music is a curious subject. It's funny how four guys in a band is just a band, but four girls in a band is a girlband, isn't it? The girls I know who are musicians often complain about having to answer typical "girl"-questions in interviews. You know about having babies, and what it's like to be a girl musician. The music scene where I live (Oslo, Norway) is sometimes very sexist. Guybands are suporting eachother, whilst ignoring the girls. Often the bigger bands take other smaller guybands with them as supporting acts, because they don't wanna deal with all the drama of having girls with them on the road and so on.

It's strange, because these guys are for equal rights in theory, but don't practice what they preach I guess. It also a wellknown fact that a girl guitarist often have to be twice as good as any guy to get respect. You talked about some people are stuck in the 50ties. Seems to me that this goes for most of the music industry. Music journalists included. And I have yet to meet one female popstar/singer who hasn't had record execs wanting her to "sex it up a little".

thats because girl bands aren't as good. duh.

I've already recorded two CDs. hahahaha, but I appreciate the enthusiasm.


will you release it publically? or you dont want to get into that

is this really a catherine wheel thread with FIVE FUCKING PAGES?
minus rep to you all

there's always gonna be more male musicians than women and you know why?

cause playing is a good way for men to fuck more chicks

and girls don't need to :smoke:

I've already recorded two CDs. hahahaha, but I appreciate the enthusiasm.



No. That subject sux.

No, the subject of your music sucks when its in the smashing pumpkins message board...as opposed to the general music discussion. I don't care about your music when i am reading a thread with billy/kurt/courtney as the subject of focus. i guess at this point i may as well exploit my own music to make a point. I am a Pisces, don't fuck with me.

To listen to my music please go here: http://www.myspace.com/miyaegie

squaimous was cool.

Could we please let Kurt Cobain rest in peace? He's been dead 13 years, and Billy and Courtney didn't really get together afterwards, so nothing new's gonna come out of this thread.

Also, when did mayday get back? See, I had all those pesky trolls on ignore, but this one. *presses button*

"Grant says one story had Courtney grieving at home, while she was actually at the Canyon Ranch in Arizona, bragging to him that she was sleeping with Billy Corgan. This was only three weeks after Kurt was found dead."

grant is a pi that cl hired during that time in 94.
heres the link...it is interesting somewhat: http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/timeline/aftermath_courtney.shtml

billy scores on the rebound

oh dear god, here we go with the fucking conspiracy theories.

seriously. i wish he would have just died taking a shit or something. would have been way more fun to talk about

gus van sant's Last Days anyone watched this movie? It's not exactly what I d call watchable but I loved it personally

Kurt Cobain was a highly artistic person and fairly talented songwriter, as well as a chronically depressive, deeply mentally (and perhaps physically) troubled individual who apparently lacked the kind of skills necessary to effectively cope with however he perceived the psychological obstacles in his life. That he could have taken a massive dose of heroin and decided to end it all in that particular moment with a gun shot certainly seems a plausible conclusion to his life. I've never gotten what the hell people find so "unfathomable" about that.

Nirvana is good band for the particular niche they filled, but I've always been rather puzzled by the cult of hero worship and outlandish praise surrounding the band. I don't fault the band or Kurt Cobain at all for that; they were simply doing their own thing. It's the others that put them up on a pedestal, for god knows what reason. I think really what most irks me about how others perceived them is that there were plenty of other bands at this time who were arguably far more talented and made music which was certainly as captivating and interesting (if not moreso) than their own.
I mean, I'll be honest and say that it gets up my arse whenever I'm regaled with how fucking "great" and "revolutionary" Nevermind was...when at least half a dozen alternative/grunge rock bands had come before them and actually achieved notable success with the public. It DOES piss me off when I have to hear this bullshit about how Nirvana "paved the way" for the Pumpkins in 1992. Holy fucking hell...the bands were more or less parallel (temporally and stylistically) and Gish was even released just before Nirvana's "breakthrough," not to mention that Butch Vig honed his production skills on SP first. But they imply that SP was simply doing all this after the fact. I'm tired on not hearing how significantly SP also impacted the rock music scene and the sound of numerous other bands that came after them. And I'm being completely objective when I say that in this respect the Pumpkins totally got fucked up the ass.

And as as a female who plays guitar...I can safely say that I would have never considered D'arcy a role model under any circumstances. Why? She's just a bass player, and really only a mediocre one that that. I'm interested in bringing the rock...not Lillith Fair shit. Even if I can't quite play like Eddie Van Halen, it is sure as hell what I aspire to. Why should I give two shits if she's female or not? That's inconsequential to me, just like someone saying that I should vote for Hillary Clinton solely for showing some kind of "womens' solidarity".

this board SUCKS

oh dear god, here we go with the fucking conspiracy theories.

Honestly its not about a conspiracy theory.

Its highly tragic that something that is not fact (Kurt killed himself) is seen as a truth in society. Young people and those who weren't connected to the scene believe only what has been reported (ie Kurt killed himself).

Kurt/Nirvana had a huge impact and lasting legacy. How many kids have/will kill themselvs because they believe their hero chose such an end??

That he could have taken a massive dose of heroin and decided to end it all in that particular moment with a gun shot certainly seems a plausible conclusion to his life. I've never gotten what the hell people find so "unfathomable" about that.

That massive dose of heroin happened to be three times the lethal limit according to the coroners report. A person can't function, let alone fire off a shotgun while incompacitated.

i was 20 years old when kurt died, and was "connected to the scene" (for lack of better word), and i do believe he killed himself.
as stumpycat said, there are plenty of reasons to believe that he committed suicide. He was depressed, he had horrible stomach pain and could barely eat, was addicted to heroin, had tried to kill himself just months earlier; why would you think it's unfathomable that the guy would kill himself? come on, it's a conspiracy theory, plain and simple.

let's not beat the dead horse further; no one here can say anything that hasn't already been said in the nearly 14 years since it happened.

there are just as many reasons to believe he didnt.

i m not saying he didnt. im not ignoring that he could have. the whole truth hasn't been exposed.

its plainly ignorant to suggest that its concrete either way. and as ive previously mentioned its destructive to society.

skipgo (and others) seem to have some issues with Nirvana overshadowing the Pumpkins in pop culture. i would say this leads you to suggest kurt was some asswhore punk who justifiably killed himself. does this help you sleep at nite?

actually i have no trouble at all with nirvana overshadowing the pumpkins. I couldn't care less about how the public feels about smashing pumpkins' worth as opposed to nirvana's. that's the kind of shit a 15 year old cares about. I just don't understand why the man is held up to be some sort of deity, when he clearly was not. I would feel the same if it had been billy who'd gone down that path and ended up martyred instead of kurt.
You're last comment there shows your stupidity. If you'd read my posts, I said that I was a fan of nirvana, and that i'm sure kurt was a decent guy. Now please go fuck yourself.

I've found that people with narrow-minded attitudes don't give a shit... Talking is a waste of time when the person you're talking to doesn't give a shit about being open to someone else's perspective.

...and i think you really jumped to the wrong conclusion after reading the post i made this morning. Which is probably entirely my own fault.

oh dear god, here we go with the fucking conspiracy theories.

i why would you think it's unfathomable that the guy would kill himself? come on, it's a conspiracy theory, plain and simple.

_

Now please go fuck yourself.

what are you on? paxil? xanax?

ok, point taken.
i can open my mind to the possibilty that something else happened, but i do feel <i>pretty confident</i> that it was indeed a suicide.
Still, I never once said that kurt was "some asswhore punk who justifiably killed himself", or anything close to that. There may be people on this board who would say something like that (duo, i'm looking in your direction), but I'm not one of them.

what are you on? paxil? xanax?

you say a lot of stupid things, don't you?

to add to my previous post; i can open my mind and talk with someone who is willing to be rational and not throw around random insults and make baseless assumptions about people they don't know. You don't seem to be falling into that category, though.

to clarify, I told you to go fuck yourself because you said: "skipgo (and others) seem to have some issues with Nirvana overshadowing the Pumpkins in pop culture. i would say this leads you to suggest kurt was some asswhore punk who justifiably killed himself. does this help you sleep at nite?"

before that, i had no issue with you and would be willing to discuss things in an adult manner.

you say a lot of stupid things, don't you?

i can open my mind and talk with someone who is willing to be rational and not throw around random insults... You don't seem to be falling into that category, though.

nm

This whole thread/board is rife with "baseless assumptions about people they dont know".

Skipgo, have you completely dismissed any evidence that would lead one to believe Kurt didnt killed himself?

Why do you resent Kurts image? If its not because of Pumpkins jealousy what is it? You said you were a fan and even went as far as saying Kurt was prolly a decent guy. So inconsistent you are. (I don't mean that as an insult)

"Grant says one story had Courtney grieving at home, while she was actually at the Canyon Ranch in Arizona, bragging to him that she was sleeping with Billy Corgan. This was only three weeks after Kurt was found dead."

grant is a pi that cl hired during that time in 94.
heres the link...it is interesting somewhat: http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/timeline/aftermath_courtney.shtml


if this is true than i'm permanently cures of my feelings of love for BC

i read a rollingstone with her on the cover- a bit about her greiving process and i wasn't convinced but who knows everyone is different. i threw the magazine out because i wouldn't have it near my living space. it disgusted me. but here i am wasting minutes of my life thinking about something that i think is disgusting. shame on me

how is it inconsistent? I didn't say he shouldn't have been successful, I said he shouldn't be considered some god-like figure who did no wrong. Are you paying any attention? There's a distinct difference. I'm a huge fan of the pumpkins, and if billy had died in 1994 and was consequently given some god-like status, I would find that undeserved as well. It has nothing to do with my personal feelings about kurt, and it's not the least bit inconsistent.

And if you go back and read my posts (not only on this thread), I'm one of the main people who always says "you didn't know that person, you can't really make that assumption." Didn't you see where i told mayday that she doesn't know courtney love and therefore has no idea what she's really like? Just because other people like to make assumptions and speculate on everything under the sun, it doesn't mean i do it, so don't throw that at me.

if this is true than i'm permanently cured of my feelings of love for BC

just because some guy said it doesn't make it true. Even if courtney said it, it doesn't make it true. I'm sure only bc and courtney know for sure. I'd like to think billy isn't that much of a jerk.

just because some guy said it doesn't make it true. Even if courtney said it, it doesn't make it true. I'm sure only bc and courtney know for sure. I'd like to think billy isn't that much of a jerk.

that's why i said "if"

but his "love" for her is strange to me. unless it is out of great compassion.


i see a lot of good in Billy Corgan, and i see a lot of talent that is not being fully expressed, but maybe it's like how Billy see's Courtney. maybe i see things that arent' really there. but i still believe they are. i want him to know what it is to really be alive and really be happy and doing good. i really would like to see this happen for him.

Even if courtney said it, it doesn't make it true.

:rofl:

it was dave grohl.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.tmz.com/media/2007/01/0105_love_corrigan_inf.jpg

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.tmz.com/media/2007/01/0105_love_corrigan_inf.jpg

:hurl:

just because some guy said it doesn't make it true. Even if courtney said it, it doesn't make it true. I'm sure only bc and courtney know for sure. I'd like to think billy isn't that much of a jerk.

How does this make Billy a jerk? If anyone is a jerk here, it's Courtney. Or are you thinking Billy is jerk for taking advantage of Courtney in an emotional state?

Just to be clear, I don't think the sex, if it happened, make any of them jerks. Like I said before, in that horrible situations like that, people do strange things.

i don't know, respect for the dead maybe? If someone's body is barely cold, you shouldn't fuck their wife.

the thought of it makes me nauseated.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.tmz.com/media/2007/01/0105_love_corrigan_inf.jpg

by far the low point of 2007 for me

i don't know, respect for the dead maybe? If someone's body is barely cold, you shouldn't fuck their wife.

By all means, it's not a classy move, and I'm not saying it is. But I still think it's hard to judge people in that situation. After seeing what suicides does to the people close, well, stranger things have happened.

billy is a jerk you stupid noob.

Oh, and what's a noob? When people insult me, I like to know what they are saying. Thank you. :)

i'm pretty sure he was fucking her even before he was dead.

Yeah, except that whole part where you know absolutely nothing of Courtney's or Billy's, or Kurt's personal lives. Jesus christ you people are pathetic.

what's a noob? really?
that's like mayday asking 'what's a troll'.

too bad E! wasnt as big then as it is now. they would have sorted all of this out for us in days :erm:


really who cares when/if they fucked, and who are we to judge if/when they did it?

what's a noob? really?
that's like mayday asking 'what's a troll'.

Yeah, really.

what's a noob? really?
that's like mayday asking 'what's a troll'.

deep

deep

isn't it though? ;)

This thread got a whole lot funnier while I was at school.

no, it still sucks

werd

it does suck.

Okay, you're right.

so from what i gathered here:

billy killed kurt then fucked in his blood

that sounds like something from Pink Flamingos.


but a little more disgusting.

directors cut

there's a market for everything

skipgo (and others) seem to have some issues with Nirvana overshadowing the Pumpkins in pop culture. i would say this leads you to suggest kurt was some asswhore punk who justifiably killed himself. does this help you sleep at nite?
Please work on your comprehension skills here. I already stated I have no problem with Nirvana or Kurt Cobain at all--like I stated, they were just doing "their thing" and did it pretty well. What's irritating to me is other people's overblown reaction to them, not the band themselves.
And, um, no...actually I find it kind of personally disturbing that Kurt Cobain was apparently so troubled that he had to end his life in that way. It's fucked up when people--especially young people--feel they have no choice but to kill themselves as the lesser of two evils.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Cy5KjaAS7nY&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Cy5KjaAS7nY&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

I have no problem with Nirvana or Kurt Cobain at all--like I stated, they were just doing "their thing" and did it pretty well. What's irritating to me is other people's overblown reaction to them

What irritates me is people's overblown reactions (ie undeserved hate) to things that are popular, mainstream, or iconic.

what irritates me is when people pay NO ATTENTION to what anyone says. No one sayd they HATE kurt, or anything remotely like that. You have a seriously thick skull man.

here. read this really slowly. read it a few times if that helps:

I DO NOT HATE KURT COBAIN. I DO NOT THINK HE SHOUD HAVE DIED, I DO NOT THINK IT WAS "JUSTIFIED". I DO NOT HATE THE FACT THAT HE IS MAINSTREAM. I DO NOT HATE THAT HE IS MORE "POPULAR" THAN BILLY CORGAN.

What I DID say is that I don't UNDERSTAND why he is seen as a GOD LIKE FIGURE who did NO WRONG. which he WAS NOT.

If you can't show that you somehow comprehend what I'm ACTUALLY SAYING, rather than once again making your incorrect assumptions ("you all hate him", "you all think he was justified in killing himself", etc), then I'm done talking to you.

Del/Ban/Killgore/Etc/HeySkippy

hey there! :)

I'd also like to note that Fattening Ass' avatar was one of my favorite Megaman bosses. Megaman II, if I recall. This has nothing to do with the topoic... or the current conversation. But uhh.. does that ever matter?

I'd also like to note that Fattening Ass' avatar was one of my favorite Megaman bosses. Megaman II, if I recall. This has nothing to do with the topoic... or the current conversation. But uhh.. does that ever matter?

i think it might be good to steer this in a new direction.

what irritates me is when people pay NO ATTENTION to what anyone says. No one sayd they HATE kurt, or anything remotely like that. You have a seriously thick skull man.

here. read this really slowly. read it a few times if that helps:

I DO NOT HATE KURT COBAIN. I DO NOT THINK HE SHOUD HAVE DIED, I DO NOT THINK IT WAS "JUSTIFIED". I DO NOT HATE THE FACT THAT HE IS MAINSTREAM. I DO NOT HATE THAT HE IS MORE "POPULAR" THAN BILLY CORGAN.

What I DID say is that I don't UNDERSTAND why he is seen as a GOD LIKE FIGURE who did NO WRONG. which he WAS NOT.

If you can't show that you somehow comprehend what I'm ACTUALLY SAYING, rather than once again making your incorrect assumptions ("you all hate him", "you all think he was justified in killing himself", etc), then I'm done talking to you.


Did you read what I typed? Look at the quote dammit. I wasnt talking to you. I was referring to stumpycat's observation that he is annoyed by "peoples overblown reactions" to the band and Kurt. I did not suggest anyone hated them.

But seriously, meds? You have some anger issues. I dont mean that or anything Ive said as an insult or attack on you. Breathe a little bit and calm the fuck down.

i'm not mad, sherm old buddy old pal. It's just a messageboard.

ALL CAPS = :mad:

ALL CAPS (in this case) = emphasis.
gimmie a hug.

somewhat frustrated, yes; mad, no.
If netphoria was going to make me upset, i would've left a long time ago.

gimmie a hug.


beaten to hug

sherm must now spread some hug around before he can hug skipgo again

yep.

I ignored this thread for a couple days, and it definitely turned into something that sucks.

lol at this thread... omg 9/11 was an inside job, omg we never landed on the moon, omg the government is hiding alien space craft... omg some killed kurt and the police covered it up... lol, i mean seriously... seriously... seriously?

wait.

we landed on the moon?

THE MOON!!
wow.

I actually watched a special on the whole moon-landing controversy, and they had some good evidence suggesting it didn't really happen.

Weren't we all trying to freak out the Soviets when that happened because they got their satellite or whatever... and then we were all, "OMG, let's go to the moon so we're better than they are!"

I believe it's possible that the government made it up to reassure Americans of our superiority and show the Soviets that we can play their little game.

That said, please don't try to argue with me, because it's been YEARS since I've seen that documentary, and I don't really know what I believe. It's not an issue that I really care about.

we went to the moon in 1969
not 1970, but a year sooner
we went to the moon in 1969
thats when we made a landing that was lunar!

god bless you even stevens

I actually watched a special on the whole moon-landing controversy, and they had some good evidence suggesting it didn't really happen.

Weren't we all trying to freak out the Soviets when that happened because they got their satellite or whatever... and then we were all, "OMG, let's go to the moon so we're better than they are!"

I believe it's possible that the government made it up to reassure Americans of our superiority and show the Soviets that we can play their little game.

That said, please don't try to argue with me, because it's been YEARS since I've seen that documentary, and I don't really know what I believe. It's not an issue that I really care about.

http://firstrung.co.uk/dbimgs/iStock_can%20of%20worms.jpg

yucky.

god bless you even stevens

best saturday morning sitcom ever

we went to the moon in 1969
not 1970, but a year sooner
we went to the moon in 1969
thats when we made a landing that was lunar!

god bless you even stevens

I actually did love this show.

What irritates me is people's overblown reactions (ie undeserved hate) to things that are popular, mainstream, or iconic.
You can honestly say that you have never encountered a pop culture phenomena that doesn't leave you scratching your head a bit as to what in the hell people find so "incredible" about it? Especially to the point that it seems to overshadow everything else around it, and for no immediately obvious reason? But people are a bit odd in their reactions to certain things, you know?

I should also note I have love for such generic and mainstream rock offerings as Led Zepplin and The Doors...and sometimes even Lynard Skynard...which I have been informed at various points is kind of "uncool" to appreciate. I just like what I like, and don't hold its popularity for or against my enjoyment of it.

fair enough

I should also note I have love for such generic and mainstream rock offerings as Led Zepplin and The Doors...and sometimes even Lynard Skynard...which I have been informed at various points is kind of "uncool" to appreciate. I just like what I like, and don't hold its popularity for or against my enjoyment of it.

same here, stumpycat. I've always liked stuff that was "uncool" (case in point, smashing pumpkins). In fact, caring about what other people like rather than what you like yourself is just stupid. I wonder how someone can consider themselves true fans of music if they limit themselves to only listening to what their peers accept.

This is a retarded, inane, thread.