ok people, lets keep the level of participation up.

you remember how this works. you pick the song you like on zeitgeist THE LEAST of the remaining choices, and every 6 days (or so) we'll start a new thread/poll with the least liked song removed....and we'll do this until we're down to a champion.

Poll limit is 12 so we started with the standard album tracks only. Poll is PUBLIC and will be open 6 days (we'll reduce further if voting drops off sooner).


Round 1 loser was Pomp & Circumstances :cry:
Round 2 loser was For God & Country :unhappy:
Round 3 losers (due to a tie) were (Come On) Let's Go and Neverlost:goodevil:
Round 4 loser was Starz :erm:

FUUFKNC TNRANTNRNLRUA!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:!!

fuck youuuu davin!

idiots voting for US havnt seen or heard it live, seeing Jimmy play that is unfuckingbelievable

fuck youuuu davin!

:smoke:

DOOMSDAY CLOCK

Tarantula is the worst Pumpkins Song EVER followed by DC!!! Dump those bitches!!!

I can't believe that starz lost over that's the way? Who else do you guys listen to: Linkin Park?

fuck you too jczeroman, luna_pumpkin!

and i_adore_adore~

ttw.

It's just bland.

Whats bland about TTW is the dead pan vocals and production, but it really is a great tune. I can't comprehend this lack of disdain for straight mediocrity like Tarantula and DC!!!! AHHH!!

i expect to have a full grown beard by the time we move on to round six

Look at that, I cast the first vote for 7 Shades of Black. Once again it'll be a wasted vote, thought about putting mine to better use and voting for United States, but I just dislike 7SOB so much I'm gonna stick with it 'til it's gone. This is the only song left in the poll that I really dislike, (Come On) and Pomp being the others.

Doomsday Clock again. The last two have been difficult since the only song I tend to skip is Neverlost.

Ok, so Starz wasn't a big surprise, though I certainly wouldn't have voted for it for at least another few rounds. So what's it gonna be this round, TTW or United States?
I've been voting for TTW since round 2, and I'll keep at it til it's gone.

We should place bets on who the final Zeitgeist survivor will be. My MCIS 3x vinyl says Bleeding the Orchid.

TTW. burn.

i don't really skip any of these songs except 7 shades. just seems cheap. not even fun live.

i expect to have a full grown beard by the time we move on to round six

i'll remember to bump my thread for you then

As much as people bitch about the lack of instant gratification on this whole project, it's yielding some interesting results. I would have never expected Starz to go this early. I also don't get the hate for That's the Way. And I'm surprised that Tarantula and Doomsday Clock haven't gotten a lot of votes thus far.

You gotta admit, there are more wide ranging opinions about this album than any other in the whole Billy catalogue. Sure, there other albums fans either love or hate, but generally people are pretty uniform in what they love or hate. It seems that with Zeitgeist there's a lot of "one man's garbage is another man's treasure" going on moreso than with any previous album.

As much as people bitch about the lack of instant gratification on this whole project, it's yielding some interesting results. I would have never expected Starz to go this early. I also don't get the hate for That's the Way. And I'm surprised that Tarantula and Doomsday Clock haven't gotten a lot of votes thus far.

You gotta admit, there are more wide ranging opinions about this album than any other in the whole Billy catalogue. Sure, there other albums fans either love or hate, but generally people are pretty uniform in what they love or hate. It seems that with Zeitgeist there's a lot of "one man's garbage is another man's treasure" going on moreso than with any previous album.


I feel like z is kinda of a sampler. A few songs sound like zwan, a few sound tfe, then theirs some stuff that sounds kinda spish. I like Z still think it's thier lowest album. I really didn't see ttw going at all since it' smy fav song off the entire thing. oh well

Corganist, I pretty much agree with you
On a related note, no matter what songs people like, I think pretty much everyone agrees it's not some masterpiece by any means... on every other SP album you have at least some people who would argue it's their 'best'.

idiots voting for US havnt seen or heard it live, seeing Jimmy play that is unfuckingbelievable

By that logic, I'd say people who have heard TTW from that acoustic set in Berlin and are voting for it to be removed are especially nuts.

United States at least needs to go before we can think of booting TTW.

smashkin33, you broke my heart. :(

As much as people bitch about the lack of instant gratification on this whole project, it's yielding some interesting results. I would have never expected Starz to go this early. I also don't get the hate for That's the Way. And I'm surprised that Tarantula and Doomsday Clock haven't gotten a lot of votes thus far.

You gotta admit, there are more wide ranging opinions about this album than any other in the whole Billy catalogue. Sure, there other albums fans either love or hate, but generally people are pretty uniform in what they love or hate. It seems that with Zeitgeist there's a lot of "one man's garbage is another man's treasure" going on moreso than with any previous album.

This is all very true.

I'm so shocked by the hate for That's the Way that I've become hyper-defensive about it. I'm voting off songs I like less simply because the songs I like best are in jeopardy, if that makes sense. United States may or may not have been my vote this round, but since it's neck and neck with That's the Way, I decided to cast my vote for United States. Plus I usually skip that track because I don't feel that it's always worth the wait to get to the parts I like.

smashkin33, you broke my heart. :(
i'm sorry. different strokes for differnt folks. :erm: insert witty comeback here!! :erm:

i'm sorry. different strokes for differnt folks. :erm: insert witty comeback here!! :erm:


http://www.doctorsecrets.com/your-medicine/stroke-cause-picture.gif

really, 7 shades, you skip? i seem to always skip Doomsday clock alot. I'm not quite sure why but that's how it is right now

it's a scary song

I don't know why davin has organized this; he loves every track. if you asked him to order his least favorite to favorite, he'd choose suicide.

I haven't decided my vote yet. Songs I like are on the chopping block now. I will be back with some strategery later.

people who don't like that's the way or think that it's bland need to listen to the damn song. really closely.

then again i feel like it has an almost machina-esque vibe to it. which explains why i like it so much more than everyone else seems to

:-/

i voted tarantula, by the way. good track....but pretty meh in the long run.

im sad that starz is out. im starting to really like that song

Whats bland about TTW is the dead pan vocals and production

both of these things help make the song great. you're nuts.

people who don't like that's the way or think that it's bland need to listen to the damn song. really closely.

then again i feel like it has an almost machina-esque vibe to it. which explains why i like it so much more than everyone else seems to

:-/

i voted tarantula, by the way. good track....but pretty meh in the long run.

I do listen to it. And I like most of Machina. The song has a good bassline and the solo is pretty great, but SP has done this before, and better. It's a very calculated song, like Billy thought 'I need to write a rocking love song' and this came out in 30 mins. That's a bit extreme but I'm just making a point... it's lazy songwriting in my opinion. Billy can do better, and does on other songs on this record.

I do listen to it. And I like most of Machina. The song has a good bassline and the solo is pretty great, but SP has done this before, and better. It's a very calculated song, like Billy thought 'I need to write a rocking love song' and this came out in 30 mins. That's a bit extreme but I'm just making a point... it's lazy songwriting in my opinion. Billy can do better, and does on other songs on this record.

if he put this out in 30 minutes then he should put a cap on how long he can take to write a song and then run with it.

This is really hard! I reallllly like all of these songs! I voted for Doomsday Clock, but I think I should have voted for Bleeding the Orchid instead...not that either vote makes a difference. Bleeding the Orchid was an instant favorite, so it doesnt have the "grew on me" power that the other songs do.

U.S. again.

I think it'll get booted this time, actually.

And Davin, you need to stop adding smiley commentary on the songs -- it ruins the serious nature of these deliberations.

Sometimes songs written quickly are great. I even like TTW. I just think the other ones left are better... and I don't even know if he wrote it quickly or not, and obviously 30 mins is exageratted.
I don't know if anyone else agrees with me as to why they like it *the least*.

Also, I like the background vocals a lot on this... they work well for this song, the layers upon layers. I will give it that too ;)

I do listen to it. And I like most of Machina. The song has a good bassline and the solo is pretty great, but SP has done this before, and better. It's a very calculated song, like Billy thought 'I need to write a rocking love song' and this came out in 30 mins. That's a bit extreme but I'm just making a point... it's lazy songwriting in my opinion. Billy can do better, and does on other songs on this record.
The XM special that aired a couple weeks ago had a portion where Billy explained the evolution of TTW, and it kinda dispels the idea you're putting forth here. If TTW was calculated at all, it was to avoid the appearance of lazy songwriting.

The XM special that aired a couple weeks ago had a portion where Billy explained the evolution of TTW, and it kinda dispels the idea you're putting forth here. If TTW was calculated at all, it was to avoid the appearance of lazy songwriting.

I agree, maybe 'too calculated' is a better term than lazy. I would even say contrived.

He was saying it sounded like it came straight out of MCIS (if memory serves), and he wanted to make it sound different. But then he talks about 7 Shades (in a different interview, I don't remember which), and talks about getting into his '96 persona and writing from the perspective on purpose. This doesn't really apply to the TTW topic but I think it's interesting that he wants completely opposite things at the same time (even if for different songs)...

I want to listen to that XM thing again, I did enjoy the performances.

I can't believe that starz lost over that's the way? Who else do you guys listen to: Linkin Park?

Tell it like it is, my brother.

look at all the gen board crawlers coming out

BTL, tarantula and orchid have zero chance of being voted out this round the way things are going.

i vote BTL again, fwiw.

my criteria on this has found me generally liking virtually all the tracks to a certain extent, and voting out those with the most parts that detract from the whole.

I'm not really understanding the hatred for some of these songs, but I had to vote TTW. It's the only one of the songs left that has that Zwan feel, (not that that's really all that bad) and doesn't nearly rock as hard as the others.

Anyone hating on DC or 7 Shades, in my opinion, is a complete fucktard.

And if you don't care for Tarantula it's obvious you have no soul. The guitar solo in this song is legendary and the song, all in all, rocks ass.

I've recently had a bit of a "That's the Way" renaissance - I really do like the third minute a lot. I've lost interest in "Bleeding the Orchid," which sounds more Pumpkinsy but the bridge and the chorus kinda suck. And the Billy-chorus sounds atrocious.

Anyways, why are idiots voting for "United States"? I can see why the impatient might not like how long it is but it's so hardcore and it's the one song where the crazy RTB-style vocal layering and delaying actually might help the song... Well, I guess the choruses of Billys in "BTL" are pretty cool too.

you don't know the meaning of 'hardcore'

And if you don't care for Tarantula it's obvious you have no soul. The guitar solo in this song is legendary and the song, all in all, rocks ass.
i have as much soul as any ghost, buddy.

i actually like all of these songs, i'm gonna just wait til the end

k i voted for that's the way because united states deserves to stay for a few more rounds at least

As much as people bitch about the lack of instant gratification on this whole project, it's yielding some interesting results. I would have never expected Starz to go this early. I also don't get the hate for That's the Way. And I'm surprised that Tarantula and Doomsday Clock haven't gotten a lot of votes thus far.

You gotta admit, there are more wide ranging opinions about this album than any other in the whole Billy catalogue. Sure, there other albums fans either love or hate, but generally people are pretty uniform in what they love or hate. It seems that with Zeitgeist there's a lot of "one man's garbage is another man's treasure" going on moreso than with any previous album.
that's because this place got "diversified" by 100s of idiots joining all at once upon Zeitgeist's release.

that's because this place got "diversified" by 100s of idiots joining all at once upon Zeitgeist's release.
I don't buy it. If you look at who's voting for which songs, there doesn't seem to be any kind of clear pattern to it where newbs are voting for certain songs and people who've been here longer are voting for others. Even people who've been here a while don't seem to have come to any kind of consensus on what's best/least bad.

<font size=10>SUCK MY TINY COCK!!!</FONT>

FUUFKNC TNRANTNRNLRUA!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:!!
agreed.

agreed.
HEar, HEAR!!

HEar, HEAR!!
SIGNED!!!!!!!!:noway::noway::noway:!!!

<img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon2.gif"><img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon2.gif"><img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon2.gif"><img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon2.gif"><img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon2.gif"><img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon2.gif"><img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon2.gif"><img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon2.gif"><img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon2.gif"><img src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon2.gif">

US

that's because this place got "diversified" by 100s of idiots joining all at once upon Zeitgeist's release.

HEY you're radiotyping, i mean, stereotyping, stereotyping is bad for society you know

I do listen to it. And I like most of Machina. The song has a good bassline and the solo is pretty great, but SP has done this before, and better. It's a very calculated song, like Billy thought 'I need to write a rocking love song' and this came out in 30 mins. That's a bit extreme but I'm just making a point... it's lazy songwriting in my opinion. Billy can do better, and does on other songs on this record.

wow. You just articulated my opinion on the song exactly.

BTO - GTFO

I don't buy it.

Thats because you're an idiot. He has it completely right.

Voted TTW for the 3rd time in a row. Can we get rid of this Turd already? It's a really boring, stereotypical, syrupy love song that has basically nothing interesting going for it other than the fact that the solo is sort of neat.

Who honestly likes 7 Shades of Black Cock?

You people voting for U.S. actually like TTW, 7 Shades, and the other songs better??? Something is wrong with y'all. Do you completely ignore the drumming on U.S., the killer ending, the overall heaviness (by far heaviest on the album), all just because "it's too long" and "the middle sucks"??

Let me ask again: TTW is better than U.S.??? I don't hate TTW, but let's be real here.

Who honestly likes 7 Shades of Black Cock?
i do. (I'M TALKING ABOUT THE SONG HERE you sick bastards)
besides tarantula & DC it was the first song i heard on zeigeist, and i was pulled in by the intro. i like it a ton.

You people voting for U.S. actually like TTW, 7 Shades, and the other songs better??? Something is wrong with y'all. Do you completely ignore the drumming on U.S., the killer ending, the overall heaviness (by far heaviest on the album), all just because "it's too long" and "the middle sucks"??

Let me ask again: TTW is better than U.S.??? I don't hate TTW, but let's be real here.

i hope u.s. doesn't go yet. there are worse things, especially considering it's not even a bad song at all.

I'm reserving my vote in case i need to save United States, but it looks like Thats the Way is on its way out.

This just in:
Through Jimmy's drumming performance in US, it wins immunity in the next round! So pick something else in round 6. I recommend Bring the Light.

i am going to stab every last one of you that voted for TTW.

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/07/47/23474707.jpg

^ are you black?

im way black.

http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Science_and_Body/Mouths/Eyes_and_teeth.gif

is that you?

yes, i'm so black you can't read my text.

i am going to stab every last one of you that voted for TTW.

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/07/47/23474707.jpg

:mad: BRING IT, BITCH! :mad:

OH, IT'S ALREADY BEEN BROUGHTEN! :uzi:

i am going to stab every last one of you that voted for TTW.

If you prefer rocking out to TTW over U.S., I am not too worried about your knife-wielding skills.

i don't really skip any of these songs except 7 shades. just seems cheap. not even fun live.

im of the same opinion.

You people voting for U.S. actually like TTW, 7 Shades, and the other songs better??? Something is wrong with y'all. Do you completely ignore the drumming on U.S., the killer ending, the overall heaviness (by far heaviest on the album), all just because "it's too long" and "the middle sucks"??

Let me ask again: TTW is better than U.S.??? I don't hate TTW, but let's be real here.

In my opinion, liking US more than TTW is like preferring Glass and the Ghost Children to SIYL. Not that there isn't something to be said for the epic album setpieces...but they're generally never among the very best songs on Billy's albums. I like US a whole lot, but it's not even close to the top 5 songs on this album.

Once more I have voted for 7 shades...

In my opinion, liking US more than TTW is like preferring Glass and the Ghost Children to SIYL. Not that there isn't something to be said for the epic album setpieces...but they're generally never among the very best songs on Billy's albums. I like US a whole lot, but it's not even close to the top 5 songs on this album.

i don't think i can name five better ones...
then again, it is opinion. i do like stellar alot though (these songs should have been *******d) the more i hear it. in fact, i try to hear it on the way to work every morning.

wow. You just articulated my opinion on the song exactly.

*high five*

I really hated 7 shades at first but I kinda like it now. The vocal melody is pretty great, and not just superficially like in COLG... obv this is just my opinion

The high pitched guitar thing makes me think of linkin park or something though :erm:

The high pitched guitar thing makes me think of linkin park or something though :erm:

its been done in plenty of other pumpkins songs too.

And Davin, you need to stop adding smiley commentary on the songs -- it ruins the serious nature of these deliberations.

i'm not editorializing...i'm just summing up the common sentiments of the majority of peoples' reactions/posts to the ones that got voted out.

tons of people bitched about P&C, were more subdued but unhappy about FG&C, torn between COLG and NL, and shocked by Starz.

am i wrong?

its been done in plenty of other pumpkins songs too.

yes it has, but I think it's annoying in this one.

I said I like the song :smoke:

I love 7 Shades of Black. It could do with a faster tempo and some editing but it's still managed to grown on me a lot.

idiots voting for US havnt seen or heard it live, seeing Jimmy play that is unfuckingbelievable

Seen+heard it twice live. I wish i had voted for it i/o Bleeding the Orchid... I should've checked the result first. It is a great drumming song, agreed. But the guitar riff and lyrics are boring for most of the song. It's another HMM to me.

This poll will enter "sham phase" after United States is voted off.

i don't really skip any of these songs except 7 shades. just seems cheap. not even fun live.

:cheers: horrible song

i'm not editorializing...i'm just summing up the common sentiments of the majority of peoples' reactions/posts to the ones that got voted out.

tons of people bitched about P&C, were more subdued but unhappy about FG&C, torn between COLG and NL, and shocked by Starz.

am i wrong?

that is subjective to your interpretation

i was happy to see all those songs go with the exception of neverlost

well considering the way the poll is now, if its not a draw between TTW and US, it's gonna be a tad anti-climactic next week

but it'd be a bit worrying if US lost out to TTW

well considering the way the poll is now, if its not a draw between TTW and US, it's gonna be a tad anti-climactic next week

but it'd be a bit worrying if US lost out to TTW

I think the people who are voting for TTW are not all that likely to vote off US next, since they seem to have good taste in music.

This poll will enter "sham phase" after United States is voted off.

Especially if it's voted off before TTW.

Gosh those songs are all great. Why don't people like zeitgeist ;_; it's awesome

Actually yeah that's the way my love is is kinda silly. That should have been voted of first. Bah @ pomp and circumstance going first you guys are all nuts that's what you are nuts.

... so best song equals heaviest song?

Yes, rock music generally works on such principles.

death to U.S. (the song)

... so best song equals heaviest song?

U.S. equals 2hEaVy4U ?

yes stellar is awesome. the intro reminds me of some early 90's sound track or educational film. "in the fall, the leaves will start to leave their tree"

all the poptacular songs are gonna be left on this fucken poll. leave US ALONE!!! LEAVE US ALONEEEE!! ANIMALS!!!

i got my stabbing hand ready.

yes stellar is awesome. the intro reminds me of some early 90's sound track or educational film.

not the exact description i'd choose if attempting to convey the song's "awesomeness"

This poll is turning out way different than my preferences

US is weak for a pumpkins epic, but is a pretty good song, and is great live... could have been really great with the right editing imo, at about 6 mins. Not that I'm an expert or anything, but it's way better than TTW.

stab, stab, stab, stab!

US is weak for a pumpkins epic, but is a pretty good song, and is great live... could have been really great with the right editing imo, at about 6 mins.
what kind of edits did you have in mind? please be specific

had to vote for orchid even though it's good

had to vote for orchid even though it's good
nobody's forcing you to do anything, man

I know my vote doesn't count but this is a quality thread idea

that is subjective to your interpretation

i was happy to see all those songs go with the exception of neverlost

yea, obviously so were a lot of other people since they got the most votes. i was talking abotu the reactions of those vocal enough to post about them in the thread.

jesus...why are we even talking about this. who cares, really.

I know my vote doesn't count but this is a quality thread idea

thank you for participating
thank you for participating
thank you for participating
thank you for participating
thank you for participating
thank you for participating


cue tonight, tonight.... ;)

what kind of edits did you have in mind? please be specific

A good chunk (but not all) of the middle and and some other stuff (mostly it's little things, riffs that repeat too much etc)... I will listen to the song tonight when I get time and be very specific, I can't do it off the top of my head

Check Jimmy's comments on U.S. in the Modern Drummer magazine interview. He talked about creating a hypnotic drum beat, with a slow ramp up and crescendo in the end. You can't force these things to happen too quickly! Damn society's short attention span...

You have to be in the right mindset to appreciate this song. The middle is actually not that long, and it really adds to the darkness of the song.

I like it live, it just doesn't work in studio. Shortening it really does ruin the whole buildup aspect, like you said, but I don't think it works very well in the first place in this case...

As another example, look at Bring the Light live. The quiet part at the end sounds so much like awesome classic pumpkins IMO. But on the record the dynamics aren't there. It gets quieter but it's not all creamy dreamy like it is live. If the middle of US sounded like it does live, I wouldn't change it

Check Jimmy's comments on U.S. in the Modern Drummer magazine interview. He talked about creating a hypnotic drum beat, with a slow ramp up and crescendo in the end. You can't force these things to happen too quickly! Damn society's short attention span...

You have to be in the right mindset to appreciate this song. The middle is actually not that long, and it really adds to the darkness of the song.

thank you. it's no different than the build up in XYU, or even Mary Star of the Sea.

all three have build ups to really thrashing last couple of minutes.

and it's all worth it.

i think if TTW loses it does not mean US will go next.

reason being, TTW haterz are likely to be US loverz....being that the songs are polar opposites.......so their votes are likely to redistribute differently.

so i saw BTL goes next, if TTW goes now.
and TTW goes next, if US goes now.

Not that there isn't something to be said for the epic album setpieces...but they're generally never among the very best songs on Billy's albums. I like US a whole lot, but it's not even close to the top 5 songs on this album.

not sure about this.

porcelina, ruby, starla, for martha, jesus i/msots, tafh are all up there with the best songs on their respective releases. xyu is close behind, as is silverfuck. hell, even psychodelic (yes, i know it wasn't on an album and is shorter, but it is long for early sp). US is a top 3-4 track from zeitgeist imo.

united states sucks

yea, obviously so were a lot of other people since they got the most votes. i was talking abotu the reactions of those vocal enough to post about them in the thread.

jesus...why are we even talking about this. who cares, really.

why does anyone talk about anything

united states sucks

Your mother is a whore.

you wish

why does anyone talk about anything

:beatup:

united states is one of the few really great songs on this album

Goddamn it I leave for 2 days and 7 shades is still nowhere close to being booted off but US is WTF??? At least TTW is going.

you people are insane

that's the way is one of the best songs on the album

why can't everyone agree

Because everyone is not exactlythesame. Get it? :rofl:

We've already almost reached the same number of votes as last round.

(awkward sentence structure of the year award)

INITIATE ROUND 6

"We've almost reached the same number of votes as last round already."

Pretty evenly spread out hate for the rest of the Album.

Save United States and vote for Bring the Light next round!

noooo bring the light doesn't deserve to go next!!

I'm going with Orchid next... though I seriously freaking love it. And my vote will probably not even matter.

i'll be with you on it. i have no idea -why-, but united states has really been growing on me lately.

wow, this is going to be a close poll, it looks like

im voting for tarantula next

And my vote will probably not even matter.

Probably? Ha!

i'll be with you on it. i have no idea -why-, but united states has really been growing on me lately.

you son of a bitch. :noway:

"7 Shades of Black," "Bring the Light," and "United States" are the best songs on the album, and they're #2-4 of least favorites now? You people are crazy

this is where the fun begins

noooo bring the light doesn't deserve to go next!!

I'm going with Orchid next... though I seriously freaking love it. And my vote will probably not even matter.


a vote always matters

i'm going to set the next one to 5 days, since we hit 220+ votes already within that timeframe. looks like TTW is a goner....though I still don't believe US will go next.

i have no idea what i will vote for next.

Next round prediction

7 sob

*crosses fingers*

i'm going to set the next one to 5 days, since we hit 220+ votes already within that timeframe. looks like TTW is a goner....though I still don't believe US will go next.

i have no idea what i will vote for next.

i'm surprised at the turn out for these polls

way to bring the community together (or split it apart, either one)

CMON UNITED STATES!

way to hang in there!

yay, we finally got ttw out of there. i may not even vote anymore... who am I kidding