View Full Version : New Missouri Law Requires Public Schools To Recite Pledge Once A Week


Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 02:02 AM
LIBERTY, Mo. -- Gov. Bob Holden signed a law Wednesday requiring public schools to recite the Pledge of Allegiance at least once a week.

Will the new law make local schools look at the Pledge of Allegiance differently?

KMBC's Natalie Moultrie reported that just as you're likely to find kids playing kickball on the playground at Shoal Creek Elementary School, you're likely to find patriotic artwork and a respect for the Pledge of Allegiance.

"I feel really good about it. It represents our country and our states," fifth-grader Joel Guilfoyle said.

"It's important especially in a town like Liberty. We're very focused on Independence Day rights and students have an important part to honor our history," said Amy Watkins of the Liberty School District.

Moultrie reported that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is an everyday ritual at Shoal Creek, but it's not necessarily policy. Missouri's law stating that schools must say the Pledge of Allegiance at least once a week is just affirmation to many here.

"I'm glad to hear of the state's approval. It's important for the kids to say the Pledge," principal Brad Welle said.

But school officials said that they are also sensitive to students who feel differently about the Pledge of Allegiance.

"I know students of other religions who do not say it. But as Americans, you can stand up and still be respectful when saying the Pledge in the morning," teacher Erin Perrigo said.

The legislation goes into effect Aug. 28.

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 02:04 AM
so there you go, it is now mandatory for students to pledge their allegience to a symbol, and to a nation under god.

freedom loses yet again.

bonsor
07-04-2002, 02:04 AM
<font color="0084ff">Word.

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 02:06 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
<font color="0084ff">Word.</font>

the item was mentioned for less than 30 seconds on the KC news, which i rarely ever watch. it's amazing i heard about this at all.

Oblivious
07-04-2002, 02:09 AM
just reading that made me feel dirty.

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 02:09 AM
i don't know how this affects Jehovah's Witnesses, who cannot pledge their allegience to America, let alone a symbol.

Crippler
07-04-2002, 02:13 AM
<font color="aquamarine">I pledge allegiance...to Queen Fragg...and her mighty state of hysteria...

bittertrance
07-04-2002, 02:27 AM
boo hoo

tweedyburd
07-04-2002, 02:36 AM
Finally something about the pledge that's worth an uproar.

Crippler
07-04-2002, 02:47 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Finally something about the pledge that's worth an uproar.</font>

<font color="aquamarine">Nah...the whole under God thing was much more worth a debate, not to mention a laugh or three.

Crippler
07-04-2002, 02:58 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Houdini:
cool. you mean like the freedom of religion or the freedom of speech?

</font>

<font color="aquamarine">More or less. It's amazing how low in regard kids are actually held in this country.

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 03:04 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by bittertrance:
boo hoo</font>

this kind of nationalism borders on fascism. boo hoo to you too, hitler.

tweedyburd
07-04-2002, 03:04 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Crippler:
Nah...the whole under God thing was much more worth a debate, not to mention a laugh or three.</font>

Well this is just an extention of that debate. The difference here, of course, is that this is something that's actually worth investing a lot of energy into opposing.

BeautifulLoser
07-04-2002, 03:15 AM
Eeh. That sucks.

Oh, by the way, in the Rankin County School District in Mississippi, teachers are required to have a plaque in their room that says "In God We Trust". Chew on that one.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.
http://www.animartgallery.com/images/disney/donalds/don%203_4%20angry%20cel.jpg

Crippler
07-04-2002, 03:17 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
this kind of nationalism borders on fascism. boo hoo to you too, hitler.</font>

<font color="aquamarine">Aren't you being a tad bit extreme, R.P.?

Mayfuck
07-04-2002, 03:24 AM
I don't think fifth graders really give a shit about the Pledge of Allegiance.

Crippler
07-04-2002, 03:27 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Mayfuck:
I don't think fifth graders really give a shit about the Pledge of Allegiance.</font>

<font color="aquamarine">Some would argue that's the problem.

bittertrance
07-04-2002, 03:50 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
this kind of nationalism borders on fascism. boo hoo to you too, hitler.</font>

ok, well when you realize that utopia is impossible let us all know

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 03:51 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by bittertrance:
ok, well when you realize that utopia is impossible let us all know</font>

oh, of course, so we should just "deal with it"!

there's no point in trying to change anything, ever, because it will still be imperfect! shit!

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 03:52 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Crippler:
<font color="aquamarine">Aren't you being a tad bit extreme, R.P.?</font>

tad bit?

Mayfuck
07-04-2002, 03:53 AM
And I'll be damned if Missoura's a state!

Affectation
07-04-2002, 03:54 AM
<font color=00ff33>Move out, fucker. You are here by choice. Live by the rules, and the laws.

America wont miss you. I promise.

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 03:54 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
i don't know how this affects Jehovah's Witnesses, who cannot pledge their allegience to America, let alone a symbol.</font>

the "under God" debate aside, what do you people think about that one? i know Jehovah's Witnesses are pretty minute when compared to the whole of the public school system, but if they were required to pledge allegience, wouldn't that be an intrusion on their religious rights?

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 03:58 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Affectation:
<font color=00ff33>Live by the rules, and the laws.</font>

...said the frequent user of illegal drugs.

Affectation
07-04-2002, 04:00 AM
<font color=00ff33>I haven't touched anything in over nine months, you fucking moron.

Now let's argue valid points. It doesn't seem as though you have any.

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 04:04 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Affectation:
<font color=00ff33>I haven't touched anything in over nine months, you fucking moron.</font>

what, you're a big fan of america now? and the drug war? what, did you get pussified?

bittertrance
07-04-2002, 04:08 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
oh, of course, so we should just "deal with it"!

there's no point in trying to change anything, ever, because it will still be imperfect! shit!</font>


see with leftists they always have something to bitch about and things to change so much that they go for trivial shit like this....

which you do not realize only brings out the people on the extreme right...so now we have extremists on both sides fueding over this stupid bullshit we wont even remember in 6 months

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 04:12 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by bittertrance:

see with leftists they always have something to bitch about and things to change so much that they go for trivial shit like this....

which you do not realize only brings out the people on the extreme right...so now we have extremists on both sides fueding over this stupid bullshit we wont even remember in 6 months</font>

in this case, 90% of america is apparently the "extreme right."

besides, i'm not a leftist. i just believe in what i think is right, which is that that students should not be legally required to recite a pledge to a symbol. and i'm going to argue for what i believe in. *shrug*

Affectation
07-04-2002, 04:12 AM
<font color=00ff33>No, I've been a nationalist since I was a young child. If you don't agree with something that you think steps over the bounds of religion and state, leave. You are in this country by choice. America was created with the Christian God in mind, and thought. The Christian God played an integral part in the creation of this country, and that isn't going to change. Not next year, not in ten years. Worship whatever you please, but don't expect a nation to bend over backwards to change history, and everything that it's founding fathers created.

Nice comeback, by the way.

tweedyburd
07-04-2002, 04:13 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
if they were required to pledge allegience, wouldn't that be an intrusion on their religious rights?</font>

Perhaps.

But, on a related, if not more extreme note, have you heard the case of the Muslim woman who refuses to have her face photographed for her driver's licence or any other identification card? Instead, she argues, she'll submit a photo that has her face covered, showing only her eyes.

There comes a point when the safety of everyone over-rides things such as religious rights of others. (not that I'm correlating this to your example)

Affectation
07-04-2002, 04:13 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:


i just believe in what i think is right

</font>
<font color=00ff33>Ha.

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 04:18 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Affectation:
<font color=00ff33>America was created with the Christian God in mind, and thought. The Christian God played an integral part in the creation of this country, and that isn't going to change. Not next year, not in ten years. Worship whatever you please, but don't expect a nation to bend over backwards to change history, and everything that it's founding fathers created.</font>

i thought the boundary between the church and the state was pretty clear. the infringements of the past don't justify themselves by just existing for a long time, or by having the majority agree with them. government endorsed religion is government endorsed religion, and it shouldn't happen.

i'll admit the whole "under God" thing is really riding the borderline of separation between church and state. but i'd be a lot more willing to let it go if the pledge of allegience was optional, which it should be.

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 04:20 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Perhaps.

But, on a related, if not more extreme note, have you heard the case of the Muslim woman who refuses to have her face photographed for her driver's licence or any other identification card? Instead, she argues, she'll submit a photo that has her face covered, showing only her eyes.

There comes a point when the safety of everyone over-rides things such as religious rights of others. (not that I'm correlating this to your example)</font>

yes, i was totally against that. she shouldn't be driving in a veil and if she wants photo ID, she needs to have an identifiable, accurate photo.

Elvis The Fat Years
07-04-2002, 04:22 AM
what up page 2

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 04:22 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Affectation:
<font color=00ff33>Ha.</font>

yes, how i silly i am to make my own decisions, based on what i believe and the arguments i hear for and against, and not follow a checklist of leftism! it is very amusing!

Affectation
07-04-2002, 04:33 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
i thought the boundary between the church and the state was pretty clear. the infringements of the past don't justify themselves by just existing for a long time, or by having the majority agree with them. government endorsed religion is government endorsed religion, and it shouldn't happen.

i'll admit the whole "under God" thing is really riding the borderline of separation between church and state. but i'd be a lot more willing to let it go if the pledge of allegience was optional, which it should be.</font><font color=00ff33>Your thoughts and beliefs aren't going to change a single thing. The Judge that ruled this is a fucking idiot. And the media will quiet down soon enough. I'm certain that the pledge will remain worded the same.

Also, if you possessed the ability to think slightly deeper than the surface, you would know that this pledge isn't to
symbol.

This nation was created under the God of the founders. Not Buddha, not Vishnu, and not Islam's Allah. If you are a member of this amazing country, one that had become a powerful nation in much less time than any other, you should feel as though you owe a little gratitude to the people that dreamed and created it so well. If you don't feel this, find somewhere where you do.

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 04:40 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Affectation:
<ont color=00ff33>This nation was created under the God of the founders. Not Buddha, not Vishnu, and not Islam's Allah. If you are a member of this amazing country, one that had become a powerful nation in much less time than any other, you should feel as though you owe a little gratitude to the people that dreamed and created it so well. If you don't feel this, find somewhere where you do.</font>

just because the founders themselves were christians, we should ignore what they said about religious freedom? i am grateful to them, for bestowing such supposed freedoms upon us. shouldn't i argue for these freedoms to be carried out?

is disagreeing with the government bad now?

Affectation
07-04-2002, 04:41 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
just because the founders themselves were christians, we should ignore what they said about religious freedom? i am grateful to them, for bestowing such supposed freedoms upon us. shouldn't i argue for these freedoms to be carried out?

is disagreeing with the government bad now?</font>
<font color=00ff33>No, not paying respect and not devoting yourself to the nation that you are a part of is.

Irrelevant
07-04-2002, 04:47 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Affectation:
<font color=00ff33>No, not paying respect and not devoting yourself to the nation that you are a part of is.</font>

why is nationalism so important?

mewl
07-04-2002, 11:27 AM
<font color=#9999ff> And John Adams said: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."

sleeper
07-04-2002, 11:55 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Affectation:
[QUOTE]
<font color=00ff33>No, not paying respect and not devoting yourself to the nation that you are a part of is.</font></font>

wtf

okay i didnt want to get involved in this, but youve got to be pretty ignorant to trust and devot yourself to the US government. im all for nationalism, pride, and unity but having all that for the US government is another thing. id be ashamed if i was american.

sawdust restaurants
07-04-2002, 11:55 AM
While I certainly agree that the "under God" ruling was on the border, I see absolutely no way how this ruling doesn't breach the separation of church and state. State-mandated recitation of the words "one nation, under God." The words "under God" in the pledge is theoretical in a lot of ways, but this is concrete.

Jared: For me, personally, I'm cynical enough to realize that lots of things are never going to change and idealistic enough to get pissed off about it. And it's not your place to condemn me or anybody for that. Just because you don't care about the Pledge doesn't mean it's not important; how much more egocentrical can your worldview get? This, even moreso than the "under God" ruling, directly strikes at First Amendment freedoms. Can we change a system that's inherently flawed, corrupt and mechanized beyond repair? No. But if there's enough uproar, maybe something we believe strongly in--the First Amendment rights that make this a good country to begin with and are the basis of all the nationalism and flag-waving you're going to be seeing today--might get, at the very least, examined by some people who were apathetic before. You can't waste your time on everything, no, but right now we're on Netphoria and this is the pressing issue--why not try to debate something like this? As a journalist who's seen First Amendment rights trampled more than once in favor of stories that wouldn't piss some people off (and I'm not even talking the high school environment right now, I'm talking professional newspapers), I think it's damn important to protect all five rights in there (can you even name all of them, Jared?) ... and while I realize I probably can't, at the very least, it's worth a debate.

And Aff: Although it's really not worth it with you since you're trolling half the time anyway, scroll down a few pages and find Julio's topic on Thomas Jefferson's religious opinions. And then look up John Adams' quotes on deism. And things that GW, Madison, Monroe said in private. Your opinion on the Founding Fathers, and indeed, your entire opinion, may change.

Affectation
07-04-2002, 02:29 PM
<font color=00ff33>You can read whatever you want to believe. There is more than enough proof to know that what they were saying, and to know what their priorities were.

Mayfuck
07-04-2002, 02:51 PM
Okay you can cut it out now, Affy.

mpp
07-04-2002, 03:25 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Affectation:
[QUOTE]

This nation was created under the God of the founders. Not Buddha, not Vishnu, and not Islam's Allah</font>


IMPORTANT POINT:

the founders of the US did not give two shits about religions other than ones that believed in christianity; the freedom of religion originally stemmed from being free to practice different versions of christianity whether it be catholicism, puritanism, etc etc etc

muslims, hindus, atheists and people practicing other "religions" were not addressed in the freedom of religion clause of the first amendment

now times have changed; i've spoken with my many atheists (almost all my close friends are atheists) about this ruling and they've all said the same thing; it's ludicrous; saying "under god" does not amount to (in their eyes) a violation of their freedom to worship whatever they want to

i'm offering an original intent argument (aka Conservative Copout) not because i believe it, just to offer a different side of the story

mpp
07-04-2002, 03:30 PM
liberalism is blinding some of you kids to the truth; think common sensically

muslims and hindus and atheists practicing relgion and imposing their beliefs on the massive christian majority in the eighteenth century?? no way.

and i know about adams and the other deist/atheist founding fathers; the constitution was written by the people, for the people; the aristocratic politicians of the time don't mean shit

bittertrance
07-04-2002, 04:29 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by sawdust restaurants:
Jared: For me, personally, I'm cynical enough to realize that (can you even name all of them, Jared?) ... and while I realize I probably can't, at the very least, it's worth a debate.

. </font>

woo prove to me again how smarter you are than i the doltish person

look at me everyone im the idiot wooo lookatme!

no dont look at me look at him hes smart because he doesntlike america oo hes so smart everything is a SCAM!! move while you can peoples everyone's gonna DIE!!!

DeviousJ
07-04-2002, 05:46 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by bittertrance:
woo prove to me again how smarter you are than i the doltish person

look at me everyone im the idiot wooo lookatme!

no dont look at me look at him hes smart because he doesntlike america oo hes so smart everything is a SCAM!! move while you can peoples everyone's gonna DIE!!!

</font>

Why is it that whenever someone has a solid argument against you, you either back down and pretend you never cared anyway, or act like a 10 year old?

Affectation
07-04-2002, 05:52 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by mpp:

IMPORTANT POINT:

the founders of the US did not give two shits about religions other than ones that believed in christianity; the freedom of religion originally stemmed from being free to practice different versions of christianity whether it be catholicism, puritanism, etc etc etc

muslims, hindus, atheists and people practicing other "religions" were not addressed in the freedom of religion clause of the first amendment

now times have changed; i've spoken with my many atheists (almost all my close friends are atheists) about this ruling and they've all said the same thing; it's ludicrous; saying "under god" does not amount to (in their eyes) a violation of their freedom to worship whatever they want to

i'm offering an original intent argument (aka Conservative Copout) not because i believe it, just to offer a different side of the story

</font><font color=00ff33>Very good point.

bittertrance
07-04-2002, 05:53 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by DeviousJ:
Why is it that whenever someone has a solid argument against you, you either back down and pretend you never cared anyway, or act like a 10 year old?</font>

because like i said i am an idiot...everybody should bitch about every little thing that annoys them freely and they are all right, america sucks and is so corrupt i cant think of any other countries that are worse than the one we live in

really though...i am sick of the pseudo intellect on this board coming form a bunch of people who dont even support themselves, havent worked a day in their lives,and are in the "i am 18-23 age category so i by default am a hardcore liberal and america is eviiiiiiiil"

shut the fuck up and find something WORTH fighting for

bittertrance
07-04-2002, 05:56 PM
plus i think affectation thinks i really am a 10 year old

Affectation
07-04-2002, 05:57 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by bittertrance:
plus i think affectation thinks i really am a 10 year old</font><font color=00ff33>I deleted that after you made some good points in your last post.

bittertrance
07-04-2002, 06:00 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Affectation:
Originally posted by bittertrance:
plus i think affectation thinks i really am a 10 year old</font><font color=00ff33>I deleted that after you made some good points in your last post.


<3 i have a fat headache, my appologies

DeviousJ
07-04-2002, 06:05 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by bittertrance:
because like i said i am an idiot...everybody should bitch about every little thing that annoys them freely and they are all right, america sucks and is so corrupt i cant think of any other countries that are worse than the one we live in

really though...i am sick of the pseudo intellect on this board coming form a bunch of people who dont even support themselves, havent worked a day in their lives,and are in the "i am 18-23 age category so i by default am a hardcore liberal and america is eviiiiiiiil"

shut the fuck up and find something WORTH fighting for</font>

So because the majority of the people on this board are still in school, that makes you above them? Maybe part of the reason you're so against these stances is because they're about things that don't actually affect you anymore. The mercenary attitude is what people are railing against.

Affectation
07-04-2002, 06:11 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by DeviousJ:
Maybe part of the reason you're so against these stances is because they're about things that don't actually affect you anymore.</font><font color=00ff33>Does it really affect the people that are still in school? Quite the punishment and inconvenience, isn't it?

DeviousJ
07-04-2002, 06:13 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Affectation:
<font color=00ff33>Does it really affect the people that are still in school? Quite the punishment and inconvenience, isn't it?

</font>

That's not the point - it's a change, and it's not a positive one. So people should take a stand against it. That's pretty much it.

bittertrance
07-04-2002, 06:14 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by DeviousJ:
So because the majority of the people on this board are still in school, that makes you above them? Maybe part of the reason you're so against these stances is because they're about things that don't actually affect you anymore. The mercenary attitude is what people are railing against.</font>


please tell me more about myself...

i really like having a non chalant easy going relationship with you and others here like sawdust guy im not arguing anymore because non leftists/liberal views (which are pretty much typical for younger people in college) on here are to the point of evil so no more me having any stance, thanks and god/allah/buddah/satan/creator/nature/nobody/yourself bless

DeviousJ
07-04-2002, 06:19 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by bittertrance:

please tell me more about myself...

i really like having a non chalant easy going relationship with you and others here like sawdust guy im not arguing anymore because non leftists/liberal views (which are pretty much typical for younger people in college) on here are to the point of evil so no more me having any stance, thanks and god/allah/buddah/satan/creator/nature/nobody/yourself bless</font>

Why are you so afraid to discuss your viewpoint? Nobody with any sense is going to take it personally, it's just a good way of broadening your horizons.

sawdust restaurants
07-04-2002, 08:52 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by DeviousJ:
That's not the point - it's a change, and it's not a positive one. So people should take a stand against it. That's pretty much it.</font>

Thanks.

Jared, what would you consider fighting for? I know lots of older folk who are up in arms over the same thing that I am. Does that make them hopelessly stuck in their sophomore year of college, or does that mean *gasp* they think differently? I find it amusing, yet somewhat pathetic, how everybody who is up in arms over something that YOU don't think is important is automatically naive (a massively arrogant, egocentric, shortsighted assumption), or how a leftist like me would automatically dismiss your beliefs because they're different (that's not true; I believe, and there are others on this board who believe, that the core tenet of liberalism is respecting everybody's views, regardless of whether they agree with you or not).

I don't think you're "evil." Or an asshole for that matter. There might be anti-right sentiment on 'Phoria, but I don't have any of that; it's not emnity, just disagreement. And frankly, it's somewhat sad that you're stereotyping anybody who doesn't agree with you into the "naive college kid" category. I will admit there might be a certain element of truth to it--I'm not disingenuous enough to deny it--but such a blanket statement is still fucking ridiculous. It's also ironic, too; you accuse those who disagree with you of being kids and then you resort to the stereotypical name-calling. Saying things like that, to me, says you live in a bubble--not everybody who has a job and supports themselves thinks like you. A little less than half the country describes itself as "liberal"; are all of those kids really 20-year-olds in disguise?

Seriously--if you want to have an intelligent conversation about this, I'm all for it. Otherwise, quit posting about how chill you are and how you want to just be laid-back over this stuff. That's not only an insulting insinuation that your way is the only way. It's also a copout, and you're not as high-and-mighty as you might otherwise think.

[This message has been edited by sawdust restaurants (edited 07-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sawdust restaurants (edited 07-04-2002).]

bonsor
07-04-2002, 09:17 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by DeviousJ:
That's not the point - it's a change, and it's not a positive one. So people should take a stand against it. That's pretty much it.</font>
<font color="0084ff">Exactly. It's a negative change that is, no matter how subtly and slowly, taking away a small bit of our religious freedom. People must make a stand so it doesn't take another step in the wrong direction. Apathy will get the best of us if we don't do anything about it.

I know I'm 17 and inexperienced as far as the 'real world' is concerned. I have never had a job and have been dependant on the income of my parents my entire life. That's embarassing to say, but I admit it. Despite that, I think I am well versed in my rights as an American citizen, and one of those rights is to be free from any imposition of any state endorsed religion. "Under God" may be a vague phrase since one can have no idea what God is being referred to, be it Allah, Vishnu, Jesus or Ra, but it is still a religious reference to a higher power and it is state endorsed.

Yes, I could easily brush it off and 'deal with it', but if I remained apathetic to the issue just for the sake of ease, Christians would find a way of sqeezing their agenda into the government in an attempt to make this a Christian nation by mandate. I admit, that sounds outlandish, but it is a very strong possibility in my eyes.

bittertrance
07-04-2002, 09:27 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by sawdust restaurants:
, and you're not as high-and-mighty as you might otherwise think.

[This message has been edited by sawdust restaurants (edited 07-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sawdust restaurants (edited 07-04-2002).]</font>

my friend i am the one person you would never say this about in the world, i am a pacifist and often put aside confrontation for some peace instead of speaking up every time things do not go my way...this is me. thank you for understanding

Irrelevant
07-05-2002, 01:44 AM
here's another better, article regarding the law. note the ability to opt out.

JEFFERSON CITY - Missouri Gov. Bob Holden, unfazed by a recent court ruling, signed a law Wednesday requiring the state's public-school children to recite the Pledge of Allegiance once a week.

"The events of Sept. 11 have made all of us aware of these challenging times in our country's history," said Holden, who like some other officials at the bill signing wore a tie with an American flag motif.

"We must work to instill the importance of preserving American democracy in our young people."

The bill, sponsored by Sen. Ted House, a St. Charles Democrat, requires public schools to hold the Pledge of Allegiance at least once a week, though it allows students to opt out of reciting it.

House said many schools conduct the pledge regularly, but some have stopped. The pledge should be recited so schoolchildren understand American values, he said.

"I believe it's very important that we recognize the Pledge of Allegiance as a celebration of our freedom," House said. "Those values need to be taught."

The governor and House said they were not worried about a 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decision last month. The court held that the phrase "under God" in the pledge unconstitutionally violated the separation of church and state.

The decision will be overturned, Holden and House said.

"That phrase (`under God') does not even begin to get close to the establishment of a particular religion or denomination," House said. "There is no freedom without God."

Holden said that if for some reason the court decision were to stand and "under God" were cut out of the pledge, the revised pledge still should be said in public schools.

He also said the state is willing to defend the new law in court "any day of the week."

The American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern Missouri, which lobbies the Missouri legislature, did not oppose the bill because language allowed students, if they chose, not to recite the pledge.

Matt LeMieux, executive director of the organization, said the provision comports with a U.S. Supreme Court decision that says students cannot be compelled to recite the oath.

Though the bill allows students to stay silent, some critics have said the law will make the dissenters targets of ridicule and hostility.

"I think the school would have to take affirmative steps to make sure kids weren't, in fact, ostracized by their peers" for not saying the pledge, LeMieux said.

The governor said critics are "being too sensitive.

"I don't want to see any child picked on," Holden said. "This is a way for them all to understand what it is to be an American."

The Pledge of Allegiance measure was one of several patriotic-themed bills Holden signed into law a day before the nation's birthday.

Other bills signed:

A measure prohibiting the state and cities from regulating the display of American flags, as long as the flag is displayed properly.

A bill designating April 19 Patriots Day in Missouri.

Legislation creating special license plates for various veterans' groups, and also creating a "God Bless America" plate.

A measure establishing Dec. 15 as Bill of Rights Day in Missouri.

Irrelevant
07-05-2002, 01:56 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
the provision comports with a U.S. Supreme Court decision that says students cannot be compelled to recite the oath.</font>

hmm. i want to know more about this decision. i'm sure it comes down to the fact that students cannot be absolutely required to recite it, but the school can have a mandatory oath recitation with the ability to opt-out.

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">"That phrase (`under God') does not even begin to get close to the establishment of a particular religion or denomination," House said. "There is no freedom without God."</font>

God may not refer to one PARTICULAR religion, but it does refer to a certain spectrum of religions.

as for his second statement, should that really be the stance of the government towards freedom? there is no freedom without god? he can personally believe it if he wishes, but it seems to me that he's stating it as a fact. i'd find that pretty insulting if i was an atheist, or Buddhist, or member of a similarly non-God oriented religion and lived in Missouri.

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">"We must work to instill the importance of preserving American democracy in our young people."</font>

so this is democracy, eh? being persuaded to stand as one, and recite an oath to your government. i'd say the way to instill the spirit of American democracy would be to present them with choices, and tell them it's ok to disagree with how things are done. that's how a nation grows.