View Full Version : Conservatives Vs. Liberals on this board...


BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:26 AM
I always find it so funny that the board is so opposite the country as a whole... granted, this poll might not have been very scientific, but it's still funny. The Pledge ruling apparently isn't as popular as it is here.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/06/29/poll.pledge/index.html

Then again, this can also be contributed to the good ol' American tradition of "Whatever, I don't give a fuck."

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 12:28 AM
It really doesn't matter what they think, because it's clearly unconsitutional. The constitution is clearly fine for these people when it supports their right to keeping a shotgun where their kids can find them.

Blah.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 12:29 AM
wow, 87% of americans are fucking stupid.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 12:30 AM
<font color="0084ff">Oh yes, I know that the general consensus here on netphoria is nowhere near that of the entire nation. I live in Orlando Florida. You can only imagine the change in the political atmosphere when I venture from Netphoria into the 'real world'.

The timing of the ruling wasn't too good, either.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:35 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
wow, 87% of americans are fucking stupid.</font>

Wow, you're ignorant

Just because people don't agree with you, they're fucking stupid?

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 12:36 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Wow, you're ignorant

Just because people don't agree with you, they're fucking stupid?

</font>

In this case, yes.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:37 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
It really doesn't matter what they think, because it's clearly unconsitutional. The constitution is clearly fine for these people when it supports their right to keeping a shotgun where their kids can find them.

Blah.</font>

The Constitution itself has many mentions of "God"... so the Constitution itself is fucking unconstitutional.

http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/rolleyes.gif

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:37 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
In this case, yes.</font>

http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 12:38 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
The Constitution itself has many mentions of "God"... so the Constitution itself is fucking unconstitutional.

http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/rolleyes.gif

</font>

AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:40 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

</font>

Thank You, Captain Obvious

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

bonsor
06-30-2002, 12:41 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Just because people don't agree with you, they're fucking stupid?</font>Ok, I will spell it out for you. The first amendment clearly says that the government shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, right?

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance


There are, believe it or not, Godless people in America, and a pretty substantial amount of them. By putting that in the pledge, you are excluding them as American people. They are not under any God, and because of that, it is implied that they are not worthy of being Americans.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 12:41 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Wow, you're ignorant

Just because people don't agree with you, they're fucking stupid?</font>

i'd say that people who hate religious freedom are pretty fucking stupid.

also.

9% people said the pledge should not contain "under God."

36% of people said that the government should avoid promoting religion in any way.

doesn't this seem like a bit of a contradiction?

and if 54% of people want to have the government promote religion, that's really really sad.

Mark LeDrew
06-30-2002, 12:41 AM
That poll doesn't come as much of a surprise to me considering that over 90% of Americans believe in God. Couple that with the fact that most people are inconsiderate of others and there you go.

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http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mledrew/samus.gif

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:44 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
Ok, I will spell it out for you. The first amendment clearly says that the government shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, right?

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance


There are, believe it or not, Godless people in America, and a pretty substantial amount of them. By putting that in the pledge, you are excluding them as American people. They are not under any God, and because of that, it is implied that they are not worthy of being Americans.</font>

And there is no Law that said you HAD to say the fucking pledge of allegiance. If you don't want to say it, don't say it. If you want to leave out the "under God" part, leave it out. Same as praying at football games. If you don't want to pray, don't pray.

Sure, you should respect the beliefs of the minority, but you should also respect the beliefs of the majority as well.

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

[This message has been edited by BeautifulLoser (edited 06-30-2002).]

bonsor
06-30-2002, 12:45 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
and if 54% of people want to have the government promote religion, that's really really sad.</font>

See, there's a loophole. The government cannot establish religion, but congress can apply whatever kind of religious ethics they want to a bill and eventually pass it and make it a law. So, if 51% of Americans are of the same religious domination...100% will be.

kypper
06-30-2002, 12:45 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Wow, you're ignorant

Just because people don't agree with you, they're fucking stupid?

</font>

They're not stupid; they're hypocrites. They don't believe in freedom at all, they only believe in their OWN freedom.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:46 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
i'd say that people who hate religious freedom are pretty fucking stupid.

also.

9% people said the pledge should not contain "under God."

36% of people said that the government should avoid promoting religion in any way.

doesn't this seem like a bit of a contradiction?

and if 54% of people want to have the government promote religion, that's really really sad.</font>

Ok, let's see... if 91% of people believe in God, of COURSE they wouldn't see anything wrong with putting God in the Pledge.. so that doesn't suprise me. As for the 54% that want the government to promote religion... I agree, that's shit.

But I find it funny that if someone put a picture of Buddha in a courthouse, the general concesus would be "Hey, that's pretty neat, they're being tolerant of other religions.." but if you try to put up the Ten Commandments, it's "OH MY GOD!! THEY'RE PROMOTING CHRISTIANITY! TAKE IT DOWN NOW!"

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

bonsor
06-30-2002, 12:47 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
And there is no Law that said you HAD to say the fucking pledge of allegiance. If you don't want to say it, don't say it. If you want to leave out the "under God" part, leave it out. Same as praying at football games. If you don't want to pray, don't pray.</font><font color="0084ff">I know I don't have to say it, but you've never been on the butt end of 30 students and a teacher ridiculing you for not saying the stupid pledge because of those two words, have you?

It's state endorsed, and that is what's wrong.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 12:48 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
But I find it funny that if someone put a picture of Buddha in a courthouse, the general concesus would be "Hey, that's pretty neat, they're being tolerant of other religions.." but if you try to put up the Ten Commandments, it's "OH MY GOD!! THEY'RE PROMOTING CHRISTIANITY! TAKE IT DOWN NOW!"</font><font color="0084ff">Dude...don't make sweeping assumptions like that when you argue.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 12:49 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
And there is no Law that said you HAD to say the fucking pledge of allegiance. If you don't want to say it, don't say it. If you want to leave out the "under God" part, leave it out. Same as praying at football games. If you don't want to pray, don't pray.

Sure, you should respect the beliefs of the minority, but you should also respect the beliefs of the majority as well. </font>

it's socially frowned upon not to pledge allegience.

the Under God part was added by a resolution by congress, i'd say pretty strongly that falls under the jurisdiction of not making laws about the establishment of religion.

consider, for a moment, that you were the minority. say this was an islamic nation, with the same constitution and the same pledge, only with the words "under Allah" and your currency said "in Allah we trust."

you're in 1st grade, and every day you're expected to stand up and pledge allegience to a nation "under Allah."

how would you feel about this? how would you feel about your children being expected to pledge the same way? wouldn't you expect the religious freedom the constitution guarantees you?

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 12:49 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
And there is no Law that said you HAD to say the fucking pledge of allegiance. If you don't want to say it, don't say it. If you want to leave out the "under God" part, leave it out. Same as praying at football games. If you don't want to pray, don't pray.


</font>

You don't say the pledge, kids make fun of you. Teachers put you on the spot about it. Kids call you a devil worshipper when you say you don't like the Under God part.

Yeah, I had a big choice in not saying the pledge of allegiance.

Cerberus
06-30-2002, 12:50 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:


But I find it funny that if someone put a picture of Buddha in a courthouse, the general concesus would be "Hey, that's pretty neat, they're being tolerant of other religions.." but if you try to put up the Ten Commandments, it's "OH MY GOD!! THEY'RE PROMOTING CHRISTIANITY! TAKE IT DOWN NOW!"

</font>

<font color="silver">Unlikely.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:51 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
And there is no Law that said you HAD to say the fucking pledge of allegiance. If you don't want to say it, don't say it. If you want to leave out the "under God" part, leave it out. Same as praying at football games. If you don't want to pray, don't pray.</font><font color="0084ff">I know I don't have to say it, but you've never been on the butt end of 30 students and a teacher ridiculing you for not saying the stupid pledge because of those two words, have you?

It's state endorsed, and that is what's wrong.

Actually, no I haven't... but I've been ridiculed for being Christian. But I'm not screaming intolerance to the people that ridicule me, am I? I'm not screaming intolerance when they tell me I can't pray in school...

This argument is pointless.

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

bonsor
06-30-2002, 12:51 AM
<font color="0084ff">

Besides, I don't think there's any part of the buddhist doctrine that says that you will suffer eternally if you don't follow a few certain rules. If you want to think there's a difference between Buddhism and Christianity, that's it right there.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:52 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
<font color="0084ff">Dude...don't make sweeping assumptions like that when you argue.</font>

Why not? It might be extreme, but it's damn true...

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 12:53 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
I'm not screaming intolerance when they tell me I can't pray in school...

</font>

They don't tell you that. They tell you that it can't be taught.

Cerberus
06-30-2002, 12:53 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
it's socially frowned upon not to pledge allegience.

the Under God part was added by a resolution by congress, i'd say pretty strongly that falls under the jurisdiction of not making laws about the establishment of religion.

consider, for a moment, that you were the minority. say this was an islamic nation, with the same constitution and the same pledge, only with the words "under Allah" and your currency said "in Allah we trust."

you're in 1st grade, and every day you're expected to stand up and pledge allegience to a nation "under Allah."

how would you feel about this? how would you feel about your children being expected to pledge the same way? wouldn't you expect the religious freedom the constitution guarantees you?</font>

<font color="silver">You're neglecting one fact: in Islam, you can do whatever you please to infidels. Therefore, logically, if you didn't say the pledge, you'd likely be under a lot more torment than simple taunting.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 12:54 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Actually, no I haven't... but I've been ridiculed for being Christian. But I'm not screaming intolerance to the people that ridicule me, am I? I'm not screaming intolerance when they tell me I can't pray in school...</font>What? You are allowed to pray in school. I don't care if you pray in school because it's not state endorsed. That is the difference. Your actions are not state endorsed, however, the schools' are.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:54 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
it's socially frowned upon not to pledge allegience.

the Under God part was added by a resolution by congress, i'd say pretty strongly that falls under the jurisdiction of not making laws about the establishment of religion.

consider, for a moment, that you were the minority. say this was an islamic nation, with the same constitution and the same pledge, only with the words "under Allah" and your currency said "in Allah we trust."

you're in 1st grade, and every day you're expected to stand up and pledge allegience to a nation "under Allah."

how would you feel about this? how would you feel about your children being expected to pledge the same way? wouldn't you expect the religious freedom the constitution guarantees you?</font>

I'd tell my kids that it's alright to say the pledge, but if they feel uncomfortable saying "Under Allah", then don't say it. I'm sure that if they're standing there in a group of 1st graders and they leave out two words, no one's going to notice.

I've had friends that do this, and no one ever says anything to them... maybe I'm just from a really tolerant town or something.

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 12:54 AM
you can pray all you want to in school, provided you're not expected to be doing schoolwork. the faculty cannot lead you in prayer, or encourage you to pray, however.

kypper
06-30-2002, 12:54 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Why not? It might be extreme, but it's damn true...

</font>

there you go with sweeping assumptions again.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:55 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
You don't say the pledge, kids make fun of you. Teachers put you on the spot about it. Kids call you a devil worshipper when you say you don't like the Under God part.

Yeah, I had a big choice in not saying the pledge of allegiance.</font>

As I said before, maybe I grew up in a more tolerant place than you did.


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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 12:56 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
I'd tell my kids that it's alright to say the pledge, but if they feel uncomfortable saying "Under Allah", then don't say it. I'm sure that if they're standing there in a group of 1st graders and they leave out two words, no one's going to notice.

I've had friends that do this, and no one ever says anything to them... maybe I'm just from a really tolerant town or something.</font>

so you wouldn't care that you live in a nation that actively endorses a religion which you don't believe?

*shakes head*

kypper
06-30-2002, 12:56 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
you can pray all you want to in school, provided you're not expected to be doing schoolwork. the faculty cannot lead you in prayer, or encourage you to pray, however.</font>

and nor should the students lead such an event. But they do.
It's very wrong for a public school.
The simpsons said it best: "God has no place within these four walls"

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 12:57 AM
well, how would you like it if the currency said "there is no god"?

that would be the same as printing it with "in god we trust" just the other extreme.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 12:58 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
<font color="0084ff">

Besides, I don't think there's any part of the buddhist doctrine that says that you will suffer eternally if you don't follow a few certain rules. If you want to think there's a difference between Buddhism and Christianity, that's it right there.

</font>

No, but Christianity and Buddhism do have the same basic rules.. most religions are pretty similar. Be a good person, don't kill people, etc. I don't follow all those rules the church imposes, and I also don't really follow half the Bible, considering it was changed over time and translation.

I think the movie Dogma had it pretty right on. The basic idea.

Eeh, getting off on a tangent.


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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Cerberus
06-30-2002, 12:59 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
As I said before, maybe I grew up in a more tolerant place than you did.


</font>

<font color="silver">This isn't a valid excuse to fuel your argument. It's the same country.

kypper
06-30-2002, 12:59 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
well, how would you like it if the currency said "there is no god"?

that would be the same as printing it with "in god we trust" just the other extreme.</font>

Most people can't see beyond their own benefits. That's the problem; you only care if it affects you. That's why these constitutional issues haven't been changed. That's why the money has 'in god we trust'. It is simply because the majority of americans aren't affected by it, so they don't care. The majority would care about 'there is no god'. Fuck practising what you preach, eh? http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/frown.gif

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:01 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
They don't tell you that. They tell you that it can't be taught.</font>

? Christianity can't be taught you mean?

No, kids are being taught that it's not right to pray in school... in fact, the Bible Club and FCA were almost removed from my high school because people were so intolerant of having religion anywhere near school. It's ridiculous. "How dare you try to be Christian at school" is basically how it's perceived at times.

And as far as praying at football games and such, it's not like it was only Christian prayer being said... many times, we would have a Muslim student or Jewish student recite a prayer as well. But like I said, I come from a tolerant town..

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Cerberus
06-30-2002, 01:02 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Most people can't see beyond their own benefits. That's the problem; you only care if it affects you. That's why these constitutional issues haven't been changed. That's why the money has 'in god we trust'. It is simply because the majority of americans aren't affected by it, so they don't care. The majority would care about 'there is no god'. Fuck practising what you preach, eh? http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/frown.gif</font>

<font color="silver">You're right, but doesn't that make you consider how much of an effect something like this truly has on people? As you said yourself, things like this don't affect many people one way or the other. Why waste time fighting for something 9 out of 10 people don't care about? And you can't just answer "Because it's right," because in this case, what's "right" would be considered relative.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 01:03 AM
<font color="0084ff">Quit talking about your stupid town.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:03 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Actually, no I haven't... but I've been ridiculed for being Christian. But I'm not screaming intolerance to the people that ridicule me, am I? I'm not screaming intolerance when they tell me I can't pray in school...</font>What? You are allowed to pray in school. I don't care if you pray in school because it's not state endorsed. That is the difference. Your actions are not state endorsed, however, the schools' are.



Just because someone gets on the loudspeaker and says a prayer doesn't mean it's state endorsed. No one's forcing the entire school to pray. You're not going to get a bad grade if you don't pray. And back to the ridiculing thing, I can't relate to that...

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 01:04 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:

No, kids are being taught that it's not right to pray in school... in fact, the Bible Club and FCA were almost removed from my high school because people were so intolerant of having religion anywhere near school. It's ridiculous. "How dare you try to be Christian at school" is basically how it's perceived at times.


</font>

Well, then those people are idiots. Bible Clubs are clearly fine, because it's not anything that's mandated by the State. The whole point of this argument isn't beliefs, it's what is clearly allowed or not allowed under the law.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:04 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Cerberus:
<font color="silver">You're right, but doesn't that make you consider how much of an effect something like this truly has on people? As you said yourself, things like this don't affect many people one way or the other. Why waste time fighting for something 9 out of 10 people don't care about? And you can't just answer "Because it's right," because in this case, what's "right" would be considered relative.</font>

the government has the responsibility of protecting the minority's rights?

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:04 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
you can pray all you want to in school, provided you're not expected to be doing schoolwork. the faculty cannot lead you in prayer, or encourage you to pray, however.</font>

Exactly. The prayers at our football games were led by the students, not faculty. But it was stopped anyway.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:04 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Cerberus:
<font color="silver">You're right, but doesn't that make you consider how much of an effect something like this truly has on people? As you said yourself, things like this don't affect many people one way or the other. Why waste time fighting for something 9 out of 10 people don't care about? And you can't just answer "Because it's right," because in this case, what's "right" would be considered relative.</font>
Perhaps, but unfortunately, nothing appears to get done unless you go to the extreme. Perhaps eliminating god from all the legitimate documents that were illegally inserted in the first place would prevent the current bedding of church and state that Bush seems to be fuelling. I sure as fucking hell wouldn't want my tax dollars going to religions to serve the public while peddling their beliefs. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:06 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
and nor should the students lead such an event. But they do.
It's very wrong for a public school.
The simpsons said it best: "God has no place within these four walls"</font>

So you're saying that when we have that "Prayer Around the Flagpole" event, that is nothing but students, that's wrong??

So you're saying that if a Muslim student prayed in school (they're required to pray so many times during the day), that'd be wrong too?

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:07 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
well, how would you like it if the currency said "there is no god"?

that would be the same as printing it with "in god we trust" just the other extreme.</font>

True enough...


------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 01:07 AM
How many politicians do you think are going to use this as their primary platform and get re/elected because of it?

Cerberus
06-30-2002, 01:07 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
the government has the responsibility of protecting the minority's rights?</font>

<font color="silver">What you've said doesn't refute my statement at all; in fact, it fuels it further.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:08 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
So you're saying that when we have that "Prayer Around the Flagpole" event, that is nothing but students, that's wrong??

So you're saying that if a Muslim student prayed in school (they're required to pray so many times during the day), that'd be wrong too?

</font>

Then they can do it just off of school property. It is considered public school for a reason, and unfortunately, once religion is allowed in, even in that minute amount, it compounds. The problem with religion is that you give them an inch and they take a mile. I agree that the students probably should be allowed to do that during the day for themselves, however it NEVER stops there, and so I think it should be completely banned.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:08 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Cerberus:
<font color="silver">This isn't a valid excuse to fuel your argument. It's the same country.</font>

How is that not a valid excuse? I grew up in an environment that was obviously more tolerant to these things than the other people here... pardon me for not being introduced to these things in the same way as others.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:09 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
<font color="0084ff">Quit talking about your stupid town.</font>

Fine, I'm done.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

bonsor
06-30-2002, 01:09 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Just because someone gets on the loudspeaker and says a prayer doesn't mean it's state endorsed. No one's forcing the entire school to pray. You're not going to get a bad grade if you don't pray. And back to the ridiculing thing, I can't relate to that...</font><font color="0084ff">Let see, it's a prayer, led by school faculty who is paid by the government, during school hours. That sounds pretty state endorsed to me.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:10 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Just because someone gets on the loudspeaker and says a prayer doesn't mean it's state endorsed. No one's forcing the entire school to pray. You're not going to get a bad grade if you don't pray. And back to the ridiculing thing, I can't relate to that...</font>

a public school is a government instutution.

a school faculty member is a government official.

the church and state are to be explicitly separate.

besides, why is it all right for someone to lead a prayer over the loudspeaker, when i'm sure everyone would consider it wrong for them to say "hey, there is no god, and if you believe in one, you're wrong" over the same loudspeaker in a school. i mean, the religious kids don't have to listen.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:11 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Just because someone gets on the loudspeaker and says a prayer doesn't mean it's state endorsed. No one's forcing the entire school to pray. You're not going to get a bad grade if you don't pray. And back to the ridiculing thing, I can't relate to that...</font><font color="0084ff">Let see, it's a prayer, led by school faculty who is paid by the government, during school hours. That sounds pretty state endorsed to me.



Students were saying it.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:12 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Students were saying it.</font>

But the school was allowing government resources to be utilized during government-paid hours for teaching to endorse religion. Sorry... still state endorsed.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:13 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
a public school is a government instutution.

a school faculty member is a government official.

the church and state are to be explicitly separate.

besides, why is it all right for someone to lead a prayer over the loudspeaker, when i'm sure everyone would consider it wrong for them to say "hey, there is no god, and if you believe in one, you're wrong" over the same loudspeaker in a school. i mean, the religious kids don't have to listen.</font>

That really isn't a good arguement. Prayers don't involved anyone saying "If you don't believe in God, you're wrong." So saying "If you believe in God, you're wrong" really isnt the same thing.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 01:13 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Students were saying it.</font>

Over the loudspeakers? That's ridiculous. You're forcing the entire school to participate. You can't "not listen" to something being broadcast over the loudspeakers.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:13 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
But the school was allowing government resources to be utilized during government-paid hours for teaching to endorse religion. Sorry... still state endorsed.</font>

No, it was a football game, after school hours.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

bonsor
06-30-2002, 01:15 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
No, it was a football game, after school hours.</font>In a government institution at a gathering that is not religiously based.

I am, however, all for the use of school building for voluntary church services.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:15 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
No, it was a football game, after school hours.

</font>

Still government resources though, directed on school property.
my argument IS less solid though.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:15 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
Over the loudspeakers? That's ridiculous. You're forcing the entire school to participate. You can't "not listen" to something being broadcast over the loudspeakers.</font>

Who said listening was the same thing as participating? If a Jew said a prayer in Hebrew over the loudspeaker, I wouldn't be offended, nor would I feel that Judaism was getting forced on me.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:17 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
That really isn't a good arguement. Prayers don't involved anyone saying "If you don't believe in God, you're wrong." So saying "If you believe in God, you're wrong" really isnt the same thing.</font>

being led in prayer in school is just as insulting to an atheist or agnostic's beliefs as telling a christian that they're wrong for believing in god.

Homerpalooza
06-30-2002, 01:17 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Cerberus:
[B] Why waste time fighting for something 9 out of 10 people don't care about? [B]</font>

What would our laws be like if it only catered to the majority of the people living here? Isn't it the government's responsibility to protect everyone, even the weakest among us?

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 01:17 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Who said listening was the same thing as participating? If a Jew said a prayer in Hebrew over the loudspeaker, I wouldn't be offended, nor would I feel that Judaism was getting forced on me. </font>

Some people would. I certainly would. It should be a private thing. Allowing that to be broadcast to every student, is more or less an endoresment.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:19 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
In a government institution at a gathering that is not religiously based.


</font>

I understand the whole point of being tolerant to those who have no religion.. that's great. But I say that if someone wants to lead a prayer, no matter the religion, why not let them? Who is it hurting? Are atheists REALLY that offended by having someone pray over a loudspeaker?

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:19 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
Some people would. I certainly would. It should be a private thing. Allowing that to be broadcast to every student, is more or less an endoresment.</font>

not more or less. It IS an endorsement, and many public prayers are directed into luring people into religion.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 01:20 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Are atheists REALLY that offended by having someone pray over a loudspeaker? </font>No. We're just making sure our religious freedom isn't threatened/

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:20 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
being led in prayer in school is just as insulting to an atheist or agnostic's beliefs as telling a christian that they're wrong for believing in god.</font>

Pardon me, but that's bullshit. If someone of another religion wanted to pray over a loudspeaker at school, I would in no way feel like they were calling me "wrong" for believing in the Judeo-Christian God. And if you get offended that easily... jeez.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:22 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
not more or less. It IS an endorsement, and many public prayers are directed into luring people into religion.</font>

Um, no... if a majority of the people present are Christian, and they want to pray together, why not let them? It's not hurting anyone. Saying a prayer over a loudspeaker is not saying "You're wrong for not believing in God", nor is it an "advertisement" for Christianity... you're reaching with that one.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:23 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Pardon me, but that's bullshit. If someone of another religion wanted to pray over a loudspeaker at school, I would in no way feel like they were calling me "wrong" for believing in the Judeo-Christian God. And if you get offended that easily... jeez.

</font>

but of course you wouldn't! The problem is that you are comparing a separate religion, still believing in a Yahweh/Allah derivative, to the absence of a god completely! THEY ARE VERY DIFFERENT. You would take more offence to 'there is no god' than to 'there is a different god'. That is why we are offended; we're the devil's minority.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:23 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
No. We're just making sure our religious freedom isn't threatened/

</font>

Ok, fine... so if atheists don't pray, then don't pray.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:23 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Pardon me, but that's bullshit. If someone of another religion wanted to pray over a loudspeaker at school, I would in no way feel like they were calling me "wrong" for believing in the Judeo-Christian God. And if you get offended that easily... jeez.</font>

but for you, it's ok for any religious person to get on there and pray, but not ok for a non-religious person to get on there and say "there is no god, there is only science. jesus never existed." they're just stating their religious beliefs, like any other person you'd allow on there.

i think you're a hipocrite.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 01:23 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Saying a prayer over a loudspeaker is not saying "You're wrong for not believing in God", nor is it an "advertisement" for Christianity... you're reaching with that one.</font><font color="0084ff">Then what the hell is it?

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 01:24 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Pardon me, but that's bullshit. If someone of another religion wanted to pray over a loudspeaker at school, I would in no way feel like they were calling me "wrong" for believing in the Judeo-Christian God. And if you get offended that easily... jeez.

</font>

If one group gets to do it, then every other group should, or else it's the school endorsing it. If a christian can get over the loudspeaker and lead a prayer, then so can a jew, and a muslim. An athiest should be allowed to go to the loudspeaker and say "I don't believe in God, but have a great game guys", or something.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:25 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Um, no... if a majority of the people present are Christian, and they want to pray together, why not let them? It's not hurting anyone. Saying a prayer over a loudspeaker is not saying "You're wrong for not believing in God", nor is it an "advertisement" for Christianity... you're reaching with that one.

</font>
I'm sorry, but preaching the wonders of Jesus, and how we should all bow to jesus, and pray for our souls, and pray for your dog's soul, and pray for your penis, and pray for the dude down the street, and give to the church (never forget that one... god forbid the absense of money might occur)... that sure as hell is fucking advertising.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:25 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
but of course you wouldn't! The problem is that you are comparing a separate religion, still believing in a Yahweh/Allah derivative, to the absence of a god completely! THEY ARE VERY DIFFERENT. You would take more offence to 'there is no god' than to 'there is a different god'. That is why we are offended; we're the devil's minority.</font>

I don't take offense to "There is no God", because the Bible teaches tolerance of everyone, no matter what they believe. If someone wants to believe that, fine... If someone tells me that, sure, I'll get offended by that just as much as someone would if I were to say "You're going to hell because you don't believe in God" which is why I don't say that to people... it's two different things.


------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:25 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Are atheists REALLY that offended by having someone pray over a loudspeaker?</font>

i am. religious freedom guarantees me the right not to have to listen to that via a government-endorsed platform, and having that right infringed makes me angry.

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 01:28 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
if a majority of the people present are Christian, and they want to pray together, why not let them?
</font>

Yes, that's fine. But not having someone lead it over the loudspeaker. That's not "just letting whoever wants to pray, pray." That's encouraging EVERYONE to get up and pray.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:28 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
but for you, it's ok for any religious person to get on there and pray, but not ok for a non-religious person to get on there and say "there is no god, there is only science. jesus never existed." they're just stating their religious beliefs, like any other person you'd allow on there.

i think you're a hipocrite.</font>

I'm only human. *shrug* Sure it's hard for me to see these things, I admit that. Which is why I like debating these things, to see other peoples' points of view... I could just be totally intolerant and not participate at all. But I do see the other side of this arguement, and it makes sense to me. But really, if I were atheist, I can't see myself getting mad over people praying in school, just the same as I cant see myself telling someone they're wrong for not saying the Pledge or for participating in the prayer.


------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:29 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Ok, fine... so if atheists don't pray, then don't pray.</font>

it must be nice being part of a pompous, selfish majority.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:29 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
I don't take offense to "There is no God", because the Bible teaches tolerance of everyone, no matter what they believe. If someone wants to believe that, fine... If someone tells me that, sure, I'll get offended by that just as much as someone would if I were to say "You're going to hell because you don't believe in God" which is why I don't say that to people... it's two different things.


</font>

BUT OTHERS DO, AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:29 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
<font color="0084ff">Then what the hell is it?

</font>

It's just people praying in a group... I don't know what else to call it, but it's not an advertisement... people don't do it with the intention of gathering people to their side.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 01:30 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
it must be nice being part of a pompous, selfish majority.</font>

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:31 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
If one group gets to do it, then every other group should, or else it's the school endorsing it. If a christian can get over the loudspeaker and lead a prayer, then so can a jew, and a muslim. An athiest should be allowed to go to the loudspeaker and say "I don't believe in God, but have a great game guys", or something.

</font>

YES YES dammit, I've been trying to say that... but accourding to the laws made pertaining to prayer in school, that's not allowed. Schools that DID allow students of all religions to lead a prayer or a moment of silence or whatever, they're not allowed to do that anymore, because of that law.



------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Meshach Taylor
06-30-2002, 01:31 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
it must be nice being part of a pompous, selfish majority.</font>

Sup, Whitey?

------------------
Bitchis Pleasum, dontis makum meis getis allum medievalum onus youris assum.
http://www.topthat.net/DWT/Photos/MT002.jpg

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:32 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Um, no... if a majority of the people present are Christian, and they want to pray together, why not let them? It's not hurting anyone. Saying a prayer over a loudspeaker is not saying "You're wrong for not believing in God", nor is it an "advertisement" for Christianity... you're reaching with that one.

</font>
I'm sorry, but preaching the wonders of Jesus, and how we should all bow to jesus, and pray for our souls, and pray for your dog's soul, and pray for your penis, and pray for the dude down the street, and give to the church (never forget that one... god forbid the absense of money might occur)... that sure as hell is fucking advertising.

The only prayer said at football games are generally "Thank you for getting us here safe, keep the players safe, keep us safe on the way back, thank you, amen"...

As for asking for money, that's why i don't go to church anymore. I understand giving money if it's going to a charity of some kind, but when churches ask for money so they can "beautify the lawn", that's just wrong.


------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:33 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Meshach Taylor:
Sup, Whitey?

</font>

Sup, self righteous, skin-tone obsessed, pompous, minority crying, racist darky.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:33 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
i am. religious freedom guarantees me the right not to have to listen to that via a government-endorsed platform, and having that right infringed makes me angry.</font>

But what of this tolerance that everyone speaks of? If people of different religions want to pray at football games, is forcing them not to not intolerant?

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:34 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
The only prayer said at football games are generally "Thank you for getting us here safe, keep the players safe, keep us safe on the way back, thank you, amen"...

As for asking for money, that's why i don't go to church anymore. I understand giving money if it's going to a charity of some kind, but when churches ask for money so they can "beautify the lawn", that's just wrong.


</font>

Atheists take offence to the concept that these people aren't responsible for their actions. JESUS DOESN't GET YOU THERE SAFE. YOU DO BY DRIVING RESPONSIBLY.

I really hate that. Fucking take responsibility for your actions.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:35 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
Yes, that's fine. But not having someone lead it over the loudspeaker. That's not "just letting whoever wants to pray, pray." That's encouraging EVERYONE to get up and pray.</font>

But you don't have to. Freedom of choice.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 01:36 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Atheists take offence to the concept that these people aren't responsible for their actions. JESUS DOESN't GET YOU THERE SAFE. YOU DO BY DRIVING RESPONSIBLY.

I really hate that. Fucking take responsibility for your actions. </font>Please don't make this a debate about religious principles.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:36 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
it must be nice being part of a pompous, selfish majority.</font>

Saying "If atheist don't want to pray, then don't pray" is the same as saying "If you want to pray, then pray"... I don't see it as pompous.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:36 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
But what of this tolerance that everyone speaks of? If people of different religions want to pray at football games, is forcing them not to not intolerant?</font>

they can pray all they want to. just don't do it over the loudspeaker.

as for the players leading each other in prayer, they have the complete freedom to, in my mind, as long as it isn't the coach's idea. there's peer pressure involved, but there's nothing the government can do about that, or should do about it.

funnygeezus
06-30-2002, 01:36 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
But what of this tolerance that everyone speaks of? If people of different religions want to pray at football games, is forcing them not to not intolerant?</font>

<font color=slate>no one's forcing them not to, we (well i) just don't think they need a government-funded loudspeaker for god to hear them.

------------------
And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command.
So we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine patri, et fili, et spiritu sancti.
http://www.avalon.nf.ca/~rosemd/we3.jpg

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:37 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Meshach Taylor:
Sup, Whitey?

</font>

Hehe, we missed you around here...

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:37 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
Originally posted by kypper:
Atheists take offence to the concept that these people aren't responsible for their actions. JESUS DOESN't GET YOU THERE SAFE. YOU DO BY DRIVING RESPONSIBLY.

I really hate that. Fucking take responsibility for your actions. </font>Please don't make this a debate about religious principles.

It isn't though. I'm saying that it is offensive because it basically says "Do whatever the fuck you want, it's god's will anyway'. I am personally offended by that attitude, especially preached at me. It is, in all respects, and endorsement of hedonism.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:38 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Atheists take offence to the concept that these people aren't responsible for their actions. JESUS DOESN't GET YOU THERE SAFE. YOU DO BY DRIVING RESPONSIBLY.

I really hate that. Fucking take responsibility for your actions. </font>

Thanking God for the safety of the players is not refusing to take responsibility. If someone gets hurt, we know it was for a reason, and not necessarily "becuase that's what God wanted"... we don't walk around life as mindless drones. Well, not all of us.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:39 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Meshach Taylor:
Sup, Whitey?</font>

being white isn't a choice. being a christian is. don't be such a racist.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:41 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Thanking God for the safety of the players is not refusing to take responsibility. If someone gets hurt, we know it was for a reason, and not necessarily "becuase that's what God wanted"... we don't walk around life as mindless drones. Well, not all of us. </font>

Wow... you could've fooled me http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/rolleyes.gif

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:41 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
they can pray all they want to. just don't do it over the loudspeaker.

as for the players leading each other in prayer, they have the complete freedom to, in my mind, as long as it isn't the coach's idea. there's peer pressure involved, but there's nothing the government can do about that, or should do about it.</font>

I do see your point about the loudspeaker. The thing is... it goes farther than that sometimes, and people start talking like kypper and say that prayer shouldn't be allowed PERIOD. Then it starts infringing on the majority's rights. I'm not making an assumption either, it happens. It's just a big pendulum... it doesn't stay in the middle, there's always somebody who's going to push it the other way.

There are extremes on both sides is what I'm trying to say, I think.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:42 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Saying "If atheist don't want to pray, then don't pray" is the same as saying "If you want to pray, then pray"... I don't see it as pompous. </font>

well, atheists won't pray, of course. but they have the right not to be part of a prayer service in a government-appropriated institution.

praying over a loudspeaker to all the students and saying "if the atheists don't want to pray, then they don't have to" is disrespectful, and i consider it rather pompous.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:42 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by funnygeezus:
<font color=slate>no one's forcing them not to, we (well i) just don't think they need a government-funded loudspeaker for god to hear them.

</font>

Hehe...

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:43 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
I do see your point about the loudspeaker. The thing is... it goes farther than that sometimes, and people start talking like kypper and say that prayer shouldn't be allowed PERIOD. Then it starts infringing on the majority's rights. I'm not making an assumption either, it happens. It's just a big pendulum... it doesn't stay in the middle, there's always somebody who's going to push it the other way.

There are extremes on both sides is what I'm trying to say, I think.

</font>

I say they shouldn't be allowed because it never gets left there. I would love for a perfect world in which religious people can supress their desire to 'spread the love' and just pray to themselves. I would think that fine in schools. But it won't fucking happen.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:43 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
It isn't though. I'm saying that it is offensive because it basically says "Do whatever the fuck you want, it's god's will anyway'. I am personally offended by that attitude, especially preached at me. It is, in all respects, and endorsement of hedonism.</font>

Well I'm personally offended by the fact that you think I don't take responsibility for my actions.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:44 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
well, atheists won't pray, of course. but they have the right not to be part of a prayer service in a government-appropriated institution.

praying over a loudspeaker to all the students and saying "if the atheists don't want to pray, then they don't have to" is disrespectful, and i consider it rather pompous.</font>

How is it pompous to say "If you don't want to participate, then you don't have to"? (seriously, I don't get it)

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:45 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
How is it pompous to say "If you don't want to participate, then you don't have to"? (seriously, I don't get it)

</font>
If you don't want to read this post, you don't have to...

you're a bitch.
you're a bitch
you're a bitch

see my point? http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif (you're not btw, I was just making a point)

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:46 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
How is it pompous to say "If you don't want to participate, then you don't have to"? (seriously, I don't get it)</font>

it's rude and it doesn't respect the beliefs of others.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:46 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
I say they shouldn't be allowed because it never gets left there. I would love for a perfect world in which religious people can supress their desire to 'spread the love' and just pray to themselves. I would think that fine in schools. But it won't fucking happen. </font>

yeah, and disallowing all forms of religion in school is intolerant to my beliefs. If I want to read the Bible in a group of Christians before class and call it a club and put up posters inviting people to join, I should be allowed to. It's not harming anyone, nor am I forcing people to go. People can form Atheist clubs for all I care, it's their choice and it's not school funded, so bam, there ya go.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:47 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
yeah, and disallowing all forms of religion in school is intolerant to my beliefs. If I want to read the Bible in a group of Christians before class and call it a club and put up posters inviting people to join, I should be allowed to. It's not harming anyone, nor am I forcing people to go. People can form Atheist clubs for all I care, it's their choice and it's not school funded, so bam, there ya go. </font>

you had me until the posters. NO ENDORSEMENT OF RELIGION IN A GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION. Sheesh.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:48 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
How is it pompous to say "If you don't want to participate, then you don't have to"? (seriously, I don't get it)

</font>
If you don't want to read this post, you don't have to...

you're a bitch.
you're a bitch
you're a bitch

see my point? http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif (you're not btw, I was just making a point)

I kinda see your point, but not really. That would be like if the prayer went like this:

"Atheists, you don't have to pray if you don't want to."

"God, thank you (insert what I said earlier), and God help those poor souls that don't believe in you, for they will go to hell and burn in eternal fire. Amen."

Nooo. it doesn't go like that. Besides... even if they DID say that, why would you be offended, you don't believe in that?

Jews think Christians are going to hell because they think Jesus is the Messiah... but I don't take offense to that. That's what they believe. Big deal.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:49 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
it's rude and it doesn't respect the beliefs of others.</font>

Seriously, I don't see it.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:49 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
I kinda see your point, but not really. That would be like if the prayer went like this:

"Atheists, you don't have to pray if you don't want to."

"God, thank you (insert what I said earlier), and God help those poor souls that don't believe in you, for they will go to hell and burn in eternal fire. Amen."

Nooo. it doesn't go like that. Besides... even if they DID say that, why would you be offended, you don't believe in that?

Jews think Christians are going to hell because they think Jesus is the Messiah... but I don't take offense to that. That's what they believe. Big deal. </font>

Funny... I've heard exactly that prayer withou the 'atheist disclaimer'.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:51 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
you had me until the posters. NO ENDORSEMENT OF RELIGION IN A GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION. Sheesh.</font>

The school isn't endorsing anything. The students put up the posters, the same way they put up those stupid "VOTE FOR ME FOR CLASS BLAH BLAH BLAH" posters. Anybody can put up a poster endorsing their club, so why not the religious clubs as well?

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:52 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Funny... I've heard exactly that prayer withou the 'atheist disclaimer'. </font>

That's the difference between denominations, yet another reason I don't believe in church. No one has the right to say who's going to hell except God. Anyone that adds that in a prayer is retarded.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:52 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Seriously, I don't see it. </font>

which is why i call you selfish and pompous.

funnygeezus
06-30-2002, 01:52 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
I would love for a perfect world in which religious people can supress their desire to 'spread the love' and just pray to themselves. </font>

<font color=slate>that's the perfect world? sheesh, i always would've thought it was free of violence or predjudice or something.

so let me get this straight: religious people actually can't refrain from praying and "spreading" their ideology at inappropriate times, they just kind of do so spontaniously? that would explain alot.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:53 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
which is why i call you selfish and pompous.</font>

Fine, don't explain yourself, I'll never know... i wasn't asking to be an ass, I was asking to find out what the hell you're talking about, because I'm not seeing it.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:54 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
The school isn't endorsing anything. The students put up the posters, the same way they put up those stupid "VOTE FOR ME FOR CLASS BLAH BLAH BLAH" posters. Anybody can put up a poster endorsing their club, so why not the religious clubs as well? </font>

Because your fundamental rights and constitutions, the original ones, state that religion and state should be separate. They don't state that about politics. Simple as that.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 01:54 AM
<font color="0084ff">I, personally, have no problem at all with people running extra-curricular clubs that focus on a specific religion, even if it was headed by a faculty member, because it is not during school hours and it's totally voluntary.

However, if it was the Math club, and the teacher started spurting out bible verses, I would have a problem with that, because it's irrelevant, and it takes place in a government institution.

[This message has been edited by ****** (edited 06-30-2002).]

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 01:54 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Seriously, I don't see it. </font>

let me try it this way:

when someone tells me "walk and talk and pray with jesus" i feel like a black person being called a nigger. i feel talked down to.

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 01:55 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
you had me until the posters. NO ENDORSEMENT OF RELIGION IN A GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION. Sheesh.</font>

But that's not state endorsed. It's not beating people over the head with religion like I think the loudspeaker thing is. It's a school group, and they're allowed to INVITE people to join just like the A/V club is.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:55 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by funnygeezus:
<font color=slate>that's the perfect world? sheesh, i always would've thought it was free of violence or predjudice or something.

so let me get this straight: religious people actually can't refrain from praying and "spreading" their ideology at inappropriate times, they just kind of do so spontaniously? that would explain alot.</font>

It does, doesn't it? http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:56 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Because your fundamental rights and constitutions, the original ones, state that religion and state should be separate. They don't state that about politics. Simple as that.</font>

You're as intolerant as the 59% that say that government should endorce religion.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:56 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
But that's not state endorsed. It's not beating people over the head with religion like I think the loudspeaker thing is. It's a school group, and they're allowed to INVITE people to join just like the A/V club is.</font>

Ah, but have you ever seen these posters? they say shit like "Abortion is wrong!", "Sinners Repent" and "Love Jesus and make the world a better place. Then join our club."
Sorry, but that's offensive and endorsement.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:57 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
<font color="0084ff">I, personally, have no problem at all with people running extra-curricular clubs that focus on a specific religion, even if it was headed by a faculty member, because it is not during school hours and it's totally voluntary.

However, if it was the Math club, and the teacher started spurting out bible verses, I would have a problem with that, because it's irrelevant, and it takes place in a government institution.

[This message has been edited by ****** (edited 06-30-2002).]</font>

I agree with you

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 01:58 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
let me try it this way:

when someone tells me "walk and talk and pray with jesus" i feel like a black person being called a nigger. i feel talked down to.</font>

*shrugs* That's your personal opinion... if someone were to try to persuade me over to their religion or whatever, I'd just say "no thanks" and think nothing of it... but hey, that's your personal opinion.

kypper
06-30-2002, 01:58 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
You're as intolerant as the 59% that say that government should endorce religion. </font>

No, I'm practical. I understand that people won't stop at the basic fundamental halted pendulum. I understand that people feel the need to make everyone else understand their own feelings.
Religion is a touchy issue that cannot be compared to a voting club. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif The authors of your constitution understood that, and, having seen the result of the catholic church on europe, corrected accordingly. Successing congresses proceeded to fuck those ideals up the ass.

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 01:58 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Ah, but have you ever seen these posters? they say shit like "Abortion is wrong!", "Sinners Repent" and "Love Jesus and make the world a better place. Then join our club."
Sorry, but that's offensive and endorsement.</font>

Ok, that shouldn't be allowed. If shit like that is being spouted, the teacher should make the students change the posters, because that is offensive.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:00 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Ah, but have you ever seen these posters? they say shit like "Abortion is wrong!", "Sinners Repent" and "Love Jesus and make the world a better place. Then join our club."
Sorry, but that's offensive and endorsement.</font>

Um, no... they say things like "You're invited to Bible Club, 7:30am in the Library, Donuts and Orange Juice provided for Breakfast"

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 02:00 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
*shrugs* That's your personal opinion... if someone were to try to persuade me over to their religion or whatever, I'd just say "no thanks" and think nothing of it... but hey, that's your personal opinion. </font>

you're also not a minority. you're not looked down upon by the majority.

kypper
06-30-2002, 02:00 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Um, no... they say things like "You're invited to Bible Club, 7:30am in the Library, Donuts and Orange Juice provided for Breakfast"</font>

You haven't seen the posters at highschools and universities around here.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:01 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
No, I'm practical. I understand that people won't stop at the basic fundamental halted pendulum. I understand that people feel the need to make everyone else understand their own feelings.
Religion is a touchy issue that cannot be compared to a voting club. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif The authors of your constitution understood that, and, having seen the result of the catholic church on europe, corrected accordingly. Successing congresses proceeded to fuck those ideals up the ass. </font>

You know, some people actually practice their religion outside of church... when you tell them they flat out can't (I understand the loudspeaker thing, that's not what I'm talking about), that's just plain ignorance.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:01 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
Ok, that shouldn't be allowed. If shit like that is being spouted, the teacher should make the students change the posters, because that is offensive.</font>

Definitely. *I* would find that offensive.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:02 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
you're also not a minority. you're not looked down upon by the majority.</font>

*shrug* True.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:03 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
You haven't seen the posters at highschools and universities around here. </font>

Well then, I *would* say that that's wrong. But seriously, I've never heard of that anywhere else... shit like that would get taken down in a split second anywhere else.

kypper
06-30-2002, 02:04 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
You know, some people actually practice their religion outside of church... when you tell them they flat out can't (I understand the loudspeaker thing, that's not what I'm talking about), that's just plain ignorance. </font>

and your point in relation to my argument was...?

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 02:04 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
You haven't seen the posters at highschools and universities around here. </font>

If it's at a university, it kind of isn't prohibited by law.

But high schools, that's clearly ridiculous. Are the laws regarding this the same in Canada? I'm just wondering since you're so into this. :\

tweedyburd
06-30-2002, 02:06 AM
This thread was a complete disappointment.

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 02:06 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
and your point in relation to my argument was...?</font>

The fact that you're for completely disallowing any form of religion in school. Her point was that it's unfair to want to keep kids from having prayer groups on their own, and that you're essentially saying that prayer should be restricted to church, and not even all Christians go to Churh.

I wish I was better at expressing this stuff.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 02:07 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
This thread was a complete disappointment.</font>

what a cop out.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:08 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
and your point in relation to my argument was...?</font>

Telling people they can't pray or have little groups that get together to pray PERIOD at school is infringing on the religious rights of those people.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:09 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
The fact that you're for completely disallowing any form of religion in school. Her point was that it's unfair to want to keep kids from having prayer groups on their own, and that you're essentially saying that prayer should be restricted to church, and not even all Christians go to Churh.

I wish I was better at expressing this stuff.</font>

Hell, you said it better than I did...

tweedyburd
06-30-2002, 02:12 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
what a cop out.</font>

Nah, this thread's not even worth the energy of a cop out.

Edit: Oops...


[This message has been edited by tweedyburd (edited 06-30-2002).]

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 02:13 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Nah, this thread's not even worth the energy of a cop out.

</font>

Wow.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:13 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Nah, this thread's not even worth the energy of a cop out.

Edit: Oops...


[This message has been edited by tweedyburd (edited 06-30-2002).]</font>

http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif Aaw... you always word things so much better than I do.

tweedyburd
06-30-2002, 02:14 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif Aaw... </font>

<3

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:16 AM
Wow, this is the first serious debate I've had in quite a while...

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 02:17 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Nah, this thread's not even worth the energy of a cop out.</font>

what, are you disappointed we spent so much time trying to change the opinion of someone who is wrong?

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:18 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
what, are you disappointed we spent so much time trying to change the opinion of someone who is wrong?</font>

http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/rolleyes.gif

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 02:19 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/rolleyes.gif</font>

i'm sorry that you don't care about the rights of others. no need to get pissy!

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:19 AM
Even though you are blatantly offensive with your arguements, Irrelevant, I still like you. You're amusing.

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 02:20 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Nah, this thread's not even worth the energy of a cop out.

</font>

Was there really any reason for you to even reply? It's pretty rude, not to mention pointless to enter a thread that's gone on just fine without your imput and basically call everyone stupid. I'm sure the thread would have been much better with your involvement.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 02:22 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Even though you are blatantly offensive with your arguements, Irrelevant, I still like you. You're amusing. </font>

that's what i'm here for.

------------------
He rushed into the house, farting and tap dancing, warning the people about the terrible danger they were in.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 02:23 AM
Shit, I've spent about $4 sitting here... I gotta go. Night night everyone.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

tweedyburd
06-30-2002, 02:23 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
what, are you disappointed we spent so much time trying to change the opinion of someone who is wrong?</font>

No, I'm disappointed some people are foolish enough to believe opinions like the ones expressed here, at their core, can be changed.

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 02:25 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
No, I'm disappointed some people are foolish enough to believe opinions like the ones expressed here, at their core, can be changed.

</font>

You've had threads where you've argued over abortion, and many other political beliefs. What made those different?

Debaser
06-30-2002, 02:30 AM
man that's fucked up that they say god in the plege. Even though the government says that you don't have to say the plege or just leave out the god part if you want, we all know that its just a weak ass cop out. the government should not be endorsing religion like that. im so offended.

you know what else is offensive? the fact that the government makes us take a week off from school for these crazy christian religious holidays of christmas and easter. Even though the government has tried to call it "winter" and "spring" break, we all know that its just a weak ass cop out. that's so fucked up how the government is endorsing religion like that. i demand that school be in session during those christian holidays cuz im not a christian!!!!

Who's with me!!??

------------------
Convince yourself that everything is alright ('cause it already is).

tweedyburd
06-30-2002, 02:30 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
Was there really any reason for you to even reply? It's pretty rude</font>

Oh my! Now this really is a touchy-feely kinda thread we have here. Yes, how very rude of me.

Relax. I was mostly disappointed because the subject line was misleading. I was expecting the usual back and forth ideological bullshit that I've come to know and love on this board. This was actually sort of interesting, if not completely repetitive.

Oh, just out of curiosity, how do you guys who decry all of this as an outrage feel about spending those bills in your pocket that say "In God We Trust" neatly on them.



[This message has been edited by tweedyburd (edited 06-30-2002).]

tweedyburd
06-30-2002, 02:33 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
You've had threads where you've argued over abortion, and many other political beliefs. What made those different?</font>

I never argue to consciously change someone's opinion, but rather to back up my own as best I can. There is a difference.

Graveflower
06-30-2002, 02:38 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
I never argue to consciously change someone's opinion, but rather to back up my own as best I can. There is a difference. </font>

I can't speak for the other people here, but I don't expect to change other people's opinions, just make them understand mine.

tweedyburd
06-30-2002, 02:39 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
I can't speak for the other people here, but I don't expect to change other people's opinions, just make them understand mine.</font>

I know, dude. I have no beef with you.

MisterSquishyHalo
06-30-2002, 03:48 AM
Never debate someone about religion.

nothing ever changes. heh.

You can never convince a true believer that it doesnt exist, just as you can never convince a non-believer that it does.

kypper
06-30-2002, 06:00 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:


Oh, just out of curiosity, how do you guys who decry all of this as an outrage feel about spending those bills in your pocket that say "In God We Trust" neatly on them.
</font>

Read the whole thread. We discuss that.

kypper
06-30-2002, 06:01 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
The fact that you're for completely disallowing any form of religion in school. Her point was that it's unfair to want to keep kids from having prayer groups on their own, and that you're essentially saying that prayer should be restricted to church, and not even all Christians go to Churh.

I wish I was better at expressing this stuff.</font>

Not at all. I never said it couldn't be done outside of school. Jesus... stop being so black and white http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/rolleyes.gif
I only mean, and I have seen this countless times, that if you give them an inch, they will take a mile, so the school stuff has to stay nadda. If you don't agree with me, BL, well, you just have to start researching how all these fuckers handle their 'inch' http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif I KNOW history shows they don't stop there.

kypper
06-30-2002, 06:03 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
Telling people they can't pray or have little groups that get together to pray PERIOD at school is infringing on the religious rights of those people. </font>

Not particularly, especially if it disrupts learning in the environment they're in to learn, not pray. Go to church, your home, a park, I don't care. Go to school to fucking learn.

Demon Worshippers (they are NOT Satanists... you need to look them up if you think of them as anything but hedonistic atheists) aren't allowed to sacrifice a goat in the school caffeteria.
Wiccans aren't allowed to praise their goddess with naked dancing around a fire (yes, they DO do that. I know that for a fact).
They have constitutional rights, by you reasoning, to pray at school! WHERE'S THE LOVE?!??!?
Can't have one without the other.

[This message has been edited by kypper (edited 06-30-2002).]

kypper
06-30-2002, 06:06 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Debaser:
man that's fucked up that they say god in the plege. Even though the government says that you don't have to say the plege or just leave out the god part if you want, we all know that its just a weak ass cop out. the government should not be endorsing religion like that. im so offended.

you know what else is offensive? the fact that the government makes us take a week off from school for these crazy christian religious holidays of christmas and easter. Even though the government has tried to call it "winter" and "spring" break, we all know that its just a weak ass cop out. that's so fucked up how the government is endorsing religion like that. i demand that school be in session during those christian holidays cuz im not a christian!!!!

Who's with me!!??

</font>
Sarcasm will get you nowhere. They have long been altered to non-religious holidays in the general mention. Santa Clause instead of Jesus. Easter Bunny instead of ... well, Jesus. Granted, they were about the wassail bowl and chocolates before christianity came and altered those pagan holidays anyway, butttttttttttttttt...........
Honestly, if that would get religion out of my face and my children's faces in the environment they're supposed to be in to LEARN on MY TAXDOLLARS... yes, I would forfeit those holidays.

kypper
06-30-2002, 06:12 AM
*** bitches. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif

This Naked Chef
06-30-2002, 06:15 AM
i dunno BEAUTIFUL loszr sems like this kinda dum bitch who was to busy killing chinks to make opnions

yah and her boyfriend was like "yeah honey, shake the hips and be my communist woman"

And she was like

http://newbatteries.homestead.com/files/floppysos.gif

then she an el scorcho became beautiful twins only el scorcho didnt die

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 06:47 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
I can't speak for the other people here, but I don't expect to change other people's opinions, just make them understand mine.</font>

Yup, same here

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 06:49 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Not at all. I never said it couldn't be done outside of school. Jesus... stop being so black and white http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/rolleyes.gif
I only mean, and I have seen this countless times, that if you give them an inch, they will take a mile, so the school stuff has to stay nadda. If you don't agree with me, BL, well, you just have to start researching how all these fuckers handle their 'inch' http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif I KNOW history shows they don't stop there.</font>

Whatever... I've seen plenty of schools that have religious clubs that meet at school, outside of schooltime, and they don't go any further than their "inch". Simply because you've had bad run-ins with religious people is no reason to lump us all together and say that we're going to press our views on everyone else.

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 06:50 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by kypper:
Not particularly, especially if it disrupts learning in the environment they're in to learn, not pray. Go to church, your home, a park, I don't care. Go to school to fucking learn.

Demon Worshippers (they are NOT Satanists... you need to look them up if you think of them as anything but hedonistic atheists) aren't allowed to sacrifice a goat in the school caffeteria.
Wiccans aren't allowed to praise their goddess with naked dancing around a fire (yes, they DO do that. I know that for a fact).
They have constitutional rights, by you reasoning, to pray at school! WHERE'S THE LOVE?!??!?
Can't have one without the other.

[This message has been edited by kypper (edited 06-30-2002).]</font>

Are you retarded? Of course you're not allowed to fuckin' sacrifice a goat at school or run around naked...

I don't even need to explain why.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 06:51 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by This Naked Chef:
i dunno BEAUTIFUL loszr sems like this kinda dum bitch who was to busy killing chinks to make opnions

yah and her boyfriend was like "yeah honey, shake the hips and be my communist woman"

And she was like

http://newbatteries.homestead.com/files/floppysos.gif

then she an el scorcho became beautiful twins only el scorcho didnt die</font>

Who the fuck are you?

------------------
Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

sawdust restaurants
06-30-2002, 08:19 AM
I cannot believe some of you think that putting posters up in a school building, no matter what they say, is unconstitutional. Bullshit. How is a student's action a state-sponsored endorsement of religion? You're really stretching that one, guys.

No wonder America is up in arms. "TEH PPL W/O G0D ARE TAKING 0VER TEH WORLD!!1!!" I was appalled at some of the things that people were saying who had written into the newspaper and called the news, because I thought this was a First Amendment issue, but I suppose I was wrong--there really is anti-establishment sentiment in a lot of non-Christians, and you guys are going out of your way to utterly eliminate religion from public forums, which is NOT the same thing, at all, as trying to prevent a teacher to lead a state-mandated pledge with the words "under God" in it. This Pledge decision isn't popular, but I agree with it despite seeing the counterarguments (the good ones haven't even been raised in this thread); but telling somebody that you can't put up a poster that says, well, ANYTHING because "it's offensive" is Big Brother-esque. Screw that PC bullshit, man; you guys aren't even arguing about the fucking First Amendment anymore. John was right. This is a waste of a thread.

BeautifulLoser
06-30-2002, 08:23 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by sawdust restaurants:
I cannot believe some of you think that putting posters up in a school building, no matter what they say, is unconstitutional. Bullshit. How is a student's action a state-sponsored endorsement of religion? You're really stretching that one, guys.

No wonder America is up in arms. "TEH PPL W/O G0D ARE TAKING 0VER TEH WORLD!!1!!" I was appalled at some of the things that people were saying who had written into the newspaper and called the news, because I thought this was a First Amendment issue, but I suppose I was wrong--there really is anti-establishment sentiment in a lot of non-Christians, and you guys are going out of your way to utterly eliminate religion from public forums, which is NOT the same thing, at all, as trying to prevent a teacher to lead a state-mandated pledge with the words "under God" in it. This Pledge decision isn't popular, but I agree with it despite seeing the counterarguments (the good ones haven't even been raised in this thread); but telling somebody that you can't put up a poster that says, well, ANYTHING because "it's offensive" is Big Brother-esque. Screw that PC bullshit, man; you guys aren't even arguing about the fucking First Amendment anymore. John was right. This is a waste of a thread.</font>

Wow, you just said a whole buncha shit I was trying to say earlier... thanks. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/smile.gif

There's a point when people can be just a little TOO PC. One extreme is just as bad as the other.

Wowie, 6 pages, this is the longest thread I've ever started...

[This message has been edited by BeautifulLoser (edited 06-30-2002).]

Eulogy
06-30-2002, 10:28 AM
Half the posts in this thread.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 11:54 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Eulogy:
Half the posts in this thread.</font>

BeautifulLoser's http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/smile.gif.

J/K!!! J/K!!! I JEST!!!

peabody
06-30-2002, 12:05 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by sawdust restaurants:
How is a student's action a state-sponsored endorsement of religion? You're really stretching that one, guys.

</font>


it's on a state owned wall!!!!

tweedyburd
06-30-2002, 12:28 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by sawdust restaurants:
I cannot believe some of you think that putting posters up in a school building, no matter what they say, is unconstitutional. Bullshit. How is a student's action a state-sponsored endorsement of religion? You're really stretching that one, guys.

No wonder America is up in arms. "TEH PPL W/O G0D ARE TAKING 0VER TEH WORLD!!1!!" I was appalled at some of the things that people were saying who had written into the newspaper and called the news, because I thought this was a First Amendment issue, but I suppose I was wrong--there really is anti-establishment sentiment in a lot of non-Christians, and you guys are going out of your way to utterly eliminate religion from public forums, which is NOT the same thing, at all, as trying to prevent a teacher to lead a state-mandated pledge with the words "under God" in it. This Pledge decision isn't popular, but I agree with it despite seeing the counterarguments (the good ones haven't even been raised in this thread); but telling somebody that you can't put up a poster that says, well, ANYTHING because "it's offensive" is Big Brother-esque. Screw that PC bullshit, man; you guys aren't even arguing about the fucking First Amendment anymore. John was right. This is a waste of a thread.</font>

It's the clear-thinking liberal minded people like you and Graveflower that keep these threads from teetering on the edge of ridiculous. Thanks, and I agree with everything you said there. I just didn't have the energy last night.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 12:40 PM
for the record i disagree with kypper on some points. i completely believe in a student's voluntary ability to involve god in their lives at school.

i don't see what's so radical about what ****** and i posted in this thread, as opposed to graveflower.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 12:41 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
i completely believe in a student's voluntary ability to involve god in their lives at school.</font>

i just don't believe they have the right to involuntarily involve god in other students' lives in school.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 01:26 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Irrelevant:
i don't see what's so radical about what ****** and i posted in this thread, as opposed to graveflower.</font><font color="0084ff">Ditto. kypper, as far as I can see, is the only really radical one.

tweedyburd
06-30-2002, 02:44 PM
OK, OK.

Minus ******.

The Omega Concern
06-30-2002, 02:54 PM
When Susan Ethridge says this issue doesnt merit a constitutional critique, those of you who believe this fight if worth fighting are further to the left than Jerry Falwell is to the right.

bittertrance
06-30-2002, 03:04 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Debaser:
man that's fucked up that they say god in the plege. Even though the government says that you don't have to say the plege or just leave out the god part if you want, we all know that its just a weak ass cop out. the government should not be endorsing religion like that. im so offended.

you know what else is offensive? the fact that the government makes us take a week off from school for these crazy christian religious holidays of christmas and easter. Even though the government has tried to call it "winter" and "spring" break, we all know that its just a weak ass cop out. that's so fucked up how the government is endorsing religion like that. i demand that school be in session during those christian holidays cuz im not a christian!!!!

Who's with me!!??

</font>


exactly, and if anyone says "god belss you" when i sneeze at work i am going to sue them for annoying me with their religious babble

i am so insecure about what other people say that i think everyone is trying to get me sucked in to their cultish ways

bonsor
06-30-2002, 03:25 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by bittertrance:

exactly, and if anyone says "god belss you" when i sneeze at work i am going to sue them for annoying me with their religious babble</font>You are completely missing the point.

bittertrance
06-30-2002, 03:53 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
Originally posted by bittertrance:

exactly, and if anyone says "god belss you" when i sneeze at work i am going to sue them for annoying me with their religious babble</font>You are completely missing the point.


no, my point is: where does it all end? what if christmas annoys atheists? can they sue the government for making it a national holiday?

DeviousJ
06-30-2002, 04:19 PM
If I read all this at work tomorrow, I might join in the fun!

sawdust restaurants
06-30-2002, 04:31 PM
Okay, a few things.

<font size=+3>First, stop saying that there are numerous references to God in the Constitution. There aren't. Go ahead and look; God ain't in there. Thank you, drive thru.</font>

I'd address what Jared said, but we've been over that in the original thread, and whatever, it's kind of frustrating but I respect your opinion.

And to ****** and Ryan Patrick: no student is forcing you to involuntarily give up your freedom of religion by putting up a poster in the school or by otherwise invoking the name of God. If a candidate for mayor puts his or her sign on the side of the road, does that mean the town is endorsing that person's campaign? Of course not. By the same token, no amount of God-posturing in schools--no matter how extreme--is unconstitutional. There's a difference between something you don't like and something that's illegal. And while I like both of you, I can't help but think that if this weren't about religion, you'd feel the same way that I do.

bittertrance
06-30-2002, 04:35 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by sawdust restaurants:
<font size=+3>. Thank you, drive thru.</font>

.</font>


wait wait wait!!!.....can i get it larged sized?

god bless

sawdust restaurants
06-30-2002, 04:38 PM
Oh, and one other thing regarding the original ruling (sorry, can't help myself): please please please please stop invoking the "this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values" thing. That's revisionist history disguised as what appears to be common sense and patriotism.

Who cares what the Founding Fathers believed in? They realized their personal beliefs (many, by the way, were deists, and NOT practicing Christians) were secondary to the importance of religious freedom. That's why we HAVE the First Amendment. Some of the country's most prosperous settlements were founded on religions that were frowned upon in the first place--cue Pennsylvania, which despite being Christian was pretty radical for the time. This country wasn't founded on Judeo-Christian belief systems, and simply because a majority of the population identified with it doesn't mean that this is a God-fearing country. I guess it can come down to a matter of belief, to the question "what's more important: the separation of church and state or tradition?" I guess you can pick tradition, but know that if you do, then you're just supporting the hegemony of the majority.

sawdust restaurants
06-30-2002, 04:40 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by bittertrance:
wait wait wait!!!.....can i get it larged sized?</font>

I don't have that problem, dude. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/wink.gif

And yeah, the large font is obnoxious, but so is reading about nonexistent references to God in the Constitution. I held my tongue for a long time, but it finally really pissed me off.

bittertrance
06-30-2002, 04:49 PM
i am going to beat a dead horse...but, laws and government policies arent created based upon 'what god wants' or based on any certain religion although a majority of laws go along with numerous basic fundamental religous beleifs

there are just references to God because of the beleifs of a majority of people who planted the seed of the country

let us all now make money and sip champagne

theman1343
06-30-2002, 04:51 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by sawdust restaurants:
Okay, a few things.

<font size=+3>First, stop saying that there are numerous references to God in the Constitution. There aren't. Go ahead and look; God ain't in there. Thank you, drive thru.</font>
</font>

Ok... i'm not going to go through and find God references in the constitution, but there are many other things that have always been there.

-Our money (in God we trust)
-Imagration and Naturalization ceremony
-Before a person testifies in a court of law
-Supreme court starts their day
-Senate starts every day with a prayer


There are many others also. It just shows that the word "God" and references are everywhere, so why should it be taken out of the pledge.

This is just another bad event that has gone about since the "wall of separation
between church and state" in 1947. That Supreme Court decision of Everson v. Board of Education was a standalone decision w/ no prior president and that is the point in time when the U.S. started moving away from religion and towards humanistic views.

I just hate it when people say they are tolerent yet in reality they are only tolerent of their own views and not views of others.

bonsor
06-30-2002, 04:58 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by sawdust restaurants:
And to ****** and Ryan Patrick: no student is forcing you to involuntarily give up your freedom of religion by putting up a poster in the school or by otherwise invoking the name of God. If a candidate for mayor puts his or her sign on the side of the road, does that mean the town is endorsing that person's campaign? Of course not. By the same token, no amount of God-posturing in schools--no matter how extreme--is unconstitutional. There's a difference between something you don't like and something that's illegal. And while I like both of you, I can't help but think that if this weren't about religion, you'd feel the same way that I do.</font>Niether ryan nor I said that practice of religion in a school should be illegal. Nor did we say putting up posters in a school about it should be banned too. You're confusing us with kypper.

[This message has been edited by ****** (edited 06-30-2002).]

bonsor
06-30-2002, 05:01 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by **********:
-Our money (in God we trust)
-Imagration and Naturalization ceremony
-Before a person testifies in a court of law
-Supreme court starts their day
-Senate starts every day with a prayer
</font>You think we're alright with that?

theman1343
06-30-2002, 05:48 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
Originally posted by **********:
-Our money (in God we trust)
-Imagration and Naturalization ceremony
-Before a person testifies in a court of law
-Supreme court starts their day
-Senate starts every day with a prayer
</font>You think we're alright with that?

Point being... it's been around since the beginning, so that would be an arguement that cannot be dismissed like some do with the 1954 Eisenhower "under God" thing.




[This message has been edited by ********** (edited 06-30-2002).]

Too Dumb to Mean It
06-30-2002, 06:09 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by **********:
Ok... i'm not going to go through and find God references in the constitution, but there are many other things that have always been there.

-Our money (in God we trust)
</font>

I haven't read this entire thread, so this may have already been gone over, but the phrase "In God We Trust" has not always been on our money. It's been used since the early 1900's, and in 1955 Eisenhower signed a law making it mandatory for all forms of our currency to bear this phrase.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 07:13 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by The Omega Concern:
When Susan Ethridge says this issue doesnt merit a constitutional critique, those of you who believe this fight if worth fighting are further to the left than Jerry Falwell is to the right.</font>

i'm not a liberal.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 07:16 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by sawdust restaurants:
And to ****** and Ryan Patrick: no student is forcing you to involuntarily give up your freedom of religion by putting up a poster in the school or by otherwise invoking the name of God.</font>

i never said anything about the poster issue. they can express themselves all they want. i just don't want anyone leading a public school in my country in prayer, for any religion.

i'm all for school vouchers, if they want to go to a religious school, where government is not so involved, go.

sawdust restaurants
06-30-2002, 07:17 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by **********:
I just hate it when people say they are tolerent yet in reality they are only tolerent of their own views and not views of others.</font>

It would be pretty intolerant of me to call you stupid for spelling "tolerant" wrong twice, but I think I'm about to do just that.

Seriously--if you had read this thread at all, you'd realize this isn't about tolerance. This is about our belief that the First Amendment prohibits state-sponsored religion. When the state puts something that says "In God We Trust" on a coin, I see that as state-sponsored religion.

How dense can you possibly be, man?

sawdust restaurants
06-30-2002, 07:19 PM
and ******&RP: I confused you for kypper. Sorry, amigos, it was a long thread. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/redface.gif

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 07:23 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by **********:
No one is saying the "Under God" is something a person has to believe, it's just a respect to the people who made this country.</font>

what? pretty much everyone wants to keep it in, not out of respect to the people that made this country, but to show that our nation currently, right now, is one united under their God.

besides, this nation was also founded on the ideals of human slavery, but i'm sure you don't think we should still be respectful of that. freedom is freedom, despite the past.

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 07:26 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by **********:
There are many others also. It just shows that the word "God" and references are everywhere, so why should it be taken out of the pledge.</font>

because it's right?

i don't think it should be on money. and i think that people in court should have the choice of have they are sworn in, with the option depending on their religion. though i'm not sure how you would swear in an atheist or agnostic, since they have no fear of a higher power, really.

as for the senate praying, i suppose that's their choice.

[This message has been edited by Irrelevant (edited 06-30-2002).]

Too Dumb to Mean It
06-30-2002, 07:29 PM
I can't back this up with any documentation, but I believe I'm read that you can ask for another document--I think the choices are other religious texts, or the Constitution--and have the words, "so help you God," removed when you're sworn in during a court proceeding.

[This message has been edited by Too Dumb to Mean It (edited 06-30-2002).]

Irrelevant
06-30-2002, 07:30 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Too Dumb to Mean It:
I can't back this up with any documentation, but I believe I'm read that you can ask for another document--I think the choices are other religious texts, or the Constitution--and have the words, "so help you God," when you're sworn in during a court proceeding.</font>

oh yeah? i've never heard of such a thing. or maybe i have, and i've forgotten.

i'd be glad to swear on the constitution. as long as i didn't have to say the "so help me God" part, still.

Oblivious
06-30-2002, 10:06 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
I kinda see your point, but not really. That would be like if the prayer went like this:

"Atheists, you don't have to pray if you don't want to."

"God, thank you (insert what I said earlier), and God help those poor souls that don't believe in you, for they will go to hell and burn in eternal fire. Amen."

Nooo. it doesn't go like that. Besides... even if they DID say that, why would you be offended, you don't believe in that?

Jews think Christians are going to hell because they think Jesus is the Messiah... but I don't take offense to that. That's what they believe. Big deal. </font>

Why don't you hold off making an ignorant statement until you figure out whether it's true or not. Here:

The Talmud states that all Israel has a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. However, not all "shares" are equal. A particularly righteous person will have a greater share in the Olam Ha-Ba than the average person. In addition, a person can lose his share through wicked actions. There are many statements in the Talmud that a particular mitzvah will guarantee a person a place in the Olam Ha-Ba, or that a particular sin will lose a person's share in the Olam Ha-Ba, but these are generally regarded as hyperbole, excessive expressions of approval or disapproval.

Some people look at these teachings and deduce that Jews try to "earn our way into Heaven" by performing the mitzvot. This is a gross mischaracterization of our religion. It is important to remember that unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it. Non-Jews frequently ask me, "do you really think you're going to go to Hell if you don't do such-and-such?" It always catches me a bit off balance, because the question of where I am going after death simply doesn't enter into the equation when I think about the mitzvot. We perform the mitzvot because it is our privilege and our sacred obligation to do so. We perform them out of a sense of love and duty, not out of a desire to get something in return. In fact, one of the first bits of ethical advice in Pirkei Avot (a book of the Mishnah) is: "Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead, be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward, and let the awe of Heaven [meaning G-d, not the afterlife] be upon you."

Nevertheless, we definitely believe that your place in the Olam Ha-Ba is determined by a merit system based on your actions, not by who you are or what religion you profess. In addition, we definitely believe that humanity is capable of being considered righteous in G-d's eyes, or at least good enough to merit paradise after a suitable period of purification.

Do non-Jews have a place in Olam Ha-Ba? Although there are a few statements to the contrary in the Talmud, the predominant view of Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Statements to the contrary were not based on the notion that membership in Judaism was required to get into Olam Ha-Ba, but were grounded in the observation that non-Jews were not righteous people. If you consider the behavior of the surrounding peoples at the time that the Talmud was written, you can understand the rabbis' attitudes. By the time of Rambam, the belief was firmly entrenched that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba.

BeautifulLoser
07-01-2002, 05:02 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by ******:
BeautifulLoser's http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/smile.gif.

J/K!!! J/K!!! I JEST!!!</font>

<3

BeautifulLoser
07-01-2002, 05:08 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Oblivious:
Why don't you hold off making an ignorant statement until you figure out whether it's true or not. Here:

The Talmud states that all Israel has a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. However, not all "shares" are equal. A particularly righteous person will have a greater share in the Olam Ha-Ba than the average person. In addition, a person can lose his share through wicked actions. There are many statements in the Talmud that a particular mitzvah will guarantee a person a place in the Olam Ha-Ba, or that a particular sin will lose a person's share in the Olam Ha-Ba, but these are generally regarded as hyperbole, excessive expressions of approval or disapproval.

Some people look at these teachings and deduce that Jews try to "earn our way into Heaven" by performing the mitzvot. This is a gross mischaracterization of our religion. It is important to remember that unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it. Non-Jews frequently ask me, "do you really think you're going to go to Hell if you don't do such-and-such?" It always catches me a bit off balance, because the question of where I am going after death simply doesn't enter into the equation when I think about the mitzvot. We perform the mitzvot because it is our privilege and our sacred obligation to do so. We perform them out of a sense of love and duty, not out of a desire to get something in return. In fact, one of the first bits of ethical advice in Pirkei Avot (a book of the Mishnah) is: "Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead, be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward, and let the awe of Heaven [meaning G-d, not the afterlife] be upon you."

Nevertheless, we definitely believe that your place in the Olam Ha-Ba is determined by a merit system based on your actions, not by who you are or what religion you profess. In addition, we definitely believe that humanity is capable of being considered righteous in G-d's eyes, or at least good enough to merit paradise after a suitable period of purification.

Do non-Jews have a place in Olam Ha-Ba? Although there are a few statements to the contrary in the Talmud, the predominant view of Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Statements to the contrary were not based on the notion that membership in Judaism was required to get into Olam Ha-Ba, but were grounded in the observation that non-Jews were not righteous people. If you consider the behavior of the surrounding peoples at the time that the Talmud was written, you can understand the rabbis' attitudes. By the time of Rambam, the belief was firmly entrenched that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. </font>

Oook... well, you're right, I didn't know all that stuff you just said, but truly I was just making a point. Sorry that I just sounded like a moron, saying that... I do that alot.

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Originally posted by Irrelevant:
EAT A BAG OF FUCK (http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautifulloser), HOMOLOVER.

http://216.40.201.38/contrib/ruinkai/screama.gif

Irrelevant
07-01-2002, 05:12 AM
closing time.