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Maybe it's because I AM 16 and I can totally relate to the lyrics in "To Forgive" and other "childish" songs. So perhaps in a few years I'll feel the same way as you do.

But at the moment, and I do still believe my opinion is valid, I don't agree that SP wrote emo lyrics by today's definition. Probably because thinking of SP as emo makes me cringe and want to puke, because I'm a teen in a time where emo is associated with awful bands. I simply cannot make that comparison.

But like I said, I'm able to admit that I might change my mind in ten years. In fact, I probably WILL. However, for the time being, I really don't think Billy wrote/writes emo lyrics.

Nonsense lyrics, yes.

Emo lyrics, no.

WHY DON'T YOU WRITE A FUCKING ESSAY ABOUT IT HOLY GOD

"Emo" is a term that originally referred to a genre of extremely emotive, confessional music in the vein of acts like Bring Eyes (though some still consider Weezer to be the original "emo" band).
lol

I can tell already that this thread is going to annoy me.

Someone let me know when it gets off topic and interesting.

its my firm belief that bc could write good-great lyrics every time if he wanted to, but doesn't because it takes less time to write bullshit lyrics which thus affords him more time to churn out superfluous tokenistic b-side material.

i think the coil my tongue around a bumblebee mouth lyric isn't bullshitty though, its an aptly poetic description of the frustration of not feeling able to adequately express one's anger about something. the lyric sounds like a whirled-up mess because the feeling behind it is too.

The following is taken and altered from another thread, so no need to point that out in a fit of rage:

"Emo" is a term that originally referred to a genre of extremely emotive, confessional music in the vein of acts like Bring Eyes (though some still consider Weezer to be the original "emo" band). Today, it is a derogatory term used in application to any music or musician in general who's lyrics are overly self-indulgent and tend to focus most specifically on anger, sadness, and supposed indifference.

Now let's be clear: there is a distinct difference between using emotive lyrics or having a confessional song (i.e. your mother died and you're writing a tribute to her) on the one hand, and being "emo" ("my birthday parties were empty," or "why doesn't anybody like me?") on the other.

Some artists have some songs that are distinctly personal, but their complete repertoire isn't supersaturated with every little cheesy thought that runs through the lyricist's mind.

This, i.e. being "emo," is something one could accuse Billy of doing in many of his songs.

Though Billy Corgan has on occasion struck lyrical gold, I contend that most of his lyrics are childish and sometimes even stupid. Many of the things he says don't make any sense at all other than to express that he's sad or angry ("clouds in my shower, ghosts in my arms," "coil my tongue round a bumble bee mouth").

I mean, who doesn't want to smack him and yell, "Shut the fuck up and stop whining!" every once in a while? When I was 13, I was totally into it. Now that I'm more emotionally mature, some of the lyrics make me cringe. Many SP fans still feel the same way, especially about songs like "Bullet with Butterfly Wings" and "To Forgive," which sounds like the shallow musings of a loser 13-yr-old. This is in stark contrast to the brilliance of "1979," which really did a fantastic job of tackling the subject of being a "freak" in the generation that was born around the year 1979.

I'm not trying to say Billy Corgan or the Smashing Pumpkins are bad musicians. I believe quite the contrary. My point is that the word "emo," even as a derogatory slur, can be VERY accurately applied to a great deal of SP lyrics.

I understand the aversion to the word, however, because it often makes me think of Bright Eyes bitching about this or that, and I really am not trying to shit all over the Pumpkins. Then again, Bright Eyes' lyrics sometimes aren't all that different from SP's. Some times Billy is even whinier than these douche bag counterparts.

What the fuck happened to the "add a poll" option?! I mean really, what the fuck?
:banging:
:eek:

and im the one with the mallet, biyhotch

hahahhhahahahha

Ok ok, i know, my username is stupid!!!

I can tell already that this thread is going to annoy me.

Someone let me know when it gets off topic and interesting.


what did everyone do tonight?


I had a vocal class and my teacher made me stand in her back garden and sing "In My Life" at full volume. Then she made me sing on front of the woman who came to fix her net curtains. Pretty weird but I'm too self conscious apparantly and this will help my vocal performances. There you go.

that's one of my favorite SP lyrics of all time, actually.

EDIT: referring to bumblebeemouth's post about his/her dumb username.

what did everyone do tonight?


I had a vocal class and my teacher made me stand in her back garden and sing "In My Life" at full volume. Then she made me sing on front of the woman who came to fix her net curtains. Pretty weird but I'm too self conscious apparantly and this will help my vocal performances. There you go.

you should sing at full volume at traffic lights! when people stare at you, just sing louder and really -give- it to 'em.

Its like going to a car forum and calling yourself audi.

Martyr, would you have rather sang its my life instead?

IT'S.
MY.
LIFE.

No "In My Life" works fine. Beatles before Jovi, that's my motto.

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what did everyone do tonight?


I had a vocal class and my teacher made me stand in her back garden and sing "In My Life" at full volume. Then she made me sing on front of the woman who came to fix her net curtains. Pretty weird but I'm too self conscious apparantly and this will help my vocal performances. There you go.

My voice teacher told me the same thing. The self-consciousness, that is. But kudos to you for stepping up. I just quit. I still hate singing when we play, but I just tell myself that my voice has character, and that I don't want to Corganify it.

I just got home from work a bit ago. I played Bingo with old people, made them popcorn, and took some of them outside for cigarettes. Tonight I'm going down to a bar in town that has free tacos on Tuesday nights.

-

i'm gonna go grab some italian beef on my way home, start watching Aeon Flux from start to finish and hopefully finish writing a song i've been working on for a while.

Why don't you use skipgo's photo as an avatar for multiple months in a row? Now we're even.


Woah sick burn! :flame: :flame: :smoke:

I love Bring Eyes...and Weezer too, but don't get me wrong, I thought Sunday is a Real State was the first emo band??? Correct me if I'm wrong guys.

I thought "emo" music in it's current usage refers to artists that write pop punk faux-histrionic joke songs about self-mutilation and not being able to get laid accompanied by glossy, goth-for-toddlers videos.

i'm gonna go grab some italian beef on my way home, start watching Aeon Flux from start to finish and hopefully finish writing a song i've been working on for a while.


Maybe the song will be about giving Charlize the ol' Italian beef.....

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I love Bring Eyes...and Weezer too, but don't get me wrong, I thought Sunday is a Real State was the first emo band??? Correct me if I'm wrong guys.

^ best post in this thread http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon10.gif

You all are in serious denial. If "To Forgive" isn't emo, then the Pope isn't Catholic.

Get a clue.

So I guess you just started this topic with the desperate hope that people would agree with you and feed your ego.

Maybe not totally emo but definetly have written a lot of emo songs, just go listen to Adore live.

still consider Today as the first big emo song hit

Maybe the song will be about giving Charlize the ol' Italian beef.....

HEEY. that's a really good idea!

Maybe not totally emo but definetly have written a lot of emo songs, just go listen to Adore live.

still consider Today as the first big emo song hit

you guys are retards. :rofl:

Adore is not emo.

Gosh you people suck.

^ best post in this thread http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon10.gif

Agreed. I laughed out loud - lol'd, if you will.

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Let's get this back offtopic or closed..........

Let's get this back offtopic or closed..........

My favorite pizza topping is bbq chicken.

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Let's get this back offtopic or closed..........
Oh arent we a fancy french fuck.

ok, in all seriousness, this is really just coming down to an age rift. you've got this trashguy who thinks in terms of 2001, 2002. of course he's gonna think anything remotely emotive is "emo". i don't know that he can really help it. no one's going to change his mind about what he thinks is "emo."

then you've got people a little older who found the pumpkins in late siamese dream/mellon collie land (me). when *alternative* music reached the breaking point and proceeded to bastardize itself into countless shootoffs of grunge and garagerock type music. there was no "emo", by the trashguy's definition. then there are the ::deep sigh:: tr00 fans who've been through all of this and think it's all just a pile of horseshit because it's all another version of something else just being repeated anyway. maybe i'm off on this last one, but it's the vibe i tend to get.

Gosh you're 16.
Gosh were you one of them people who felt somewhat superior cause you were a senior and used shaving cream to state that fact on your windshields and I guess I'd have to say that supreme pizza is only good when mushrooms are omitted .

That really hurts my feelings. I think I'll write a song about it.


I don't think you should write any more songs......

http://myspace.com/thetrashbirds

Oh arent we a fancy french fuck.


the French thing is great.

and quit trying to look like robert plant while you're at it.

Emo is for fags. SP is amazing. End of story.

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I don't think you should write any more songs......

http://myspace.com/thetrashbirds
Ohhh, thats what i call a french fry. BURN.

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Ohhh, thats what i call a french fry. BURN.


Quaid hates me.

Yeah, um, thanks for the promotion.

Yes, I'm sure that post will garner you many new fans. You should send Martyr a fruit basket.

Shut the fuck up Caine. I'm 22. I'm living in the "now." Good bands these days don't spend their time bitching and moaning about how they were lonely when they were little or how they got wanted to cry this one time.

We leave that the nth-wave alternative bands like "My Chemical Romance," "Staind," and "Nickelback."

I like the Pumpkins, but if you are honestly going to defend lyrics like "Clouds in my shower/Ghosts in my arms," which I've seen people bitch about here C-O-N-S-T-A-N-T-L-Y on this board.

Also, for someone who's never talking to me again, you sure don't know when to shut the fuck up.

you're 22? heh, ok.

i stopped paying attention to a lot of this board, so i have no idea what you're talking about with the clouds in the shower line.

and i never said i wasn't talking to you again. just that i wouldn't troll you anymore. which i'm not. calm down, there, big guy. it's ok to be wrong. :: pats your head::

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I like the Pumpkins, but if you are honestly going to defend lyrics like "Clouds in my shower/Ghosts in my arms," which I've seen people bitch about here C-O-N-S-T-A-N-T-L-Y on this board.

You know, it's possible to think the lyrics suck without thinking they're emo. Shocking, I know.

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You're 22!?

wow, are you home schooled?

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There are quite a few graduates here actually.

i gots a degree!! and im smart enough to know that it really doesnt mean anything. Look, the smashing pumpkins are in no way emotional hardcore. And they dont fit that other definition. they arent in the same vein as mcr or panic. They use fucking harps for gods sakes. Lyrically they are different, the style billy uses is much more stream of consciousness and plosive than this.... stuff.

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/thread.

lawl. first band are funny.

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I've faced the fathoms in your deep
Withstood the suitors quiet siege
Pulled down the heavens just to please you
Appease you
The wind blows and I know

I can't go on, digging roses from you grave
To linger on, beyond the beyond
Where the willows weep
And whirlpools sleep, you'll find me
The coarse tide reflects sky



next lot

Turn away,
If you could get me a drink
Of water 'cause my lips are chapped and faded
Call my aunt Marie
Help her gather all my things
And bury me in all my favorite colors,
My sisters and my brothers, still,
I will not kiss you,
'Cause the hardest part of this is leaving you.



guess the mcr lyrics.


ok ok lets try again.


Wrap me in always, and drag me in with maybes
Your innocence is treasure, your innocence is death
Your innocence is all I have
Breathing underwater, and living under glass
And if you spin your love around
The secrets of your dreams
You may find your love is gone
And is not quite what it seemed
To appear to disappear
Beneath all your darkest fears



And if your heart stops beating
I'll be here wondering
Did you get what you deserve?
The ending of your life
And if you get to heaven
I'll be here waiting, babe
Did you get what you deserve?
The end, and if your life won't wait
Then your heart can't take this


right.

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Tear is about his mum. BWBW is wanky anyway. One song doesnt characterise a band, even some of the references in that song are way more intelligent than the average pop band (emo) anyway.

Stop trolling me, im going to bed.

Emo is fake angst, sp lyrics seem more genuine.

^

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:) that singing teacher sounds a little special. anyway, to get the thread back off-topic, holy crap norton antivirus just screwed up the whole system & i had to do system restore

Ok Matthew we all agree with you. Thanks for sticking by us. Bye.

So it's OK that Billy bitches constantly in most of his songs because he actually is depressed? [QUOTE]
yes
[QUOTE]And you've psychologically analyzed the lyrically analogous bands?
I'm awesome that way. ;) (although the awesomeness doesn't transfer into successfully using the quote function)

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For the record, seriously, I respect your opinion and it seems well thought-out. I disagree probably because I was a younger when sp was big, so it seems more "real" to me now. Kind of like how everyone thought the muppet's mouths moved like real people, but when you look at reruns now they just open and close.
(although fu was uncalled for, man)

remember guys this is the same person who called me a homophobe in the man, billy was really faggy, wasn't he thread

this thread is kinda emo.
but i love you all. stop fighting.

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No, this topic is stupid, your question is stupid, YOU are the one incapable of understanding someone else's opinion.

The simple fact is, your opinion sucks and we all know it.

And as for the "You're 16" comment, yeah... you're right. And I'm STILL not ignorant enough to start a retarded thread asking for everyone's opinion and then lash out when people don't agree.

So screwwww you, buddy.

guys remember when someone on the music board asked if belle and sebastian was emo

if you missed that one it was pretty good, fyi

thanks skipgo. anyone think "hate forms a sequence of one by one" refers to this place?

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rofl morecowbell.

ooooh wouldn't that be funny?

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I don't have to agree with you. I read your post(s). I don't consider SP to be an emo band. That's it. You're not going to change my mind.

I linked to your myspace after you had a go at someone else talking about their songwriting and it took around 20 seconds to do so.

What cheap shots did I take?

Just like skipgo said: swooping in from the gen boards for a passing insult. Look at your impressive post count!

well, actually i post here pretty regularly but maybe it would be more often if i weren't so busy putting lead pipes into fudgepacking faggots' brains

Just like skipgo said: swooping in from the gen boards for a passing insult. Look at your impressive post count!

And you ARE a homophone.


:rofl:

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This was probably all caused by the "No, fucker!" option.

But... this thread DOES suck. I read your posts, and I've come to the conclusion (along with many others) that your thread sucks, and we don't all agree with your opinion.

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It was fun. Can't believe you fended off an entire thread full of resistance. Anyone else ever see "12 Angry Men?"

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You responded (more or less), "This thread sucks! Fuck you! You're band sucks! Stop writing music!" <--Cheap shot

Yes?

I don't care enough to defend myself properly but you're way off the mark. Simply put; I find the idea of SP being considered emo (in any fucking way be it lyrics, whatever) insulting and a sign of ignorance. I feel ridiculous even arguing about it.

who do you guys think is the most emo zydeco band

like with the most emotional lyrics

trashbirds you silly goose! Adore isn't my favorite album, it's my second favorite. Mellon Collie is my favorite.

In fact, I DO write sad songs, even emo songs (see, I admit it), but not about high school. I love high school. Jr. High was torture, though. It still haunts me. So i write about it, and the lyrics are probably emo. The music isn't, I don't think. But maybe you'd disagree, since the two of us have differing opinions on emo.

And as for me keeping this thread alive, I haven't had a good argument with a pretentious, mightier-than-thou 20-something for a long time. I always love how people use my age to discount my opinion, when we're talking about emo, a genre of music. I didn't think you had to be past your teen years to have a valid opinion on a genre of music, but apparently youth are ignorant to the entertainment aimed at them, along with everything else in the world.

Man, teenagers sure are dumb!

but really, most entertaining and full o' piss and vinegar thread i've seen in a while. didn't see that coming when i read the original post.

i don't really think sp is emo, but i can see why you think so, trashbirds.
i've always been bothered by the way things get bastardized in various subcultures. Like how the word 'alternative' used to actually mean something, that music really WAS an alternative to the mainstream. And then it just became this kind of ironic moniker that meant absolutely nothing.

here's a really long and possibly boring article to show you why i have a hard time calling sp "emo". Hell, nobody even knows how to define emo, so how can we put sp into that category: here:

(or just gimmie the old tl;dr!)

The Emo genre and subculture has become something that is very hard to define. Because of this it is difficult to trace its ancestry. Most people who claim to be “in the know” cite the D.C. hardcore/punk scene and more specifically the band Rites Of Spring as the founders of emo. However, history has shown that it is rash to attribute the formation of a musical genre to one band. By looking at the musical scenes of the late 1980’s and early 1990’s we can better determine the roots and influences that started and continue to affect the emo genre and subculture.
Before one can understand where “emo” comes from one must first understand what it is today. “I prefer to think of it [emo] as punk rock that’s more melodic and introspective/depressing than hardcore, but still tapping into that primal energy and anger” (DeRogatis 1). This style of music has spawned a subculture of and scene that has been continually growing since the early nineties. Most of the kids look like nerds; wear dark rimmed glasses, chuck taylor high tops, and thrift store clothes. It is pretty easy to stereotype an “emo” kid, which is ironic because no can seem to define “emo” music.

The best way to describe “emo” music is by soft arpeggiated guitars overtop soft airy vocals that build up and release into an orchestra of heavy distorted guitars and then brought back down to the original quiet part. Emo lyrics are generally very poetic and range from topics of lost love to religious beliefs or other emotional subjects. Yet “emo” covers a wide variety of bands these days, from the soft melodic pines of American Football to the hard driving sounds of At the Drive In. How can a genre so large be traced to anything?

The problem is that what one person defines as “emo” is not to the next, it all depends on your point of view. Jason Gnewikow from The Promise Ring states it well, “ I could validate the point that we are an emo band, and I could also go on the other side and invalidate it. It all comes down of whoever’s asking, their perception of what it is” (DeRogatis 3). The prevailing perception of emo usually comes from the band Sunny Day Real Estate. Started in Seattle in 1992, SDRE combined their roots in hardcore with melodic vocals and a “pop” feel. Their 1994 release of “Diary” changed the emo scene forever. “Sunny Day came out of nowhere and changed a lot of peoples lives,” (Kurland 2) says Jeremy Gomez, bass player for the band Mineral. “Most people today when they think of emo think of the The Get Up Kids, Mineral. , and bands like that, that are coming from Sunny Day Real Estate” (DegRatis 3).

Many people argue that Sunny Day is not emo at all. They claim that “emo” rose out of the D.C. hardcore/punk scene and the band Rites of Spring. “[Rites of Spring] was a melodic hardcore group, but what set it apart was the subject matter of its songs. Rather than ranting about revolution and anger, Picciotto sang about lost love and forgotten memories” (Kurland 1). While Rites of Spring did bring a more melodic sound to hardcore/punk, they certainly were not the first, and they also were not the first hardcore punk band to focus their lyrics on other subject matter.

The hardcore/punk scene as a whole had been moving in this direction. A Rolling Stone article in 1985 cites this growing trend, “Primal punk is passé… They have learned how to play their instruments. They have discovered melody, guitar solos and lyrics that are more than shouted political slogans” (Goldberg 1). Bands like Hüsker Dü had been pioneering new avenues in hardcore punk. “For the past two years, Hüsker Dü has been confounding warrior punks and mainstream rockers alike with a rapidly evolving fusion of high-speed thrash, recombinant pop-song structures, and emotionally scared lyric confessions” (Frickle 1).

Rites of Spring put out one full album and an EP; they lasted for a little less than 2 years and played around fourteen shows. Lead singer Guy Picciotta then went on to start the band Fugazi, whom took some of what Rites of Spring started and progressed from there. However, only “to some extent Fugazi moved the legacy of Rites of Spring and Embrace forward, though its music was never quite as emotionally exposed. It would fall on the bands that followed to fashion emo into the style heard today” (DeRogatis 1).

Although the influence of Fugazi and the Washington D.C. scene on emo were substantial, emo, as we know it today did not rise solely from hardcore scene. What is disturbing is that most sources that try to trace the history of emo leave a huge gap between the “D.C. Dischord sound” of the mid to late eighties and Sunny Day Real Estate of the mid nineties. How did emo get where it is today? I propose it was a marriage between hardcore and indie rock with grunge as the father of the bride, paying for the wedding.

While bands like Rites of Spring and Hüsker Dü were breaking new ground in the hardcore scene, a band named Sonic Youth was transforming the indie/underground scene. “Sonic Youth used guitar riff hooks as the bait, but obliterated melodies and conventional song structures with long passages of drone, odd guitar strains and scathing atmospherics” (McGurgan 1). Their 1987 release of Sister would prove to be a hugely influential album.


“On this record they use the soft, warm sound as a base from which each of the song's emotions flower. The effect is comforting and primal, like the hum of a mother cooing her child to sleep. Then out of nowhere, like the opening bars on "(I Got A) Catholic Block," guitars crash in and twist the pervading sense of peace into feelings of disruptive frustration. As the lyrics and the tempo converge and take the song's feelings to a pitch, the pace slows down; the guitars slowly drop off as if the emotions had been spent…” (Neumann 1)

Sonic Youth continued to redefine the predictable rock song by producing progressive albums throughout the 1980’s, following Sister with their masterpiece Daydream Nation. Their influence on rock music is almost unprecedented, especially for a band that never had a Top 40 hit. However, full recognition of their significance would not come until the effect of Nirvana’s Nevermind was felt throughout the rock community.
Another band that was redefining the indie scene at this time was The Pixies. They formed in 1986 when lead singer Charles Thompson placed an ad in Boston for a “bassist for a Hüsker Dü and Peter, Paul, & Mary band” (Kane 1). Once Charles had all the members he needed The Pixies began to write songs and play shows around the Boston area. Their music is typified by stop/start-distorted guitar beneath Thompson’s vocals as he “veers from a whisper to a scream” (1).

“The Pixies' busy, brief songs, extreme dynamics and subversion of pop song structures proved one of the touchstones of '90s alternative rock” (Erlewine 1). However, more importantly The Pixies laid the groundwork for the alternative explosion of the early '90s. They were one of the first indie bands to break through the pop charts giving the lesser-known underground bands of the early 90’s an opening to gain success.

As the eighties moved into the nineties the American youth was looking for a new direction in music. Kids were tired of the fake pop anthems sung only to make a dollar. “There has been a return to the emotionally charged performance, the display of raw power as an assurance of the truthfulness and sincerity of the performer(s)” (Santiago 189). These Generation X’ers wanted music that mirrored their feelings. “They defined nineties rock with an angry metal/punk and rap, which reflected their fears, frustration, desperation, and hopes” (Szatmary 315). Out of this need for emotion, feeling, and true music came the grunge scene and eventually the emo scene.

Seattle’s Sup Pop label arguably was the impetus behind the grunge and emo movements. “Sup Pop scored its first success with Soundgarden” (326). They began signing other similar acts in the early nineties and eventually stumbled upon a local band named Nirvana. The Seattle scene and the “Sup Pop sound” had shaped a worldwide explosion of ripped-jeaned, flannel shirt wearing teenagers. “By the end of 1990, Sub Pop had helped to create the image of Seattle as the site of an exciting, emerging music scene” (328).

Nirvana was the band that broke things open in Seattle. After their first album, Bleach, on Sub Pop, Nirvana went on a European tour with Sonic Youth. Sonic Youth introduced Nirvana to David Geffen, owner of the DGC label. Geffen paid off Sub Pop and singed Nirvana to his label. In 1991 Nirvana released their landmark album Nevermind. “[Nevermind] was the perfect embodiment of punk attitude, classic rock, and pop melody -- the combination of which had never been embraced, or heard before” (Gulla 1).

“In early 1992 Nirvana hit the top of the chart…within a year the band had sold 10 million copies of their debut…” (Szatmary 328). Nirvana was the quintessential overnight success story, giving record labels and garage bands everywhere a dream that they could find or become the next big thing. “Everywhere music critics spoke of the search for the ‘next Nirvana.’ Major labels scoured Seattle for still – unsigned bands” (Bertsch 1). Now the music industry had an ear to the underground and underground bands now had a platform to stand on.

After Nirvana left Sub Pop, they continued to look for new ground breaking talent. They discovered local Seattle band Sunny Day Real Estate and released their first full-length album in 1994. “On "Seven" and "In Circles," the first two songs of its debut album Diary, Seattle's Sunny Day Real Estate practically drew up the blueprints for an entire genre of rock” (Cohen 1). It was with this album “that emo began making waves outside the hardcore community” (Kurland 1).

“Sunny Day Real Estate inadvertently signaled ‘go’ for the emo-core frenzy with Diary” (Cohen 1). Jeremy Egnik's powerful falsetto voice coupled with vast dynamic shifts and heartfelt lyrics typify Sunny Day revolutionary sound. Their influence on the emo community was immense considering the low profile they kept, only doing one interview and never playing a show in the state of California. In 1995, before the release of their second album, LP2, Sunny Day Real Estate disbanded, however, their impact had already been made.

The emo-core genre was now off and running. With bands such as Mineral, Texas is the Reason , and Christie Front Drive following in Sunny Day’s wake the genre had begun planting its roots around the country. Today, emo has evolved into many different styles and sounds with every new band adding it’s own twist to the genre. Because of these artist’s diversity I would not be surprised if many other genres of music will develop from the huge canopy of emo.

Music is something that does not change overnight it evolves slowly yet dramatically. Music advances because artists are constantly pushing the boundaries, striving to be different, striving to be original. No true musician wants to be labeled or put in a box and that is why few bands want the “emo” stereotype. The fact is that the underground/indie scene evolves within itself, even within different genres, labels, and subcultures.

In order to trace this evolution we must look at the scenes and genres in general that contributed to emo. While certain bands become more popular than their other contemporaries, and other great artists are overlooked it is important to touch on the larger more influential group and artists so that a general consensus can be reached. There are far too many bands that have influenced the emo genre to list, however, by looking at the main artists in a genre one can get a general feel of what was happening in that genre at the time.

Rites of Spring and Sunny Day Real Estate did not start the emo genre. They were two of the more influential bands in the development of emo. Emo was the culmination of many bands and genres all brought together at the right place and the right time. Many bands had to build bridges for underground artists to be heard in the mainstream. Many other bands also brought about new sounds and ideas that helped to form the emo sound. With all of these factors in place a band and or a label had to start the wheels in motion forming the emo genre.

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You're far more concerned about this than me buddy. I'm done with you.

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The word "emo" pisses you off that much?

I think you're the one that started the thread off by using the term with all the bullshit negative connotations that come along with the word that don't really mean anything.

"Today, it is a derogatory term used in application to any music or musician in general who's lyrics are overly self-indulgent and tend to focus most specifically on anger, sadness, and supposed indifference."

^Dumbest shit I've read all day.

that was an interesting article skipgo. hadn't thought about the history of emo, just that it seems commercial and now has a negative connotation. maybe that's why people react to thinking of sp as emo. the problem with the term "emo" i guess is that most people don't think of it as creative music, but as more commercial. i don't know. that and gerard way's second cousin was in my class one year (so he said) and the kid never did any work

-

funny being emo (in the context we use it in now) never existed 10-15 years ago

but now looking back on it, people can call the lyrics emo

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thanks for quoting me, before I edited my post

-

it's all good

The go read something else on the gen boards.

or maybe the solution is to not start idiotic fucking threads and then be a whiny bitch when half the board calls you on it

i missed the part where you were only allowed to post in someone's thread if you agreed with them

my god what a fucking mess

As I said many times, ten years ago maybe SP's lyrics could be classified as emo. But since word meanings change ("gay" used to mean happy, now it's generally understood that it means either "stupid" or "homosexual"), I said that by today's standards of what emo is, SP's lyrics are not emo.

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You consider it insulting because you think emo kids are "fags" and "bitches" and you would never even want to be peripherally associated with the term, lest you be dubbed one or the other.


The Trashbirds: Exposing the imaginary bigot in every Netphorian since July 9th.

Or maybe you should go back to the gen boards.

or maybe you should stop posting here

or does it not work both ways

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lol@Bring Eyes

it's hard to imagine what you're problem is with gays.

Homophobe.
LOLFEST!

are you still seriously taking this angle

If you don't read what I post, and it's all good. I'm not gonna leave just so you won't see one small line of text amongst a list of small lines of text whenever you wander over here to shit in someone's mouth. And since you're so into scat-play, it's hard to imagine what you're problem is with gays.

Homophobe.

EDIT: Alternate plan: Put me on ignore and then post about how you can't see my posts! You are so COOL! LOLFEST!



I came back to :rofl: at your homophobe remarks. It's hilarious.

HAHAHAHA ravenguy is a homophobe

there's a lot i could address here but really i think it should be noted there are lot of straight people who are into scat

http://dharma_path.blogspot.com/images/where_is_the_love_blackeyedpeas_cropped.jpg

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Eulogy, it's really too late to join the bashfest. And besides, do you really want to side with a douche like Ravenguy, who thinks that no one should ever discuss the emotive quality of the lyrics, lest he wander over here once a week and have the unfortunate happenstance of clicking on it and then reading every post and then responding?

Come on. Let's not fight.

answer the question i asked, idiot

this has probably been already addressed but i'm not reading this thread

if you think "emo" originally referred to bands like Bring Eyes you're a fucking retard

Bring Eyes?

Is that really a band or were you trying to be witty?

I think it's the second one.

Bright Eyes.. yeah. It's called a typo. If you're going to insult someone, use good material. Typos aren't good material.

Bring Eyes?

Is that really a band or were you trying to be witty?

I think it's the second one.

Bright Eyes.. yeah. It's called a typo. If you're going to insult someone, use good material. Typos aren't good material.

.....

it's a whole new ball game over here, neopryn

oh geez check out the typing police up in here

we're getting schooled now guys

i better bone up on my home row keys before i post over here again

:rofl:

I have to take this moment to say, in all honesty, that I really do love this place. For exactly these reasons.

We're all idiots. At least I can admit it.

http://dharma_path.blogspot.com/images/where_is_the_love_blackeyedpeas_cropped.jpg

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2869216/2/istockphoto_2869216_i_don_t_know.jpg

who is that woman!?

iStockphoto = anonymous

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Bring Eyes?

Is that really a band or were you trying to be witty?

I think it's the second one.

Bright Eyes.. yeah. It's called a typo. If you're going to insult someone, use good material. Typos aren't good material.the typo wasn't an insult. i honestly do not understand how he managed to type "Bring" instead of "Bright" but I plan to refer to him with that moniker from now on because it's brilliant.

there's plenty of other ways to insult Trashbirds here but it's really not worth the time since ravenguy started posting in this thread.

And there are a lot of straight people who don't have a problem with some people being homosexual, bisexual, or transgender. Go figure.

i'm not the one associating getting sexually excited by poop exclusively with homosexuality

-

So... uuuh... why are you here?

If you're going to join in a juvenile internet argument, please don't act like it's anything but that... as though you're mature by saying responding isn't worth your time.

Youz aint foolin' NOBODY!

EDIT: referring to the dude... his username starts with an n. neopryn? I think so.

when are we gonna break it to this guy?

I went to Oberlin, dude.

SHOCKING REVELATION OF THE CENTURY

and btw thanks for the support neopryn (no homo)

-

ravenguy it seems as though the trashbirds has discovered the underground anti-gay movement we're spearheading.

SHIT.

I have an idea!

Let's have a party!

This argument is boring now.

This argument is boring now.

you speak truth.

ravenguy it seems as though the trashbirds has discovered the underground anti-gay movement we're spearheading.

you are pretty close to oberlin if you want to do some fagbashing this weekend

i guess i could drive down to weslyan or sarah lawrence, that's close enough to me and kinda like oberlin

maybe bard

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When they became very well known, in the 90's, I believe they were considered part of the what was then and may still be; "alternative rock" catagory. I've also read the term "psycodelic rock" coined for them. They are in the mix of music that comes after 70's guitars and then 80's "new wave" and the combination of + their own spin on things. Emo...nope I don't think they can be part of Emo because Emo is a 2000's thing. Maybe parts of the music can resemble emo though. Emo is the newer gen of music. though it doesn't sound like an evolutionary step UP the scale to me....though i don't listen to many of the bands considered emo because I grew up in the 90's... it's new to me

-

you are pretty close to oberlin if you want to do some fagbashing this weekend

i guess i could drive down to weslyan or sarah lawrence, that's close enough to me and kinda like oberlin

maybe bard

alright dude, i'll rally the troops. everyone i've talked to about it is really amped up for this weekend.

-

alright dude, i'll rally the troops. everyone i've talked to about it is really amped up for this weekend.

i just want everyone to know this guy goes to notre dame so odds are he's pretty serious

-

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage that Mike Godwin formulated in 1990. The law states:[2]

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Godwin's Law does not question whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,[3] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[4] the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.

-

Are you serious? I'm the idiot, when you suggested committing hate crime on gays in Ohio?

I guess I lose, oh Master of the Hate Crime. How DARE I compare suggested violence toward minorities to the policies of Hitler. WHAT WAS I THINKING?!

you're realllllly not grasping anything that's going on around you.

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How could I be so stupid not to understand the content-infused, intelligent, and overall brilliant nature of your "let's beat up Ohio gays" dialog with ravenguy2000.

Wow, I need to get trained in the language of :netphoria .

no, really. trust me.

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But, skipgo, didn't you miss this shit when mccririck, Dogfighter28, and pale_princess left the board? The hate in hatephoria is back!
i actually like all three of those posters, surprisingly. yep, even dogfighter. (i know, i've just lost more points with neopryn (and everyone else) there. LOTS of them)

you're realllllly not grasping anything that's going on around you.
i do now; it's really pretty funny after all.

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The following is taken and altered from another thread, so no need to point that out in a fit of rage:

"Emo" is a term that originally referred to a genre of extremely emotive, confessional music in the vein of acts like Bring Eyes (though some still consider Weezer to be the original "emo" band). Today, it is a derogatory term used in application to any music or musician in general who's lyrics are overly self-indulgent and tend to focus most specifically on anger, sadness, and supposed indifference.

Now let's be clear: there is a distinct difference between using emotive lyrics or having a confessional song (i.e. your mother died and you're writing a tribute to her) on the one hand, and being "emo" ("my birthday parties were empty," or "why doesn't anybody like me?") on the other.

Some artists have some songs that are distinctly personal, but their complete repertoire isn't supersaturated with every little cheesy thought that runs through the lyricist's mind.

This, i.e. being "emo," is something one could accuse Billy of doing in many of his songs.

Though Billy Corgan has on occasion struck lyrical gold, I contend that most of his lyrics are childish and sometimes even stupid. Many of the things he says don't make any sense at all other than to express that he's sad or angry ("clouds in my shower, ghosts in my arms," "coil my tongue round a bumble bee mouth").

I mean, who doesn't want to smack him and yell, "Shut the fuck up and stop whining!" every once in a while? When I was 13, I was totally into it. Now that I'm more emotionally mature, some of the lyrics make me cringe. Many SP fans still feel the same way, especially about songs like "Bullet with Butterfly Wings" and "To Forgive," which sounds like the shallow musings of a loser 13-yr-old. This is in stark contrast to the brilliance of "1979," which really did a fantastic job of tackling the subject of being a "freak" in the generation that was born around the year 1979.

I'm not trying to say Billy Corgan or the Smashing Pumpkins are bad musicians. I believe quite the contrary. My point is that the word "emo," even as a derogatory slur, can be VERY accurately applied to a great deal of SP lyrics.

I understand the aversion to the word, however, because it often makes me think of Bright Eyes bitching about this or that, and I really am not trying to shit all over the Pumpkins. Then again, Bright Eyes' lyrics sometimes aren't all that different from SP's. Some times Billy is even whinier than these douche bag counterparts.

nah, iz u.

I know they weren't serious about hate crimes. I just think it's a lame joke. In any event, my thread is about to reach page 7 (of crappy, off-subject dialog).

oh yeah you're all over it now

-

i actually like all three of those posters, surprisingly. yep, even dogfighter. (i know, i've just lost more points with neopryn (and everyone else) there. LOTS of them)
this puts a dent in your "old-school posters circle-jerk conspiracy theory" because pale_princess has been here even longer than i have.

I don't like any of this websites posters. But threads like this keep me interested.

I know they weren't serious about hate crimes. I just think it's a lame joke. In any event, my thread is about to reach page 7 (of crappy, off-subject dialog).

well. it's funnier than you might think. (not hate crimes, those are generally not funny unless you're in the kkk or something.)

this puts a dent in your "old-school posters circle-jerk conspiracy theory" because pale_princess has been here even longer than i have.

i never insinuated that all the older posters are jerks. Just a select few.

edit: oh yeah, i forgot about that circle jerk comment i made. anyway, same thing applies; there are just a few of you i was referring to.

Sort of like I'd be all over you, sexy. Mmmmmm...

you're really, really not my type

Skipgo, this whole website=jackasses


:smoke:


End of discussion.

Skipgo, this whole website=jackasses


:smoke:


End of discussion.

i kind of wish i believed that, then i would just leave.

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No, you have to look pass the dumbasses and see into the beauty that is the comical threads that litter Netphoria.

I really am a n00b.

no way really

If you have 500 posts within the span of a month=n00b

no but for real guys i'll never take anyone seriously who has less than 10,000 posts no matter what they have to say

10,000+ posts=Good
below 10,000 posts=n00b

I'm the ultimate noob btw.

-

My candy cane is sexier.

-

Bahw-chicka-wah-wahhh

-

yes, they are as of now. i really think billy has lost his footing... SP lyrics were always obtuse, but they were balanced with really reflective, grounded lyrics (when i woke up from that dream/i was happier than i'd ever been; run away with me tomorrow; the city by the lake/the place where you were born; nobody nowhere understand anything about me/and all my dreams lost at sea). These countered epic theatrics like thru the eyes of ruby, all of adore, and even 33. withough these beautiful, simple lyrics, as billy is now, he has sort of crossed the line to just emo. he needs to reel it in almost half the time, and everything will seem amazing again (zeitgeist could have been a track to do this, but the basic chord strumming is just way too basic to be a top SP track).

-

This turned out to be a great thread guys!

Ravenguy i think you should take a bow, i havent laughed this hard at text in a loooong while.

-

i wish you could delete your own threads, too.

:love:

still going on..........


Did anyone tell him yet?

-

but trashbirds, was this even a necessary "criticism" to make in the first place. bottom line is, sp make incredible music and those other bands don't. bc might have contrived his lyrics sometimes but even if they were angsty, that doesn't mean they invented "emo" or influenced the quality of any of those bands. your whole thread is void

i, sir, do not have cronies.

and no, martyr.

i, sir, do not have cronies.

and no, martyr.


:)



It will be good if it happens.

Trashbirds, your long-winded "analysis" of Pumpkins lyrics is really boring, in addition to being arrogant. You clearly haven't the foggiest clue as to where the emo label came from (hint: not Bright Eyes) and you've started two threads that only seek to put SP in a tinier category box than they already are.

And you didn't answer my earlier question (in the last pointless thread): why do you need so desperately to label everything like lazy music journalists and marketing companies?

yeah! why are you a labelin' motherfucker, matthew?

I like you Caine Walker.

New poll: is the Trashbirds' singer emo? Or just a bad Robert Plant dragqueen?

http://myspace-000.vo.llnwd.net/01110/00/01/1110591000_l.jpg

I like you Caine Walker.

can i be one of your cronies?

-

-

hey matthew, PM me your address. i'm gonna send you one of these:

http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/hobbyist.web.gif

Dude, relax, I didn't even know you went to a drag ball, I just thought this picture was kind of emotional.

And that's your only criteria for something being emo, apparently

-

You think I shouldn't criticize the lyrics because SP is a good band? Should be put a moratorium on threads that criticize SP? Or is it just the lyrics that we can't discuss? Or should the word "emo" be banned because it makes you uncomfortable? Seriously, WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
No, you should just stop spawning threads on subjects you haven't researched.

BTW, I applaud your comfort with your masculinity. :p

Would I be an Ozzy rip-off if my hair was straight and brown instead of blond and curly? :erm:



LOL @ Blond

can i be one of your cronies?


absolutely

-

who the hell says weezer were the first emo band ?

i stopped reading there... but the answer is no and this is kinda stupid

I apologize, but you asked for it.

And I am not insulting your band. Good luck with your musical efforts, but do consider there are other ways to look at music than throwing labels on it.

And, yeah, I shouldn't be getting so irritated with you, but you're digging into my personal life and insulting everything from my band to the way I looked in college, just because you don't like that this thread is on the boards. That's sickening and somewhat frightening.

i think i can pretty confidently speak for everyone when i say that this thread being on the board has little to do with smokin' you on your idiocies outside of it.

That's sickening and somewhat frightening.

You put that up there. No one is stalking you. It's not "digging into" you "personal life" when it's something you yourself posted and linked to on the internet. Shouldn't have put your MySpace in your profile if you're gonna get creeped out and all offended when people make fun of it.

who the hell says weezer were the first emo band ?

i stopped reading there... but the answer is no and this is kinda stupid

oh man, you missed the best parts! take ten and read it. http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif

-

-

No, I'm just bored at work, and you get really riled up, so it's kind of entertaining.

Such is life on the internets. :(

And you piss me off by calling SP lyrics self-indulgent, what can I say...

I barely EVER post threads because the mods don't control the trolling and flaming on this board and this ALWAYS happens no matter WHAT I post.

http://www.scottkoval.com/Fun/CTD/ConnectTheDots.gif

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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but weezer IS emo.

but weezer IS emo.I was referring to the guy who said that he stopped reading when I proved my stupidity for saying that they were.

And how dare I go to drag ball at Oberlin! I'm comfortable enough with my masculinity to wear a dress one night in a year. Sorry you're too afraid of being labeled a "faggot" to relate.

oh totally. if someone referred to me as a faggot or anything of the sort, i'd throw myself off of a fucking bridge.

They were on top of the horn-rimmed emo glasses, you gotta admit
http://www.theonlinemusicsource.com/images/weezer121.jpg

He does look just like Buddy Holly.

-

Dude, relax, I didn't even know you went to a drag ball...

hilarious

oh man, you missed the best parts! take ten and read it. http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif

Wait... do you mean some people are saying yes ?

I still have no guts to read it all... sorry man :p



Not me.

I was just repeating something I had heard. If you hadn't stopped reading, you might have understood that before insulting me. :D


I didn't insult you... Since I only stopped reading there I still got the "this was somewhere else blah blah " and "Some say...". I got the picture that it wasn't your personal opinion... Yeay...

Here's a question: Is there a distinguishable difference between "hipsters" and "emo kids"?

I think it might involve make-up. Hmmm...
Definitely. Emo kids call themselves emo, but hipsters don't call themselves hipsters.

But I think both species wear very tight pants.

I'm now seriously considering leaving the boards.

After reviewing this thread, a few things are clear:
1. This board is full of assholes who come here specifically to insult other people.
2. You can't make analogies at netphoria.
3. You can't misspeak at netphoria.
4. I have given you all too much personal information, and you all seem to have no problem prying into my private life as a result.
5. The longer you post here, the bigger of an asshole you are.
6. Discussing SP on these boards is nearly impossible.

So, yeah, maybe you all "win," I don't know. I'm just done with talking to people who are more likely than not terribly insecure individuals for whom the internet is the only source of perceivable "power" over others. Honestly, posters like Caine and neopryn remind me of 13-yr-olds yelling "FAGGOT!" at everyone in an AOL chatroom.

I'm now seriously considering leaving the boards.



nice.

I'm now seriously considering leaving the boards.

After reviewing this thread, a few things are clear:
1. This board is full of asshole who come here specifically to insult other people.
2. You can't make analogies at netphoria.
3. You can't misspeak at netphoria.
4. I have given you all too much personal information, and you all seem to have no problem prying into my private life, as a result.
5. The longer you post here, the bigger of an asshole you are.
6. Discussing SP on these boards is nearly impossible.

So, yeah, maybe you all "win," I don't know. I'm just done with talking to people who are more likely than not terribly insecure individuals for whom the internet is the only source of perceivable "power" over others. Honestly, posters like Caine and neopryn remind me of 13-yr-olds yelling "FAGGOT!" at everyone in an AOL chatroom.

1. full of? nah. there are some very sweet people on this board. you just attact a certain type.
2. that's like saying dogs <i>don't</i> sniff each other's butts because they like the smell.
3. yeah, don't misspeak.
4. you're *personal* information was right there on the internets for anyone to access. don't get all pissy because netphoria was *crafty* enough to find out what kind of douchebag you actually are.
5. that might actually be valid.
6. meh.

lol, "power." you need to get out of ohio, man. and i'd like to share a secret with you, matt: i like boys. http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon11.gif

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and i'd like to share a secret with you, matt: i like boys. http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon11.gif

as long as he's leaving soon

so do i

and so does ravenguy

yeah we're total homophobes alright.

as long as he's leaving soon

so do i

and so does ravenguy

yeah we're total homophobes alright.After some of the things I've seen ravenguy post (unprovoked), that would be the con of the century.

And he proves the point.

And, no, I DID give out the link to my site at one point. And if having long hair in college and being in a band makes me a douche bag faggot, then pencil me in for cornholing your sweet ass.

dude. seriously. looking up "the trashbirds" on myspace wasn't that hard. i did it without any echem, prodding, from you.

con of the century

<d>

<d>

WE'VE BEEN IMMORTALIZED

Anyway, it's been nice. Caine, sorry I disagreed with you that one time and inadvertently turned you on to trolling me. To the rest of you who troll me in teams: fuck your dead grandmother.

Bye, everyone.

What ? MY granny is dead ?!?!

OMG.. I gotta call my mom

I knew it would turn out this way

*high five*

I actually like boys, too.

Trashbirds, it's a motherfucking message-board. You called Billy's lyrics emo, the majority disagreed, and you were told that was quite incorrect. That's what a messageboard is for.

indeed, hor hee hor haw.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q8Tiz6INF7I"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q8Tiz6INF7I" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

whoops, i guess he'll never read that.

wahoo

i'm surrounded by teh gays! :)

and you <i>love</i> it.

i do.

gays are the original emo

i think you might be onto something there.

He'll be back. New username chosen already.

oh, no doubt. i'm looking forward to it, honestly.

aww, trashbirds is such a hypocrite!!!

He whines because you people used his band/personal info to insult him...

And yet when he and I disagreed he brought up the fact that I'm 16 and in high school! If that's not a cheap shot, I dunno what is.

I'm glad he's gone, then... jerk.

that kid couldn't tell his nutsack from a pincushion.

fuck, i lost all the action! i'm glad this discussion came up in a thread I started...:)
then the poll thread came...and trashbirds freaked out!

^your thread was interesting as well, just less full of good ol' fashioned hate for the op.

maybe when we've been around for a while we'll actually have the ability to generate 8 pages about why we suck, but as n00bs, we usually just get a single page of "fuck yous" it's too bad too, because these are the most entertaining threads

ahhhh... netphoria :)