View Full Version : Black Hawk Down


liarsclub
01-25-2002, 05:52 AM
Black Hawk Shit. It was a degraded Saving Private Ryan, which wasn't that good either. Good action, but craptacular dialogue, cheesy acting, and missing pictures, made this movie an average blockbuster - it should've been released in the summer. Black Hawk Down is the third movie I've seen lately that is getting Oscar buzz - the third that I've thought were mediocre at best (the other two being Mullholland Drive and A Beautiful Mind). Having seen Amelie, The Royal Tenenbaums, and Vanilla Sky recently also, the absurdity is becoming almost overwhelming. The Man Who Wasn't There is next on the list, but if that's a disappointment, I'll have to take out a box office clerk with a 32 oz., 5 lb. Coke to relieve my frustration...

ps - Anybody see In the Bedroom? - what did you think?

PkPhuoko
01-25-2002, 06:00 AM
my only grip is that it was historicly inaccurate. In reality they were rescued by air force paratroopers. Decent flick but not great

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Slunk
01-25-2002, 06:15 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by PkPhuoko:
my only grip is that it was historicly inaccurate. In reality they were rescued by air force paratroopers. Decent flick but not great

</font>

How does it compare to "Behind Enemny Lines" ?

PkPhuoko
01-25-2002, 06:22 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Slunk:
How does it compare to "Behind Enemny Lines" ?

</font>

I personally think it's better. The dialouge seemed more suiting and despite the small inaccuracy with the air force it's pretty much true to every other aspect.

I'd say watch it. It's not gonna be on your top 10 list but it's a decent movie.

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Slunk
01-25-2002, 06:27 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by PkPhuoko:
I personally think it's better. The dialouge seemed more suiting and despite the small inaccuracy with the air force it's pretty much true to every other aspect.

I'd say watch it. It's not gonna be on your top 10 list but it's a decent movie.

</font>

I probably will. It's a Ridley Scott movie so I would have some interest regardless of how bad it is.

That other movie though, behind enemy lines, it look soooo bad from what I've seen on the trailers. Too Gung-ho, especially with Gene Hackman

Jaggie
01-25-2002, 09:14 AM
I thought it was a good movie *shrug*.

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doctor gonzo
01-25-2002, 09:33 AM
you can't go wrong with "The Man Who Wasn't There". it's awesome...

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Unless
01-25-2002, 10:25 AM
I have not seen this movie so can't judge on the propaganda label, but the rest is good to take into consideration if you are going to have opinions that involve the worth of someone's life. I'll post the rest up somewhere else for people who actually read things that are longer than a paragraph.


This movie is a blatantly racist attempt to create support among the U.S. public for a new war against Somalia. According to the Bush Administration, Somalia is at the top of the Pentagon's list of countries to be the next major target of the so-called "war against terrorism."

In his review of "Black Hawk Down," New York Times movie reviewer Elvis Mitchell wrote that the movie "converts the Somalis into a pack of snarling dark-skinned beasts . it reeks of glumly staged racism."


What actually happened in Somalia in 1992-93?


On December 12, 1992, the U.S. sent 28,000 soldiers into Somalia under the cover of the United Nations Operation in Somalia (UNOSOM) in what they said was a "humanitarian mission" to bring food to starving people. The invasion came when a several-year drought that had taken tens of thousands of lives was actually abating. At the time, the evening news showed images of thousands of starving Somalis. What people didn't see was U.S. troops - not delivering food - but instead engaged in daily gun battles and bombing raids in heavily populated neighborhoods. In ten months, more than 10,000 Somalis died as the U.S. engaged in aggressive military action against those who resisted.

Resistance among Somali women, men and even children to the foreign troops became widespread. The Somali people have a long and proud history of resistance. They fought for the freedom of their country from Italian, French and British colonialism - and they resisted the U.S. attempts to recolonize their country.

In the beginning of the military intervention in 1992, Colin Powell, at the time the chairman of the Pentagon's Join Chiefs of Staff, called the invasion a "paid political advertisement" for the Pentagon at a time (less than a year after the end of the so-called Cold War) when Congress was under growing pressure to cut the war budget. Powell opposed calls that that money be used instead for jobs, education, health care, housing and other social needs, and instead sought to maintain the $300-billion-plus military budget.

In reporting on the U.S./UN Operation in Somalia (UNOSOM), the human rights organization Africa Rights stated that troops "have engaged in abuses of human rights, including killing of civilians, physical abuse, theft . Many UNOSOM soldiers have also displayed unacceptable levels of racism toward Somalis ." These abuses included opening fire with machine guns against unarmed protesters, firing missiles into residential areas and outright murder [of] civilians, including many youth. The report states "UNOSOM has become an army of occupation."

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Jaggie
01-25-2002, 10:47 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
This movie is a blatantly racist attempt to create support among the U.S. public for a new war against Somalia. </font>

You, and the reviwer from NYT are both just fucking morons. That's the biggest bunch of bullshit that I have ever heard. I have read the book, seen the movie and also known soldiers who were involved in Somalia and the actions depicted in Black Hawk Down were some of the most heroic in the history of the US military. For those so inclinced, why not check into the story of Master Sergeant Gary Gordon and Sergeant First Class Randall Shughart who were the first two soldiers awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously since the Vietnam War. They were noted as two of the most capable sinpers in our forces in Somalia and as noted in the book and movie, died as heroes, fending off huge crowds of armed Somali militia to protect their fallen comrade. Not to mention the 17 other soldiers who were killed in action in Somalia. And before you even start to bitch about the over 1000 dead Somali militia, let me remind you that they were the cause of the American involvement. They were starving their own people! It was genocide on a massive scale and we came in and saved thousands of lives. Not to mention that it is now known that Aidid was financially backed by bin Laden and that many of the militia who fought in the early 90's were al queda trained. I'm tired of all the anti-American sentiment here just for the sake of being against America. Learn the fucking facts before you just start badmouthing people who were bigger men than you could ever dream to be.

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All rights reserved, all wrongs reversed.

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tweedyburd
01-25-2002, 11:08 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
According to the Bush Administration, Somalia is at the top of the Pentagon's list of countries to be the next major target of the so-called "war against terrorism."


</font>

Um... we just made big diplomatic agreements with Somalia. They want to be our next 'Northern Alliance buds' to fight against radical Islamics.

tweedyburd
01-25-2002, 11:11 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by liarsclub:


ps - Anybody see In the Bedroom? - what did you think?</font>


I saw it a few weeks ago and its effect is still re-occuring to me. Tom Wilkinson gives the best performance of this year and as good as any other year.

Unless
01-25-2002, 11:14 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Jaggie:
You, and the reviwer from NYT are both just fucking morons. That's the biggest bunch of bullshit that I have ever heard. I have read the book, seen the movie and also known soldiers who were involved in Somalia and the actions depicted in Black Hawk Down were some of the most heroic in the history of the US military. For those so inclinced, why not check into the story of Master Sergeant Gary Gordon and Sergeant First Class Randall Shughart who were the first two soldiers awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously since the Vietnam War. They were noted as two of the most capable sinpers in our forces in Somalia and as noted in the book and movie, died as heroes, fending off huge crowds of armed Somali militia to protect their fallen comrade. Not to mention the 17 other soldiers who were killed in action in Somalia. And before you even start to bitch about the over 1000 dead Somali militia, let me remind you that they were the cause of the American involvement. They were starving their own people! It was genocide on a massive scale and we came in and saved thousands of lives. Not to mention that it is now known that Aidid was financially backed by bin Laden and that many of the militia who fought in the early 90's were al queda trained. I'm tired of all the anti-American sentiment here just for the sake of being against America. Learn the fucking facts before you just start badmouthing people who were bigger men than you could ever dream to be.
</font>

OH Lord here it comes. Before you get your little ego in a twist why don't you first read the first part again where I said I have not seen this movie so I have no opinion on the propaganda label. Also no, the article is not complete bullshit but when u read it it in your head spouts up images of American Flags burning. No one is putting down "individuals" with heroic efforts and causes, but critisizing the gov't for its strategies is by no means "anti-american" but pro-american future suggestion. I don't agree with everything we are doing in the Middle East or have done but because of our pick-up stick method I think alot of it is necessary. But I'm willing to bet if I saw the movie Black Hawk Down it would present the situation alot more black and white, good vs. bad, than it really is. I prefer not to get confused between whats necessary, a quick move and whats riteous. I honor and respect the people who risk their lives to help others but their reasons for doing it are not always the reasons why they are there. Now for once can't someone just cut/paste an article that doesn't have the rockets bursting in air mood that presents all americans as perfect while it presents all the interferences as evil scum. Also this is an article so leave me out of it, if I wanted you to judge me but what I write, than I'd write it myself but yea I enjoyed this article so that much you know. And you don't know anything else about me, so don't assume that I do things for the sake of sakes or that you know what I would and wouldn't risk my life for. FACT is you don't so lets keep this out of being a personal attack. I haven't attacked you yet, called you names, or attacked even just your opinions. You started by assuming I was anti-american and pretending to know me well enough to call me names and judge my worthiness. Damned if i want people like you making decisions about the "proper" course of the world.

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Unless
01-25-2002, 11:16 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Um... we just made big diplomatic agreements with Somalia. They want to be our next 'Northern Alliance buds' to fight against radical Islamics.
</font>

Well lifes a chess game. But sorry that doesn't seem like a wonderful thing that symbolizes peace and prosperity. Its a little muddy.

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Jaggie
01-25-2002, 11:31 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
OH Lord here it comes. Before you get your little ego in a twist why don't you first read the first part again where I said I have not seen this movie so I have no opinion on the propaganda label. Also no, the article is not complete bullshit but when u read it it in your head spouts up images of American Flags burning. No one is putting down "individuals" with heroic efforts and causes, but critisizing the gov't for its strategies is by no means "anti-american" but pro-american future suggestion. I don't agree with everything we are doing in the Middle East or have done but because of our pick-up stick method I think alot of it is necessary. But I'm willing to bet if I saw the movie Black Hawk Down it would present the situation alot more black and white, good vs. bad, than it really is. I prefer not to get confused between whats necessary, a quick move and whats riteous. I honor and respect the people who risk their lives to help others but their reasons for doing it are not always the reasons why they are there. Now for once can't someone just cut/paste an article that doesn't have the rockets bursting in air mood that presents all americans as perfect while it presents all the interferences as evil scum. Also this is an article so leave me out of it, if I wanted you to judge me but what I write, than I'd write it myself but yea I enjoyed this article so that much you know. And you don't know anything else about me, so don't assume that I do things for the sake of sakes or that you know what I would and wouldn't risk my life for. FACT is you don't so lets keep this out of being a personal attack. I haven't attacked you yet, called you names, or attacked even just your opinions. You started by assuming I was anti-american and pretending to know me well enough to call me names and judge my worthiness. Damned if i want people like you making decisions about the "proper" course of the world.

</font>

First off, I never said you were anti-American, because as you said, I don't know you. I said there was a lot of anti-American sentiment on these message boards, which was propagated by your post. I called both you and the reviewer morons because in my opinion you are. I am not one of those blind patriots that has no clue as to the truth of military history. I know what went down in Somalia and I know the reasons why. I called you a moron because in a post about a movie depicting the heroism of soldiers in Somalia you had the gall to post an idiotic review that condemned the movie as racist! And you really should see the movie because it's not what you think. It doesn not even attempt to pass judgement on our reasons for being there. It is simply a recounting of the grunt work of the soldiers. It sheds light onto what it is like to actually fight in a war, the relentless horror. So before this even goes further, we should be on levbel ground. Go see the movie and then come back and say shit. Even better, go read the book, it's more complete.

Unless
01-25-2002, 12:05 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Jaggie:
First off, I never said you were anti-American, because as you said, I don't know you.</font>
Thats good, I'm not.
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Jaggie:
I said there was a lot of anti-American sentiment on these message boards, which was propagated by your post. I called both you and the reviewer morons because in my opinion you are. </font>
Yes there is a lot of sentiment on the subject everywhere. But whats moronic is the assumption that any of them are BLIND pro-american or anti-american posts. It effects us all. You are generalizing as people do with democrats and republicans. don't be so quick to clump people off. In my opinion you are a self-riteous small picture lover, but I mean you at least could be wrong. Sorry I don't claim to be high enough to not retaliate cheap shots with cheap shots but neither are you so nothing lost, nothing gained.
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Jaggie:
I am not one of those blind patriots that has no clue as to the truth of military history. I know what went down in Somalia and I know the reasons why. I called you a moron because in a post about a movie depicting the heroism of soldiers in Somalia you had the gall to post an idiotic review that condemned the movie as racist!</font>

Don't feel the need to declare that you aren't. Remember, I didn't call you a moron. I can easily see how this movie (that i haven't seen) would appear racist if it doesn't not present the average somalian individual accurately, but can't just that yet. It is presenting obviously the average American who is heroicly fighting. I wander how different it would be presented from the average Somalian who is heroicly fighting. But maybe you can tell an idiot really well, I could judge your educated opinion in comparison with this man's educated opinion alot better if i knew if he would refer to you as an idiot.
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Jaggie:
And you really should see the movie because it's not what you think. It doesn not even attempt to pass judgement on our reasons for being there. It is simply a recounting of the grunt work of the soldiers. It sheds light onto what it is like to actually fight in a war, the relentless horror. So before this even goes further, we should be on levbel ground. Go see the movie and then come back and say shit. Even better, go read the book, it's more complete.</font>

I just might see it. One thing that has come out of this, since I am at least trusting that you have insight into the figurative history of these events, is that I think i might be able to go see it and have it be alittle more special than your average good guy/ bad guy movie. I understand it being about the grunt work of soldiers. Which is funny because that has nothing to do with what the article you are so hot about is critisizing. It does NOT critisize the American soldiers. If it did I probably wouldn't have found it interesting at all. Since I respect them and know them. I wouldn't want to read something that seemed to deteriorate the worth of my friends and family. I'm sure I will come back and say something about it if i see or read it but don't bother replying if you have already decided it will be shit. We can just let this conversation stand because that is has valid as its gonna get.


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Unless
01-25-2002, 12:10 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Jaggie:
Learn the fucking facts before you just start badmouthing people who were bigger men than you could ever dream to be.
</font>

Oh just so we can get to know eachother at all. I don't dream to be a man at all, because I'm female. But invalid, I'd bleed to death just the same as any man if my life would make an outcome better.

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tweedyburd
01-25-2002, 12:25 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
Well lifes a chess game. But sorry that doesn't seem like a wonderful thing that symbolizes peace and prosperity. Its a little muddy.

</font>

Way to back up and punt.

Jaggie
01-25-2002, 12:26 PM
The way I see it, 19 American heroes died as just that, heroes. 10,000 Somali militia, who I will reiterate were killing their *own* people by starving them, died as savage cowards. I am not ignorant enough to believe that innocents didn't die as well. It is more than unfortunate that innocent civilians died. But I don't believe that this movie is racist because it doesn't show the side of the Somali militia. You have to remember, this isn't a fictitious story. It truly happened and the book was written from interviuews from equal amounts of Americans and Somalis. Yes that's correct, both points of view are portrayed in the book. Even with both points of view, I can objectively say that the Somali militia men were savages who prayed on their own to further their "cause".

You call me self-righteous which is defined as "narrow mindedly moralistic." And yes, I may be moralistic, but by no means am I narrow minded. I lived through the events and I read the book and I understand the point of view of both sides. That said, I firmly believe in the American involvement in Somalia. If this was an argument about Iraq, where even I would concur that a good part of the American involvement had to do with oil interests, than I wouldn't be so steadfast in my position (though I would have gladly fought for my country if asked to do so or if the need arose). But Somalia is a poretty clear cut example of the need for American intervention. Yes, it was a civil war. Yes it didn't directly affect our country or our citizens. But it did challenge the human rights of the innocent civilians of Somalia. And we couldn't sit back and watch Europe circa 1940's happen all over again. I again refer back to calling you a moron (which I stand by). I believe you are educated and present your opinion intelligently. But I also believe that you are severly misguided and misinformed about the events in Somalia. This was proven to me when you thought it important to post such refuse as the article from the NYT. I find it absolutely ludicrous that an educated person, such as Mr. Mitchell, would actually believe in the "the U.S. attempts to recolonize their country." Where is his info? What would ever indicate any kind of attempt to recolonize Somalia by America? It is this kind of misinformed, idiotic, and plain out moronic statement by which I base my opinion of calling you and the reviwer a moron. Him for writing it, you for endorsing it.

[This message has been edited by Jaggie (edited 01-25-2002).]

Jaggie
01-25-2002, 12:27 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
Oh just so we can get to know eachother at all. I don't dream to be a man at all, because I'm female. But invalid, I'd bleed to death just the same as any man if my life would make an outcome better.

</font>

And I appologize, I wasn't saying that you should be more man-like but was referring to the phrase of "being a man" which in your case wouldn't apply. I'll re-phrase it to having more guts.

Unless
01-25-2002, 12:39 PM
i cut/paste the article, that included one quote by Mitchell. He didn't write the article, all though that isn't clear by the way I cut and paste it I'll admit. It's actually funny enough from the Society of Philosophical Study of Marxism. So the only thing we can really assume about Mitchell's point of view was that he thought the Somalian's were visually portrayed in film inaccurately. I admitted that I can't say that since I have not seen it. I posted a quote that I said I could not agree with. At least this moron never posted an opinion based on something she claimed to know and didn't. I'll see the film, I'll at least have an opinion on the portrayal of Scott's generalizations. I like alot of movies based on very serious situations that are not historically accurate so I'm not anal about it either. Most movies based on books are just that, based. I might see it and like the film and still agree with the quote. We will see. but good grief, have a nice day.



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killtheyouth
01-25-2002, 12:40 PM
enemy down.

Unless
01-25-2002, 12:42 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Jaggie:
And I appologize, I wasn't saying that you should be more man-like but was referring to the phrase of "being a man" which in your case wouldn't apply. I'll re-phrase it to having more guts.</font>

Haha, well its hard for me to tell sometimes. For some reason in chat rooms and message boards people assume I'm a boy, dunno why. But I got plenty of guts I can tell you, sometimes they spill out at inappropriate times. I can be a real chicken about some very weird people things, but im not a coward.

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THE MACHINA666
01-25-2002, 12:44 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by liarsclub:
Black Hawk Shit. It was a degraded Saving Private Ryan, which wasn't that good either. Good action, but craptacular dialogue, cheesy acting, and missing pictures, made this movie an average blockbuster - it should've been released in the summer. Black Hawk Down is the third movie I've seen lately that is getting Oscar buzz - the third that I've thought were mediocre at best (the other two being Mullholland Drive and A Beautiful Mind). Having seen Amelie, The Royal Tenenbaums, and Vanilla Sky recently also, the absurdity is becoming almost overwhelming. The Man Who Wasn't There is next on the list, but if that's a disappointment, I'll have to take out a box office clerk with a 32 oz., 5 lb. Coke to relieve my frustration...

ps - Anybody see In the Bedroom? - what did you think?</font>

Agreed. Altough if you compare it to crap like Pearl Harbor, it's a sure hit classic.

But all in all, there's nothing much there. Great visuals, as expected from Scott (and Brukheimer (sp? whatever his fucking name)), but empty on many levels.


P.S.
Are you working on a new film, buddy?


[This message has been edited by THE MACHINA666 (edited 01-25-2002).]

Unless
01-25-2002, 12:45 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by killtheyouth:
enemy down.</font>

ha? when does that ever happen http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/wink.gif

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tweedyburd
01-25-2002, 12:45 PM
Oh, and I'm not even going to read the two arguments developing here, but I will say that the whole 'it's a racist' film angle is tired and obvious criticism of the kind that plagued Heart of Darkness years after Conrad wrote it. The nature of the narrative does not inherently ******* the characterization or plight of the opposition because its perspective is one and the same throughout, namely Marlow's (or in the case of BHD, the American soldiers). It's unfortunate, but it's the specifics of war situations that you don't care to characterize or understand the person who is shooting the bullets wizzing by your head. And the perspective of the American soldiers is the one the film is about, so all that quasi-intelligent criticism about the film being 'racist' is irrelevant.

Unless
01-25-2002, 12:49 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Oh, and I'm not even going to read the two arguments developing here, but I will say that the whole 'it's a racist' film angle is tired and obvious criticism of the kind that plagued Heart of Darkness years after Conrad wrote it. The nature of the narrative does not inherently ******* the characterization or plight of the opposition because its perspective is one and the same throughout, namely Marlow's (or in the case of BHD, the American soldiers). It's unfortunate, but it's the specifics of war situations that you don't care to characterize or understand the person who is shooting the bullets wizzing by your head. And the perspective of the American soldiers is the one the film is about, so all that quasi-intelligent criticism about the film being 'racist' is irrelevant.</font>

I have not seen it. But just for opinions sake, if you have, do you think someone who has no ********** knowledge of the subject would get an innaccurate impression of the somalian people? Because if you would say it would give you misconceptions in riteousness than I would say it is not irrelevant, because most people have not read the book.

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Unless
01-25-2002, 12:50 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
I have not seen it. But just for opinions sake, if you have, do you think someone who has no ********** knowledge of the subject would get an innaccurate impression of the somalian people? Because if you would say it would give you misconceptions in riteousness than I would say it is not irrelevant, because most people have not read the book.
</font>

I don't know why that word came up in ****'s its "back ground"

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Unless
01-25-2002, 01:12 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Way to back up and punt.
</font>

u talkin about me or the US? strategy all strategy

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Andrew_Pakula
01-25-2002, 01:17 PM
Well when I went to see this movie I had a choice of seeing either Black Hawk Down or Snow Dogs, obviously I picked Black Hawk Down.

I walked into the movie with extremely low expectations thinking it would probably be a horribly bad U.S. propaganda film(which is was to some degree).

However over all I thought it was a pretty good movie, I think I actually enjoyed it more than Saving Private Ryan.

3 stars maybe...........

Unless
01-25-2002, 01:19 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Andrew_Pakula:
Well when I went to see this movie I had a choice of seeing either Black Hawk Down or Snow Dogs, obviously I picked Black Hawk Down.

I walked into the movie with extremely low expectations thinking it would probably be a horribly bad U.S. propaganda film(which is was to some degree).

However over all I thought it was a pretty good movie, I think I actually enjoyed it more than Saving Private Ryan.

3 stars maybe...........</font>

I still have not seen Saving Private Ryan and have heard so many different opinions about that film its rediculous. I'll see it one day but I'm not in a hurry. Since Shindler's List my expectations of Saving Private Ryan might be a bit too high.

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tweedyburd
01-25-2002, 01:21 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
do you think someone who has no ********** knowledge of the subject would get an innaccurate impression of the somalian people?
</font>

I would say that anyone with a brain would know that they were getting an extreme, war-time version of a group of people who were reacting the way they saw fit on their own turf. All these 'it doesn't represent them well' arguments are irrelevant because it's not what the movie is about. No one is going into that movie wanting to know the plight or history of the Somalian extremists--if they want to know that they can read a book. It's not the movie's job to educate people on the background of those people. Furthermore, it would be historically inaccurate to characterize the opposition because the solidiers themselves didn't get close enough to them to understand them. It was about a mission from their pespective, and they became their enemy. Simple as that.

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
u talkin about me or the US? strategy all strategy

</font>

No, I was just referring to the way in which you tried to re-state what you initially said. Of course it's not a peacful way of conducting diplomacy, but the point was that they are our allies now, not 'the next target of the war on terrorism' as you first said.

Unless
01-25-2002, 01:29 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
No, I was just referring to the way in which you tried to re-state what you initially said. Of course it's not a peacful way of conducting diplomacy, but the point was that they are our allies now, not 'the next target of the war on terrorism' as you first said.

</font>

in order for this to make sense you would first have to understand what I was saying. Which was basically the reasons you gave that I replied to, as far as allies go, do not change it from being a target. So there was no backing up. MY point was that saying it is a target to me does not necessarily mean that we are going to target them with machine guns but with strategy (strategy is necessary I'm not putting that down). the U.S. government shut down the Somali-owned Al-Barakat money transfer company, The U.S. also shut down Somalia Internet Company. Pakistan is our ally to, but it isn't because they decided as a country that they wanna be the good guys too. pay attention. but please don't tell me how you don't agree. I know you don't, i didn't want to get into this kind of discussion.

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[This message has been edited by Unless (edited 01-25-2002).]

Unless
01-25-2002, 01:37 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
I would say that anyone with a brain would know that they were getting an extreme, war-time version of
a group of people who were reacting the way they saw fit on their own turf. All these 'it doesn't represent
them well' arguments are irrelevant because it's not what the movie is about. No one is going into that
movie wanting to know the plight or history of the Somalian extremists--if they want to know that they
can read a book. It's not the movie's job to educate people on the ********** of those people.
Furthermore, it would be historically inaccurate to characterize the opposition because the solidiers
themselves didn't get close enough to them to understand them. It was about a mission from their
pespective, and they became their enemy. Simple as that.

</font>

Simple as that when portraying a basketball game. I disagree, I see it as very dangerous to present to an ignorant country based on the idea of "by the people for the people" a film that presents something as inaccurately good vs. evil. Now if it does not do that than thats fine. I never said it did if you read through this. They don't have to show the history of somalian extremists, extremists, what a funny "irrelevant" word to use. They only have to make their lives seem of the same worth, thats all I ask, otherwise its almost a fairy tale rather than even something based on a book about a subject so serious. Sometimes movies of this genre don't even seem to portray the opposing side as real people.


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Unless
01-25-2002, 01:39 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
...they are our allies...
</font>

lets not forget who else has been our allies in the past, and who are our enemies now...


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MisterSquishyHalo
01-25-2002, 02:04 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by PkPhuoko:
my only grip is that it was historicly inaccurate. In reality they were rescued by air force paratroopers. Decent flick but not great

</font>

Actually.

They were rescued by a combined force of 10th Mtn, and Pakistani and Malaysian Armor.

MisterSquishyHalo
01-25-2002, 02:07 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
I have not seen this movie so can't judge on the propaganda label, but the rest is good to take into consideration if you are going to have opinions that involve the worth of someone's life. I'll post the rest up somewhere else for people who actually read things that are longer than a paragraph.


This movie is a blatantly racist attempt to create support among the U.S. public for a new war against Somalia. According to the Bush Administration, Somalia is at the top of the Pentagon's list of countries to be the next major target of the so-called "war against terrorism."


</font>

You my sir are an idiot. How is it racist? Because they killed africans? Thats where the war was set. And the Movie was in pre production before the whole Osama Bin Laden thing shit hit the fan. So dont think it was just made because of the war effort. It was just good timing.

MisterSquishyHalo
01-25-2002, 02:09 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by THE MACHINA666:
Agreed. Altough if you compare it to crap like Pearl Harbor, it's a sure hit classic.

But all in all, there's nothing much there. Great visuals, as expected from Scott (and Brukheimer (sp? whatever his fucking name)), but empty on many levels.


P.S.
Are you working on a new film, buddy?


[This message has been edited by THE MACHINA666 (edited 01-25-2002).]</font>


Its a war movie what do you want? Romance? Drama? None of those things were in there. It was just a firefight for 18 hours.

Unless
01-25-2002, 02:26 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by MisterSquishyHalo:
You my sir are an idiot. How is it racist? Because they killed africans? Thats where the war was set. And the Movie was in pre production before the whole Osama Bin Laden thing shit hit the fan. So dont think it was just made because of the war effort. It was just good timing.
</font>

no im your DEAR idiot. I don't know, i said I have not seen it to have an opinion on whether or not it is racist. This is some more of the article:

Since September 11, Bush administration officials have held meetings with Hollywood representatives regarding the content of the movies and other material they produce. In an October 17, 2001, meeting, Hollywood heads "committed themselves to new initiatives in support of the war on terrorism."

"Black Hawk Down" is just one of those movies, made hand-in-hand with the Pentagon. Weeks before the release of "Black Hawk Down," the Motion Picture Association of America held a private screening for senior White House advisers, and allowed them to make changes. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Oliver North, among others, attended the movie's Washington, D.C. premiere.

I read articles like this all the time and much of the reasoning such as these last two paragraphs which i didn't ******* in the first post cannot be proved or disproved. You can just choose to believe or not to believe them. I find it HIGHLY likely that this type of thing occurs often and choose to incorporate it in my reasoning. I don't believe everything I read or else I would have given an opinion of whether or not I think its racist, But I won't do that till I see it. No my undermining friend just because "it kills Africans" wouldn't make it racist and nor does this article imply thats what does it, but critisizes how somalia was portrayed, and being intelligent enough to educate yourself on the situation and to determine that I'm an idiot, I think you should be able to deduce that and reply justly without using dirty lawyer tricks.

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Jaggie
01-25-2002, 02:37 PM
I only have one more thing to say about this. The movie was told almost exclusively from the point of view of the American soldiers. But it was based on a book that was written from interviews from equal amounts of Somalis (both innocents and militia) and Americans. Thus, although it didn't have to be, the book does represent both sides of the issue.

Unless
01-25-2002, 02:42 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Jaggie:
I only have one more thing to say about this. The movie was told almost exclusively from the point of view of the American soldiers. But it was based on a book that was written from interviews from equal amounts of Somalis (both innocents and militia) and Americans. Thus, although it didn't have to be, the book does represent both sides of the issue.</font>

thanks, honestly. I don't hear much about the book ever, only the movie. It is like that with alot of things and I'll be alot more likely to read it now. I am trying to read more books that are more mind-opening to current events, I'm way behind. I get into books quicker that have nothing to do with the way things really are but it gets kind of depressing when u come back and realize that life is not really like that.

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MisterSquishyHalo
01-25-2002, 04:24 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
no im your DEAR idiot. I don't know, i said I have not seen it to have an opinion on whether or not it is racist. This is some more of the article:

Since September 11, Bush administration officials have held meetings with Hollywood representatives regarding the content of the movies and other material they produce. In an October 17, 2001, meeting, Hollywood heads "committed themselves to new initiatives in support of the war on terrorism."

"Black Hawk Down" is just one of those movies, made hand-in-hand with the Pentagon. Weeks before the release of "Black Hawk Down," the Motion Picture Association of America held a private screening for senior White House advisers, and allowed them to make changes. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Oliver North, among others, attended the movie's Washington, D.C. premiere.

I read articles like this all the time and much of the reasoning such as these last two paragraphs which i didn't ******* in the first post cannot be proved or disproved. You can just choose to believe or not to believe them. I find it HIGHLY likely that this type of thing occurs often and choose to incorporate it in my reasoning. I don't believe everything I read or else I would have given an opinion of whether or not I think its racist, But I won't do that till I see it. No my undermining friend just because "it kills Africans" wouldn't make it racist and nor does this article imply thats what does it, but critisizes how somalia was portrayed, and being intelligent enough to educate yourself on the situation and to determine that I'm an idiot, I think you should be able to deduce that and reply justly without using dirty lawyer tricks.

</font>

Look I understand you havent seen the movie, but basically the Book=the Movie, LIke Jaggie says. ALthough Bowden interviewed alot of somali's on their accounts of the battle. This movie was made for America. If you tried to fit everything in, this movie would have run well over three hours. Some things had to be cut, the Somali stuff was cut. Not cause it was being racist, but well, because this movie was about the 18 soldiers who died. Not about the 1000 somali's who died.

Unless
01-25-2002, 04:30 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by MisterSquishyHalo:
Look I understand you havent seen the movie, but basically the Book=the Movie, LIke Jaggie says. ALthough Bowden interviewed alot of somali's on their accounts of the battle. This movie was made for America. If you tried to fit everything in, this movie would have run well over three hours. Some things had to be cut, the Somali stuff was cut. Not cause it was being racist, but well, because this movie was about the 18 soldiers who died. Not about the 1000 somali's who died.
</font>

Yes me understand. But implying does not require showing it from the point of view of the somalians. The opinion of this reviewer obviously thinks that they were portrayed inaccurately, implying that they were evil and not just people which i think is a serious accusation especially when this Bin Laden shit as hit the fan as you said. Did you see the movie? did you feel that way? Jaggie did not think the movie he saw implied that so he disagrees justly, some people apparently feel it does.

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I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too
"He said, "You're not Him

tweedyburd
01-25-2002, 05:14 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
I disagree, I see it as very dangerous to present to an ignorant country based on the idea of "by the people for the people" a film that presents something as inaccurately good vs. evil. </font>

It's only presented in that black and white way because you're making it out to be. Sensible Americans know the difference. Apparently you're not one of those.


<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:

They only have to make their lives seem of the same worth, thats all I ask,
</font>

Hollywood has no obligation to do that, especially with this film because it wasn't the point of the film to show the 'inner worth of the Other' or whatever. It was about a mission and the soldiers' perspective of said mission and what happened when it went wrong. The movie does its job in that way and to ask it to show sympathy or empathy of any kind to the opposition belittles the mission and the historical perspective of the soliders, which the film portrayed. The film isn't about what you think it should be, and to do so would be to compromise its perspective.

Unless
01-25-2002, 05:30 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
nothing
</font>

what are u sticking up for that first little invisipoint made no analytical sense, I hope it didn't take you long to think up. How something is portrayed has nothing to do with intelligence, portrayed is outward, contrived is inward. I did not see it so I never said what I thought so be intelligent enough to absorb that you can't read my mind. I respect Jaggies opinion on the film, because he knows what hes talking about, your just worried about making comebacks. Same for the second part, I didn't see anything worth replying to the first time i read through, I'll pain myself to read it again to see if i notice somethign......



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I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

Unless
01-25-2002, 05:32 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Hollywood has no obligation to do that, especially with this film because it wasn't the point of the film to show the 'inner worth of the Other' or whatever. It was about a mission and the soldiers' perspective of said mission and what happened when it went wrong. The movie does its job in that way and to ask it to show sympathy or empathy of any kind to the opposition belittles the mission and the historical perspective of the soliders, which the film portrayed. The film isn't about what you think it should be, and to do so would be to compromise its perspective.
</font>

nah nothing that has anything to do with anything ive said



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I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

THE MACHINA666
01-25-2002, 05:42 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by MisterSquishyHalo:

Its a war movie what do you want? Romance? Drama? None of those things were in there. It was just a firefight for 18 hours.

</font>

How about depth? You know... what makes a movie better, 95% of a time. If I want to see firefights, building blowing off and lots of shoot-out for almost 2 and a half hours, I have plently of choices.

BHD missed that "depth" part (although I have my reasons why the director, who is no fool, did it this way) if you ask me, therefore I think this movie is just average.

Though I have to admit "war" flicks aren't my forte.



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tweedyburd
01-25-2002, 06:21 PM
Um... I addressed everything you said, dipshit. I'm sorry if you can only accuse me of not doing so. Perhaps if you didn't build your arguments on a platform of incoherence, you'd be a little more effective in what you're trying to say.

And why am I ever arguing with someone whose opinion is extraneous, being that you've not even seen the damn film. Ah, if only all of us could site a bunch of articles and let them speak for us...

Graveflower
01-25-2002, 06:25 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by THE MACHINA666:
(the director, who is no fool)

</font>

Wait, have you seen GI Jane?

raindrops + sunshowers
01-25-2002, 06:54 PM
If it's anything like Gladiator, in which characters were archetypes and death was mere spectacle, I completely understand why people would consider it racist.

However, I haven't seen it, so I have no idea if it's like that or not.

Unless
01-25-2002, 07:01 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Um... I addressed everything you said, dipshit. I'm sorry if you can only accuse me of not doing so. Perhaps if you didn't build your arguments on a platform of incoherence, you'd be a little more effective in what you're trying to say.

And why am I ever arguing with someone whose opinion is extraneous, being that you've not even seen the damn film. Ah, if only all of us could site a bunch of articles and let them speak for us...</font>


I can't help it if you have to invent what you cohere to. How can my opinion be extraneous when i never gave it, oh yes because you are psychic. let me tell you.. YOU CALL CAN! the choice is yours, I choose not to. But if I misinterpreted as easily as you I might want to let another person speak for me. oh yea and did you see the movie? because if you did you haven't said so yet, I'd like to assume you had but I really think if you had it would have been useful to you way before this point.


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I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

Unless
01-25-2002, 07:22 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
Wait, have you seen GI Jane?</font>

hahahaha



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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

THE MACHINA666
01-25-2002, 08:11 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
Wait, have you seen GI Jane?</font>

Bwhehehe... Good point.

But it's like if I was judging you entirely by taking only one or 2 of your replies. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/wink.gif




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The Sacred and Profane
01-25-2002, 08:15 PM
<font color=00ccff>I've never really been a fan of War Movies.

numberthirteen
01-25-2002, 10:14 PM
I dislike Elvis Mitchell


Black Hawk Down is no cinematic masterpiece. It seems as if Ridley Scott is content with just capturing the action on film and cannot be bothered with aesthetics, mise en scene, etc. But I'm nitpicking- When the movie is put in context of actuality, it becomes an American masterpiece.

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I want his heart. I want to eat his children. Praise be to Allah ... I want to rip out his heart and feed it to him.

Nate the Grate
01-25-2002, 10:42 PM
my city (Lewiston) has been a gathering spot for Somalians (btw, they're not even freakin called "Somalis". they're Somalians). there are a ton of Somalians in my school. I've talked to a bunch of them. they say the Americans were the best thing that ever happened to their country. most of them wanted to get out of there, but didn't have anywhere to go. when we stepped in, and they saw what we were doing, they realized that America was the place to be. Apparently the Somalians who have gone to see it say it is very representational of what happened. many have become very emotional when at the theatre (from what I've heard).

so yeah, good movie.
and whoever that guy was that was saying the US did the wrong this is sadly mistaken.

Lunadisarm
01-25-2002, 11:00 PM
I thought it was good, intense, and gripping. For everyone that has said that the movie lacks depth, I ask you one question: how would YOU make it better? Do you want breaks in the action for a character to belt out a monologue about how he is feeling isolated, across the ocean, and deeply afraid of dying? Come on, it portrayed the intensity of battle and the emotions that the people felt in a way that made you feel as if you were there watching it in live action. THAT is gripping to me at least.

~beth

liarsclub
01-26-2002, 12:21 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Lunadisarm:
I thought it was good, intense, and gripping. For everyone that has said that the movie lacks depth, I ask you one question: how would YOU make it better? Do you want breaks in the action for a character to belt out a monologue about how he is feeling isolated, across the ocean, and deeply afraid of dying? Come on, it portrayed the intensity of battle and the emotions that the people felt in a way that made you feel as if you were there watching it in live action. THAT is gripping to me at least.

~beth</font>

How would I have made it better? Well, first, I would've told the story without having a bunch of yahoos running around, prentending to look and act like Rangers, Delta Force, etc. talking with Hollywood lines that sound like leftovers from Armageddon. Next, Ted Sizemore would've never been directed to act like Duvall's Kilgore from Apocalypse Now - that was completely unforgivable. Then, I wouldn't have had so many buddy combinations - stick to one or two and leave it at that. AND ETC.

Basically, the dialogue and the weak characters (who stood out in the movie?!) ruined this movie. In fact, the actual event wasn't even a good idea for a movie in the first place - it should've been a documentary instead. That's how I would've made it better - I would've made it a documentary or even a mix. But, to have it as just as action movie with no characters or dialogue is just boring and too Arnold for me.

It's all about storytelling and this movie does nothing of the sort - BHD is just blanks and explosives. If that grips you and makes you like the movie, more power to you - I just look for something more in film.

ps - if this movie was to build racial tensions, they would've included the American soldiers being drug through the streets by the Somalians - most visually shocking part of the story and Ridley left it out...

tweedyburd
01-26-2002, 01:50 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:

I can't help it if you have to invent what you cohere to. How can my opinion be extraneous when i never gave it, oh yes because you are psychic.

</font>

You gave your opinion on what the film's angle might be, from the perspective of some half-wit critic trying to over intellectualize the portrayal--must I go back and quote you? What else is your presence in this thread been for other than to justify your uninformed opinion by subtly veiling it with someone elses argument?

Baby steps, folks. Baby steps.



[This message has been edited by tweedyburd (edited 01-26-2002).]

The exploding boy
01-26-2002, 02:51 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
Wait, have you seen GI Jane?</font>

But have you seen alien, blade runner, the duellists?

THE MACHINA666
01-26-2002, 02:33 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by liarsclub:
How would I have made it better? Well, first, I would've told the story without having a bunch of yahoos running around, prentending to look and act like Rangers, Delta Force, etc. talking with Hollywood lines that sound like leftovers from Armageddon. Next, Ted Sizemore would've never been directed to act like Duvall's Kilgore from Apocalypse Now - that was completely unforgivable. Then, I wouldn't have had so many buddy combinations - stick to one or two and leave it at that. AND ETC.

Basically, the dialogue and the weak characters (who stood out in the movie?!) ruined this movie. In fact, the actual event wasn't even a good idea for a movie in the first place - it should've been a documentary instead. That's how I would've made it better - I would've made it a documentary or even a mix. But, to have it as just as action movie with no characters or dialogue is just boring and too Arnold for me.

It's all about storytelling and this movie does nothing of the sort - BHD is just blanks and explosives. If that grips you and makes you like the movie, more power to you - I just look for something more in film.

ps - if this movie was to build racial tensions, they would've included the American soldiers being drug through the streets by the Somalians - most visually shocking part of the story and Ridley left it out...</font>

Could not have said it better. Some people are fine w/ explosions and a "fake showing of reality" (far too gracious images to be taken "as if I was there, in the live action"). That's ok I guess.

But some people just want more.


Scott probably was under much pressure not to pass too big messages in this film. Some wounds are still fresh you know?



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Unless
01-26-2002, 03:52 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
You gave your opinion on what the film's angle might be, from the perspective of some half-wit critic trying to over intellectualize the portrayal--must I go back and quote you? What else is your presence in this thread been for other than to justify your uninformed opinion by subtly veiling it with someone elses argument?

Baby steps, folks. Baby steps.

[This message has been edited by tweedyburd (edited 01-26-2002).]</font>

To retaliate your comments mainly. I'm not so interested in the film that I would bother talking about it so much if this wasn't fun. You can quote me all you want I really don't care if thats how you want to use your time. Also if you didn't notice the topic is "Black Hawk Down" so whether you have an opinion, agree, disagree or even care it was a post fitting the topic. And I think you are pretty glad I posted it. You got to hear yourself talk.



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I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

Unless
01-26-2002, 03:55 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
[B]
Oh, and I'm not even going to read the two arguments developing here....

B]</font>

looks like someone is capable of forming opinions about things they haven't had insight into...



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I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

Unless
01-26-2002, 03:58 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Nate the Grate:
my city (Lewiston) has been a gathering spot for Somalians (btw, they're not even freakin called "Somalis". they're Somalians). there are a ton of Somalians in my school. I've talked to a bunch of them. they say the Americans were the best thing that ever happened to their country. most of them wanted to get out of there, but didn't have anywhere to go. when we stepped in, and they saw what we were doing, they realized that America was the place to be. Apparently the Somalians who have gone to see it say it is very representational of what happened. many have become very emotional when at the theatre (from what I've heard).

so yeah, good movie.
and whoever that guy was that was saying the US did the wrong this is sadly mistaken.</font>

I've never met anyone from Somalia, that is nice to know.



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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

PhantomFM
01-27-2002, 04:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Unless:
I disagree, I see it as very dangerous to present to an ignorant country based on the idea of "by the people for the people" a film that presents something as inaccurately good vs. evil.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
It's only presented in that black and white way because you're making it out to be. Sensible Americans know the difference. Apparently you're not one of those.</font>

I think you're overestimating the average America and underestimating the power of a 2hour movie complete with special effects and a moving soundtrack. and I think that despite the movie being in production before sept11 its slant was doubtlessly changed after that day I can't imagine that it wouldn't of been a change toward the patriotic, even if it was a patriotic film to begin with.

But that's as far as I disagree with you- i think unless was taking offense where no offense was given and then it erupted, though I did only read page 2 of this thread. I hope this thread ends with you two kissing and making up


Hollywood has no obligation to do that, especially with this film because it wasn't the point of the film to show the 'inner worth of the Other' or whatever. It was about a mission and the soldiers' perspective of said mission and what happened when it went wrong. The movie does its job in that way and to ask it to show sympathy or empathy of any kind to the opposition belittles the mission and the historical perspective of the soliders, which the film portrayed. The film isn't about what you think it should be, and to do so would be to compromise its perspective.

[/QUOTE]



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PhantomFM (http://phantomfm.8m.com)

TheEdgeboy
01-27-2002, 05:01 PM
its nice to see so many people being passionate about this issue. In the climate of "Im too cool to care about anything" where I live its refreshing to see this type of discussion on, among other things, Nationalism.

I could go on and on and on about this topic...I'd just like to mention the New York Times writer is an intellectual lightweight, if he's that heavy. A great example of the type of thinkers journalism schools are producing these days.

tweedyburd
01-27-2002, 05:29 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
You got to hear yourself talk.

</font>

Pot, kettle, black?

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
looks like someone is capable of forming opinions about things they haven't had insight into...

</font>

No, it's just that I read the first few lines of your pseduo-argument and saw that it was very obvious, tired criticism and that I didn't need to read your incoherence to formulate what I needed to know about your position.

Thanks for playing.

Unless
01-28-2002, 10:13 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
No, it's just that I read the first few lines of your pseduo-argument and saw that it was very obvious, tired criticism and that I didn't need to read your incoherence to formulate what I needed to know about your position.

Thanks for playing.
</font>

Your opinion, tired criticism. My opinion, its an important issue. I have not put down your opinion although I disagree because I try not to insult people for being different than me. I've just exchanged cheap personality shots with you, I definately don't have a problem being petty, its pretty easy on a message board. Your attitude towards me for simply disagreeing with what you deem to be a small issue is not justifiable. I don't think underestimating someone who you don't know's personality is really reflective of a wise person. But you have striven to prove on a message board that you are an ensightful person through wise cracks. Luckily I don't believe everything I read or I might think you were, based solely on your vocabulary. Typical message board attitudes, but honestly you could have just been one of those "shut up" post people, it would have used alot less time and been just as influential. I tend to value the opinions of people more who treat me like a human being, but you weren't going for educational here. The pots not calling the kettle black, the pots saying the kettle boiled over and the pot through it back.
Thanks for playing? Anytime

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

tweedyburd
01-28-2002, 12:19 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
I tend to value the opinions of people more who treat me like a human being
</font>

lol

Unless
01-28-2002, 12:22 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
lol
</font>

just as good as shut up

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

tweedyburd
01-28-2002, 12:24 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by MisterSquishyHalo:
Look I understand you havent seen the movie, but basically the Book=the Movie, LIke Jaggie says. ALthough Bowden interviewed alot of somali's on their accounts of the battle. This movie was made for America. If you tried to fit everything in, this movie would have run well over three hours. Some things had to be cut, the Somali stuff was cut. Not cause it was being racist, but well, because this movie was about the 18 soldiers who died. Not about the 1000 somali's who died.

</font>

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Useless:
Yes me understand.
</font>


<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
It was about a mission and the soldiers' perspective of said mission and what happened when it went wrong. The movie does its job in that way and to ask it to show sympathy or empathy of any kind to the opposition belittles the mission and the historical perspective of the soliders, which the film portrayed. The film isn't about what you think it should be, and to do so would be to compromise its perspective.

</font>

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Useless:
nah nothing that has anything to do with anything ive said

</font>

I particularly enjoy how you give two completely different responses to two statements that are basically the same. Heh...



[This message has been edited by tweedyburd (edited 01-28-2002).]

BeautifulLoser
01-28-2002, 12:30 PM
This thread amuses me.

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AIM: JenniferZero

http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/spaceghost/img/mainpage/doom.jpg

ZORAK: Let's start a band!
MOLTAR: Yeah! We'll call it "Freedom"! I like that.
ZORAK: That sucks.
MOLTAR: But "freedom" rhymes with "We From," like "We From the Land of ROCK!"

Unless
01-28-2002, 12:31 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by BeautifulLoser:
This thread amuses me.
</font>

Well then I was good for something http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/smile.gif

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

Graveflower
01-28-2002, 12:34 PM
Unless, please fuck off.

You turned a thread about a MOVIE into some stupid platform for your ridiculous, unfounded, overly liberal bullshit, and your command of the english language is even worse than Samsa's.

doctor gonzo
01-28-2002, 12:35 PM
win.

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www.nevercrashnow.com (http://www.nevercrashnow.com)

Crippler
01-28-2002, 12:36 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
You turned a thread about a MOVIE into some stupid platform for your ridiculous, unfounded, overly liberal bullshit</font>

<font color="aquamarine">It's true, I'm afraid...

Unless
01-28-2002, 12:40 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
I particularly enjoy how you give two completely different responses to two statements that are basically the same. Heh...

[This message has been edited by tweedyburd (edited 01-28-2002).]</font>

yea, I appologize, I'm being rude. I at least acknowledged I understood him, you I admitted to ignoring because I'm saying its important your saying not only is it not important, but not valid, which deserves ignoring. Your opinion is not of more worth than anyone elses. It has nothing to do with what I'm saying because It would not compromise its prospective, Heroes can be Heroes even if they aren't fighting the devil. I understand what you say as well... I disagree about its importance. I disagreed with him too, quote the rest of it, it will be fun.

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

Unless
01-28-2002, 12:42 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Graveflower:
Unless, please fuck off.

You turned a thread about a MOVIE into some stupid platform for your ridiculous, unfounded, overly liberal bullshit, and your command of the english language is even worse than Samsa's.</font>

If liberal is the label I get for acting this way thats fine. I'd rather be "liberal" than whatever other catagory you can find to throw people in.

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

Comedy Doesn't Pay
01-28-2002, 01:01 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
If liberal is the label I get for acting this way thats fine. I'd rather be "liberal" than whatever other catagory you can find to throw people in.

</font>

Take out the "n" in your username and replace it with "se", because I think that better defines your ability to debate with others.

Unless
01-28-2002, 01:02 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Comedy Doesn't Pay:
Take out the "n" in your username and replace it with "se", because I think that better defines your ability to debate with others.</font>

thanks, nice to meet you too...

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

tweedyburd
01-28-2002, 01:05 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Useless:
I at least acknowledged I understood him, you I admitted to ignoring because I'm saying its important your saying not only is it not important, but not valid, which deserves ignoring.</font>

Through that haze of language that can only be categorized as Retard, I think what you're trying to say is that you ignored me because I ignored you. There would have been no ignoring in the first place had it not been for your ridiculous posturing. You say the argument you're arguing for is important. I say it's tired not because it's not important, but because it's very obvious and knee-jerk criticism. Those criticisms are ultimately fruitless because they have a different agenda apart from any real sincerity.

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Useless:

Heroes can be Heroes even if they aren't fighting the devil.</font>

What you politically correct, nonsensical lefties will never understand is that just because a group is portrayed as a villain does not mean it is secretely meant to be inclusive of all that group or that it is even accidentally portrayed in that manner at all. I guess by some warped idea of semiotics you think it's actually going to have an effect on peoples' minds. Like I said once upon a time in this thread, sensible Americans will know the difference. Those who do not are of the LCD of which it makes little to no difference. And it's not the job of the film makers to tip toe around their portrayal in hopes of appeasing the likes of the PC police.

It does compromise the perspective of the film if you try and characterize an enemy that, through the eyes of the soliders (the perspective of the film), were there to do only one thing--kill them. It is unfortunate that the Somalians were not characterized or 'humanized' a bit more, but it wasn't one of the goals of the film. Art should not be compromised in hopes of catering to the 'feelings' of the LCD.

It's amazing. Back in the day it took years for Conrad's work to recieve this kind of reflective 'criticism'. Today we live in a politically correct climate where it is trounced upon even before the film is actually seen.

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Useless:
I disagreed with him too, quote the rest of it, it will be fun.

</font>

Nah, you just signed yourself away into what is basically useless troll territory. Of the accidental variety, nonetheless. The worst kind...

Unless
01-28-2002, 01:27 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
trounced upon, before its seen?
</font>

I originally was going to post in retaliation to your comments, and tell you why I disagreed all over again, but we've been repeating the same things over and over. I'm dropping it because it turned into a fight, which wasn't my intention but of course, given the subject, the typical insults start flying. I'm all worked up over it and its not worth the wasted energy. I guarantee it would have gone different face to face. So judgemental, and you don't know anything about me.

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

tweedyburd
01-28-2002, 01:35 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Unless:
So judgemental, and you don't know anything about me.

</font>

This is a message board. You get your point across through the written word. I judged your position by what you wrote. What else am I supposed to get over a message board, the essence of your soul or something?

BeautifulLoser
01-28-2002, 01:40 PM
Yes, Unless, you do amuse me... it amuses me that someone can be so extremely liberal and blind that they can take a story and movie about a real life situation and turn it into a racism issue. The Rangers that participated in the firefight were interviewed several times, and each time they said that the movie was basically historically acurate, with the exception of a few of the character's personalities. So they didn't show the "Somali War Lord Point Of View." If you ask me, this made the warlord characters look better, because if they showed the way those people really were (i.e. dragging the bodies of US SOLDIERS through the streets of Mogadishu), people would have been screaming racism for making them look so bad.

I hate extreme liberals almost as much as I hate those extreme right wing Christian fux0rs. They're both full of bullshit, just on different ends of the spectrum.

Unless
01-28-2002, 01:40 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
This is a message board. You get your point across through the written word. I judged your position by what you wrote. What else am I supposed to get over a message board, the essence of your soul or something?
</font>

climb off your pedestal, if you acted the same way on the street you did in here than you wouldn't recognize the good in anything. I don't expect you to get enough from my words to judge my worth, but you do. I think maybe if i met you face to face you might be pretty decent, but thats not what your words tell me.


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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

Unless
01-28-2002, 01:51 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by tweedyburd:
This is a message board. You get your point across through the written word. I judged your position by what you wrote. What else am I supposed to get over a message board, the essence of your soul or something?
</font>

climb off your pedestal, if you acted the same way on the street you did in here than you wouldn't recognize the good in anything. I don't expect you to get enough from my words to judge my worth, but you do. I think maybe if i met you face to face you might be pretty decent, but thats not what your words tell me.


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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

tweedyburd
01-28-2002, 01:54 PM
http://www.seegod.org/images/businessman%20hanging%20himself%202.jpg

sickbadthing
01-28-2002, 01:55 PM
Please get it over with and admit that you both want to fuck each other.

This thread sucks so bad. You guys need your own forum to profess your love to one another. Kiss and give each other hand jobs and let the thread die.

tweedyburd
01-28-2002, 01:58 PM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by sickbadthing:
let the thread die.</font>

EIvis The Dead Years
02-01-2002, 02:55 AM
Hi! I just want to say that I saw this movie tonight and it was really good I felt. Thanks!

scouse_dave
02-01-2002, 02:58 AM
FYI: i haven't seen it yet

MisterSquishyHalo
02-01-2002, 03:04 AM
I thought someone said to let it die!

heh

EIvis The Dead Years
02-01-2002, 03:06 AM
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by MisterSquishyHalo:
I thought someone said to let it die!

heh</font>

Well it would have been dumb to make my own thread talking about Black Hawk Down when there is already a thread that is actually called "Black Hawk Down".

Mr. Rhinoceros
02-01-2002, 06:50 AM
<font color=#007AAA>I just thought I'd be annoying and bump this again.

And just in case Unless reads this, shut your yap. I haven't seen someone make the left look so bad since Jimmy Carter was president. Christ.

P.S. Tweedy, you rock.

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We don't find truth, we create (http://www.livejournal.com/~mrrhinoceros) it.