View Full Version : Another Zeitgeist review (mine)


Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 02:22 PM
I was absolutely amazed when I saw the Pumpkins in Paris, I loved every minute of it, but somehow I wasn't too impressed with the new songs. I thought Bleeding the Orchid had potential and I absolutely loved Gossamer. I thought Tarantula was an okay song, but for the Pumpkins a rather mediocre single. After hearing the whole album nothing much has changed.

The reasons I fell in love with the pumpkins (rather late by the way) were their unusual song structures, the quiet/loud dynamics, the emotional vocals and the interesting guitar work. Songs like Soma, Porcelina, Hummer, Ruby,Mayo or Starla. What we've got here, however, is a pretty straight forward rock record that without a doubt does rock hard, but in most parts lacks the above characteristics. Sure, United States is the trademark epic song, but you know what? I don't even think it's better than Mary Star of the Sea. I'm sure many will love US, but for my part I can finally say that I can do without the epic song in the future if that's all they got. I'd rather have two shorter songs then.
When I played SP for my friends some liked it and some didn't, but everyone agreed that they sounded different. What I'm asking myself now is this: Do I need the Pumpkins when all they do is just play some predictable rock tunes? Where's the magic? What are they really contributing to modern music nowadays?

A few words about the songs: Doomsday Clock sounds excellent on record. Everybody who heard the short clip will know what I'm talking about.
I don't like 7 Shades of Black, so I won't waste time on that one.
Bleeding the Orchid really is awesome, definitely the song I will listen to the most. Holds everything the live version promised.
That's the Way is pretty nice, but well....the whole album is pretty nice, you know? Just not great.
Starz sounded very promising live and I was hoping the album version would be harder....instead it seems a bit softer and more produced.
Neverlost sounds cool, far better than live.
Bring the Light is a fucking glam rock joke with some Queen guitars.
(Come On) Let's Go is basically Zwan with Pumpkins guitars.
For God and Country sounds completely different on record, it does in fact sound a little Cure-ish as someone pointed out earlier.
Pomp and Circumstance is a quiet, sweet little lullaby, but if you're expecting some kind of Luna II - No!

Don't get me wrong, Zeitgeist isn't a bad record...but the pumpkins are not fucking U2 (thank god) or whatever and may have raised the bar too high with SD and MCIS for themselves and their fanbase. These songs are simply not great in pumpkins terms. Possilby good enough for TAFH. I was very skeptical after I saw the artwork and after hearing the single, but I tried to stay optimictic. What I'm left with now is a decent record that some of you will like better than Machina, some better than Adore and some better than Gish, but for me it's not. Standout tracks such as Bleeding the Orchid or Tarantula just can't compare to their counterparts on the other albums. It's still a lot better than MSOTS and TFE (although Mina Loy would have been one of the better Zeitgeist tracks IMO).

One more thing: I often dislike albums on the first couple of listens, so this could grow on me and make me change my mind. I will probably post again on Bring the Light and Come On, cause I probably do them injustice. However, I feel it is somewhat dissapointing if you look at all the time they had for recording this album. I wish I could go to all my friends who told me Corgan is a has-been and hasn't recorded great music since Adore, but I'm afraid Zeitgeist alone won't win many arguments for me.
I do understand the Filter review now. All of a sudden it is rather clear why it's neither enthusiastic nor negative.

zebramask
05-31-2007, 02:25 PM
But Glam Rock Is Serious Business.

SpFission
05-31-2007, 02:25 PM
Bummer, I bet it's way better than Machina though.

Spaceboy88
05-31-2007, 02:27 PM
Leak or you don't have it.

threetwooneZERO
05-31-2007, 02:28 PM
so how can you listen to it over and over again??

Deadeyes
05-31-2007, 02:29 PM
Jesus, how many people have this now? where is the leak

And if you have reviewed this after one listen then that's not really fair.

thagor
05-31-2007, 02:29 PM
Thanks for the review. I can't wait till I buy it myself so I can make my own mind up.

TumoraXsault
05-31-2007, 02:31 PM
are you allowed to give out the source?

wHATcOLOR
05-31-2007, 02:32 PM
cool man thanks for the review

Fattening Ass
05-31-2007, 02:33 PM
gib album

SpFission
05-31-2007, 02:34 PM
If it's as good as some of the TAFH stuff, then thats ok with me...

pumpkins
05-31-2007, 02:36 PM
You didn't explained how the hell you got the album... Explain and then leak. Or leak it anyway. Come on man, you know you want! We'll still be buying the album, promise.

million_watts
05-31-2007, 02:42 PM
thx for sharing

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 02:42 PM
I don't wanna talk about how I got it, but some older members can confirm my credibility. They also know that I'm not in the position to leak it.

SpFission
05-31-2007, 02:43 PM
I don't wanna talk about how I got it, but some older members can confirm my credibility. They also know that I'm not in the position to leak it.

Where would you rate it out of all the SP albums?

wHATcOLOR
05-31-2007, 02:49 PM
I don't wanna talk about how I got it, but some older members can confirm my credibility. They also know that I'm not in the position to leak it.


confirmed

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 02:52 PM
Where would you rate it out of all the SP albums?

I think I answered that with my post. I'm a big fan of Adore and I do like Machina, so Zeitgeist may be my least favourite.

I feel kinda bad after this review, though...so i think i need to say this: Zeitgeist is still a fucking Smashing Pumpkins record and it is absolutely awesome to hear billy's voice on record again. Also it is probably better than most shit nowadays. By far. I guess I was just one of those who secretly wanted Siamese Dream 2 but couldn't admit it. It won't be groundbreaking or record of the year or anything, but IT IS A COOL RECORD AND I LOVE BLEEDING THE ORCHID.

Ghost Children
05-31-2007, 02:52 PM
Nice review.

These songs are simply not great in pumpkins terms. Possilby good enough for TAFH.

Ouch.

standing
05-31-2007, 02:53 PM
I'm feelin ya'll about the magic not bein there. But somethig to keep in mind: I big part of how magical an album is, has to do with YOU- not the album itself. Think about how old you were when you listened to siamese dream. You think you still operate on the same brain chemistry as you did then? You think you still believe in the same battles? Also, think about what you were doin when you listened to siamese dream and mellon collie. Probably in high school; so your fun was cutting school or doin some softcore drugs or something. What are you doing now? Working atleast 5 days a week? Some of you raising a kid or 2. So maybe to the 15yrolds cutting class, Zeitgeist will be that insane album. I was a late fan. The first time I heard siamese dream, I was not that psyched. I would only skip through it listening to disarm and spaceboy over and over. (Though the rest of the album grew on me VERY quickly). However, adore was my first new release as a pumpkins fan. That one BLEW ME AWAY (though it lost a lot of other fans). So, it's all relative. We should just give Zeitgeist a chance and see what works for us personally. For some of us, this record will not make it into the canon, and we will have to accept that sp is long dead, and corgan's non-stop struggle to be the king of high school is not a struggle we want to observe any longer. I do hope thios album is good though. :)

SpFission
05-31-2007, 02:58 PM
I think I answered that with my post. I'm a big fan of Adore and I do like Machina, so Zeitgeist may be my least favourite.

I feel kinda bad after this review, though...so i think i need to say this: Zeitgeist is still a fucking Smashing Pumpkins record and it is absolutely awesome to hear billy's voice on record again. Also it is probably better than most shit nowadays. By far. I guess I was just one of those who secretly wanted Siamese Dream 2 but couldn't admit it. It won't be groundbreaking or record of the year or anything, but IT IS A COOL RECORD AND I LOVE BLEEDING THE ORCHID.

Thx for the review.. Machina is by far my least favorite record, so I'm still excieted for Zeitgeist.

wHATcOLOR
05-31-2007, 03:00 PM
think about what you were doin when you listened to siamese dream and mellon collie. Probably in high school; so your fun was cutting school or doin some softcore drugs or something. What are you doing now?


hard ones

mcallima
05-31-2007, 03:02 PM
For people who say the magic isn't there, yea you're right. But you need to keep in mind this isn't 1994 and Billy isn't really relative anymore. Zeitgeist was never going to be as influential as SD, epic as MCIS, or beautiful as Adore, and it's futile to expect that. The only thing we can hope for is songs that don't suck.

DeviousJ
05-31-2007, 03:02 PM
I LOVE BLEEDING THE ORCHID.

Hehehe

andrewface
05-31-2007, 03:05 PM
i think we need to look at this record in zeitgeist
stop comparing it to mcis and SD and start comparing it to the times
will this record save us from three days grace, hinder and nickleback
is rock n roll dead? or can this record pump a little bit of energy that it needs to keep going

neopryn
05-31-2007, 03:05 PM
For people who say the magic isn't there, yea you're right. But you need to keep in mind this isn't 1994 and Billy isn't really relative anymore. Zeitgeist was never going to be as influential as SD, epic as MCIS, or beautiful as Adore, and it's futile to expect that. The only thing we can hope for is songs that don't suck.
what's the fucking point of listening to the album if your highest hope is "songs that don't suck"

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 03:05 PM
I agree with Standing. It has definitely to do with me growing older (and billy growing older too). And I also want everyone to be excited and still be looking forward. If we get Bleeding the Orchid and whatever songs you like the most plus a few good B-Sides then it's all good. I'm still completely excited to see them again in Berlin next week.

andrewface
05-31-2007, 03:06 PM
For people who say the magic isn't there, yea you're right. But you need to keep in mind this isn't 1994 and Billy isn't really relative anymore. Zeitgeist was never going to be as influential as SD, epic as MCIS, or beautiful as Adore, and it's futile to expect that. The only thing we can hope for is songs that don't suck.

and we've heard them...they dont suck

neopryn
05-31-2007, 03:06 PM
I don't wanna talk about how I got it, but some older members can confirm my credibility. They also know that I'm not in the position to leak it.double confirmed

this review is pretty much what i expected after hearing just 2 of the new songs. ah well.

Deadeyes
05-31-2007, 03:08 PM
How many times have you listened to the album Phoenix Down?

mcallima
05-31-2007, 03:14 PM
what's the fucking point of listening to the album if your highest hope is "songs that don't suck"

I don't know about you, but I listen to a lot of music. I don't LOVE every song in my playlist. I'm not expecting to like Zeitgeist as much as I liked Gish, SD, MCIS and Adore. If I did, I would just be disappointed. I'm just hoping for songs I can listen to more than once and still like them, unlike TFE and album era Zwan.

The simple, ugly truth is this: Billy isn't talented enough to top his past efforts, that's the best it's ever going to get. I just want him to top his worst efforts.

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 03:16 PM
twice. If anyone cares - I will probably drunk-post later this night after like ten more listens saying how much I love it.
:rofl: :erm: :bananamac

@mcallima: he easily topped his worst efforts with zeitgeist. in a good way i mean.

pumpkins
05-31-2007, 03:21 PM
let us all listen to it dude! Come on... Leak at least one single song.... :) Come on.

neopryn
05-31-2007, 03:22 PM
I don't know about you, but I listen to a lot of music. I don't LOVE every song in my playlist. I'm not expecting to like Zeitgeist as much as I liked Gish, SD, MCIS and Adore. If I did, I would just be disappointed. I'm just hoping for songs I can listen to more than once and still like them, unlike TFE and album era Zwan.

The simple, ugly truth is this: Billy isn't talented enough to top his past efforts, that's the best it's ever going to get. I just want him to top his worst efforts.Agreed. Your previous post gave off the "It's Pumpkins so it's still better than anything else" vibe, which is all too prevalent around here.

commando
05-31-2007, 03:22 PM
...and album era Zwan.

I'm glad you qualified this... has anyone else besides me listened to the Emerson bootlegs more than the actual album?

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 03:25 PM
Bullshit.

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 03:27 PM
I don't believe you Phoenix. Why don't you show us a picture of the actual cd? Otherwise, it's fucking bullshit.

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 03:28 PM
Oh wait, yeah, right... You don't own a digital camera. Yeah... Oh yeah I see. You can't do that because the RIAA will come after you. Oh yeah I know. Oh wait.. what's that? You will lose your job... Oh ok... I understand...

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T

hnibos
05-31-2007, 03:29 PM
lol

Deadeyes
05-31-2007, 03:32 PM
twice. If anyone cares - I will probably drunk-post later this night after like ten more listens saying how much I love it.
:rofl: :erm: :bananamac

@mcallima: he easily topped his worst efforts with zeitgeist. in a good way i mean.

Okay thanks. I do think you have reviewed it a bit early in that case. That's what I hate about most press reviews. But none the less I understand some of where you are coming from, but I don't share your perspective (well judging from Paris boot that is). To me Tarantula is the weakest song I have heard so far, and I still think it's okay.

Cool As Ice Cream
05-31-2007, 03:36 PM
let us all listen to it dude! Come on... Leak at least one single song.... :) Come on.
don't be silly.

million_watts
05-31-2007, 03:37 PM
also not sharing perspective cause of machina love and TAFH disappreciation :p

andrewface
05-31-2007, 03:40 PM
what kinda of a review is that anyway

tarantula - kinda punky
7 shades - dont like it so ill skip it
track 9 - sounds like zwan
track 10 - sounds like zwan
track 3 - not good as old pumpkins

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 03:43 PM
what kinda of a review is that anyway

tarantula - kinda punky
7 shades - dont like it so ill skip it
track 9 - sounds like zwan
track 10 - sounds like zwan
track 3 - not good as old pumpkins

Hahahahaha.

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 03:50 PM
also not sharing perspective cause of machina love and TAFH disappreciation :p

hehe, i love TAFH. it's what got me into SP.

@andrew: I didn't feel like writing about the songs too much, cause there are already enough reviews examining the single tracks.. I thought my overall perspective as a hardcore fan would be more interesting in this case.

theghostchild
05-31-2007, 03:50 PM
I'm feelin ya'll about the magic not bein there. But somethig to keep in mind: I big part of how magical an album is, has to do with YOU- not the album itself. Think about how old you were when you listened to siamese dream. You think you still operate on the same brain chemistry as you did then? You think you still believe in the same battles? Also, think about what you were doin when you listened to siamese dream and mellon collie. Probably in high school; so your fun was cutting school or doin some softcore drugs or something. What are you doing now? Working atleast 5 days a week? Some of you raising a kid or 2. So maybe to the 15yrolds cutting class, Zeitgeist will be that insane album. I was a late fan. The first time I heard siamese dream, I was not that psyched. I would only skip through it listening to disarm and spaceboy over and over. (Though the rest of the album grew on me VERY quickly). However, adore was my first new release as a pumpkins fan. That one BLEW ME AWAY (though it lost a lot of other fans). So, it's all relative. We should just give Zeitgeist a chance and see what works for us personally. For some of us, this record will not make it into the canon, and we will have to accept that sp is long dead, and corgan's non-stop struggle to be the king of high school is not a struggle we want to observe any longer. I do hope thios album is good though. :)

Very Well Put...the frame of mind during the 13-18 year old version of myself, listening to Gish, SD and MCIS is much different than the 29 year old version of myself, working 8-5, M-F, relatively simple life...but Zeitgeist could be the album that marks my 29th year....and without a doubt, it will....

andrewface
05-31-2007, 03:56 PM
hehe, i love TAFH. it's what got me into SP.

@andrew: I didn't feel like writing about the songs too much, cause there are already enough reviews examining the single tracks.. I thought my overall perspective as a hardcore fan would be more interesting in this case.

zeitgeist is an album....a piece of work that has nothing to do with siamese dream...a review comparing zeitgeist to older works is not a review its a comparison.

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 03:59 PM
zeitgeist is an album....a piece of work that has nothing to do with siamese dream...a review comparing zeitgeist to older works is not a review its a comparison.

An artist whose goal is progression has to be reviewed by referencing his past works.

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 04:01 PM
So Phoenix, when are we going to get a pic of the CD?

medellia
05-31-2007, 04:02 PM
zeitgeist is an album....a piece of work that has nothing to do with siamese dream...a review comparing zeitgeist to older works is not a review its a comparison.

almost every single review will situate the album in its historical context, shithead. even the album title is a veiled, tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment of this. (remember the one band who heard a few of the tracks and remarked they had 'the sensibility of MCIS with the intelligence of Machina' ? it's a dumb comment, but fairly standard. get used to it.)

Cool As Ice Cream
05-31-2007, 04:02 PM
So Phoenix, when are we going to get a pic of the CD?
why would you need that?

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 04:05 PM
There are people on here who'd call me an idiot if I'd actually give in and make the effort to prove something they already know, just because some Oblivious Virgin named FlamingCucumber is being a smartass.

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 04:05 PM
why would you need that?

I'm just making fun of Phoenix. That person doenst have a copy of Zeitgeist.

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 04:07 PM
There are people on here who'd call me an idiot if I'd actually give in and make the effort to prove something they already know, just because some Oblivious Virgin named FlamingCucumber is a smart ass.

Yeah, right. There are also people here who'd call you an idiot for bullshitting on a board because you're an attention whore.

Deadeyes
05-31-2007, 04:09 PM
An artist whose goal is progression has to be reviewed by referencing his past works.

This is where our perceptions part ways. I don't compare any Pumpkins album to another. Very few bands can do that, ones that have all solid work which is similar or ones that have all solid work which is creatively different. There is a general feeling behind Pumpkins work that can be compared, but I think you haven't found the depth behind these songs yet. I hear it in everything but Tarantula; Tarantula is an oddity to the Pumpkins in my opinion. Reason being it is condensed, and there seems to be no real feeling or goal with the song at all. It feels, *deep breath* ......fake. But maybe I just can't get into the context of it; i'll see when I have the lyrics.

Cool As Ice Cream
05-31-2007, 04:09 PM
I'm just making fun of Phoenix. That person doenst have a copy of Zeitgeist.worst troll ever. of course he has zeitgeist.

wHATcOLOR
05-31-2007, 04:10 PM
wah wah wah


what is your deal man? why are you so vehemently opposed to the idea that this is a real review of someone who's heard the cd?

he's proved himself in the past, and i have no doubt whatsoever that he's heard the cd.

what are you so fired up about, it's not like his review has insulted your ancestors

stephen_bayne
05-31-2007, 04:12 PM
This review sounds fair enough. I don't expect this to measure up to Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie because Bill's doesn't have that hunger anymore but what I am expecting is Billy playing to his strengths again which it sounds like he is.

Hurry up with that drunken review! That's going to be gold.

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 04:12 PM
what is your deal man? why are you so vehemently opposed to the idea that this is a real review of someone who's heard the cd?

he's proved himself in the past, and i have no doubt whatsoever that he's heard the cd.

what are you so fired up about, it's not like his review has insulted your ancestors

Hey give me a break man. I'm a troll. This kind of thread is obviously something I'm interested in. On the other hand, don't you think Zeitgeist would have leaked long before someone actually took the time to write a review of it on this board?

monkeyfritters
05-31-2007, 04:13 PM
what is your deal man? why are you so vehemently opposed to the idea that this is a real review of someone who's heard the cd?

he's proved himself in the past, and i have no doubt whatsoever that he's heard the cd.

what are you so fired up about, it's not like his review has insulted your ancestors

i resent that, whatcolor.

Anvil Hands
05-31-2007, 04:13 PM
Yeah he's got the cd.

my question is the vocals, how do the vocals sound?

is it all like the tarantula vocals ?

Cool As Ice Cream
05-31-2007, 04:15 PM
i heard there's a lot of vocal layering. how do you call it, harmonics? tarantula has it too, if you would be looking for an example.

can you confirm this, phoenix?

AlphaCentauri
05-31-2007, 04:15 PM
Hey give me a break man. I'm a troll. This kind of thread is obviously something I'm interested in. On the other hand, don't you think Zeitgeist would have leaked long before someone actually took the time to write a review of it on this board?


weren't you kissing ass and being "WOA PUMPKINS!" like 2 days ago. Now you are trying to be all "I'm a jackass and it's funny". Go die already.

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 04:17 PM
weren't you kissing ass and being "WOA PUMPKINS!" like 2 days ago. Now you are trying to be all "I'm a jackass and it's funny". Go die already.

What are you talking about? I started being a jackass as soon as I realized that people here are all depressed 30-somethings.

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 04:19 PM
This is where our perceptions part ways. I don't compare any Pumpkins album to another. Very few bands can do that, ones that have all solid work which is similair or ones that have all solid work which is creatively different. There is a general feeling behind Pumpkins work that can be compared, but I think you haven't found the depth behind these songs yet. I hear it in everything but Tarantula, tarantula is an oddity to the Pumpkins in my oppinion. Reason being it is condensed, and there seems to be no real feeling or goal with the song at all. It feels, *deep breath* ......fake. But maybe I just can;t get into the context of it, i'll see when I have the lyrics.

*sigh* I was just saying this to have a point against andrew really. I agree and I wouldn't love Adore as much as I do if I were comparing it to MCIS and SD. However, Billy constantly talks about progression and going to unknown dangerous places rather than taking the easy path, so I think it is essential to talk about the musical journey when examining the pumpkins as a whole. As a fan I try to seperate them as good as I can, though and I hear what you say about tarantula being an oddity. When I got into the pumpkins during the MCIS era I had all this music to discover: gish, PI, MCIS, TAFH, SD so I wasn't fixated on one direction only. If this is just another incarnation of the pumpkins, let's say the straight forward, in your face, lies burning rockband then it's fine. I'm pretty sure Zeitgeist will fit in there somewhere and the next album will be completely different again.

monkeyfritters
05-31-2007, 04:19 PM
you just insulted my ancestors with that last remark, flamingcucumber.

wHATcOLOR
05-31-2007, 04:20 PM
Hey give me a break man. I'm a troll. This kind of thread is obviously something I'm interested in. On the other hand, don't you think Zeitgeist would have leaked long before someone actually took the time to write a review of it on this board?


((_)=========D ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

no, i don't think it would have leaked before someone from the board wrote a review, especially considering how things went with tfe and the way this album's been guarded

wHATcOLOR
05-31-2007, 04:20 PM
i resent that, whatcolor.


is flamingcucumber your ancestor?

Elvis The Fat Years
05-31-2007, 04:31 PM
i didn't even know cucumbers could be gay.

Cherub Angel
05-31-2007, 04:33 PM
excuse me! I like glam rock and Queen guitars! So I'm going to assume that I'll love "Bring the Light".

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 04:34 PM
i didn't even know cucumbers could be gay.

What's wrong with being gay?

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 04:35 PM
i didn't even know cucumbers could be gay.

I just realized your mouth is asking for cock.

Elvis The Fat Years
05-31-2007, 04:36 PM
What's wrong with being gay?

nothing. i just didn't know it was possible for a cucumber to love another cucumber in that way.

Elvis The Fat Years
05-31-2007, 04:38 PM
I just realized your mouth is asking for cock.

now you're just being rude, and i don't appreciate your foul language.

Deadeyes
05-31-2007, 04:38 PM
*sigh* I was just saying this to have a point against andrew really. I agree and I wouldn't love Adore as much as I do if I were comparing it to MCIS and SD. However, Billy constantly talks about progression and going to unknown dangerous places rather than taking the easy path, so I think it is essential to talk about the musical journey when examining the pumpkins as a whole. As a fan I try to seperate them as good as I can, though and I hear what you say about tarantula being an oddity. When I got into the pumpkins during the MCIS era I had all this music to discover: gish, PI, MCIS, TAFH, SD so I wasn't fixated on one direction only. If this is just another incarnation of the pumpkins, let's say the straight forward, in your face, lies burning rockband then it's fine. I'm pretty sure Zeitgeist will fit in there somewhere and the next album will be completely different again.

I think Billy knows that music without feeling is not Pumpkins. In fact that's what really ties Pumpkins together, the undercurrent so to speak. No matter how far he progresses/diversifies sound wise, if the feeling isn't there, it just won't be the Pumpkins. I think there is feeling here, but a new era of feeling. Just like gish/sd/mcis/adore/machina all have individualities in sound and context and the picture they paint I hope Zeitgeist as an album will to. From what I have heard of these songs, I think it's there, most notable in Gossamer, that song captures an era, a new era. Perhaps in that sense you are not picking it up from this album, or maybe you just haven't had enough time to. From my perspective, im seeing it as it unfolds, and Im liking how it has started.

Shapan
05-31-2007, 04:40 PM
I'm not expecting to like Zeitgeist as much as I liked Gish, SD, MCIS and Adore. If I did, I would just be disappointed.

what

this is kinda just setting them up for failure. i mean, my expectations aren't too high either, but i havent sold billy so short just yet. if the record is great, id be pleasantly surprised and very happy. i do think billy can make a good record again, as long as he ditches his pretentiousness.

hereisnowhy
05-31-2007, 04:46 PM
Hey give me a break man. I'm a troll.

:rofl:

Thanks for the review Phoenix.

redbull
05-31-2007, 04:53 PM
i think we need to look at this record in zeitgeist
stop comparing it to mcis and SD and start comparing it to the times
will this record save us from three days grace, hinder and nickleback
is rock n roll dead? or can this record pump a little bit of energy that it needs to keep going
you're an idiot

Shapan
05-31-2007, 04:55 PM
those are obviously the three best bands in the industry though

Gossamer
05-31-2007, 04:56 PM
Everyone should take these reviews with a grain of salt.

For example, Phoenixdown doesn't even like 7 Shades of Black, when to me, just from hearing it live, that song rivals any of the best songs off MCIS and Adore.


Thanks for the review anyway, but people should not be already forming their opinions on an album, before they hear it, especially from a guy that's only listened to it twice...

1100ww
05-31-2007, 05:01 PM
thanks for the review, phoenix. the good points + bad points are pretty much what i would have feared/expected

monkeyfritters
05-31-2007, 05:04 PM
is flamingcucumber your ancestor?
((_)=========D ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

theeggofhope
05-31-2007, 05:09 PM
Don't get me wrong, Zeitgeist isn't a bad record...but the pumpkins are not fucking U2 (thank god) or whatever and may have raised the bar too high with SD and MCIS for themselves and their fanbase. These songs are simply not great in pumpkins terms. Possilby good enough for TAFH.

its funny to me how many people on this board hate U2...
I remember Strawz posting about Billy and Bono meeting and talking about music in europe during TFE tour and during U2's last Tour...
talk about wanting to be a fly on the wall...
I'd love to get to listen to those 2 talk about music..
then again I love U2 and i love the smashing pumpkins/zwan/billy and jimmy's solo stuff...
I always wondered what billy might have taken away from this meeting...

and in my opinion a lot of the songs from TAFH are better then some of the songs that made it onto MCIS, TAFH was an amazing boxset and showed the ammount of great music the pumpkins wrote and recorded in the MCIS-era...
so....

?

Martyr
05-31-2007, 05:21 PM
U2 live is something to see.

Shapan
05-31-2007, 05:24 PM
good enough to be on TAFH would be above my expectations.

though ive enjoyed the new material thus far.

Rockin' Cherub
05-31-2007, 05:27 PM
that review probably reflects what i'll be feeling after the first listen

wHATcOLOR
05-31-2007, 05:28 PM
hey Phoenix, would you say that Jimmy's drumming is creative, or is it pretty straigtforward? i know that straightforward jim drums are still awesome, but.. they seemed most poignant on gish, sd, and mcis

Karl Connor
05-31-2007, 05:34 PM
For people who say the magic isn't there, yea you're right. But you need to keep in mind this isn't 1994 and Billy isn't really relative anymore.

lol

Rockin' Cherub
05-31-2007, 05:34 PM
personally i preferred them on adore

theeggofhope
05-31-2007, 06:20 PM
U2 live is something to see.

hell yeah...they still put on the best shows...

paranoid
05-31-2007, 06:23 PM
Phoenix-- reading this review, i get the impression that you are dissapointed that this record is not gish, or SD, or MCIS, etc etc. The responses such as the ones you gave for that's the way, bring the light, etc etc, and then "sounds like zwan with pumpkins guitars," "pretty song, but it's no Luna," kinda show that you were listening to this record with the kind of expectation you hold in the songs that you grew into and learned to love over the years.. yeah people will always compare to past works, and it is appropriate on some levels, but it seems like all of your dissapointments stem from these comparisons. This review sounds to me like a typical, hard core fan first listen reaction.

What I'm getting at is what is your reaction to zeitgeist as an album, how does it work how does it flow, more detailed descriptions of the tunes would be nice, how's the production, the vocals, the drumming, the guitar playing, any keys/piano? string arrangements? things you weren't expecting? The past work comparison run down is useless and annoying because, well, IT'S EXPECTED THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO AUTOMATICALLY LIKE THIS RECORD COMPARED TO RECORDS WE HAVE BEEN LOVING FOR 5-10 YEARS NOW.

If you were able to grow to love Machina, i'm pretty damn sure you'll grow to love this record.. but i haven't heard it ye so i really can't preach that.. but the songs i've heard so far (live).. I know i'll like them over some time.

AlphaCentauri
05-31-2007, 06:30 PM
What are you talking about? I started being a jackass as soon as I realized that people here are all depressed 30-somethings.

if you were true, you would have been a jackass from the moment you got here.

who smells a ban here? I do I do!!!

wHATcOLOR
05-31-2007, 06:34 PM
Phoenix-- reading this review, i get the impression that you are dissapointed that this record is not gish, or SD, or MCIS, etc etc.


i can't speak for him, but i can say that i didn't get this impression. one of the most frequently used knee-jerk responses to someone saying something negative regarding new bill music is "you just want siamese dream II", etc.

but i think that's not really fair. i think what people are referring to is how creative, heartfelt, and different (from the previous pumpkins record at the time, as well as from other music released around the same time) SD and MCIS were. i think when something doesn't match up, it's not because it doesn't sound exactly like those albums, but because it lacks those elements i just mentioned

oh, and quality as well. e.g. the creativity in songwriting of old compared to laziness and repetitiveness of late, etc.

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 06:35 PM
@ paranoid: i understand...well, i promised a drunken post on it anyway, so i will consider that

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 06:36 PM
if you were true, you would have been a jackass from the moment you got here.

who smells a ban here? I do I do!!!

Why don't you directly ask the moderators to ban me instead of indirectly asking like a wimp?

bellis123
05-31-2007, 06:40 PM
hard ones

Aint that the truth

tyguy666
05-31-2007, 06:46 PM
you kinda dampened my spirits but i'm sure i'll still love it

thagor
05-31-2007, 06:46 PM
. However, I feel it is somewhat dissapointing if you look at all the time they had for recording this album. I wish I could go to all my friends who told me Corgan is a has-been and hasn't recorded great music since Adore, but I'm afraid Zeitgeist alone won't win many arguments for me.
I do understand the Filter review now. All of a sudden it is rather clear why it's neither enthusiastic nor negative.

So far, from what I've heard doomsday clock, Gossamer and USA are quite clear arguments of very good music. I am still waiting for Tarantula to grow on me. As with anything Billy does, I won't like it on the first listen, it's only after about the 20th time that things just click.

MisterSquishyHalo
05-31-2007, 07:06 PM
who smells a ban here? I do I do!!!

If thats ban worthy half of netphoria would be banned by now.

FlamingCucumber
05-31-2007, 07:14 PM
@ paranoid: i understand...well, i promised a drunken post on it anyway, so i will consider that

Reading your review, I wonder how anyone could do worse. So the fact that you're going to try drunk is a bit scary.

br191804
05-31-2007, 07:14 PM
[QUOTE=paranoid]Phoenix-- reading this review, i get the impression that you are dissapointed that this record is not gish, or SD, or MCIS, etc etc. The responses such as the ones you gave for that's the way, bring the light, etc etc, and then "sounds like zwan with pumpkins guitars," "pretty song, but it's no Luna," kinda show that you were listening to this record with the kind of expectation you hold in the songs that you grew into and learned to love over the years.. yeah people will always compare to past works, and it is appropriate on some levels, but it seems like all of your dissapointments stem from these comparisons. This review sounds to me like a typical, hard core fan first listen reaction.

What I'm getting at is what is your reaction to zeitgeist as an album, how does it work how does it flow, more detailed descriptions of the tunes would be nice, how's the production, the vocals, the drumming, the guitar playing, any keys/piano? string arrangements? things you weren't expecting? The past work comparison run down is useless and annoying because, well, IT'S EXPECTED THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO AUTOMATICALLY LIKE THIS RECORD COMPARED TO RECORDS WE HAVE BEEN LOVING FOR 5-10 YEARS NOW.

If you were able to grow to love Machina, i'm pretty damn sure you'll grow to love this record.. but i haven't heard it ye so i really can't preach that.. but the songs i've heard so far (live).. I know i'll like them over some time.[/QUOTEG

Good point people. Stop comparing and open up your minds a little. :noway:

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 07:45 PM
Reading your review, I wonder how anyone could do worse. So the fact that you're going to try drunk is a bit scary.

lol.

Virex Kills
05-31-2007, 07:59 PM
Thanks for pulling through Phoenix. :D

mcallima
05-31-2007, 08:15 PM
what

this is kinda just setting them up for failure. i mean, my expectations aren't too high either, but i havent sold billy so short just yet. if the record is great, id be pleasantly surprised and very happy. i do think billy can make a good record again, as long as he ditches his pretentiousness.

Two things to keep in mind:

1. Artists, even great ones, always peak. Are Roger Waters or David Gilmour churning out anything as good as Dark Side of the Moon? No. Are Page & Plant churning out anything as good as they did during their Zeppelin days? No.

2. Old school Pumpkins fans have an emotional connection to the old music. Even if the music is great (and I do think Gossamer is fantastic), we'll always prefer this music we grew up listening to.

I'm not selling Billy short, I'm just a realist.

paranoid
05-31-2007, 08:55 PM
i can't speak for him, but i can say that i didn't get this impression. one of the most frequently used knee-jerk responses to someone saying something negative regarding new bill music is "you just want siamese dream II", etc.

but i think that's not really fair. i think what people are referring to is how creative, heartfelt, and different (from the previous pumpkins record at the time, as well as from other music released around the same time) SD and MCIS were. i think when something doesn't match up, it's not because it doesn't sound exactly like those albums, but because it lacks those elements i just mentioned

oh, and quality as well. e.g. the creativity in songwriting of old compared to laziness and repetitiveness of late, etc.

I'm not reacting to this review because of negativity within the review, i'm dissapointed with the lack of insight.. such as "it's not luna!" That really doesn't give me an overall impression as to what that particular song is like or what the record is like at all.

Corgan Rules
05-31-2007, 08:55 PM
I don't know about you, but I listen to a lot of music. I don't LOVE every song in my playlist. I'm not expecting to like Zeitgeist as much as I liked Gish, SD, MCIS and Adore. If I did, I would just be disappointed. I'm just hoping for songs I can listen to more than once and still like them, unlike TFE and album era Zwan.

The simple, ugly truth is this: Billy isn't talented enough to top his past efforts, that's the best it's ever going to get. I just want him to top his worst efforts.

Isnt talented enough to top MCIS ??? You act like that is so easy to do. Most other musicians aren't talented enough to even come close to making that album. We should be praising Billy for his efforts on this new cd and stop focusing on the past. The past is done and like he told us, he is going in a new direction like he always does. Just be happy with him making music!!

Every single cd he has made has been good and I have enjoyed. Some of them are better than the others, but they are all good!

Billy doesn't get any of the respect he deserves, even from his so called fans.... Stop judging his music by comparing it to MCIS. Obviously Billy has tons of talent....if he didn't he wouldnt have made such great music in his career. The man is a hit maker and deserves some praise from his fans...

neopryn
05-31-2007, 08:57 PM
If he's a hit maker why hasn't he had a hit in the last 10 years.

byoung88
05-31-2007, 09:01 PM
is this leaked yet or what damnit

zebramask
05-31-2007, 09:03 PM
Billy doesn't get any of the respect he deserves,Sorta like Rodney Dangerfield?

mcallima
05-31-2007, 09:04 PM
Isnt talented enough to top MCIS ??? You act like that is so easy to do. Most other musicians aren't talented enough to even come close to making that album. We should be praising Billy for his efforts on this new cd and stop focusing on the past. The past is done and like he told us, he is going in a new direction like he always does. Just be happy with him making music!!

Every single cd he has made has been good and I have enjoyed. Some of them are better than the others, but they are all good!

Billy doesn't get any of the respect he deserves, even from his so called fans.... Stop judging his music by comparing it to MCIS. Obviously Billy has tons of talent....if he didn't he wouldnt have made such great music in his career. The man is a hit maker and deserves some praise from his fans...

I never said he wasn't talented. I just think he has peaked. He may continue to release good music, and I hope he does, but it will never have the same impact (for me at least) as his earlier work.

To put my comments in context, Roger Waters will never write a concept album better than The Wall. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not a hater, and I do like some of what I've heard of Zeitgeist. I just don't feel the same connection to it.

Corgan Rules
05-31-2007, 09:17 PM
If he's a hit maker why hasn't he had a hit in the last 10 years.


That's a bunch of BS buddy! He has made tons of great songs in the last 10 years and you know it. Where should I start.....LMGTWTY, Mary Star of the Sea, Honestly (not my favorite but it was a good song!), Mina Loy, Stand inside your love, Everlasting Gaze, I of the Mourning...cmon now! I am not necessarily talking about radio hits here....the man has made some very good music in his career and we should be praising him not giving this type of crappy attitude that you are others seem to give

Who are you to judge him like that? I don't think you have ever made a cd, so you cant talk!

mccririck
05-31-2007, 09:22 PM
SP never had a number 1 in the UK. Their highest charting single was Tonight Tonight which reached 6 or 7 I forget now. Disarm may have gone higher than it's 21 placing but it was banned by several radio stations here because of a child murder that was in the news at the time and the lyrics were a bit eerie.

Corgan Rules
05-31-2007, 09:23 PM
I never said he wasn't talented. I just think he has peaked. He may continue to release good music, and I hope he does, but it will never have the same impact (for me at least) as his earlier work.

To put my comments in context, Roger Waters will never write a concept album better than The Wall. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not a hater, and I do like some of what I've heard of Zeitgeist. I just don't feel the same connection to it.

Thats fine...I understand your point.

Everyone needs to understand that Billy doesnt make the same record twice. Yes he could have made 5 Siamese Dream cds like most other average artists out there, but thats not him. He goes in different directions and I really respect him for it. It is way more difficult on an artist to do this and since he has done this, he gets nothing but shit for making cds just because they dont sound like Siamese Dream or MCIS.. He is an innovator and that's the way innovators are and thats they way they think and work.

Yes he probably wont make another records as good as MCIS but even with that being the case, it isnt a let down for me. The man is now 40 years old and if you ask me, his music is still damn good for his age...

I am very excited to hear this album and Im sure his music wont let me down, because it hasn't yet so far...

Boseph
05-31-2007, 09:25 PM
Who are you to judge him like that? I don't think you have ever made a cd, so you cant talk!

I don't think you have ever made a cd either, so by that same logic you should shut the fuck up, too.

I mean, why is it alright to praise and idolize, yet not alright to critisize and pick-apart? It's just the other side of the spectrum, and it's just as valid as anything you have to say on the matter. If you don't need some kind of special credential (like "having made a cd") to say what you want...then why should anyone else?

mcallima
05-31-2007, 09:29 PM
Thats fine...I understand your point.

Everyone needs to understand that Billy doesnt make the same record twice. Yes he could have made 5 Siamese Dream cds like most other average artists out there, but thats not him. He goes in different directions and I really respect him for it. It is way more difficult on an artist to do this and since he has done this, he gets nothing but shit for making cds just because they dont sound like Siamese Dream or MCIS.. He is an innovator and that's the way innovators are and thats they way they think and work.

Yes he probably wont make another records as good as MCIS but even with that being the case, it isnt a let down for me. The man is now 40 years old and if you ask me, his music is still damn good for his age...

I am very excited to hear this album and Im sure his music wont let me down, because it hasn't yet so far...

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for new sounds, and I never said I wanted five SDs. I LOVE Adore, and it was a huge change in direction. Good music is good music, but a lot of what came after Adore simply wasn't good.

Phoenix Down
05-31-2007, 09:34 PM
Oh please don't turn my thread into some People vs. Corgan Rules discussion. I was already glad Esty stayed out of it so far.

Corgan Rules
05-31-2007, 09:34 PM
I don't think you have ever made a cd either, so by that same logic you should shut the fuck up, too.

I mean, why is it alright to praise and idolize, yet not alright to critisize and pick-apart? It's just the other side of the spectrum, and it's just as valid as anything you have to say on the matter.


I never did say that its ok to praise and not to criticize....its just that on this board, everyone is always negative. It's not right to be too hard on you favorite artist as well. It's not right to complain and say that every cd he makes, that isn't as good as MCIS, is crap too! It's like most people on here criticize him so much and they forget to praise him. That's not fair either... Billy has told all of us that he likes to keep moving on in different directions and his days of being on the top of the world are pretty much over. Hell, even if he would have only made one record, MCIS, he should still be praised for making such a damn amazing cd.

I agree I shouldn't have said that 1st comment about that person never making a cd..... but I just get so tired of seeing nothing but negativity on this board all the time. It gets old! Billy still is making good music these days and us fans should be excited to hear it and to enjoy it....

Boseph
05-31-2007, 09:37 PM
Oh please don't turn my thread into some People vs. Corgan Rules discussion. I was already glad Esty stayed out of it so far.

Alright, that's fair enough.

Corgan Rules
05-31-2007, 09:40 PM
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for new sounds, and I never said I wanted five SDs. I LOVE Adore, and it was a huge change in direction. Good music is good music, but a lot of what came after Adore simply wasn't good.

I see your point, but even though you didn't like most that came after Adore, you can't say it wasn't good music. He made plenty of good quality music since Adore.......Everlasting Gaze, Stabd Inside your love (one of Billy's best songs ever!), I of the Mourning, LMGTWTY, Saturnine (Greatest hits version), Vanity, Slow Dawn, Home (great song!), Mary Star of the Sea (I actually liked that cd), Mina Loy, etc. Hell, TFE was a damn good cd as well that got nothing but negative comments from the fans. Overall, it's still is a good cd that Billy made. I just listened to it the other day and I was really impressed once again...

I didn't mean that you wanted 5 Siamese Dream cds. It just seems like there are a lot of fans that made fun of Billy and said he sucks just because he tries to be progressive and move on. He tries to not remain stuck in the past and I really like that about him....

Corgan Rules
05-31-2007, 09:43 PM
Oh please don't turn my thread into some People vs. Corgan Rules discussion. I was already glad Esty stayed out of it so far.

Im not here to start trouble....just making some points. I don't have problems with fans that criticize Billy every now and then...that's normal. I just have problems with those that do nothing but criticize him. That to me is a bunch of bs.

enthusaroo
05-31-2007, 09:45 PM
Thanks for the honest review!

neopryn
05-31-2007, 09:53 PM
I am not necessarily talking about radio hits here That's the only way I've ever heard the term "hit" used. If you meant good songs you should have said just that.

Corgan Rules
05-31-2007, 10:01 PM
That's the only way I've ever heard the term "hit" used. If you meant good songs you should have said just that.

That's what I meant. I just meant that he has made some good music...

thurston
05-31-2007, 11:57 PM
everybody's gotta ruin everybody's fun...

Kahlo
06-01-2007, 01:22 AM
Phoenix I understand what you mean about Starz i didn't like at first it sounds erm, for want of a better word really cheesy..when my friend and I heard it we burst out laughing..

then heavy guitars come in. Its a good song, but probably the only so so song on the album. As an album however Zeitgeist is solid, just wait until you hear the multiple vocal layerings billy does..wow..i was really blown away!!

krackhead
06-01-2007, 01:32 AM
I don't believe you have it. Bullshit artist. Lets see some proof.