i was listening to Machina earlier today, and it struck me as odd that everyone hates the record.

was it because you were spoiled after hearing the Arising versions of the songs? or is it just the production? the bullshit story behind the record? what is it?

i have actually never listened to any of the boots from that Arising, so I have no idea how different they sound. i have heard the machina acoustic demos though. it is a fucking shame he didn't put One Less Moment/Lover on the release, cause that song is fucking DYING for hi-fidelity.

i remember when Everlasting Gaze leaked, and i thought it was fitting that he was using the electronic sounds gleamed from Adore with loud fucking cybermetal. IT EVEN HAD A BREAKDOWN, which made my roots in the hardcore scene happy.

just really, tell me why you hate the record so much. i'm curious. and if anyone has any mp3's that prove how you think the record SHOULD have sounded, i'd be more than happy to hear them.

i hate machina?

plus with every light sucks, wound and the crying tree of mercury.

you forgot to finish your sentence. what about wound and the crying tree of mercury?

how can you hate Wound? imploding voice, maybe... but Wound? REALLY? that song is fucking great.

also, Age of Innocense should have been a single.

it sucks for many reasons including production, length, song selection, etc. but i think what really doomed it was its connection to the end of the band which wasn't a bang but a fizzle and then some very public in-fighting.

someone name a show that's easily attained from the Arising tour, so i can go find it and listen to it. bonus points for being a soundboard recording. it is obvious now that i am simply a bad fan for not listening to these shows ever.

also, Age of Innocence should have been a single.


I agree.
I think AOI would of been a huge single.

What do you guys think of the production and the sound of the drums on machina 1? I for one love them

PRODUCTION

the drums are the closest jimmy has gotten the lars soundwise

My main gripes with Machina:

1) It doesn't sound very good. It's awash in fuzz and synths and it all blends together into a wall-of-mud. I honestly think the end of Heavy Metal Machine has one of Billy's coolest riffs, but it gets completely lost on the recording.

2) The songs are repetitive and lack dynamics. There are too many ABAB (you know, verse/chorus/verse/chorus x12) songs, like Raindrops + Sunshowers, Sacred + Profane, CTOM. It gets old by the end.

3) The songs lack genuine emotion. Since it's a "concept" where Billy assumes the character of Glass, most of the songs take on an affected tone.

The only song on the album that I think escapes all of these criticisms is Stand Inside Your Love, which is funny to me because didn't Billy say on Storytellers that this was the most "classic" sounding Pumpkins song on Machina?

the lars wow never would have thought that

I love Machina.

PRODUCTION

the drums are the closest jimmy has gotten the lars soundwise

nice

nice
fuck

fuck

shazaaam

woo-pah

over produced

What do you guys think of the production and the sound of the drums on machina 1? I for one love them

I downloaded an mp3 of the everlasting gaze when the album was just coming out, and it actually sounded better than the CD version somehow - at the very end you could hear every cymbal so cleanly, it was awesome. Not quite so much on the CD, and damn the production on the drums sucks on a lot of songs. The whole thing sounds like it was mixed for studio monitors

actually machina is in my top 3 albums. the only song i am not a huge fan of is TEG

over produced

pakula hates machina.

i dont. some weak songs for the aforementioned reasons, but i like it very much so.

hot girls think it sucks!!!

it sucks

great songs:
i of the mourning
age of innocence

good songs:
everlasting gaze
stand inside your love
blue skies bring tears

rest sucks

I really love Machina and have ever since I first heard it.

i love it too, i think its as good as anything they've ever done. the machina "saga", if you will, really drew me in like nothing else. i don't think you have to take the gatmog story at face value, its more about the general feeling of the album as a lament for the human condition, more than anything else. crying tree and blue skies grate on me a little but i think all the songs are great in their own right.

I love Machina. It is definitly flawed but there is nothing else like it in my entire cd collection and 75% of the songs are incredible.

I don't like it because there are only about 4-5 songs on it that I enjoy.

I love Machina. It is definitly flawed but there is nothing else like it in my entire cd collection and 75% of the songs are incredible.

I agree with this.

machina (I + II) are too epic to be ignored...it's a rock opera...

which brings me to another old question...what is anyone's preferred playlist for machina I + II with all the songs re-arranged to fit the storyline?

I've got mine...but still a few discrepancies i'm unsure of...

regardless of whether it sucks as an album or albums...it stands alone for it's sheer weight

I might even call the machina saga my favorite...in terms of overall depth

I HATE Try, Try, Try. The most pointless song ever. Heavy Metal Machine fails to live up to it's name. I don't know, the album just doesn't compare to previous efforts (or post for that matter). It's not very cohesive.

the problem with machina is that after listening to machinaII, you can't help but feel as though they released the wrong album


'i of the mourning' is a damn awesome track though

always loved TEG, but having recently heard 'disco king', i aint going back

"the problem with machina is that after listening to machinaII, you can't help but feel as though they released the wrong album"

wasn't that part of the intention?

well then let's give em three cheers for fucking around with us

Heavy Metal Machine fails to live up to it's name. I don't know, the album just doesn't compare to previous efforts (or post for that matter). It's not very cohesive.

machina version of 'heavy metal machine' is horrible compared to the other two versions on machinaII, and the other friends and enemies..

too many goofey noises in it. plus some of the songs have shitty riffs and melodies. i do like everlasting gays, glass/ghost, try, bsbt, and hmm.

i was listening to Machina earlier today, and it struck me as odd that everyone hates the record.

was it because you were spoiled after hearing the Arising versions of the songs? or is it just the production? the bullshit story behind the record? what is it?

i have actually never listened to any of the boots from that Arising, so I have no idea how different they sound. i have heard the machina acoustic demos though. it is a fucking shame he didn't put One Less Moment/Lover on the release, cause that song is fucking DYING for hi-fidelity.

i remember when Everlasting Gaze leaked, and i thought it was fitting that he was using the electronic sounds gleamed from Adore with loud fucking cybermetal. IT EVEN HAD A BREAKDOWN, which made my roots in the hardcore scene happy.

just really, tell me why you hate the record so much. i'm curious. and if anyone has any mp3's that prove how you think the record SHOULD have sounded, i'd be more than happy to hear them.

I didn't have time to read the rest of this thread but, my opinion is, most of the songs off of the Arising tour were way superior to their studio counterparts. Virex/Imploding Voice whatever whatever. I just wasn't expecting so much synth and over producing.

I think the production is the biggest thing for me. I would have like to have heard The Everlasting Gaze and Heavy Metal Machine recorded in the classic Pumpkin way with tons of overdubbing for a meatier sound. Other songs I would have preferred they be recorded as acoustic tracks like Glass and the Ghost Children and This Time. The only songs I think are fine the way they are are Stand Inside Your Love, I of the Mourning and Wound. Song choices is another thing that bugs me. I often wonder if Billy trying to screw with Virgin by releasing the bulk of good material from the Machina sessions on Machina II.

hot girls think it sucks!!!


:cry:

I wanted to be on this list too.

:cry:

i personally love how shitty the albums sound...blown out / washed out...comin' from a million miles away...it's like it's not quite there...

plus it reinforces the free aspects of machina II...like it is it's own eternal bootleg...

n/m

The production renders certain songs unlistenable (Imploding Voice, Heavy Metal Machine, Crying Tree of Mercury)

The entire thing is so fucking heavy handed. Seriously, does B0lly really expect people to enjoy sitting through Glass and the Ghost Children, or Blue Skies Bring Tears? Without those two songs alone + The Crying Tree of Mercury the album would be significantly better.

So damn long. I feel like I need a nap, if I haven't already fallen asleep during the thing.

Stand Inside Your Love is a classic of course. I also enjoy Age of Innocence, I of the Mourning, Raindrops+Sunshowers, The Sacred and Profane (i always forget how good that one is). They are epecially good live, without bullshit production.

Bottom line, Billy CANNOT (READ: CANNOT. SERIOUSLY, BILL) do atmosphere.

I think the atmosphere is just fine.

The only thing that I don't like about Machina is that some of the songs go on for much longer then they should.

I'm not ashamed to say that I love the production.

"Bottom line, Billy CANNOT (READ: CANNOT. SERIOUSLY, BILL) do atmosphere."

i agree with this...that's why he's a rocker

still love machina tho...the production kills

I liked Machina.

i still do

I listened to it today.
It's great.

James could do atmosphere in his sleep. :)

Machina suffers from several undeniable problems.

First and foremost, the production kills me. It is so overproduced it is grating to me at times.

Second of all, though I wouldn't call any of the tracks blatantly "bad", it has filler which we don't see in any other Pumpkins album.

Third of all, the whole Ziggy Stardust thing, as cool as it might have been in the 70s, absolutely did not work for a band who built all their songs up until that point on intensely personal human emotions that everyone can relate to. The fantasy bit, the social commentary in it, it just didn't work. No one really wanted to hear Billy sing about rock and roll and his own band. Yes, there are definately songs on Machina about the band itself.

Fourth of all, it is musically the most boxed in record. Corgan got stuck on the "sound" too much and it hurt the songs. Some of the songs are 5 and 6 minutes but they are the same thing over and over as opposed to earlier rockers like Geek USA which has 6 or 7 distinct parts.

Having said all this, it still has enough redeeming features to be a good album even if it does not quite meet the standards of the previous albums. It has more successes than it does downfalls. Some of the songs (SIYL, Age of Innocence, TEG, I of the Mourning) are abso-fucking-lutely magnificient. They are beautiful and soaring and grinding and hit all the things that make the Pumpkins great. Machina also achieves the standard Pumpkin goal of being totally different from everything else. Nothing sounds like it. It's shortcomings do not ruin it for me. There are a few "skip tracks" and others I'm not crazy about, but as a whole it is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

MSOTS is much worse.

can't say it better than that ^

i don't hate it, just don't listen to it all the way through. i like the first 4 tracks in a row.

love GTGC up until the talking - just fastforward through that part & listen to the end

I didn't think the songs had an Adore-level goodness

I thought the production was just horrible; flood should be ashamed

MSOTS is much worse.

Unfortunately, I agree with this.

i love i of the mourning, age of innocence and wound

but they're nothing compared to my favorite three songs on siamese dream, gish, or mcis: hummer/geek usa/soma; bury me, window paine, snail; here in no why, thru the eyes of ruby, bodies

i mean, seriously

nuff said, imo

just because it's their worst album doesn't mean it's bad.

does anyone want to make a list of the superior versions of each machina era song, like the show the best version was played at? or a playlist combining the best of the era or something?

turgid

HEY GUYS WHAT IF WE COMBINED BOTH MACHINAS INTO ONE ALBUM

I love Machina, and think the whole Machina thing is a wonderful experience. I have always been of the opinion that in order to properly appreciate an album, you must buy the CD, and this proves it. The art in the booklet goes perfectly with the music. The only tack on here I do not like is The Sacred and Profane.

HEY GUYS WHAT IF WE COMBINED BOTH MACHINAS INTO ONE ALBUM
answer: i would kill myself

does anyone want to make a list of the superior versions of each machina era song, like the show the best version was played at? or a playlist combining the best of the era or something?
yes

Everlasting Gays: 2000-11-29
Raindrops: 2000-05-03
Stand Inside Your Love: 2000-04-16
I Of The Mourning: 2000-05-24
Sacred and Profane: 2000-08-11
Try, Try, Try: 2000-02-19
Heavy Metal Machine: 2000-10-19
This Time: 2000-12-02
The Imploding Voice: 1999-04-10
Glass and the Ghost Children: 2000-05-23 or 2000-04-16
Wound: 1999-04-10
Mercury Tree: 1999-12-20
With Every Light: 2000-08-24
Blue Skies Bring Tears: 2000-05-23
Age Of Innocence: 2000-02-17

oo thx homes

jah welcome brah

yes

Everlasting Gays: 2000-11-29
Raindrops: 2000-05-03
Stand Inside Your Love: 2000-04-16
I Of The Mourning: 2000-05-24
Sacred and Profane: 2000-08-11
Try, Try, Try: 2000-02-19
Heavy Metal Machine: 2000-10-19
This Time: 2000-12-02
The Imploding Voice: 1999-04-10
Glass and the Ghost Children: 2000-05-23 or 2000-04-16
Wound: 1999-04-10
Mercury Tree: 1999-12-20
With Every Light: 2000-08-24
Blue Skies Bring Tears: 2000-05-23
Age Of Innocence: 2000-02-17

do you have this in weaponized form? if so, can I have it?

I love how the pumpkins layer things into their tracks and make them sound really big, but there is a point when it just gets to be too much and you lose the song. Machina has some tracks that just are not fun to listen too. That was the same problem with TFE some of the songs could use less production, while others had so much extra crap going on who knew what the actual tune was. I was sad because the songs where not wrong, but after the other pumpkins CD's this one just felt cheap.
Best song on the album is toss up between i of the mourning and age of innocence. Age is great I of the mourning strugles a bit at the start but has the greatest moments of the CD.
The guitar work on TEG, heavy metal machine, The implodeing voice all could have been made with a computer they where just fogy and emotionless.
heavy metal machine was the major let down. This song could rock, mostly towards the end, but it has too much freaking white noise, and just sounds like they didn't give a crap.
glass and the ghost children... would have been better without the tape recorder in the bathroom sound.
I actually like crying tree, its a good moody song. only song on the album that needed to be muddy sounding.
everything else is ok, just suffering a bit from muddy production. except TEG that song is lame.

listening to this album in my car, the crying tree of mercury finally clicked with me, and i realized that maybe i ought to have my car checked for leaking exhaust fumes.

j/k

i think a lot of the machina stuff was a new approach in making a "heavy" record for the pumpkins.

I will never renounce CTOM, that song rocks, and I'm going to listen to it right now.

I love Machina. It took a while but it finally clicked, in its entirety, too. I can understand some of the complaints, but I think it has its special place in the Pumpkins' history.

it is musically the most boxed in record. Corgan got stuck on the "sound" too much and it hurt the songs. Some of the songs are 5 and 6 minutes but they are the same thing over and over as opposed to earlier rockers like Geek USA which has 6 or 7 distinct parts.

yeah. if the songs were shorter it wouldn't be so bad. for example i love dross on m2, but extend it by 2 minutes and it would be lessened as a listening experience.

machina:-

awesome: siyl, iotm, this time and aoi.

solid: teg, sacred and profane, glass part of g+tgc, wound.

the rest is just okay or flawed - even if the raw material of a good song is present - either by being cluttered, overextended or maybe because an alternate recording (like arising for bsbt) exists illustrating how the song could've been better; to a degree this could also apply wrt teg and disco king, which is less overplayed.

it's all good except the first 2 songs

Machina is awesome. The production doesn't bother me at all
it's like two pieces of paper and you can only see through the first one, but you know there's more behind the second one...it takes time

i love machina. now if only i could find mine

I don't hate Machina... I think there are good songs in there BUT the versions in the album are horrible...

for example "Wound" is a beautiful acoustic song, used to be called "If you wait" but when it was made into a studio song it was butchered...

The everlasting Gaze is the worst song of the album... in my opinion... too much overproduction... too calculated to be a "hit single"... and the middle of the song when the music stops and you can only hear billy scream really makes you wonder why are you listening to a guy that can't sing in the first place...

Also... I would have completely LOVED the song "Glass and the ghost children" but Billy had to come and screw it up with a line in there that gets on my nerves and makes me wanna puke, one his trademark fuck-up-the-song lines... he says "one more cherry cola" in a part of a song that was supposed to be incredibly serious...

its a great record, all in all, and has a distinct sound of its own, even if that sound is not that great.. if that makes any sense.
it has some of corgan's best songwriting, but i can see how the production obscures that for some people.
wound is a pretty good example of this - its a brilliant song imo. nothing short of brilliant.
the low points of the record to me are the acapella bit in everlasting gaze, which simply destroys the song entirely, heavy metal machine, which is not that bad a song but the production is wretched.
imploding voice - a mediocre song at best with so-so production, and blue skies bring tears, which had potential but was destroyed on machina.
honestly, i cant think of another pumpkins album with that many mediocre tracks - all of their other albums are pretty close to perfect - but still, it doesnt mean machina is a bad record.
its pretty great in the end, plus you have the machina ii material which has some brilliant songs on it too. like all of billy's projects in the past 7 years or so, machina simply suffered from horrible choices, be it production or song selection or the choice to make it a laughable concept record.

the problem with machina is that after listening to machinaII, you can't help but feel as though they released the wrong album


'i of the mourning' is a damn awesome track though

always loved TEG, but having recently heard 'disco king', i aint going back

whatever, man. had the first leaked mp3 i heard from the band was "Glass' Theme" i would have throw a brick through my computer monitor and set fire to my home. more like ASS theme. total shit.

and disco king? really? disco king? ... i mean, really?

if a song as catchy as siyl didn't make it, aoi wouldn't.

disagree. SIYL was totally gothed the fuck out. that will never translate to a mass-audience.

AOI was completely hopeful and made you feel... well, pretty good. and it's anthemic, which totally helps that mass-population bit.

because everyone else does and i want to fit in. :(

edit: nm someone already did.

Also... I would have completely LOVED the song "Glass and the ghost children" but Billy had to come and screw it up with a line in there that gets on my nerves and makes me wanna puke, one his trademark fuck-up-the-song lines... he says "one more cherry cola" in a part of a song that was supposed to be incredibly serious...

what... that line bothers you? i never made it that far. that segue with billy being stupid as fuck talking to a therapist IN THE FORM OF A CHARACTER just makes me sick. LOWEST POINT OF THE RECORD RIGHT THERE. and it's right there in the fucking middle, before it even gets to "one more cherry cola", thereby making that entire line completely null and void because you should have already skipped it.

Theres too much crap, and theres nothing intricate there that excites me. I mean intricate like the riff on Geek USa.

I think that the guitar solo in Sacred and Profane is some of the best guitar work he has done. But he sings though it so it’s not my favorite.

i don't like it because the songs are shitty

i was listening to Machina earlier today, and it struck me as odd that everyone hates the record.

was it because you were spoiled after hearing the Arising versions of the songs? or is it just the production? the bullshit story behind the record? what is it?

I hate Adore, not Machina I/II

so was untitled. that went no where.

single wise, that album had no hope.

eh, i disagree, but merely because AOI is actually a solid song, and untitled sorta sounds like a rehash.

It was just too long. Songs like "With Every Light", "Blue Skies Bring Tears"and "The Crying Tree of Mercury" could have and should have been B-sides/outtakes. They're OK, but IMO they don't seem to fit with the overall feel of the album. Glass and the Ghost Children should have been the last song on Machina.

the last minute and 20 seconds of i of the mourning alone makes it good. fuck you guys,

The best part of "I Of The Mourning" is when Billy does that overdriven Cobain-like solo mid-song.

I've always gotten to impression that the leads on Machina were mostly Iha. I dunno why. But I like in IOTM at the end with the lead in the back of the vocals and it just makes me want to smash shit.

whatever, man. had the first leaked mp3 i heard from the band was "Glass' Theme" i would have throw a brick through my computer monitor and set fire to my home. more like ASS theme. total shit.

and disco king? really? disco king? ... i mean, really?

hell yes really

ever noticed how fucking annoying his voice gets on TEG?

I have always loved Everlasting Gaze, until it gets to the acapella part and then I always think "Seriously, THIS was the best take of Billy's vocals?"

:rofl:


exactly


he's not so bad on the rest of MACHINA........until you get to 'wound'

I've always gotten to impression that the leads on Machina were mostly Iha. I dunno why. But I like in IOTM at the end with the lead in the back of the vocals and it just makes me want to smash shit.

Oh ok. When you go back and listen, it could be Iha. I just thought that it was Billy because when they played IOTM on Letterman, Billy did the solos.

Oh ok. When you go back and listen, it could be Iha. I just thought that it was Billy because when they played IOTM on Letterman, Billy did the solos.

You could very well be right. I just associated the disjointed style of that solo more with Iha's stuff (Zero solo?). And the fact that Corgan could not have played all the lead parts on Machina live because he sings over many of them. But it could very well still be Corgan in the studio.

You guys are missing the small fact that Machina is the Pumpkins' finest and most relevant album.

My main gripes with Machina:

1) It doesn't sound very good. It's awash in fuzz and synths and it all blends together into a wall-of-mud. I honestly think the end of Heavy Metal Machine has one of Billy's coolest riffs, but it gets completely lost on the recording.

2) The songs are repetitive and lack dynamics. There are too many ABAB (you know, verse/chorus/verse/chorus x12) songs, like Raindrops + Sunshowers, Sacred + Profane, CTOM. It gets old by the end.

3) The songs lack genuine emotion. Since it's a "concept" where Billy assumes the character of Glass, most of the songs take on an affected tone.

The only song on the album that I think escapes all of these criticisms is Stand Inside Your Love, which is funny to me because didn't Billy say on Storytellers that this was the most "classic" sounding Pumpkins song on Machina?

uhhh, drrrr,,,, :noway:

yep. we all do.

On the contrary......... :erm:

noone hates machina

and damn, implosion, you say some pretty stupid shit

Right, because my opinions weren't echoed elsewhere in the thread...

Right, because my opinions weren't echoed elsewhere in the thread...

I agree with your three points..except I would add IOTM and Age of Innocence to the list of songs not damaged.