View Full Version : this is getting retarded


redbull
09-27-2006, 09:40 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=2496741

German Opera cancelled for fear of offending Muslims

By MELISSA EDDY

BERLIN Sep 27, 2006 (AP)— Germany's interior minister condemned a leading opera house's decision to cancel a production of Mozart's "Idomeneo" out of concern a scene featuring the severed head of the Prophet Muhammad could provoke a dangerous reaction from Muslims.

Kirsten Harms, director of Berlin's Deutsche Oper, said she decided to cancel the production after a warning from state security officials and described her decision as "weighing artistic freedom and freedom of a theater … against the question of security for people's lives."

But the move immediately provoked strong reaction across Germany.

"That is crazy," said Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, the country's top security official, speaking to reporters in Washington, D.C. "This is unacceptable."

The furor is the latest in Europe over religious sensitivities following cartoons of the prophet first published in a Danish newspaper and recent remarks by Pope Benedict XVI decrying holy war.

German government officials and Muslim leaders were to open a summit on Wednesday to launch a two-year dialogue on how to better integrate the country's 3 million Muslims.

After its premiere in 2003, the production by Hans Neuenfels drew widespread criticism over a scene in which King Idomeneo presents the severed heads not only of the Greek god of the sea, Poseidon, but also of Muhammad, Jesus and Buddha.

The severed heads are an addition by director Neuenfels to the 225-year-old opera, which was last performed by the company in March 2004. All four performances were pulled from the fall schedule after an anonymous call from a concerned operagoer worried about the impact of the Muhammad head.

Response from Germany's Islamic community was mixed, with some praising the decision and others calling on Muslims to accept the role of provocation in art.

The leader of Germany's Islamic Council welcomed the move, saying a depiction of Muhammad with a severed head "could certainly offend Muslims."

But in an interview with German radio, Ali Kizilkaya added: "I think it is horrible that one has to be afraid … That is not the right way to open dialogue."

The leader of Germany's Turkish community said it was time Muslims accepted freedom of expression in art.

"This is about art, not about politics," Kenan Kolat told Bavarian Radio. "We should not make art dependent on religion then we are back in the Middle Ages."

Neuenfels has insisted his staging not be altered, saying the scene where the king presents the severed heads represents his protest against "any form of organized religion or its founders."

"I stand behind my production and will not change it," Neuenfels told the Berliner Morgenpost in its Tuesday edition.

The opera house's decision comes after the German-born pope infuriated Muslims by quoting the words of a 14th-century Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith."

Earlier this year, violent protests erupted across the Muslim world after a Danish newspaper published 12 cartoons depicting Muhammad. The caricatures were reprinted by dozens of newspapers and Web sites in Europe and elsewhere, often in the name of freedom of expression.

Islamic law is interpreted to forbid any depiction of Muhammad for fear it could lead to idolatry.

"We know the consequences of the conflict over the (Muhammad) caricatures," Deutsche Oper said in a statement. "We believe that needs to be taken very seriously and hope for your support."

Berlin security officials had warned Harms that staging the opera could "in its originally produced form …. pose an incalculable security risk to the public and employees."

It is not only Muslims who have been offended by depictions of religion in art.

Last month Madonna drew criticism from some Roman Catholics in Germany for a show that staged a mock crucifixion. Mel Gibson's 2004 movie, "The Passion of Christ" met with disapproval from some Catholics and some Jews. In 2004, a Birmingham, England, theater canceled its run of "Behzti" after a violent protest by members of the Sikh community.

Still, many in normally open and tolerant Berlin, which has become a home for cutting edge and often contentious artistic productions, cautioned against compromising on issues of freedom of speech and art.

"Our ideas about openness, tolerance and freedom must be lived on the offensive. Voluntary self-limitation gives those who fight against our values a confirmation in advance that we will not stand behind them," said Mayor Klaus Wowereit.

Bernd Neumann, the federal government's top cultural official, said that "problems cannot be solved by keeping silent."

"When the concern over possible protests leads to self-censorship, then the democratic culture of free speech becomes endangered."

On the Net:

http://www.deutscheoperberlin.de

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Kanan Road
09-28-2006, 01:15 AM
humanity will continue to crumble until it is able to confront islamic facism.

Future Boy
09-28-2006, 02:28 AM
that was deep.

Starla
09-28-2006, 04:46 AM
So everyone must cater to, and tip toe around the sensibilities of all Muslims?

For how long?

duovamp
09-28-2006, 05:14 AM
Worse yet, how long do we have to pretend that any religions have viable arguments for anything they do, and how much longer is it going to take until Christianity has destroyed the world after it moved on from America?

JokeyLoki
09-28-2006, 08:24 AM
Worse yet, how long do we have to pretend that any religions have viable arguments for anything they do, and how much longer is it going to take until Christianity has destroyed the world after it moved on from America?


what

severin
09-28-2006, 08:41 AM
i don't understand why everyone is blaming the director of the opera-house. i blame the politicians. western politicians. these are the people who preach fear and terror. these are the people who talk about "serious threats" all the time when there is little to none. i mean seriously. what has happened after 9/11. there was madrid and london. both were bad, but there has been worse inner-european terrorism (ira, eta) in the alst decades, and nobody went around and used these fear-inducing rethorics. i really feel hate for the people who do nothing else but play the western civilisation off against the islamic world. they sow fear and harvest cowardice and hate. and then they complain about it. i'm so sick of all of that. i whish every single politician who used the alleged threat for pushing his agendas would die instantly. the world would be a better place for all of us...

/rant

RenewRevive
09-28-2006, 08:43 AM
Who thinks all organized religion holds back humanity's advance? They are inherently conservative forces that strive to preserve a status quo and resist moral or cultural progression. Individual religious beliefs are harmless, but people have a natural tendency to group together along similar thoughtlines, leading to hierarchies of "the worthy" and this wish to crush all dissent, whether exterior or interior.

RenewRevive
09-28-2006, 08:49 AM
The Turkish community leader had the right idea.

Relating to the article posted, in reference to the depiction of Mohammed in Islamic art leading to idolatry: I cannot believe this is the reason for such hostility. I can't imagine Muslims worldwide carving little statues of the Prophet inspired by the Danish cartoon, somehow.

Corganist
09-28-2006, 09:45 AM
i don't understand why everyone is blaming the director of the opera-house. i blame the politicians. western politicians. these are the people who preach fear and terror. these are the people who talk about "serious threats" all the time when there is little to none. i mean seriously. what has happened after 9/11. there was madrid and london. both were bad, but there has been worse inner-european terrorism (ira, eta) in the alst decades, and nobody went around and used these fear-inducing rethorics. i really feel hate for the people who do nothing else but play the western civilisation off against the islamic world. they sow fear and harvest cowardice and hate. and then they complain about it. i'm so sick of all of that. i whish every single politician who used the alleged threat for pushing his agendas would die instantly. the world would be a better place for all of us...

You might have a point if people were acting afraid of Muslim violence over artistic "slights" against them for absolutely no reason. But that's not really what's been going on. The opera house director probably didn't say "Well, we can't offend the Muslims because the TV and politicians says they're all scary terrorists." Like it or not, there have been several incidents where works that have offended Muslims have resulted in threats of violence against the makers, actual violence, and even death. The Danish cartoon flap is probably the most notable example of these sort of incidents. And its not like its a new thing either, ever hear of Salman Rushdie?

Especially recently, people have found that if you're going to put out a work that offends Muslims, you might have to watch your back. I don't blame the opera house guy for being afraid either, but I think its because its justified fear, not because he's being duped by political fearmongering. And I take a lot of issue with your assertion that there is little to no "serious threats" out there. I think that's patently untrue. Politicians may be exploiting them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

severin
09-28-2006, 10:14 AM
You might have a point if people were acting afraid of Muslim violence over artistic "slights" against them for absolutely no reason. But that's not really what's been going on. The opera house director probably didn't say "Well, we can't offend the Muslims because the TV and politicians says they're all scary terrorists." Like it or not, there have been several incidents where works that have offended Muslims have resulted in threats of violence against the makers, actual violence, and even death. The Danish cartoon flap is probably the most notable example of these sort of incidents. And its not like its a new thing either, ever hear of Salman Rushdie?

Especially recently, people have found that if you're going to put out a work that offends Muslims, you might have to watch your back. I don't blame the opera house guy for being afraid either, but I think its because its justified fear, not because he's being duped by political fearmongering. And I take a lot of issue with your assertion that there is little to no "serious threats" out there. I think that's patently untrue. Politicians may be exploiting them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

the outcry over the danish cartoons was way less than the media made it to be. the last incident in that matter was about the pope speech. the were pictures and movies of allegedly demonstrating thousands of muslims. when you looked closely at the footage you saw that there were perhaps 40 or 50 which were caught on the camera in a way to make it look more. the same with the danish thing. the cartoons were printed in september, more than a half year later it was utilized by a few radicals. then the iranian leaders sent out their followers to demonstrate...they just use the fear already imminent. and for teh serious threats that are supposedly there: where? the last thing that happened in london on the airport is full of contradictions. there hasn't been any info on the proceedings. some of the arrested ahve been freed already....we are spiralling down and it will end in desaster. but not in an terrorist attack.

i know i might be wrong, but that's my honest opinion

Nimrod's Son
09-28-2006, 10:32 AM
we should just gather the severed heads of all muslims and be done with it

RenewRevive
09-28-2006, 10:37 AM
severin:

I agree with your point that the media likes to exaggerate Muslim reaction to such events, in the same way that radical islamists try to create the impression that they speak for the general Muslim population.

As Corganist says though, the threat does exist.

smashingjj
09-28-2006, 11:09 AM
Muslims do not exist in the first place. They're made up by the media to scare normal Christian people.

Corganist
09-28-2006, 02:37 PM
severin:

I agree with your point that the media likes to exaggerate Muslim reaction to such events, in the same way that radical islamists try to create the impression that they speak for the general Muslim population.

As Corganist says though, the threat does exist.
I agree with this post.

The media has probably taken some liberties in overhyping Muslim outrage at times, and politicians probably do play on fear of terrorism a little too much. But all the same, there is a nugget of truth inside that hype. Publishing a cartoon of Mohammed or depicting his severed head in an opera, etc. probably will not invite a large angry Muslim mob to come down on you like the media makes out, but there are a few Muslims out there who do take stuff a bit too seriously. And people are right to fear that small group of fanatics, because they've done some bad things to people who've offended their sensibilities.

And there are threats that exist. They're probably not worth the earth shattering "OMG everybody hide! Civilization is on the line!" mentality used by the political class, but there are bad people out there who do bad things from time to time and from all indications want to do more.

Tchocky
09-28-2006, 02:59 PM
So everyone must cater to, and tip toe around the sensibilities of all Muslims?

This is just a sign of the times. For the forseeable future, radical Muslims are going to use every opportunity they can to rail against the "cross-worshippers" to the West and to rally the rest of the world to their cause.

Just look at my sig if you have any doubts as to how many Muslims around the world would react.

Ol' Couch Ass
09-28-2006, 04:15 PM
Just wait till I open my production piece "Muhammad was a Fag: The Musical". That will ruffle some feathers.

Taurus
09-28-2006, 04:52 PM
originally posted by RenewRevive:

Who thinks all organized religion holds back humanity's advance? They are inherently conservative forces that strive to preserve a status quo and resist moral or cultural progression. Individual religious beliefs are harmless, but people have a natural tendency to group together along similar thoughtlines, leading to hierarchies of "the worthy" and this wish to crush all dissent, whether exterior or interior.

well said.

the one x-factor to terrorism these days is the nuclear threat.

DeviousJ
09-28-2006, 09:23 PM
I agree with this post.

The media has probably taken some liberties in overhyping Muslim outrage at times, and politicians probably do play on fear of terrorism a little too much. But all the same, there is a nugget of truth inside that hype. Publishing a cartoon of Mohammed or depicting his severed head in an opera, etc. probably will not invite a large angry Muslim mob to come down on you like the media makes out, but there are a few Muslims out there who do take stuff a bit too seriously. And people are right to fear that small group of fanatics, because they've done some bad things to people who've offended their sensibilities.

And there are threats that exist. They're probably not worth the earth shattering "OMG everybody hide! Civilization is on the line!" mentality used by the political class, but there are bad people out there who do bad things from time to time and from all indications want to do more.

You're basically reinforcing Severin's point - including Mohammed in the opera probably won't end up with a mob of angry Muslims retaliating, but the media and governments play the whole thing up so that people actually DO believe it's a serious threat. To the point where people start to censor themselves out of fear of something that isn't likely in the first place. Sure threats EXIST, so what? You could get knocked down, better not cross any streets! Better not fly on any planes, they can crash! Don't go out at night, there are MURDERERS.

It's all about blowing things out of proportion, and that's what's been happening with the media and governments concerning this issue. Fear of 'those guys' is constantly being used to justify measures and actions taken, so it's a useful commodity. Sure there's a nugget of truth to it, but it's portrayed in such an extreme fashion that ridiculous shit like this starts to happen.

♫♪♫♪
09-28-2006, 09:41 PM
whatever good germans didnt immigrate to america at the first chance to get out of their shitty country died in the world wars. now its full of these gelded ultra liberal losers who are take their obsession with not violating the rest of the world community to the extreme of no longer procreating and instead allowing their land to be overrun by moslems. When they pull something like this their conscious mind has to stomach it by either priding themselves for their liberality and sensitivity or blaming it on the US for not being liberal and sensitive enough and thus creating the arab problem.

The fac that the humiliation, BDSM, and self-cannibalization fetishes are popular there is all part of the same self-neutering the country has undergone as a result of ww2

Eric Blair
09-28-2006, 09:52 PM
im glad ♫♪♫♪ has finally shed some light on this issue with his perceptive comments about the entire german population. good work.

♫♪♫♪
09-28-2006, 10:04 PM
way to write off my post, it's nto true anymore thanks to you

yo soy el mejor
09-28-2006, 10:05 PM
dont mind him.

Eric Blair
09-28-2006, 10:20 PM
♫♪♫♪thestampede?

Starla
09-29-2006, 03:44 AM
This is just a sign of the times. For the forseeable future, radical Muslims are going to use every opportunity they can to rail against the "cross-worshippers" to the West and to rally the rest of the world to their cause.

Just look at my sig if you have any doubts as to how many Muslims around the world would react.


Yes and it pisses me off that people are going to kow tow to them out of fear of what the consequences might render should they run an opera that was written hundreds of years ago.

severin
09-29-2006, 04:53 AM
Yes and it pisses me off that people are going to kow tow to them out of fear of what the consequences might render should they run an opera that was written hundreds of years ago.
oh good god, in mozarts original opera there is no sign of a severed mohammeds head. it's a staging. in the original, at this point, there is a sea monster which is beheaded. in this staging, the monster is portrayed as all the leaders of the big world religions. jesus, mohammed, buddha, and i don't know which one represents hinduism. the director interpreted the sea-monster of mozart as the monster of organized religion and the beheading as the fight against god. it's not only mohammed who is beheaded, but also jesus, buddha and all the others.

ravenguy2000
09-29-2006, 06:37 AM
since when are muslims let into operas anyway

Nate the Grate
09-29-2006, 09:28 AM
The only thing I know about Salman Rushdie is from that Seinfeld episode where they see something that looks like/is him.

Corganist
09-29-2006, 10:39 AM
You're basically reinforcing Severin's point - including Mohammed in the opera probably won't end up with a mob of angry Muslims retaliating, but the media and governments play the whole thing up so that people actually DO believe it's a serious threat. To the point where people start to censor themselves out of fear of something that isn't likely in the first place. Sure threats EXIST, so what? You could get knocked down, better not cross any streets! Better not fly on any planes, they can crash! Don't go out at night, there are MURDERERS.

It's all about blowing things out of proportion, and that's what's been happening with the media and governments concerning this issue. Fear of 'those guys' is constantly being used to justify measures and actions taken, so it's a useful commodity. Sure there's a nugget of truth to it, but it's portrayed in such an extreme fashion that ridiculous shit like this starts to happen.
I see what you're saying. I would tend to agree that self-censorship is a ridiculous thing if its preemptively driven by some kind of media/politician-hyped notion that "if you do something to offend Muslims, they will come out in violent protest." I definitely think its ridiculous if people walk on eggshells to avoid offending Muslims not because they care about their religious sensitivities, but because they just watch the news and listen to politicians and thus assume Muslims will react violently when offended. I'm not quite sure that's what's going on with this opera house, but it could be. If it is, then you guys are right and this is a ridiculous overreaction that is a direct result of the climate these days.

Alternately (and this is just pure speculation on my part), it could also be that the anonymous "concerned operagoer worried about the impact of the Muhammad head" whose call set this whole business in motion was actually someone making a threat. Doesn't it seem strange that one anonymous call would cause the opera house to go into cultural panic mode? If there was an actual threat of violence made, then I think that changes the whole equation. I think it'd be harder to blame the opera house director for cancelling the show. I'm sure that most threats of violence over cultural issues are never followed up on, but some have been. I think that makes it perfectly reasonable to take any such threat seriously, and I wouldn't say the media or politicians overhype of the threat of terrorism would have much of a role in that decision.

One can say that you should face such threats by sticking to your principles and not bowing to the pressure, and that the chances of the threat being carried out are small...but can you blame somebody for not taking the chance?

The Omega Concern
09-29-2006, 01:46 PM
originally posted by Nate the Grate:

The only thing I know about Salman Rushdie is from that Seinfeld episode where they see something that looks like/is him.

and your main source for news is the Daily Show...?

damn public schools.

Nate the Grate
09-29-2006, 06:01 PM
no, and I don't go to a public school.

RenewRevive
09-30-2006, 09:57 AM
Alternately (and this is just pure speculation on my part), it could also be that the anonymous "concerned operagoer worried about the impact of the Muhammad head" whose call set this whole business in motion was actually someone making a threat. Doesn't it seem strange that one anonymous call would cause the opera house to go into cultural panic mode? If there was an actual threat of violence made, then I think that changes the whole equation. I think it'd be harder to blame the opera house director for cancelling the show. I'm sure that most threats of violence over cultural issues are never followed up on, but some have been. I think that makes it perfectly reasonable to take any such threat seriously, and I wouldn't say the media or politicians overhype of the threat of terrorism would have much of a role in that decision.

One can say that you should face such threats by sticking to your principles and not bowing to the pressure, and that the chances of the threat being carried out are small...but can you blame somebody for not taking the chance?

It's all about perceived threat levels. With the Jerry Springer opera - or any piece of "art" satiring Christ - if a Christian had made a threatening phone call (which I'm sure happened), what effect would it have had? This is because such people are regarded as cranks, or harmless i.e. a low level threat. If it's Islam related, the threat is seen as likely to be acted upon. Whether this is down to media hype, actual incidences (like the murder of the Dutch filmmaker) or cultural predudice is a complex question.

Kanan Road
09-30-2006, 01:21 PM
if moses had walked a few more miles, we would have had all the fuckin oil