I was kinda disappointed in some of the responses, but hey, hopefully Billy & Jimmy's new material will force-feed their respective feet into their respective mouths.

"It'll sound like a Billy Corgan solo record with Jimmy Chamberlin drumming on it."

-- Greg Kot, the Chicago Tribune's music critic.
___

"I predict a 'back to basics' record that will attempt to recreate the sound that originally made them popular. Unfortunately, that's the template that most bands usually follow when they reunite and record a new album. So I expect to hear something that sounds like "Siamese Dream": shoegazy and grungy, with big, radio-ready hooks. But it won't take many risks, and it won't be very interesting. The Smashing Pumpkins became more experimental later in their career, and simultaneously less popular. I think Billy Corgan will try desperately to regain the level of fame he once enjoyed, and I think, like most comeback attempts, it will fail. Miserably.

Of course, I hope to be pleasantly surprised by an engaging and successful album. But the cynic in me has watched this happen too many times to honestly predict otherwise."

-- Amy Phillips, news editor at Chicago-based music Web site Pitchforkmedia.com.
___

"It'll sound like Billy masturbating himself to his third consecutive critical and commercial solo flop, is what'll sound like. Are you kidding me? Smashing Pumpkins was a band with James, D'Arcy, Jimmy and Billy -- and that was a long, long, long time ago. Had a couple of good tunes once ... that was about it. Whatever THIS current lineup of Zwan is, it ain't Smashing Pumpkins."

-- Mike Po, whose now defunct indie Chicago label Limited Potential helped launch the Smashing Pumpkins.
___

"I think that the band has evolved from every record. I think it was an evolution of their sound. I expect it to be not a formula sound. It will have a contemporary feel to it, what an almost new band will sound like because it's sort of still being led by Billy Corgan, because it's going to have his stamp of melody and heaviness. But it's going to have an edge to it. Basically Jimmy did a kind of prog-rock record as a solo record so his jazz and rock sort of fusiony drum playing has stayed intact. And Billy went and did a personal electronic record. So I think the two of them together, they're going to go back to their sound. The sound they branded in the '90s. And it's a deep history of great heavy melodic rock material."

-- Joe Shanahan, owner of the rock venue Metro Chicago, where the Smashing Pumpkins played their last show in December 2000.
___

"After making such a fuss about this, he's going to have to come with the goods; despite his track record of hits, after the final-few Pumpkins albums and tepid reception of the Zwan album (err, not to mention his poetry book), he has something to prove again: that he's still got it."

-- Chicago-based rock writer Jessica Hopper, whose work has appeared in Spin magazine and The Village Voice.

_____
Here is the full article. (http://www.wctrib.com/ap/index.cfm?page=asap_view&id=D8H94P6G0)

It'll song like zwan playing pumpkin songs. Only worse.


--Esty, soon to be sp board mod and life long pumpkin fan.

"After making such a fuss about this, he's going to have to come with the goods; despite his track record of hits, after the final-few Pumpkins albums and tepid reception of the Zwan album (err, not to mention his poetry book), he has something to prove again: that he's still got it."

-- Chicago-based rock writer Jessica Hopper, whose work has appeared in Spin magazine and The Village Voice.


this chick is dead on...

it'll sound like me taking a giant shit

keep the dream alive joe :(

and greg kot is clearly an idiot.....i hope. :erm:

well for all their professional insight they pretty much echoed the last year of Netphoria's own speculation only with better punctuation. but thanks for posting.

and greg kot is clearly an idiot.....i hope. :erm:


Typical reply to a somewhat negative comment about bill. :rolleyes:

that wasn't even somewhat negative, anyway. for all anyone knows, he just means it'll sound like Siamese Dream. thanks a lot, Greg Kot.

Its borderline. Davin took it as such, thats why he called Knot an idiot.

that wasn't even somewhat negative, anyway. for all anyone knows, he just means it'll sound like Siamese Dream. thanks a lot, Greg Kot.

its not that it was negative or positive -- I just took his comment to mean that he thought the new album would still be mostly electronic, but with real drums added (i.e. TFE + Jimmy). and that was pretty foolish, since billy has said the new album would be "metal" and that it would "rock", which implies guitar-based music not electronica-based.

Thats just stupid, but I can see why you would think that.

that's what i figured, man. dave projecting his own deep, dark fears of another TheFutureEmbrace (not that he doesn't like it, but he so wants that return to rock) on Greg Kot. poor Greg Kot.

that's what i figured, man. dave projecting his own deep, dark fears of another TheFutureEmbrace (not that he doesn't like it, but he so wants that return to rock) on Greg Kot. poor Greg Kot.


yes, i fear another TFE. And yes, I want to rawk again.
:jimmy: :billy:

i'm sure few here will fault you for that, dave.

thanks Hal, you know how I crave acceptance...

yet you should not allow it to cloud your judgment!

i try not to go over to the dark side, but sometimes anger and emotion do indeed cloud my judgement. :(

JUDGMENT!! WWWWWHAT THE FUCK!!

Do you mean: WWWWWHAT THE FUCK??

my voice did not rise at the end of that post, trust me.

i trust you yo, i don't know why, but i do.


quick....what movie?

Billy's music has never been easily identifiable with one genre, and no one can imagine another band ever creating music like the Pumpkins. The only thing expected of the upcoming album is that it will be original as hell like everything he's made, though netphorians will still fight over whether it's good or not. But even if you hated Zwan and/or TFE, Corgan has little to prove, he was generally trying to avoid the pumpkins sound with those efforts, I've no doubt that he can do what he's done many a time. I'd never question that he has the ability to make what more people would like, you don't question someone who's proven that continuously for 12 years.

i have no idea.

not The Big Lebowski.

big lebowski is closer than you think......


....half-baked.

that wasn't closer than i thought. anyway, i'm not good with quotes.

man, you are so literal! I will have to watch what I say.

i bet you're good with sci-fi quotes...

that wasn't closer than i thought.
you know, i don't think this sentence makes a lick of sense.

what i meant to say was, that's not that close. WWWWWHATEVER!!

i bet you're good with sci-fi quotes...
you caught the hell out of this, dave. nice going.


seriously, though, i had to google those every time. i've seen 2001 once, and i fell asleep near the end. jesus christ, dave, what am i doing here, with you, all of this, i feel, so phony, it's like, fucking, WWWWWHAT THE HECK is it?

what kind of name is davin anyway?

I like Kubrick, so I've seen 2001 a bunch of times.

Its been fun HAL, whats phony about it?

Davin is my real first name. Its English (descendent from some viking king or something) and my parents picked it out while living in the UK, where I was born (Sutton Coldfield).

Is tcm really short for texas chainsaw massacre?

but now you're IL davin, anagram of invalid. wwwwwhat does it all mean.

probably nothing.

i killed my old username on nepthoria and started using my first name because people in the community knew me by that name (like on ABMSP, etc.).

Is tcm really short for texas chainsaw massacre?

following the standard acronymical methodology of taking each word's initial letter in sequence, i'd say it certainly looks that way.

either that or "tiny chocolate monkey"

i like that.

i took my name from one of these:
http://www.lunaticfringe.org/~schizoid/schizoid/images/gear/sony_tcm354v.jpg

actually, that's a 354, and mine is a 353, but it looks identical. i guess it's supposed to stand for Tape Cassette Mono, or some shit.

and greg kot is clearly an idiot.....i hope. :erm:

he didn't say it's going to sound like TFE. he said it's going to sound like A billy corgan solo album + jimmy. the only band members we know are in this new reincarnation are....billy and jimmy. I fail to see how this makes him an idiot.

welcome to our thread, Junebug.

sometimes you have to say things a few times before davin understands.

i can certainly see that you're not one to miss the point of any post.

it really annoys me when people call siamese dream grungy.

i find it to be pretty clean-cut and pretty.

i can certainly see that you're not one to miss the point of any post.

you know me, always on top of things.


Peabody, I think billy said it best: "Grunge? ugh"

he didn't say it's going to sound like TFE. he said it's going to sound like A billy corgan solo album + jimmy. the only band members we know are in this new reincarnation are....billy and jimmy. I fail to see how this makes him an idiot.

ok, so what is TFE? A Billy Corgan solo album. The only one the last time I checked... :rolleyes:

So if TFE is the only solo album, and Greg Kot says it will sound like a Billy solo album, then why am I wrong for assuming he is talking about TFE? :think:

i took my name from one of these:


that looks like what shinji had, in evangelion, the show where my avatar comes from.

Yeah what was with that, it was the freaking future.

"It'll sound like Billy masturbating himself to his third consecutive critical and commercial solo flop, is what'll sound like. Are you kidding me? Smashing Pumpkins was a band with James, D'Arcy, Jimmy and Billy -- and that was a long, long, long time ago. ... Whatever THIS current lineup of Zwan is, it ain't Smashing Pumpkins."

-- Mike Po,

Hey look kids, intelligent, concise, and accurate content on the SP board. Well, our quota for the next ten years is filled. Carry on.

Dah, tapes are the way of the future.

It was cool how he kept listening to tracks 25 and 26 though, the episodes where everything goes to hell.

Also about the new SP record I do agree I think Billy will go for something safer than Adore or the Machinas to try and regain popularity before trying something a bit more experimental. However it annoys me when people say that because MSOTS and TFE weren't on par with his earlier work that that automatically means the new SP album is going to suck. He made those records trying his hardest to stay away from SP-style music which is what he does best. As such I'll stay optimistic about this new album. And as to the whole 'its not SP without James and D'arcy thing' I really couldn't care less if they aren't in it seeing as, provided the music is good, i don't want the new SP to implode again which really would be inevitable unless they all figured out a way to get along which I can't see happening.

Let's not forget that Billy strives to prove people wrong. Even if the new record sucks ass, they will tour and are bound to play their old songs.

its not that it was negative or positive -- I just took his comment to mean that he thought the new album would still be mostly electronic, but with real drums added (i.e. TFE + Jimmy). and that was pretty foolish, since billy has said the new album would be "metal" and that it would "rock", which implies guitar-based music not electronica-based.

remember billys solo album was going to "rock" as well.

I wish I could take Amy Phillips and Mike Po out to dinner to an expensive restaurant, because they are both exactly right in their statements, and I think they'll both be proven correct over time.

This "band" should stop...not while they're ahead, but while they are still just a little behind.

I wish I could take Amy Phillips and Mike Po out to dinner to an expensive restaurant, because they are both exactly right in their statements, and I think they'll both be proven correct over time.

This "band" should stop...not while they're ahead, but while they are still just a little behind.


A little behind who? The only current band that does anything for me personally right now is Radiohead. Most other bands are not even trying to move forward. Rock needs a shot in the arm right now and I think the pumpkins can be that if they pick up from where Machina 2 left off.

It's easy to say the Pumpkins will fail commercially and not regain their status of the Siamese Dream/Mellon Collie days. That's a no brainer. That stuff doesn't happen twice. There are examples to the contrary, but not many. All that we could reasonably hope for is that they put out good records. The band will do well on tour no matter who the other members turn out to be so it becomes a question of how the albums turn out.

I think it's foolish to think Corgan will return to a siamese dream style.

It would also be foolish to think that the pumpkins will ever be as big as they were in 1996. That doesn't mean they won't be awesome though.

It would also be foolish to think that the pumpkins will ever be as big as they were in 1996

do you mean to say they could be twice as big?

ok, so what is TFE? A Billy Corgan solo album. The only one the last time I checked... :rolleyes:

So if TFE is the only solo album, and Greg Kot says it will sound like a Billy solo album, then why am I wrong for assuming he is talking about TFE? :think:


Now here's the philosophical question, has there been an album Billy Corgan has made that can not be characterized as "sounding like a Billy Corgan solo album with Jimmy Chamberlin on drums"?

And for reference, Kot actually liked TFE.

As for Mike Po.....go on the dude's website, he's pretty bitter about the whole Pumpkins thing.

and why oh why did they get a pitchfork person on there? that website has single handedly fucked up rock criticism more than before.

I think it's foolish to think Corgan will return to a siamese dream style.

It would also be foolish to think that the pumpkins will ever be as big as they were in 1996. That doesn't mean they won't be awesome though.

agreed.

I was kinda disappointed in some of the responses, but hey, hopefully Billy & Jimmy's new material will force-feed their respective feet into their respective mouths.

"I predict a 'back to basics' record that will attempt to recreate the sound that originally made them popular. Unfortunately, that's the template that most bands usually follow when they reunite and record a new album. So I expect to hear something that sounds like "Siamese Dream": shoegazy and grungy, with big, radio-ready hooks. But it won't take many risks, and it won't be very interesting. The Smashing Pumpkins became more experimental later in their career, and simultaneously less popular. I think Billy Corgan will try desperately to regain the level of fame he once enjoyed, and I think, like most comeback attempts, it will fail. Miserably.


lol...what's your point? that guy acknowledges the fact they became less popular when they were experimenting and *already* critisizes them for probably be using their old formula. I don't really see what evidence he has for believing Billy fucking Corgan will take the easy way out. billy has always tried to create something new and unique everytime he released music, that's one thing you can't accuse him of at all. fucker.

The only current band that does anything for me personally right now is Radiohead. Most other bands are not even trying to move forward. Rock needs a shot in the arm right now and I think the pumpkins can be that if they pick up from where Machina 2 left off.

right now i feel the same way about radiohead and tool. hopefully sp will join them in the fight for rock.

now the new alice in chains, i think, is a joke. rotating lead singers like an alice in chains karoke band that happens to have a couple orginal members...ugh. i hate bands that end up sounding like their own greatest hits band.

I don't think Tool can be compared to the pumpkins, that's kind of depressing. Maynard once said something to the effect of 'I don't even know if it's music' regarding Tool, he was certainly right to question that. I think after a certain point, playing the same dull riffs and using the same breaking-up-every-syllable singing no longer implies music.

It's nothing earthshattering, but I'm confident the new album will be high quality. I don't think there's any reason to worry. Just like all of Corgan's albums, it will grow on all of us even if we are not blown away initially.

I'm curious to see the make up of the album pertaining specifically to the mixture of catchy electronical tunes (i.e 1979, Try Try Try) with pure metal selections (Stand Inside Y L, Cherub Rock.)

I just remember Billy at the St. Louis TFE concert saying at the end: "The next time you see me, at the EnormoDome, I will crush you into dust with the metal."

One thing is for sure, he definitely has a plan, and I'm sure it's well thought out.

I don't think Tool can be compared to the pumpkins, that's kind of depressing. Maynard once said something to the effect of 'I don't even know if it's music' regarding Tool, he was certainly right to question that. I think after a certain point, playing the same dull riffs and using the same breaking-up-every-syllable singing no longer implies music.

i don't think they are *like* the pumpkins, i just think they are one of the bands doing innovative things with rock right now, in terms of their song-writing. they rock. :rockon:

lol...what's your point? that guy acknowledges the fact they became less popular when they were experimenting and *already* critisizes them for probably be using their old formula. I don't really see what evidence he has for believing Billy fucking Corgan will take the easy way out. billy has always tried to create something new and unique everytime he released music, that's one thing you can't accuse him of at all. fucker.
I agree. Anyone who seriously predicts that Billy is going to all the sudden break down after all this time and try to make SD or MCIS v.2 has no business commenting on the matter, because obviously they don't know what they're talking about. (Someone from Pitchfork who doesn't know what they're talking about? Say it ain't so! :) )

The thing about Billy is that he thinks that he can shit out a MCIS/SD type rock record anytime he wants to, but he just doesn't because he thinks that'd be treading old ground. I don't see any reason a little commercial failure changes that. He thinks that he's always going to have that "generic" alt-rock record up his sleeve if he needs it. If I were to bet on it, I figure Billy's hoping once again to make a record that's "avant garde" or "the future of rock," and he's hoping that the interest generated by the Smashing Pumpkins name will help promote this pioneering new music. He won't get any satisfaction out of writing a formulaic mid-90s styled record to recapture lost glory. He wants to put out a record that sounds different and is a commercial success, silencing all the critics and once again allowing Billy to overcome all the people who doubted him.

I know some people are itching to write the guy off, but doing more music under the SP name isn't the ultimate last resort for Billy. Writing a record that sounds like 1995 all over again would be though.

None of that crap means anything because nobody knows a thing about this album. Shanahan could have a clue but I doubt it, it's all speculation. Critics usually suck anyway.

Here' what anyone who's been paying attention pretty much knows:

Billy won't be trying to recreate SD/Gish/MCIS again. I don't even think he's capable of allowing himself to do such a thing.

The whole "desperate for commercial success" thing isn't unreasonable. Billy has admitted (with suprising honesty) the lack of commercial success bothers him. But he just went after that in his last band, remember? It was called MSOTS. What should have been his best album since MCIS was overproduced and given a mainstream bent in some very awkward ways.

The whole "totally do whatever the hell I want whether it makes any sense or there is a market for it" also is within Billy's personality. But he just did that too...literally last album.

Of course by all rights, he has nothing to prove. But I guarantee you in his mind he does. That's a good thing. He's limited himself and shot himself in the foot over and over in recent years because he (subconciously maybe) was arrogant enough to think he could and get away with it. The last time Billy truly felt like he had something to prove and was willing to give himself over completely to that goal he created the best double album in rock history.

I think TFE was like hitting the reset button for Billy. It's literally been a decade since Billy's been interested in consistently rocking (on an album). Don't get me wrong, after the past 10 years I'd be a fool to bet Billy will start making good decisions. But the timing will never be better for him and Jimmy than it is right now. I only pray that he doesn't fill out the SP lineup with a malconent asian guitarist and a chick bass player who'll form a clique together, turn against Corgan, and effectively split up the band. If he makes THAT mistake again he's the dumbest retard ever to walk the earth and he deserves whatever he gets.

Great post, except for the final sentence. Keep up the good work.

I don't think Tool can be compared to the pumpkins, that's kind of depressing. Maynard once said something to the effect of 'I don't even know if it's music' regarding Tool, he was certainly right to question that. I think after a certain point, playing the same dull riffs and using the same breaking-up-every-syllable singing no longer implies music.

i have some respect for him now after reading this


and as far as the pumpkins...
it looks like one of these damned if you do damned if you don't things
people are saying it'll suck no matter which direction it goes in
i think the best idea would be to do a double cd with about 5 radio-aimed songs and whatever else they want to do-commercial or not-thrown into a mcis/white album-type deal. the worst thing about zwan and tfe was the lack of diversity in the songs. certainly he must realize that is maybe the main reason sd and mcis did what they did. an adventure, something to get into and be a part of.

this whole 'he could make a record like sd or mcis anytime but doesn't want to retread old ground' makes no sense when you look at how different those songs are. there's nothing wrong with following an idea that worked, that sold millions of fucking records. to not make an album like sd or mcis is to make a one or two dimensional album, that while it could be very listenable [like a zwan record with the right songs on it easily could've been], won't exactly be earth-shattering. do i have to mention the beatles again? would they be this 'biggest importantest band of evar' if they'd stayed in their initial phase?
not that that should be the goal, but sp managed to do it and have success with it, it seems pretty obvious what they should do. i don't expect it to happen of course.

The thing about Billy is that he thinks that he can shit out a MCIS/SD type rock record anytime he wants to, but he just doesn't because he thinks that'd be treading old ground

I actually seriously don't think he could put out an MCIS/SD type album again, although he has said he could but that'd be too easy and just retreading old ground etc.
I just don't think he has it in him any more
There's nothing wrong with that, everyone has their peak and i think his has passed
One reason may be he has already proven himself, the drive and hunger is no longer there i feel

"and as far as the pumpkins...
it looks like one of these damned if you do damned if you don't things
people are saying it'll suck no matter which direction it goes in
i think the best idea would be to do a double cd with about 5 radio-aimed songs and whatever else they want to do-commercial or not-thrown into a mcis/white album-type deal. the worst thing about zwan and tfe was the lack of diversity in the songs. certainly he must realize that is maybe the main reason sd and mcis did what they did. an adventure, something to get into and be a part of.

this whole 'he could make a record like sd or mcis anytime but doesn't want to retread old ground' makes no sense when you look at how different those songs are. there's nothing wrong with following an idea that worked, that sold millions of fucking records."


No major label would release a Pumpkins double album. They would assume that it wouldn't sell well and therefore would be a waste. Virgin balked at Machina 2 and that was a better record than M1.

As for retreading old ground it makes no sense to run a good idea into the ground. The idea worked for that period in time. There's no guarantee that the formula would work today. Alot of bands have tried that approach. Look at Limp Bizkit. They ran their only idea into the ground and you don't even hear from them anymore. Better to fail trying than just reheating the same old stuff. That's weak.

OK-

did you seriously just compare the pumpkins to limp bizkit?

Their "good idea" is what made them successful in the first place, so why not stick to it? SD and MCIS era is/was their most successful time, so why not bring that sound back since its why people listened to them in the first place...

So what your saying is, that they should just continue playing mediocre music because of the fact that going back to their original sound might fall out since its so "out dated"? But Machina wasnt a fall out though, right? I mean, all 100 copys that sold really did them justice in their great quest for change...

If anything, they have more of a shot having a successful comeback if they DO go back to their original sound and quit being so fucking artsy fartsy...

I agree. Anyone who seriously predicts that Billy is going to all the sudden break down after all this time and try to make SD or MCIS v.2 has no business commenting on the matter, because obviously they don't know what they're talking about. (Someone from Pitchfork who doesn't know what they're talking about? Say it ain't so! :) )

The thing about Billy is that he thinks that he can shit out a MCIS/SD type rock record anytime he wants to, but he just doesn't because he thinks that'd be treading old ground. I don't see any reason a little commercial failure changes that. He thinks that he's always going to have that "generic" alt-rock record up his sleeve if he needs it. If I were to bet on it, I figure Billy's hoping once again to make a record that's "avant garde" or "the future of rock," and he's hoping that the interest generated by the Smashing Pumpkins name will help promote this pioneering new music. He won't get any satisfaction out of writing a formulaic mid-90s styled record to recapture lost glory. He wants to put out a record that sounds different and is a commercial success, silencing all the critics and once again allowing Billy to overcome all the people who doubted him.

I know some people are itching to write the guy off, but doing more music under the SP name isn't the ultimate last resort for Billy. Writing a record that sounds like 1995 all over again would be though.

well said i believe.

Just like all of Corgan's albums, it will grow on all of us even if we are not blown away initially.

I dunno. Gish fucking blew me away, as did siamese dream as did mellon collie, in fact, so did adore. Machina was meh, but it did grow on me. The only reason it grows on you is because if you listen to it enough, you're bound to succumb. MSOTS and TFE are terrible compared to the smashing pumpkins. So you can take your opinion and fuck off.

Hoorah!

The pumpkins were about progression and experimentation... if it weren't for that they wouldn't be what they are... SD was phenomenal, but say after SD... they just repeated it... sure the album would've been good... but there wouldn't have been an MCIS... this applies to everything they've done... despite what many may say, would the pumpkins be held in the same regard without an Adore...

did you seriously just compare the pumpkins to limp bizkit?

He didn't.

Hi Shannon.

we're all just going to be punk'd on a massive scale and the album will just be a pristine audio recording of JC & Billy gang-fucking Linda Strawberry.

He didn't.

Hi Shannon.

Hi Dead.

He did... "Alot of bands have tried that approach. Look at Limp Bizkit." - in reference to the pumpkins

:D

He was saying that SP hasn't done that. And that Limp Bizkit has.

Hmmm...i dunno about that, but whatever...it still felt like somewhat of a comparison

OK-


Their "good idea" is what made them successful in the first place, so why not stick to it? SD and MCIS era is/was their most successful time, so why not bring that sound back since its why people listened to them in the first place...



the mission of the band has always been to progress with their sound....personally, as much as I would like a Siamese Dream II (as many other people would) if they did do that they would just be pandering to what we want and it's hard for me to respect that. The good bands, to me at least, are the ones where I'm surprised about a direction a band has taken with every album.....when you lose that element of surprise then I think the vigor and life of a band is basically gone.

Maybe a comparison/contrast. I'm going longboarding, later!

the mission of the band has always been to progress with their sound....personally, as much as I would like a Siamese Dream II (as many other people would) if they did do that they would just be pandering to what we want and it's hard for me to respect that. The good bands, to me at least, are the ones where I'm surprised about a direction a band has taken with every album.....when you lose that element of surprise then I think the vigor and life of a band is basically gone.

I agree with what your saying, but just because a band "progresses" in a certain direction, doesnt necessarily make it a good direction. I dont think the direction that they went with their sound after Adore was very credible. Granted, it wasnt too bad, but Machina felt all too staged for me. Like they were trying to attract a younger group of listeners with a "different" sound, and it failed miserably...

The element of surprise should be a bonus, not the underlying basis of a "good band"...i understand what you're saying though, i'm just biased i guess because i loved SD and MCIS and nothing comes close to being as good, to me at least... : )

Hi Shannon.

This is just getting disturbing now

This is just getting disturbing now

Why? Is their some obscure maliciousness to his "hi's"?

:erm:

I just spilled water all over my keyboard.

Why? Is their some obscure maliciousness to his "hi's"?

:erm:

He's a creepy bastard. You're too new to know the difference. I told you this.

I agree with what your saying, but just because a band "progresses" in a certain direction, doesnt necessarily make it a good direction. I dont think the direction that they went with their sound after Adore was very credible. Granted, it wasnt too bad, but Machina felt all too staged for me. Like they were trying to attract a younger group of listeners with a "different" sound, and it failed miserably...

The element of surprise should be a bonus, not the underlying basis of a "good band"...i understand what you're saying though, i'm just biased i guess because i loved SD and MCIS and nothing comes close to being as good, to me at least... : )


I disagree with the point that Machina was staged to attract young listeners. "Everlasting Gaze" may have been put on the album to do that (come on, it sticks out like a sore thumb put next to the rest of the songs), but doing an obscure concept album with a running story line and having a 10 min. ambiguous....just plainly weird song right in the middle (glass and the ghost children) is no way to attract the teenagers who were in the midst of nu-metal. Younger listeners like the pop songs, the 2-3 minute torrent of catchy-ness and (in the case of modern rock) angst, emo, more angst, and a nice dose of irony. THAT's why Zwan didn't sell well with the teens....but that's just my opinion (I actually sort of still like Zwan's record, it's light and catchy).

And I don't think the element of surprise should be a bonus. Doing the same musical style over and over again to remain in favor with both fans and critics is the highest form of selling out. Forget fucking commercials and playing the superbowl (etc.), resting on your laurels and playing a variation of the same fucking hit song is worse than any commercial deal. It shows that they're not taking a risk and wish to remain in a safe, mediocre version of the idea or style that got them known in the first place. If the music is good in their little niche, that's fine.....but I like to see what else they can do. If it's anything, it's at least interesting when they decide to step out a bit.

if they did do that they would just be pandering to what we want and it's hard for me to respect that.

How you can have any respect for this "rebirth" is beyond me and you're such a baby by turning off the rep. I thought you had some potential. When the oboard comes back I hope you leave with every other sack of useless shit on this board.

He's a creepy bastard. You're too new to know the difference. I told you this.

Ah yes, i do remember you mentioning this...



Dead, why are you creppy?

Hey don't quote esty, I have him on ignore for a reason.

How you can have any respect for this "rebirth" is beyond me and you're such a baby by turning off the rep. I thought you had some potential. When the oboard comes back I hope you leave with every other sack of useless shit on this board.


fuck rep, I didn't need it or to lose any more of it. And I'm going to stay just to torture you, sweetheart.

and since there's a potential of the music being good, you're fucking right I'll support a rebirth.

Ah yes, i do remember you mentioning this...



Dead, why are you creppy?


hahah. I think you should ask the gen board that.

Hey don't quote esty, I have him on ignore for a reason.

oh, I had to do one more reply. he's on the shit (ignore) list now. what a marvelous tool.

Yeah, it's nice. :)

I disagree with the point that Machina was staged to attract young listeners. "Everlasting Gaze" may have been put on the album to do that (come on, it sticks out like a sore thumb put next to the rest of the songs), but doing an obscure concept album with a running story line and having a 10 min. ambiguous....just plainly weird song right in the middle (glass and the ghost children) is no way to attract the teenagers who were in the midst of nu-metal. Younger listeners like the pop songs, the 2-3 minute torrent of catchy-ness and (in the case of modern rock) angst, emo, more angst, and a nice dose of irony. THAT's why Zwan didn't sell well with the teens....but that's just my opinion (I actually sort of still like Zwan's record, it's light and catchy).

And I don't think the element of surprise should be a bonus. Doing the same musical style over and over again to remain in favor with both fans and critics is the highest form of selling out. Forget fucking commercials and playing the superbowl (etc.), resting on your laurels and playing a variation of the same fucking hit song is worse than any commercial deal. It shows that they're not taking a risk and wish to remain in a safe, mediocre version of the idea or style that got them known in the first place. If the music is good in their little niche, that's fine.....but I like to see what else they can do. If it's anything, it's at least interesting when they decide to step out a bit.

As far as machina not being directed towards a younger crowd, might i refer you to the lyrics in Cash Car Star...

you gotta understand
it's just a fact that you must attack
gotta get it while you can

well everyone's gonna be a big star
everyone's gonna drive a fast car
everyone's gonna be in charge
'cause everybody's business is everybody's business

you, we hope you understand
you, it's just a master plan
you, we're coming down for you

I dont think at any point in my argument did i say that i wanted them to stick to their original style to appease the masses, i just think their original sound is the sound that worked best for them...There are a lot of tracks on MCIS that i would have concidered as them "taking a risk" but it was a success, not just a half-assed attempt at doing something different...I dont think any band should "do something different" because its "cool" to go against the grain, and it felt like with Machina that is what was going on...but, again, that is my opinion :)

I think Machina was less "different" and "taking a risk" than Adore. I'm not sure why people are singling this album out, it rocked pretty good. Maybe the machina mystery is affecting your view... :confused:

fuck rep, I didn't need it or to lose any more of it. And I'm going to stay just to torture you, sweetheart.

and since there's a potential of the music being good, you're fucking right I'll support a rebirth.


If reps on or not, you can still lose more of it honeybuns, i'll show you in a second. It'll take a lot to convince me that the rebirth is a good idea. Based on his more recent decisions, I'm not going to hold my breath.

As far as machina not being directed towards a younger crowd, might i refer you to the lyrics in Cash Car Star...

you gotta understand
it's just a fact that you must attack
gotta get it while you can

well everyone's gonna be a big star
everyone's gonna drive a fast car
everyone's gonna be in charge
'cause everybody's business is everybody's business

you, we hope you understand
you, it's just a master plan
you, we're coming down for you

I dont think at any point in my argument did i say that i wanted them to stick to their original style to appease the masses, i just think their original sound is the sound that worked best for them...There are a lot of tracks on MCIS that i would have concidered as them "taking a risk" but it was a success, not just a half-assed attempt at doing something different...I dont think any band should "do something different" because its "cool" to go against the grain, and it felt like with Machina that is what was going on...but, again, that is my opinion :)


and we're all entitled to our opinions......but Cash Car Star was not on Machina......not the Machina that counted when it came to record sales for the band anyway.

and we're all entitled to our opinions......but Cash Car Star was not on Machina......not the Machina that counted when it came to record sales for the band anyway.


Yes because it was always billys idea to give it away for free. Right.

and we're all entitled to our opinions......but Cash Car Star was not on Machina......not the Machina that counted when it came to record sales for the band anyway.

Ok..."not the machina that counted when it came to record sales" - thats besides the point, i am not talking in terms of record sales and publicity, i am talking about the band itself...

Ok..."not the machina that counted when it came to record sales" - thats besides the point, i am not talking in terms of record sales and publicity, i am talking about the band itself...


then I'm a bit confused by what you mean when you say "staging to expose SP to a younger audience with Machina" (or something like that). Do you mean strictly lyrically or stylistically? If you mean that, then I'll agree with the example but apart of staging an attempt to get younger listeners is to get the songs easily to younger listeners. As cool as it was for Machina II to be free, it didn't receive any promotion and thus didn't really do the job in getting a large, younger audience.

then I'm a bit confused by what you mean when you say "staging to expose SP to a younger audience with Machina" (or something like that).

even still...i am talking about the BAND as a whole...the sound, the lyrics...Cash Car Star was just an example of the reason WHY i feel that their music during that time was directed towards a younger crowd, not the absolute reason...i believe you missed my point

the kids love Grand Funk Railroad, goodness knows.

even still...i am talking about the BAND as a whole...the sound, the lyrics...Cash Car Star was just an example of the reason WHY i feel that their music during that time was directed towards a younger crowd, not the absolute reason...i believe you missed my point

explain it then

explain it then

maybe its all on personal opinion, i feel that Machina was very under developed and thrown together, therefore in my eyes, it was a very "immature" point for them...i am too lazy/buzzed to type out the whole reasoning behind my opinions :)

As far as machina not being directed towards a younger crowd, might i refer you to the lyrics in Cash Car Star...
You do know that Cash Car Star was written and recorded originally to be on Adore, right?

I still want to hear that version.

I prolly shouldnt have used Cash Car Star as my example defending why i feel that they have progressed in a negative direction from MCIS, since it seems that that is the only thing that is being taken out of my argument, but i am hoping it got my point across a liiiiittle bit at least... :)

didn't billy say himself that it won't sound how you'd expect it to sound? i really doubt we'll see a "return to form" with an album with tracks that could pass for a siamese dream song ...

But it will rock for sure.

just to clarify cause i'm not sure if ppl got it
i don't mean they should copy sd or mcis track for track or anything
i mean do an album that has a lot of different types of songs, therefore making it like sd and mcis. that's all really. i don't care if any of the songs actually sound like songs on those albums, though i certainly wouldn't have a problem with that. one thing i would welcome is if they could just not take everything so fucking seriously all the time. THAT would be a nice 'progression'.

didn't billy say himself that it won't sound how you'd expect it to sound? i really doubt we'll see a "return to form" with an album with tracks that could pass for a siamese dream song ...

that's where I'm taking the whole article (you know, the one that this topic is about) with a grain of salt. Have we ever really known what this guy is going to do stylistically? First time I heard TFE I was in shock because it didn't sound like how I expected it to sound at all (just to clarify, I like TFE). MCIS, then Adore, then Machina, then Mary Star, then TFE? Billy hasn't had a seamless stylistic progression from album to album for a long time. The only time where you can argue where the progression has been easy to digest is from Gish to SD.....MCIS is arguable.

i think TFE will be a good indication of how it will sound. i personally liked TFE's sound and concept and i think more depth could be explored if he went in that direction. everything seems to be point in a more New Wave/Rock direction since Adore and i think every album succeeding it supports that notion (with the exeption of MSOTS -- which was more of a footnote and professional misstep if anything)

he needs to play his cards carefully though. If Iha isn't in the reunion (nevermind D'arcy), he's going to have to put out quite an album in order for that absence to not matter to a lot of people.

no matter he does what he's going to get panned for it. the only way he'll every regain mass acceptance is by making some cookie cutter rehash of anything he did before Adore

no matter he does what he's going to get panned for it. the only way he'll every regain mass acceptance is by making some cookie cutter rehash of anything he did before Adore


I think he'll get panned even if he does a cookie cutter rehash of pre-Adore material. Critics/journalists don't like this guy.....this goes way back. I'm not claiming there's a conspiracy or anything, that's just how it is. He's too mainstream for the indie people and too weird for the mainstream people........and he's got a big mouth (but he sure is quotable).

I find it interesting that the critics and editor quoted can have so much pessimism at the ready for an album that hasn't even been recorded yet. I mean, I get it when we, the fans do because we're probably more focused on the particular band and have more depth and therefore diversity of opinion. And I can get if Potential wants to sound off with his vitriol, although it makes him look like an asshole more than anything else.

But I find it interesting that music can face such visible criticism before it's even made, particularly in an artistic context in which truly shitty music is churned out on a daily basis. I mean, if SP2 made an album of one-note polka songs on the kazoo, it would probably still suck less wind than the next bullshit top 40 hit that will predictably become the summer anthem of 2006. A band making an ingenuous effort seems like an illogical target in this context, particularly when so little is known about the nature of their revival.

I think it's ultimately a credit to the Pumpkins' first incarnation, and people, even critics, liking it so much that they dislike the idea of seeing it either rehashed or altered. But that also requires a ridiculous sense of entitlement, as if having liked something once equates to ownership of it. Nevertheless, it seems to speak more to the band's past success than it does to any real ideas about the musical direction that any upcoming release might take, given that most of the people quoted responded to questions about music with answers about marketability and industry politics.

I dunno. Gish fucking blew me away, as did siamese dream as did mellon collie, in fact, so did adore. Machina was meh, but it did grow on me. The only reason it grows on you is because if you listen to it enough, you're bound to succumb. MSOTS and TFE are terrible compared to the smashing pumpkins. So you can take your opinion and fuck off.

Hoorah!


So, what your saying is you liked EVERY song on all 4 of the first albums the first time you listened to them? There weren't even a few songs that took time to grow on you!? Wow!

The point is, because it appears that everything has to be analyzed to death on this site, that even I didn't like every single song on Machina the first time I heard it, for example. It took me a few listens to absorb it all, notice the idiosyncracies, click with the nuances and differentiate it from the other albums. Now, I play Machina just as much as any of the others.

And as far as the taking my opinion and fuckin off part, uhh, err, thanks a lot!

I'll file that away in the old mental rolodex.......for future Netphorian use.......

no matter he does what he's going to get panned for it. the only way he'll every regain mass acceptance is by making some cookie cutter rehash of anything he did before Adore


No doubt. Then, of course, he'll be criticized for that too. It seems it's a double - edged sword of sorts. Corgan just creates so much emotion with people that he's bound to always have naysayers as well as fervent supporters. There doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground with Billy.

maybe its all on personal opinion, i feel that Machina was very under developed and thrown together, therefore in my eyes, it was a very "immature" point for them...i am too lazy/buzzed to type out the whole reasoning behind my opinions :)


You're not making a hell of a lot of sense, generally speaking. Maybe those autistic kids had more of an impact on you than you realize. I find it ironic that you accuse me of having a lack of intelligence and being "autistic," when in actuality it's you that can't seem to assimilate information well and consequently can't form a fucking coherent point.

Hope the being lazy/buzzed gig continues to work out well for ya. There are very few qualities I find more attractive in a woman. ;)

i don't know about this whole "it's going to rock" thing. in fact, i can say i explicitly remember on the old light-blue bc.com billy repeatedly talked about how the songs on TFE were really rockin as he recorded them....about how he was excited to make a rock record etc.
basically what i'm saying is that regardless of what songs may sound like to billy now, everything changes when billy hits the studio. i can imagine that some of teh songs on tfe were much more "rockin" prior to actually recording/sterilizing them (see any song from the arising tour vs the machina version)

I think he's gotta know that for a SP2 album he needs it to rock. All of their albums rock anyway, at least many of the songs do.

Shut the fuck up dead. You listen to kylie for fucks sake.

i like billy coogan

You're not making a hell of a lot of sense, generally speaking. Maybe those autistic kids had more of an impact on you than you realize. I find it ironic that you accuse me of having a lack of intelligence and being "autistic," when in actuality it's you that can't seem to assimilate information well and consequently can't form a fucking coherent point.

Hope the being lazy/buzzed gig continues to work out well for ya. There are very few qualities I find more attractive in a woman. ;)

Dude, shut the fuck up...my point is coherent and if you dont understand it, thats your fucking problem...I am not going to sit here and write a fucking novel on this subject when i am shitfaced, so yeah, you're gunna be getting a half assed attempt from me in an argument...

I will puke if sp2 sounds like siamese dream

He's a creepy bastard. You're too new to know the difference. I told you this.


I like creepy bastards. They are much better than self righteous whiney bitches.

I will puke if sp2 sounds like siamese dream
You puke every day. Because you have anorexia.

You puke every day. Because you have anorexia.


If you saw my ass you wouldn't write that shit.

I'm pretty sure shannonhh222 is a guy btw, just judging by their posts

If you saw my ass you wouldn't write that shit.
I'm sorry. :(

I'm pretty sure shannonhh222 is a guy btw, just judging by their posts

negative :) I am a girl...

I'm sorry. :(


Don't be. Actually it's a good thing.

Last time the pumpkins set to 'rock' again, we got Machina. It had a couple of good songs, but a lot of them seemed really forced. Adore was the perfect album, had a lot of different kinds of songs on it. I think Billy works best when he's not out to prove anything.

i like billy coogan


The guy that shagged Courtney Love?

Don't be. Actually it's a good thing.
Agreed. Asses are a good thing.

Don't be. Actually it's a good thing.


I will join in a show of pride for a healthy pants size. What's more, I will now walk the talk by eating half a pint of Haagen Dazs.

"It will debut in the Top 10 Albums and fall out of the top 200 within 2 months. The only thing worse than the album will be the tour. The critics will be expecting a flop. They will grossly underestimate just how poor this album will do. The people who do purchase it will be lucky to get 50 cents for it at their local used CD store."

- Boner, Fort Worth Attorney and Noted Smashing Pumpkins Fan.

the kids love Grand Funk Railroad, goodness knows.

"For more information on Grand Funk, consult your school library!"

"For more information on Grand Funk, consult your school library!"



ha!

you and your quotes, dave. oh you.

you and your quotes, dave. oh you.

"Grand Funk Railroad paved the way for Jefferson airplane, which cleared the way for Jefferson starship. The stage was now set for the Alan Parsons project, which I believe was some sort of hovercraft."

"Homer, it's par-tay and we wouldn't par-tay with you if you were the last dad on earth!!!"

"alright"

Last time the pumpkins set to 'rock' again, we got Machina. It had a couple of good songs, but a lot of them seemed really forced.

i would gladly accept another record like machina. i do agree about it sounding forced...and pretentious as hell. always thought it was lame that he had to write songs about the 'end of the band'. maybe one or two would've been alright. soot and stars is mesmerizing. overall i think machina proved that billy needs to make double albums every time b/c he can't pick the right songs to go on a single disc, hehe.

Adore was the perfect album, had a lot of different kinds of songs on it.

the songs may have not been all 'the same', but there was a similar sound and tone throughout, you have to admit. more so than any other sp album inc. machina

I think Billy works best when he's not out to prove anything.

then you must be crazy :p

"I used to be With IT. But then they changed what IT was. Now what I'm with isn't IT, and what's IT seems scary and wierd. It'll happen to YOU."

Of course the band is going to go back to their old ways. Take Zwan for instance. November 2001 songs..i'm sure most of us agree that those songs were prettty good...billy labels the sound as "too pumpkiny"

Songs from TFE such as MOH, Camera Eye, Mini, Tilt...pretty pumpkiny and most people's favorites.

Now billy has his original creative license back and will be able to do whatever he damn well pleases without having to worry about being too pumpkiny.