View Full Version : David Ortiz Suicide Watch


Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 03:37 PM
A-Rod wins the MVP

sppunk
11-14-2005, 03:38 PM
Closer vote than I expected.

Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by North


and well deserved.
Yeah, regardless of biased opinions by Sox fans, there really was no comparison.

Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
Closer vote than I expected. Not me. Gammons et al were openly campaigning for him.

Karl Ravech practically only showed Ortiz clips on Baseball Tonight.

neopryn
11-14-2005, 03:40 PM
i thought this was gonna say he tested positive

Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by North


i hate arod but... he owns a glove and uses it well If A-Rod was a DH this year, his stats are still better than Ortiz, who only led A-Rod in walks, RBI, and doubles.

RBI is a joke stat anyway

sppunk
11-14-2005, 03:46 PM
Hey, it's the first Yankee MVP since Mattingly. Let them continue to be forever linked as far as playoff success is concerned.

Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
Hey, it's the first Yankee MVP since Mattingly. Let them continue to be forever linked as far as playoff success is concerned.
Mattingly career postseason:
.417 BA .440 OBP .708 SLG 1.148 OPS

sppunk
11-14-2005, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

Mattingly career postseason:
.417 BA .440 OBP .708 SLG 1.148 OPS I was going for the zero titles stat.

Nate the Grate
11-14-2005, 04:15 PM
I know this is off topic, but does anyone know if George King voted this year? that would be the George King that left Pedro off his ballot in 1999 because he was a pitcher, a year after giving David Wells (of the yankees then) an MVP vote. oh, did I forget to mention that Wells is a pitcher, and that King was a NY sportswriter?

anyways, he probably didn't, because I would think he would impose a strict NO DH rule for the award.

oh yeah, and nobody really cares about awards. the only stat that matters is David Ortiz WS Rings 1, A-Rod WS Rings 0. would I have the same attitude had Ortiz won? of course not, but I'm bitter so I have to go with that.

Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
I was going for the zero titles stat.
I know you were. Like Williams and Yaz and Freddie Lynn and Jim Rice and Mo Vaughn.

We were nice anough to give Clemens a ring though. I believe he's the only BoSox MVP ever to have one.

Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Nate the Grate
I know this is off topic, but does anyone know if George King voted this year? that would be the George King that left Pedro off his ballot in 1999 because he was a pitcher, a year after giving David Wells (of the yankees then) an MVP vote. oh, did I forget to mention that Wells is a pitcher, and that King was a NY sportswriter?

anyways, he probably didn't, because I would think he would impose a strict NO DH rule for the award.

oh yeah, and nobody really cares about awards. the only stat that matters is David Ortiz WS Rings 1, A-Rod WS Rings 0. would I have the same attitude had Ortiz won? of course not, but I'm bitter so I have to go with that.
David Ortiz only received 1st and 2nd place votes and was left off no ballots.

Rodriguez received a third place vote (Dan Shaunnessy) and was left off no ballot.

Also you really don't want to get into a ring comparison here. For a Boston fan to use that against a Yankee fan is a losing argument.

Nate the Grate
11-14-2005, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

David Ortiz only received 1st and 2nd place votes and was left off no ballots.

Rodriguez received a third place vote (Dan Shaunnessy) and was left off no ballot.

Also you really don't want to get into a ring comparison here. For a Boston fan to use that against a Yankee fan is a losing argument.

1. Yes I realize that Ortiz got all first and second place votes, which is why I said King probably didn't get a vote, because he most likely would have done something stupid like go with a "no DH rule"

2. Shaughnessy didn't vote. It was a west coast writer that voted Vlad first, Ortiz second, Rodriguez third.

3. I'm talking Ortiz vs. A-Rod with the rings, not franchise vs. franchise. A-Rod didn't get that "the Cooler" nickname for nothing.

some douche had the nerve to leave Ramirez off the ballot completely. probably just some writer trying to make headlines. oh well, whatever.

Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Nate the Grate


1. Yes I realize that Ortiz got all first and second place votes, which is why I said King probably didn't get a vote, because he most likely would have done something stupid like go with a "no DH rule"

2. Shaughnessy didn't vote. It was a west coast writer that voted Vlad first, Ortiz second, Rodriguez third.

3. I'm talking Ortiz vs. A-Rod with the rings, not franchise vs. franchise. A-Rod didn't get that "the Cooler" nickname for nothing.

some douche had the nerve to leave Ramirez off the ballot completely. probably just some writer trying to make headlines. oh well, whatever.
Does it bother you at all that Ortiz didn't even have the best stats .. <i>for a DH in the AL?</i>

Nate the Grate
11-14-2005, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

Does it bother you at all that Ortiz didn't even have the best stats .. <i>for a DH in the AL?</i>

no? it did bother me that they got knocked out of the playoffs. did it bother you that Jeter didn't have the best fielding percentage for shortstops, yet still won the gold glove?

Sepiae
11-14-2005, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

Does it bother you at all that Ortiz didn't even have the best stats .. <i>for a DH in the AL?</i>

Are you saying that other full-time DHs have better stats or that as a DH, he didn't have the best stats? If it is the former, please provide the numbers because I'm curious.

Also, there was a batting comparison and a good one. No Sox fan I know is going to argue Rodriguez was undeserving.

For no comparison, it'd be who you want up at bat with 2 out and the tying run on 2nd in the 9th.

Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Nate the Grate

did it bother you that Jeter didn't have the best fielding percentage for shortstops, yet still won the gold glove?
I hope you realize FPCT doesn't tell the whole story.

Cabrera has an advantage in FPCT, obviously. However, his 454 assists in 731 chances to Cabrera's 347 assists in 583 chances show that Jeter was getting to more balls (I have to question whether luck comes into play, but I can't imagine 20%+ more chances simply due to luck). More chances, more mistakes. However, this isn't definitive enough for me. Yes, Jeter played in more games, and yes, the Yankees had a higher GB/FB ratio, but you can't discount the numbers.

But look at Range Factor. Cabrera, in fact had the lowest range factor for all qualifying shortstops in the American League. This, more than luck, explains the differences in the chances. In fact, Jeter was ranked #2 in the league in RF. Finishing first was Julio Lugo at 4.94. While impressive, Lugo is out of the GG conversation when you factor in his 24 errors and .968 FPCT.

So who else is there? Jhonny Peralta? Juan Uribe? Angel Berroa? None of them have the defensive stats to back up an award.

It seems Jeter is actually deserving this year, or at least a great case can be made for him.

Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Sepiae


Are you saying that other full-time DHs have better stats or that as a DH, he didn't have the best stats? If it is the former, please provide the numbers because I'm curious.

Also, there was a batting comparison and a good one. No Sox fan I know is going to argue Rodriguez was undeserving.

For no comparison, it'd be who you want up at bat with 2 out and the tying run on 2nd in the 9th.
Travis Hafner: .305 BA .408 OBP .595 SLG 1.003 OPS
David Ortiz: .300 BA .397 OBP .604 SLG 1.001 OPS

Sepiae
11-14-2005, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

Travis Hafner: .305 BA .408 OBP .595 SLG 1.003 OPS
David Ortiz: .300 BA .397 OBP .604 SLG 1.001 OPS

Duh. I don't know how I didn't know that.

Those are wicked close, though, and Hafner played 22 fewer games.

Nimrod's Son
11-14-2005, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Sepiae


Duh. I don't know how I didn't know that.

Those are wicked close, though, and Hafner played 22 fewer games.
Yeah. Hafner shouldn't have been MVP either. He should have gotten a lot better showing though.

I said before, my ballot would have been A-Rod, Hafner, Ortiz. I'm not taking anything away from Ortiz, he had a fantastic season.

sppunk
11-14-2005, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Nimrod's Son


I said before, my ballot would have been A-Rod, Hafner, Ortiz. I'm not taking anything away from Ortiz, he had a fantastic season. Thank God Almighty your vote will never matter.

Nate the Grate
11-15-2005, 12:02 AM
this argument has been made all over the place, but it's really stupid how the MVP has become the "player with the best stats" award. sure, maybe hafner had like percentage point better stats in some categories, but you cannot put him on the same level of david ortiz in importance to the team. there was that stretch towards the end of the season where when ortiz was at the plate from the 7th inning on, no one turned off their televisions. he is the most feared hitter in baseball, hands down. his clutch performances were awe-inspiring. it was one of those cases where the entire team climbed on his back for the stretch run. he was more important to the boston red sox than travis hafner was to the cleveland indians. the whole MOST VALUABLE PLAYER thing is a sham nowadays anyways. I mean, I would actually be okay with Mariano Rivera winning the MVP with Ortiz coming in second, because I feel that if you take away rivera, the yankees don't go anywhere. you take away Ortiz, and the Sox offense is severely crippled. you take away A-Rod...well, obviously the offense takes a hit, but I honestly don't think it's the same hit the Sox take when you subtract Ortiz.

I don't know, just my 2 cents worth.

neopryn
11-15-2005, 12:08 AM
who the hell cares

Nate the Grate
11-15-2005, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by neopryn
who the hell cares

espn.com has a story about the penguins possibly moving to kansas city for the 2007 season. thoughts?