More of the same I guess but how can anyone claim progress is being made in Iraq when casualties are on the <i>increase</i>? Any little good news in Iraq is immediately more than cancelled out when something like this happens. I've never been on the side of immediate withdrawl but the idea is looking more attractive everyday. How can anyone expect to control these savages, Al Queda no less (who weren't even a presence before the war)?

<img src="http://sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/09/15/mn_iraq1170.jpg">

<img src="http://sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/09/15/mn_iraq1774.jpg">

12 Explosions in Iraq Kill at Least 152

By SLOBODAN LEKIC, Associated Press Writer

Wednesday, September 14, 2005

Iraqis gather at the site of a suicide car bombing in Bag... A man reacts as he sits next to the bodies of victims, ou... Iraqis look at an automobile which was destroyed during a... A woman cries as her wounded son is treated in a hospital... More...


(09-14) 06:11 PDT BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) --

A dozen explosions ripped through the Iraqi capital in rapid succession Wednesday, killing at least 152 people and wounding 542 in a series of attacks that began with a suicide car bombing that targeted laborers assembled to find work for the day. Al-Qaida in Iraq claimed responsibility.

The one-day death toll was believed to be the worst in the capital since major combat ended in May 2003, and Al-Jazeera said Al-Qaida in Iraq linked the attacks to the recent rout of militants from the city of Tal Afar by U.S. and Iraqi forces.

Before dawn Wednesday, 17 men were executed in a village north of Baghdad, which pushed the death toll in all violence in and around the capital to 169.

Wednesday's worst bombing killed at least 88 people and wounded 227 in the heavily Shiite neighborhood of Kazimiyah where the day laborers had gathered shortly after dawn.

The carnage was the worst single day of bloodshed since March 2, 2004, when coordinated blasts from suicide bombers, mortars and planted explosives hit Shiite Muslim shrines in Karbala and in Baghdad, killing at least 181 and wounding 573

of course Al Queda can just waltz right in

The US can't regulate its own border why would anyone expect we could regulate someone else's

i'm amazed that every single iraqi doesn't hate america


that's horrible

So would this all stop if we pulled out of there? I'm not sure I understand the situation.

freedom's on the march!

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
of course Al Queda can just waltz right in

The US can't regulate its own border why would anyone expect we could regulate someone else's

Do you support this war?

Originally posted by Debaser
freedom's on the march!

you played the devils advocate on this one back in the day ... and you had a lot of answers to my concerns about this exact sort of thing happening.

so whats the solution now lucifer?

Originally posted by LittleWing
So would this all stop if we pulled out of there? I'm not sure I understand the situation.

i dont think it would for a second. this is as much a civil conflict between rival religous factions as it is one against an occupying power

and iraq is indeed a sinking ship but i dont think leaving is the right thing to do. as bad as it is for them and for americans right now, america has taken this responsibility for itself now and it has no option but to carry it. but, hey, if they werent so horribly inept they might be having an easier time right now. on one level, one specific level, i dont any sympathy for them whatsoever. iraq is a wasteland and theres a whole population rotting away. i cant really give priority of my concern to joe patriot from arkansas who lost a limb or something, while entire families are being bound and executed int he middle of the night because some neighbour pointed them out as being shiite collaborationists. its all equally sad, but if were just talking about where sympathies lie, mine lie with the latter

heres this mondays globe and mail recap of the week. required reading if you want to get a sense of the situation. its a list of all the "key events" inside iraq in the past week. about 99% of them have something to do with death



Iraq last week (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050912/IRAQWEEK12/TPInternational/?query=week+in+iraq)

Key events inside Iraq during the past seven days.


BADHDAD: An Iraqi major-general is shot dead outside his house.

BASRA: 1 British soldier killed and 3 injured in an attack.

MOSUL: U.S. military kills a key al-Qaeda leader and captures 4 others in a raid.

QAIM: The bodies of 4 Iraqis including 1 in an army uniform found shot dead with their hands tied behind their backs.

SAMARRA: 1 U.S. soldier is killed and 2 injured by a roadside bomb.

TAL AFAR: 156 insurgents are killed and 246 captured in a joint assault by Iraqi and American soldiers. 5 Iraqi soldiers are killed and 3 wounded. Tens of thousands of Tal Afar's residents are living in tents outside the city. Food, water and medical supplies are scarce.

Saturday

BAQOUBA: 4 Iraqi civilians killed and 4 wounded when gunmen open fire on their cars as they leave a U.S. base.

Gunmen kill the mayor of the al-Yarmouk neighbourhood.

4 men killed and 3 others wounded as they travel to work on a multinational forces base.

KARBALA: Iraqi police sei e a huge cache of explosives hidden in a gravel truck heading for this holy city where tens of thousands of Shia Muslims are beginning to assemble for a religious celebration.

KIRKUK: 1 off-duty policeman killed and another seriously wounded.

LATIFIYAH: 1 civilian killed and 23 wounded when gunmen dressed as Iraqi soldiers fire on a crowd.

TAL AFAR: 5,000 Iraqi soldiers and 3,500 U.S. troops attack the town to wipe out suspected terrorists. The border with Syria is closed.

Friday

AL-MASHROU: 4 killed and 11 injured by a car bomb.

BAGHDAD: 3 policemen and 1 civilian killed by a roadside bomb. 9 policemen are wounded.

1 policeman killed and 5 wounded when gunmen fire on their patrol.

6 unidentified bodies discovered in a deserted area southeast of Baghdad.

BAQOUBA: 2 policemen shot dead by gunmen in an open market.

MAHAWIL: 5 Iraqis, including 1 policeman and 2 militants are killed when 2 small trucks explode.

SAMARRA: 2 Iraqi soldiers killed and 4 injured when a bomb explodes inside a home that is being raided.

YUSUFIYAH: 2 civilians are killed and 4 wounded by a roadside bomb.

Thursday

BAGHDAD: Civilian wounded by a car bomb.

2 bodies, blindfolded and handcuffed, found on the outskirts of town.

3 civilians injured by a suicide car bomber targeting a convoy of American security guards.

MAHMOUDIYA: Police find 15 bullet-ridden bodies.

TAL AFAR: 200 suspected militants arrested in a joint U.S.-Iraqi forces sweep.

TIKRIT: 2 Iraqi soldiers guarding oil industry assets killed and another 9 wounded by a roadside bomb.

as Iraqi soldiers fire on a crowd.

TAL AFAR: 5,000 Iraqi soldiers and 3,500 U.S. troops attack the town to wipe out suspected terrorists. The border with Syria is closed.

Friday

AL-MASHROU: 4 killed and 11 injured by a car bomb.

BAGHDAD: 3 policemen and 1 civilian killed by a roadside bomb. 9 policemen are wounded.

1 policeman killed and 5 wounded when gunmen fire on their patrol.

6 unidentified bodies discovered in a deserted area southeast of Baghdad.

BAQOUBA: 2 policemen shot dead by gunmen in an open market.

MAHAWIL: 5 Iraqis, including 1 policeman and 2 militants are killed when 2 small trucks explode.

SAMARRA: 2 Iraqi soldiers killed and 4 injured when a bomb explodes inside a home that is being raided.

YUSUFIYAH: 2 civilians are killed and 4 wounded by a roadside bomb.

Thursday

BAGHDAD: Civilian wounded by a car bomb.

2 bodies, blindfolded and handcuffed, found on the outskirts of town.

3 civilians injured by a suicide car bomber targeting a convoy of American security guards.

MAHMOUDIYA: Police find 15 bullet-ridden bodies.

TAL AFAR: 200 suspected militants arrested in a joint U.S.-Iraqi forces sweep.

TIKRIT: 2 Iraqi soldiers guarding oil industry assets killed and another 9 wounded by a roadside bomb.

Wednesday

BAGHDAD: Top Defence Ministry official shot dead by gunmen.

6 people injured by a car bomb.

American contractor held hostage for 10 months rescued by the U.S. military.

Interior Ministry official killed and 4 bodyguards wounded by militants.

BASRA: 4 U.S. private security contractors killed by a bomb.

15 people killed and 21 injured in a car bombing at a restaurant.

KALAR: 1 protester killed and 16 wounded in riots over failure to supply electricity and water.

KHALIS: 4 Iraqi soldiers and 2 civilians killed and 7 other people injured by insurgents.

TIKRIT: Iraqi lawyer killed after being abducted.

Tuesday

BAGHDAD: 2 U.S. soldiers killed and 2 wounded by a roadside bomb.

BALAD: U.S. forces kill 11 insurgents and injure 4 when responding to mortar fire.

BAQOUBA: Police arrest 2 insurgents as they attempt to kidnap an Interior Ministry engineer.

FALLUJAH: 7 Iraqis, including 4 soldiers, killed in a bomb blast.

KARBALA: 2 foreign militants killed and 3 others captured by U.S. forces.

NAJAF: U.S. army hands over its base, giving Iraqis full control of the city.

TAL AFAR: 7 civilians killed and 13 wounded during a joint U.S.-Iraqi operation against insurgents.

Monday

BAGHDAD: 2 police officers killed and 5 wounded as gunmen open fire on the Interior Ministry.

4 U.S. soldiers and 3 civilians wounded by a suicide car bomber.

BASRA: 2 British soldiers killed by a roadside bomb.

DHULUIYA: Iraqi army officer shot dead while retuning home from work.

HIT: 14 people killed, including 8 civilians, by a suicide car bomb.

KHALIS: 1 civilian killed and 4 wounded by mortar bomb falling on a residential area.

RAMADI: U.S. soldier killed when his vehicle hits a roadside bomb.

SAMARRA: Oil pipeline set on fire.

TAL AFAR: U.S. soldier killed when an explosive device strikes his vehicle.

Iraq civilian and military death toll in the last 14 days.

Nearly 1,000 Shia Iraqis died after unfounded rumours of a suicide bomber caused a stampede on the Almma Bridge, which vast crowds of pilgrims were walking across on their way to the shrine of Imam Musa Kadhim, one of Shia Islam's holiest figures.

Originally posted by sleeper
and iraq is indeed a sinking ship but i dont think leaving is the right thing to do. as bad as it is for them and for americans right now, america has taken this responsibility for itself now and it has no option but to carry it.I don't understand this sentiment. I can understand people who think that Iraq is hopeless, and therefore we should pull out immediately or we should set a timetable, etc. I also understand people who think that we should stay until XYZ happens.

However, if Iraq is a "sinking ship," then why should we stay a day longer? What difference does it make if our only purpose there is to prolong the inevitable? We definately have a responsibility to the people of Iraq, but if our presence is not doing any good whatsoever, then why do you think we should stay?

well, despite my pessimism, i dont think its a completely irredeemable situation there, positive change can be accomplished. that said, theres a high likelihood that that wont happen for a long time for a number of reasons. but what would it mean, both morally and as a matter of the US's credibility and prestige, that after it pushed like a maniac to go into a country and "bring freedom" to the iraqi people, the US, when realizing how hard it is to actually accomplish their scheme, ditch the mess theyve made and condemn an entire population to violent civil war? obviously, this wont ever happen as the US has interests in the country and region to maintain and this requires a stable nation which will require their presence for the foreseeable future. completely and abruptly getting everyone out is just not at all an option from any perspective, but a slow exchange program of frontline US troops for other lackeys, like is the case in afghanistan, is whats going to happen. at best the US can hope to train enough iraqis, who are expendable and whose death nobody at all gives a shit about, so as to have a pretext for removing troops in a way that saves face, instead of ignobly like vietnam. but even half the 140,000 troops being removed is, at best, 2-3 years away i think. at best. like im saying, they made the mess, they clean it up, however long that takes and however difficult. theres no skirting the responsibility they now have to iraqis

Originally posted by DeadSwan
i'm amazed that every single iraqi doesn't hate america


that's horrible This was muslims killing muslims for being slightly different kinds of muslims

i think she meant that this kind of violence didnt happen before america blew the lid off the place and that america is responsible for insuring security in iraq. i mean, the sunnis ruling during saddams day obviously committed violence towards kurds and shiites, but not on this scale or in this way

Originally posted by sleeper
i mean, the sunnis ruling during saddams day obviously committed violence towards kurds and shiites, but not on this scale How do you know this? The media wasn't there

so are you saying saddam would often order car bombs to drive infront of shia mosques and killed hundreds? we may not know exactly what did happened, but we can know what didnt. back then it was, at worst, a brutal totalitarian police state, not a battlefield, like iraq is now

Originally posted by sleeper
so are you saying saddam would often order car bombs to drive infront of shia mosques and killed hundreds? we may not know exactly what did happened, but we can know what didnt. back then it was, at worst, a brutal totalitarian police state, not a battlefield, like iraq is now No, I quoted you on the scale not the method.

I really wouldn't be surprised if under Saddam as many civillians were unjustly killed in the span of a year. It wasn't on the news and wasn't by explosion, so it didn't get the press

Let's say though that there are... twice as many casualties now. If this can be quelled within the next couple of years and peace established, you've just saved many more lives in the long run.

well modest estimates place the civilian death toll so far at around 30,000. you have about 60 attacks per day on coalition forces alone, with of course only a fraction of those leading to death. dozens of iraqis are dying every day in executions, bombings, mortar attacks, etc. we may never know if the raw body count per year is more, equal, or less, but the none of those answers would excuse the awful mess thats there now. i wouldnt take much satisfaction in knowing, were this the case, that "at least its a bit less than under saddam." pretty retarded logic. and, if youll excuse me saying so, i wouldnt give much credence to gloriously inaccurate US intelligence on the former situation, if thats what youre citing. acid baths, mobile labs and whatever

and that last sentence really is, logically, pretty out there. you can hypothesize all you want on this, but the fact of the matter is the US has failed and is failing to provide any respectable measure of security. what if there were 100,000 civilian deaths this year? you could just as easily say then that there wouldve hypothetically been more deaths under saddam in the long run, but does that excuse the 100,000 deaths? i dont think it does and youre insinuating a false dilemma by saying so. the options were never "do nothing" or "do exactly what were doing now", and saying that things woudlve been worse in the long run doesnt give american carte blanche to be as negligent or incompetent as it wants -- as long as the situation stays below saddam levels of brutality, of course. this just isnt a tenable line of reasoning

Originally posted by mercurial


you played the devils advocate on this one back in the day ... and you had a lot of answers to my concerns about this exact sort of thing happening.

so whats the solution now lucifer?

Yeah back in the day right before the war I had a pro-war attitude based on the cause of freeing the Iraqi people from a brutal dictatorship, and on that one belief I was willing to let the already shaky evidence of a wmd threat lay there unchallenged in my mind. I imagined the life of an average Iraqi improving. Now in hindsight, I freely admit that I was completely wrong. I didn't anticipate how completely incompetent and corrupt this administration would run the war. The administration has spent the lives of thousands of Americans and Iraqis - for what? The life of an average Iraqi has not really improved at all and in fact gotten worse. We've made Iraq an even more dangerous place than before. We've emboldened Al Qaeda and made them stronger by simply taking our eye off the ball in afghanistan in order to go into Iraq. And even worse, by evidence of the katrina response, this administration has actually let the country get weaker and less prepared since 9/11.

Unfortunately there is no simple solution, but withdrawing is definitely not out of the question.

you were pro-war back in the day? i dont remember that whatsoever. at least you recognize your error. thats more than can be said for some people

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
If this can be quelled within the next couple of years and peace established, you've just saved many more lives in the long run.


IF.

The neo-cons have fucked up everything they can possibly fuck up. You give them too much credit even by using the word "if".

Originally posted by sleeper
you were pro-war back in the day? i dont remember that whatsoever. at least you recognize your error. thats more than can be said for some people

Yes, I fell for the utter bullshit the administration and kowtowed media was spewing out once, and only once. I've learned my lesson.

i dont necessarily blame you. it was incredible how much everyone went along for the ride on the administrations terms. even the ny times was cowed and played for the fool. all the media gave way too much play to bullshit red herrings and not enough to the underlying issues. but the best thing is that now everyone, the media *******d, has learned their lesson and is taking a much more critical stance. i cant imagine another iraq-like drive to war being pulled off now for this reason alone. all in all, people are really waking up and becoming distrustful and incredulous again. thats a great thing

Originally posted by Debaser



IF.

The neo-cons have fucked up everything they can possibly fuck up. You give them too much credit even by using the word "if". Bottom line is they need MORE soldiers, not less.

they need a lot more than just soldiers

a competent civil adminstration might be a start

or how about running water. that might be good

"i'm suprised that every single Iraqi doesn't hate america"....

i think there is a few Iraqi's smart enough to see that its Insurgents blowing them up, not us. I think they're smart enough to see that the reason they're doing all this killing is because they fear these people being freed from their religious-masqueraded slavery. granted, don't take this as a "great move Bush" argument. I still think invading Iraq was a horrible idea that has blown up in Bush's face. But still, we are not the one's blowing up schoolbuses of children and beheading contractors who are risking their lives trying to give villages running water