I said government, not President Bush, Congress or any person or party individually.

For the United States of America to have its government respond in such an absolutely shameful way to this devastating disaster, I don't feel like we learned anything from Sept. 11, 2001.

We can't get sandwiches to the Super Dome. We can't get water to the NOLA Convention Center. We can't get buses to Houston. We can't get food drops from Army helicopters. We can't get the National Guard to help enforce laws and maintain civil order. We can't get people off of rooftops.

Hospitals are under seige. Buses have been commandeered by policemen helping themselves. Price gauging is at an all-time high (saw a gas station on TV in Georgia that had gas for sale for $4.83). Where the living hell are the services we demand and pay our fair share at, besides idly wasting away time and allowing thousands to die a day. This is America damnit, not some rogue nation.

Let's act like it.

The Department of Homeland Security has proven it is completely ineffective and has no idea how to handle a national tragedy and/or disaster. FEMA has been a joke of an organizing and commanding power and the National Guard was no where to be scene for days.

What's the point of this thread you ask? To show that we, as a nation, haven't learned much of anything. We've allowed our government to handle this situation no better than Bangledash would. We've allowed the government to bungle rescue missions and lose complete control of a city, making it unsafe for volunteers to help rescue missions.

I'm mad. I'm angry. I'm shocked. I'm completely embarrased that the most civilized, richest and powerful country in all of the world has let this situation happen. Shame on you, government. Shame on you.

dude i dont think that the government reads netphoria

or at least the gen board, post it in the politics forum

you make it all sound so easy!! sppunk for president!!

sppunk uses homonyms by accident so often that i would be weirded out if he used the right words.

Originally posted by sppunk

we, as a nation, haven't learned much of anything.

this is the most pathetic part

i mean, how embarrassing and how sad

Greed is good. It's the democratic way.

Everything that could possibly go wrong happened under the Bush Administration. Unprecidented terroist attacks, a war waged under false pretenses, a recession, skyrocketing oil prices, and a major natural disaster.

maybe god is telling us something.

Seriously. Congress is on fucking LABOR DAY VACATION RIGHT NOW. RIGHT FUCKING NOW. What the fuck.

I understand the frustration, but I'm wondering just what you all are expecting. An entire fucking major American city is underwater. Not to mention miles and miles of other smaller coastal towns blown off the face of the Earth. I don't see how you can sit off on the sidelines and talk about how easy the whole thing would be if the government had just done things your way. Its been half a week. Do you really think that the delays are a result of a lack of effort or planning? Like it or not, there are some problems that are going to be too big for any preparations. If this isn't one of them, I don't know what is.

It'd be great if we had things so perfectly set up that a major American city could essentially be wiped off the map and nobody would miss a beat, but its just not practical to expect that.

Originally posted by Corganist
I understand the frustration, but I'm wondering just what you all are expecting. An entire fucking major American city is underwater. Not to mention miles and miles of other smaller coastal towns blown off the face of the Earth. I don't see how you can sit off on the sidelines and talk about how easy the whole thing would be if the government had just done things your way. Its been half a week. Do you really think that the delays are a result of a lack of effort or planning? Like it or not, there are some problems that are going to be too big for any preparations. If this isn't one of them, I don't know what is.

It'd be great if we had things so perfectly set up that a major American city could essentially be wiped off the map and nobody would miss a beat, but its just not practical to expect that. Preparation wasn't the problem - responding was the problem.

It shows that America can't respond properly to national emergencies - and that's what the Homeland Security fuckers were supposed to be helping.

From all indications, things have onl gotten worse infrastructure-wise int his country.

Originally posted by sppunk
Preparation wasn't the problem - responding was the problem.

It shows that America can't respond properly to national emergencies - and that's what the Homeland Security fuckers were supposed to be helping.

From all indications, things have onl gotten worse infrastructure-wise int his country.
I'm not sure what your idea of a "proper" response would be though. Like I said, its just not practical to expect the government to sweep in and take care of things within a couple days in any situation, much less as dire a situation as this. There's a good reason they call these things disasters and not inconveniences. You can't just snap your fingers and suddenly everyone is rescued and has proper supplies and all. There are just some things that are a tall order, even for the US government.

Preparation wasn't the problem


from Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050902/ap_on_go_pr_wh/katrina_bush_budg) :
WASHINGTON - The White House scrambled Thursday to defend itself against criticism that it has consistently proposed cutting the budget for Army Corps of Engineers water and flood control projects — including several that could have mitigated the disaster in New Orleans.


Just in February, President Bush proposed cutting the Corps' budget by 7 percent. The year before, Bush proposed a 13 percent cut.

Both cuts are part of an annual ritual in Washington in which the president shortchanges lawmakers' pet projects, knowing Congress will restore the money later on.

On Thursday, however, the Bush White House made available top Corps officials to assure reporters that cuts to the agency's budget did not cause the disaster. Even though the administration has chronically cut back on the Corps of Engineers' own requests for funding — including two key New Orleans-area projects — White House officials trumpeted the administration's support for the Corps.

"Flood control has been a priority of this administration from Day One," White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters.

...


And I think this is what my boss was listening to earlier today on NPR....a conversation with the homeland security secretary that shows he doesn't know his head from his ass.. Click "listen"...

I cant check it to see if its the same one.... but he talked about how there was plenty of supplies but they just couldnt get it to the people....and the interviewer was like '....but theres thousands of people in the convention center who are starving without food or water' and the guy is like 'I haven't heard any confirmed reports of that...its very dangerous for the media to spread rumors'

and the interviewer guy is like 'we have a journalist on the other line right now, hes a seasoned war journalist whos covered natural disasters and wars across the globe and hes looking at the thousands of people who are starving right now'

'i cant argue with you about this'

LOL

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4828771

It's also kind of funny that when a crazy disaster happens in new york (ie 9/11 , ie giant blackout for half a week) they go to the streets and help each other


but when it happens in the south, everyone grabs guns

there was one photo i saw today of two guys in a boat , each with a rifle and they were paddling back to their house to grab all their valubles..

lol


instead of fitting 6 dying people in their boat and getting them to safety...they grab a rifle to get their gold watches or whatever


so much for southern hospitality

Fats Domino found OK in New Orleans

Originally posted by Fonzie
Fats Domino found OK in New Orleans
thank fucking god

Originally posted by disslunker
It's also kind of funny that when a crazy disaster happens in new york (ie 9/11 , ie giant blackout for half a week) they go to the streets and help each other

but when it happens in the south, everyone grabs guns
That might be funny if it were true. But I assure you its not a southern thing. Lawlessness and looting occurs all over. The blackout of 77 in NYC had rampant looting and crime, for instance. If NYC were underwater, I'd be willing to bet you'd see worse.

You are right sppunk. This whole thing is a big fat joke. My God. Government is terrible as shit at anything other than essential services. This should prove that beyond a doubt.

what i find disturbing regarding the response to the disaster, is what if the levee was blown open by a terrorist? it would still flood most the city and cause substatial damage.

the sniper fights amongst drug dealers down there....they aren't likely legal u.s. citizens, not most of them anyway.

what has changed? why are we in iraq? if osama had ordered the levee destroyed, well, we see how things are going in 2005. no plan was in place for that possible scenario, obviously. talking heads make a big deal over 25 billion to repair cities on our soil, yet 300 billion spent on a pointless, profiteering, nightmarishly unexplainable war, no questions asked, no hysteria.

is this real?

more people will die in this disaster than 911 according to the politicians of louisiana and mississippi.

just wait till a new strain of avian flu hits the americas. then we'll see whats what. then we'll see in the bumbling, hysterical response how poorly americans have put their uniquely paranoid mentality to use

the worst part of all of this is that there truly is no excuse. this wasnt unexpected, there was sufficient advance warning so as to allow a solid plan and preemptive action

but i have to point out that your "most civilized" comment is ridiculous. america has a long, long way to go to earn that title. its not even the richest either. per capita, i mean.

Originally posted by Corganist
I understand the frustration, but I'm wondering just what you all are expecting. An entire fucking major American city is underwater. Not to mention miles and miles of other smaller coastal towns blown off the face of the Earth. I don't see how you can sit off on the sidelines and talk about how easy the whole thing would be if the government had just done things your way. Its been half a week. Do you really think that the delays are a result of a lack of effort or planning? Like it or not, there are some problems that are going to be too big for any preparations. If this isn't one of them, I don't know what is.

It'd be great if we had things so perfectly set up that a major American city could essentially be wiped off the map and nobody would miss a beat, but its just not practical to expect that.

well, were there or were there not problems or weaknesses in the response that went beyond the acceptable? a lot of people think there were and if you accept that there were you have to logically conclude that there is blame to be layed. be careful not to excuse all reaction, however poor, with the argument that it was a 'huge disaster' or whatever. incompetence (or however youd characterize it) exists all the time on all levels and should always be addressed

The government shouldn't have to be responding to rescue people. It's fuckin darwinian. There was an evacuation plan in place; people were told to get out; Amtrak and Greyhound were running; 10% of the city population stayed, and now I read quotes in the paper like "We're so alone, why will nobody help us?" Well fuck, why didn't you think of that a week ago when you looked on CNN and saw a catagory five storm moving towards your below-sea-level house. Fack.

That said, the government should be getting in their to help the people...it's just pissing me off that it's taking all this time and money just to get to where we should already be: the rebuilding process.

Them hurricanes boy...they sneak up on ya!

Originally posted by gurr8
The government shouldn't have to be responding to rescue people. It's fuckin darwinian. There was an evacuation plan in place; people were told to get out; Amtrak and Greyhound were running; 10% of the city population stayed, and now I read quotes in the paper like "We're so alone, why will nobody help us?" Well fuck, why didn't you think of that a week ago when you looked on CNN and saw a catagory five storm moving towards your below-sea-level house. Fack.

That said, the government should be getting in their to help the people...it's just pissing me off that it's taking all this time and money just to get to where we should already be: the rebuilding process.

theres a lot of this sentiment going around. i dont know enough the specifics to really comment on it, but im curious of this idea that a significant portion of the remaining 10% stayed for reasons like laziness, stupidity, bravado or whatever. the fact is that 10% stayed (ill take your word on that), but why they stayed might not be so simple as you and other people are making it seem

Most of those that stayed were elderly with no way to leave, or poor with no car. Greyhound and Amtrak cost money - something these people don't have. They had no choice but to stay since mandatory evacuations aren't actually carried out.

seattle times

Bentley headed to the Superdome yesterday morning, like most of the city's low-income residents who had nowhere else to go. New Orleans is one of the nation's poorest cities.

it's one thing to hop on a bus (free or not) out of a city, but entirely another to exit the bus with no money in a random city. i wonder where the astro dome people will end up?

Originally posted by gurr8
There was an evacuation plan in place; people were told to get out; Amtrak and Greyhound were running;


There is a difference between saying "EVACUATE THE CITY!" followed by nothing (that's a hell of a plan), and saying "EVACUATE THE CITY" and commandering school buses and whatnot and making sure that people who had no other option found a way out.


Originally posted by gurr8
Amtrak and Greyhound were running;

I believe Greyhound stopped running on Friday, not sure about AMtrak. And even still they expect something called "money". You give them money, they give you a lift, it's a fascinating system.

Originally posted by sleeper

well, were there or were there not problems or weaknesses in the response that went beyond the acceptable? a lot of people think there were and if you accept that there were you have to logically conclude that there is blame to be layed.
I still don't know what 'acceptable' means. I understand the desire to lay blame. Its a lot easier to think that things could easily be going better if we just tried a little harder instead of being so utterly struck down by nature and chance. I'm just not sure its not a little naive to think that.

be careful not to excuse all reaction, however poor, with the argument that it was a 'huge disaster' or whatever. incompetence (or however youd characterize it) exists all the time on all levels and should always be addressed
By the same token, I think we should be careful to assume that the reason things look so bad is due to incompetence. Shit happens, and right now its happening on a much grander scale than we've ever seen. That shouldn't be an excuse for incompetence, but all the same, we shouldn't be dismissive of that either.

Originally posted by Corganist

I still don't know what 'acceptable' means. I understand the desire to lay blame. Its a lot easier to think that things could easily be going better if we just tried a little harder instead of being so utterly struck down by nature and chance. I'm just not sure its not a little naive to think that.

whats acceptable is obviously subjective, but there a few things that i think most can agree are pretty hard to excuse

and it really does seem like you think people are only getting mad simply because bad things happened without even recognizing that a major disaster precipitated it, which i dont think is an accurate characterization of the protests. people arent necessarily mad at what could have been done, like some kind of fantasy, but rather what they feel should have been done. ones government has a responsibility to take preventative and reactive measures in situations like this and there is a line to draw between the bad things that will invariably be that way and the bad things that shouldnt. im saying "bad things" just because its the most inclusive wording i can think of for all the disgusting stuff going on

By the same token, I think we should be careful to assume that the reason things look so bad is due to incompetence. Shit happens, and right now its happening on a much grander scale than we've ever seen. That shouldn't be an excuse for incompetence, but all the same, we shouldn't be dismissive of that either.

frankly, for a lot of this stuff, i think itd take some pretty wild logical acrobatics to deduce much else other than incompetence. nature didnt induce your public servants into forgetting to concoct a sound strategy.

in any case, i think we need some more distance from the event to really be able to see where nature left off and incompetence took over when assessing the the full scope of the disaster. i do think it too early to tell. i wont argue with you when it comes to how a lot of people are maybe just displacing their indignation, frustration, shattered sense of invincibility, or whatever on the nearest politician

Originally posted by sleeper

and it really does seem like you think people are only getting mad simply because bad things happened without even recognizing that a major disaster precipitated it, which i dont think is an accurate characterization of the protests. people arent necessarily mad at what could have been done, like some kind of fantasy, but rather what they feel should have been done.
I just think people are underestimating the impact of this particular storm. If this was just any old hurricane, then I could see the frustration. Even if this was on par with other very strong hurricanes of recent decades, I could see it. But what we're dealing with now is on a level that's above and beyond anything before. As such, I really don't think people have a very accurate idea of what should have been done.

frankly, for a lot of this stuff, i think itd take some pretty wild logical acrobatics to deduce much else other than incompetence. nature didnt induce your public servants into forgetting to concoct a sound strategy.
I just don't know what amount of strategizing would have helped. Everyone just keeps throwing out these "Look how bad it is!" arguments as though its self evident that it was possible to mitigate things. The response wasn't "proper." The strategy wasn't "sound." It just seems like a lot of armchair quarterbacking to me.

Originally posted by Corganist

I just think people are underestimating the impact of this particular storm. If this was just any old hurricane, then I could see the frustration. Even if this was on par with other very strong hurricanes of recent decades, I could see it. But what we're dealing with now is on a level that's above and beyond anything before. As such, I really don't think people have a very accurate idea of what should have been done.

[b]
I just don't know what amount of strategizing would have helped. Everyone just keeps throwing out these "Look how bad it is!" arguments as though its self evident that it was possible to mitigate things. The response wasn't "proper." The strategy wasn't "sound." It just seems like a lot of armchair quarterbacking to me.

i see your points and the reasoning youre making them on. i recommend we reconvene this discussion in a weeks time, so as to have the aid of greater perspective

adjourned

as a side note, do you guys study the nuremberg trials in law school? or are you otherwise familiar with them?

Originally posted by sppunk
Preparation wasn't the problem - responding was the problem.

It shows that America can't respond properly to national emergencies - and that's what the Homeland Security fuckers were supposed to be helping.

From all indications, things have onl gotten worse infrastructure-wise int his country.
I'll tell you who's to blame for this in the government.

The Clinton Administration. The Bush Administration. The Democratic Congress of the 90's. The Republican Congrees of the 90's-00's.

This isn't a new issue about the levee problem in NO. It's been known for years that anything remotely over a category 3 would flood the city. There have been bills in Congress for decades asking for funding to upgrade the levees.

While I believe that it should have been handled on a state level (as should all non-interstate issues such as this) that's just not the type of government we have.

What we have is a bloated beurocrasy full of pork barrel projects. Look at the ridiculous number of unneccesary pork projects that have been paid for the couple of decades. I would post a list but I don't have time. It's disgusting.

It's also your faults. All of you who vote for these two parties who pretend to hate each other in order to divide you and make you forget there are other viewpoints and meanwhile make back alley deals to spend the money you are taxed on on pork projects in their own districts because they caere about re-election more than anything else.

Wake the hell up, people. Government isn't going to change as long as you stay asleep and push the button for Useless Party 1 or Useless Party 2.

If at least some people become disgusted with the parties and their pork spending ways out of this, at least there may be some good.

However don't expect the media to mention this often. They're the puppets of both parties.

Have any of you seen though how a lot of the left is politicizing this by now blaming the Bush Administration for the hurricane? Not the disaster, mind you - <i>the hurricane itself</i>. Robert F Kennedy Jr is one example of how Bush's environmental record somehow caused the hurricane thanks to global warming (even though the numbers of major hurricanes (Cat 3 +) per decade were highest in the 1930s and steady ever since. I bring this up for a reason - it's once again making us "hate" and "blame" one party for all problems all the while forgetting that the other side is just as responsible for where we are.

Originally posted by Corganist

I'm not sure what your idea of a "proper" response would be though.

Well let's start with the fact that Dubya was still on his dirt farm in Crawford when the hurricane hit.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son


congratulations on breaking the 2 sentence barrier. youve come a long way

but you seem to be veering way off the line, not only with this rant against people who indulge the two party system, which is kinda of ironic given your voting record, but with your talk about blaming the federal government. theres the kind of blame like "why werent the levees better", which you could maybe blame politicians at the federal level for, but i think the vast majority of the protest is more of a "why are there armed gangs raping teenagers and hijacking supply trucks? is american actually fucking rwanda?" nature, which is blamed on lower level incompetence. america has become a corrupt bureaucracy indeed, but i dont think thats the real reason for the pathetic state of chaos there is now

but i read an interesting quote in the paper today in an article that was talking about the chaos being a product of the broader american mentality. he defined it something like "the moral mandate to achieve success exerts pressure to succeed by fair means, if possible, and by foul means, if necessary." the article mentions how there are lot of people who analyze social trends and social psychology that predicted a breakdown of this exact nature. that might sound unremarkable, but their point was that it was specifically related to the american psyche or character or values or whatever, that it went together to make a unique timebomb which this current chaos is representative of

Originally posted by sppunk
This is America damnit, not some rogue nation.
"All the difference between civilization and barbarism are three warm meals a day"

Red Dwarf

Originally posted by sleeper

but you seem to be veering way off the line, not only with this rant against people who indulge the two party system, which is kinda of ironic given your voting record please explain this statement
Originally posted by sleeper


congratulations on breaking the 2 sentence barrier. youve come a long way

but you seem to be veering way off the line, not only with this rant against people who indulge the two party system, which is kinda of ironic given your voting record, but with your talk about blaming the federal government. theres the kind of blame like "why werent the levees better", which you could maybe blame politicians at the federal level for, but i think the vast majority of the protest is more of a "why are there armed gangs raping teenagers and hijacking supply trucks? is american actually fucking rwanda?" nature, which is blamed on lower level incompetence. america has become a corrupt bureaucracy indeed, but i dont think thats the real reason for the pathetic state of chaos there is now

but i read an interesting quote in the paper today in an article that was talking about the chaos being a product of the broader american mentality. he defined it something like "the moral mandate to achieve success exerts pressure to succeed by fair means, if possible, and by foul means, if necessary." the article mentions how there are lot of people who analyze social trends and social psychology that predicted a breakdown of this exact nature. that might sound unremarkable, but their point was that it was specifically related to the american psyche or character or values or whatever, that it went together to make a unique timebomb which this current chaos is representative of My point was we should BE in this mess right now. The animals with their guns who are raping people in the streets with a Nino Brown mentality shouldn't be in that position whatsoever. This thread is about governmental failure. Well, there's your failure.

I feel like Judd Hirsch in "Independence Day" when he says to the president "you knew about this for years and still you did nothing?"

Originally posted by Corganist
I just don't know what amount of strategizing would have helped. Everyone just keeps throwing out these "Look how bad it is!" arguments as though its self evident that it was possible to mitigate things. The response wasn't "proper." The strategy wasn't "sound." It just seems like a lot of armchair quarterbacking to me.

Well the thing is this wasn't entirely unexpected - the local geography and weather seemed to imply it was only a matter of time, and haven't New Orleans residents been through several hurricane scares in the past decade or two? You'd think a contingency plan would have been prepared way in advance of this.

Anyway, any amount of strategizing would have helped if it would have helped matters - and let's face it, things could be better.

There's not really much use in arguing this..

Those people, holed up in the convention center and the Superdome, haven't eaten for 3 days.

That shouldn't happen. Period. There should have been air drops the first clear sunny day (i.e. the very next fucking day).

im talking about the bush/arnold side of your voting record, not the much inflated perot/badnarik side. you can vote for whoever you like, but if you adopt this mentality that voter participation in, or any other form of propagation of, the two party system is one of the fundamental flaws in america today, which it is, then you indict yourself too. but i agree with you that both parties are obsolete and corrupt beyond salvation, no one would debate that

and just to have this in the open, ive so far only voted NDP in my lifetime, if you know who they are. if i was american, i wouldve voted nader. even in the 2004 election, in principle, but that wouldve depended on which state i hypothetically lived in

the topic is government failure, yes, but were trying to address specifically where the essence of it lies, at what level. youre kind of coming at it from a this philosophical perspective, pointing to the root. im just saying its more the result of practical, mundane ineptitude that doesnt necessarily have any deep cause or isnt necessarily emblematic of some rotten core

Every single one of you make me sick.

Really, you do.

Blame Bush, blame Clinton, blame noone BLAME THE TWO FUCKING PARTY SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS NIMROD SYSTEM???

You all are a bunch of dissappointing individuals. There is enough blame to go around that fingers will be pointing towards every direction of the compass. The fact of the matter is that there are children without food, babies without diapers, old people ending their life on a fucking highway overpass and you guys even want to talk about who is to blame.

Fuck all of you. You are a bunch of bitching, apologist fuckfaces. Turn off the internet, go donate some money to the Red Cross and do something to help out. Seriously, back away from your fucking keyboards. It won't hurt, I swear to God.

Originally posted by wally
Every single one of you make me sick.

Really, you do.

Blame Bush, blame Clinton, blame noone BLAME THE TWO FUCKING PARTY SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS NIMROD SYSTEM???

You all are a bunch of dissappointing individuals. There is enough blame to go around that fingers will be pointing towards every direction of the compass. The fact of the matter is that there are children without food, babies without diapers, old people ending their life on a fucking highway overpass and you guys even want to talk about who is to blame.

Fuck all of you. You are a bunch of bitching, apologist fuckfaces. Turn off the internet, go donate some money to the Red Cross and do something to help out. Seriously, back away from your fucking keyboards. It won't hurt, I swear to God.

i dont know why you feel this way. honestly i dont feel compelled in the slightest to donate anything, and i donated for the tsunami. america is rich enough to be able to cope perfectly well with this situation. if you want to donate to do you share in directly helping these people, which a donation would do, or as a means of assuaging guilt, so be it, i dont care. but its not strictly needed like it was for the tsunami. but all things considered, there really isnt much the average joe can do, and, despite what you think, complaining about the weak response and trying to fish out those who are responsible for that is indeed a very productive excercise. what if nobody said a peep about all of this? it would happen again. the more outrage the better i think. thats the best way of honoring those who lost their life or home and didnt have to, and its the best way of preempt the death of others who might still be dying, and its the best way of preventing more needless destruction, death, and suffering in the future, which would certainly be the case if such failures are allowed to get a free pass

id agree with your assessment if everyone was opportunistically pointing blame, like to gain political points, at the expense of the people in need. some are, surely, but not any of us i think

Originally posted by wally
Every single one of you make me sick.

Really, you do.

Blame Bush, blame Clinton, blame noone BLAME THE TWO FUCKING PARTY SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS NIMROD SYSTEM???

You all are a bunch of dissappointing individuals. There is enough blame to go around that fingers will be pointing towards every direction of the compass. The fact of the matter is that there are children without food, babies without diapers, old people ending their life on a fucking highway overpass and you guys even want to talk about who is to blame.

Fuck all of you. You are a bunch of bitching, apologist fuckfaces. Turn off the internet, go donate some money to the Red Cross and do something to help out. Seriously, back away from your fucking keyboards. It won't hurt, I swear to God.
No man, you have no right to point fingers at us. You NEED to see who is to blame and why. Why shouldn't there be accountability?

Oh, and I donated $200 to AmeriCares, so go fcuk YOURself.

Originally posted by sleeper
im talking about the bush/arnold side of your voting record, not the much inflated perot/badnarik side. you can vote for whoever you like, but if you adopt this mentality that voter participantion in, or any other form of propogation of, the two party system is one of the fundamental flaws in america today, which it is, then you indict yourself too. but i agree with you that both parties are obsolete and corrupt beyond salvation, no one would debate that
Of the Presidential elections, I have voted since '92. That makes '92, '96, '00, '04.

I have voted for a major party candidate exactly once.

As for Arnold, there were no other viable candidates. There was no Libertarian. It was Arnold, Davis, McClintock (who I wanted), Bustamante or the joke candidates (Gary Coleman, porn stars, etc). So hold me accountable if you want on Arnold, but there wasn't a third choice since it was a recall election, and not a regular one.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
Of the Presidential elections, I have voted since '92. That makes '92, '96, '00, '04.

I have voted for a major party candidate exactly once.

As for Arnold, there were no other viable candidates. There was no Libertarian. It was Arnold, Davis, McClintock (who I wanted), Bustamante or the joke candidates (Gary Coleman, porn stars, etc). So hold me accountable if you want on Arnold, but there wasn't a third choice since it was a recall election, and not a regular one.

all i know is arnold was on the republican ticket and that hes a hideous choice. lesser of many evils? i dont know, im not californian and im not familiar enough with that election to asses the validity of the claim that there wasnt really anyone else to choose

To those who have asked what we should expect, I do, as a matter of fact, think that the poor response times have been due to a lack of planning. I'm not the only one. Lets set aside for one moment that FEMA only exists to prepare for the unexpected... There was a table top excersize for New Orleans called "hurricane pam", and several hundred people discussed what would happen. Emergency managers in NO knew that there was a good chance that the levee would either a) break or b) spill over if a major hurricane ever hit. It was well known that 20% of the population in NO would be unable to evacuate. Despite all of this, there was no good plan in place to distribute aid, supplies, and refuge of last resort - in short, we knew what would happen, but neglected to make the logistical preperations.

In only one respect is this a partisan issue. It seems to me that FEMA was a far more reliable organization before it fell under the umbrella of homeland security.

Originally posted by sleeper


all i know is arnold was on the republican ticket and that hes a hideous choice.
Explain please.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

Explain please.

aside from the fact that he's worse for the state than davis was?

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
I'll tell you who's to blame for this in the government......


Have any of you seen though how a lot of the left

He was talking about the response time. Your 3rd party preaching is off-topic, and mildly amusing.

You saying it's "a lot of the left" is actually stupider than him blaming Bush.

This is about people lying back handing power to the federal government and the government sitting back on that power doing nothing.

The people who are to blame are those who sit back and say, "Well, I don't have to do anything. It's the government's responsibility," as well as the members of our government who bullshit their way into not doing anything useful with power they've already been given.

It's a matter of wasted resources.

Use whatever resources you have. Whether you're someone with a job designed around taking care of this shit or whether you're a person who needs to do the smart thing so you don't get fucking killed.

On the side of the government or on the side of the people, it's irresponsible to expect the other side to step up to the plate if you have any stake in the outcome whatsoever. When there's a whole bloated pocket of unused power just lying there in the hands of the government and assumed by the people, you're going to get shit like this.

It's also your faults. All of you who vote for these two parties who pretend to hate each other in order to divide you and make you forget there are other viewpoints and meanwhile make back alley deals to spend the money you are taxed on on pork projects in their own districts because they caere about re-election more than anything else.

Wake the hell up, people. Government isn't going to change as long as you stay asleep and push the button for Useless Party 1 or Useless Party 2.

http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/images/kent_brockman_points.jpg
"I blame YOU, the viewer"

Actually, I see your point. It just reminded me of Brockman for some reason.

Originally posted by Future Boy


He was talking about the response time. Your 3rd party preaching is off-topic, and mildly amusing.

You saying it's "a lot of the left" is actually stupider than him blaming Bush.
Yeah we should just say "government bad" and not give reasons or opinions or solutions

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

Yeah we should just say "government bad" and not give reasons or opinions or solutions

The 3rd party solution. Hell, you're still off-topic.

Originally posted by pastry sharp


aside from the fact that he's worse for the state than davis was?
Uh..... what?

Originally posted by BeautifulLoser


That shouldn't happen. Period. There should have been air drops the first clear sunny day (i.e. the very next fucking day).

But they first had to sit around in the room and make sure everyone knew who got certain contracts to do that shit.

That's the only thing I can figure.

I mean, it's simple. Helicopters + fuel + maps + pilots + communications + food and water = assistance.

Originally posted by pastry sharp
It was well known that 20% of the population in NO would be unable to evacuate. Despite all of this, there was no good plan in place to distribute aid, supplies, and refuge of last resort - in short, we knew what would happen, but neglected to make the logistical preperations.



This is sad and true.

I love listening to Condi Rice deny that this had anything at all to do w/ race and class.

Here's what you do (I wish I had been in the room when they were awarding contracts last week!!):

1. Commandeer and condemn all the Greyhound buses yu need to evacuate all the people in New Orleans. Commandeer and condemn all the boats you need (military, private, any boats) to evacuate all the people in New Orleans. The government cannot take private property for public use w/o just compensation.
2. Richly and justly compensate Greyhound, the people who had tickets on Greyhound whose plans were disrupted, and the privat owners of the boats.
3. Get drivers for the buses and drivers for the boats. Preferably military with big guns.
4. Go to New Orleans.
5. Get the people.
6. Take them to other cities and states.


DONE.

Originally posted by mpp

I mean, it's simple. Helicopters + fuel + maps + pilots + communications + food and water = assistance.
Well, you've obviously got it all figured out. We should have used the magical hangar full of magical helicopters that appear in large numbers whenever a natural disaster is near. You know, the one that's next to the magical barracks with enough magical pilots to fly the magical helicopters.

I'm sorry, but I really hope you people aren't really buying into this notion that things are this simple. "Easier said than done" has never been a more appropriate description.

Originally posted by Corganist

I'm sorry, but I really hope you people aren't really buying into this notion that things are this simple.


Hey man, I'm just using my favorite conservative type of argument. Black and white. Easy, easy, easy.


Surely, though, you've heard of military bases. There are plenty in the South. Surely, you've heard of television channels. There are traffic helicopters all over the place. Condemn them. Take them by force. Get those people out.

I don't know if this has been reported yet...

Police kill looters as bodies collected
05 September 2005

NEW ORLEANS: New Orleans police killed four looters who had opened fire on them as rescue teams scoured homes and toxic waters flooding streets to find survivors and recover thousands of bloated corpses.


A fifth looter was left in critical condition but no more details were available about the incident on Saturday in a city where authorities are slowly regaining control after a wave of looting, murders and rapes in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

"Five men who were looting exchanged gunfire with police. The officers engaged the looters when they were fired upon," said New Orleans superintendent of police, Steven Nichols.

US Army Corps of Engineers contractors working on a levee breach were fired on by gunmen but no one was hurt, said the Corps' Mike Rogers. It was not clear if the two incidents were connected.



http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3400579a10,00.html

Originally posted by mpp

Surely, though, you've heard of military bases. There are plenty in the South. Surely, you've heard of television channels. There are traffic helicopters all over the place. Condemn them. Take them by force. Get those people out.
How many people were in the Superdome? Let's say 50,000 just for argument's sakes. Now let's say that your average helicopter can carry 10 passengers (probably a high estimate). That's 5000 helicopter trips. So unless you have at least a few hundred helicopters, which is a tall order, its going to be a long process no matter what. And I doubt that borrowing Chopper 4 is really going to help much in meeting that kind of demand.

may I point out that they were using C-130 type things to evacuate people?

Originally posted by Corganist

And I doubt that borrowing Chopper 4 is really going to help much in meeting that kind of demand.

Ahh, the net yielded a catch.

If my plan were put into action, more people would be alive today and less people would have had to go thru the bad times after Katrina in New Orleans.

Who cares if they deployed 50 choppers and only saved 100 people? That's 100 people saved. Damn the torpedoes. It's lives we're talking about, not logistics and dollars and cents.

Originally posted by mpp

If my plan were put into action, more people would be alive today and less people would have had to go thru the bad times after Katrina in New Orleans.

Who cares if they deployed 50 choppers and only saved 100 people? That's 100 people saved. Damn the torpedoes. It's lives we're talking about, not logistics and dollars and cents.
So you don't think that maybe more lives could be saved by saving the effort and funds used in finding, borrowing, and paying for people's helicopters for something a little more useful to more people? Commandeering the traffic copters is a show for the TV cameras, not an efficient life-saving strategy. Resources aren't unlimited, especially in a disaster situation. Wasting them on solutions that provide minimal returns is not a luxury we have, no matter how nice it may be to think that if it saves even one life its worth it.

"I have made the homeland security a top budget priority and I ask Congress to respond in a positive way to this request," Bush said in Pittsburgh. "We must do everything in our power -- everything -- to protect our fellow Americans."

The homeland security budget *******s $6 billion to combat bioterrorism, funds to help state and local police, fire and rescue personnel, and money to tighten the borders and beef up airport security.

February 6, 2002 Posted: 4:22 AM EST (0922 GMT)


wow! when does homeland security go into effect? when it does, wow, it will mean we'll do everything in our power -- everything* -- to protect our fellow Americans.

*blackout periods will ******* major holidays, presidential vacations, and natural disasters.

Originally posted by homechicago


wow! when does homeland security go into effect? when it does, wow, it will mean we'll do everything in our power -- everything* -- to protect our fellow Americans.

*blackout periods will ******* major holidays, presidential vacations, and natural disasters.
Pssst....Natural disasters =/=terrorism.

Originally posted by Corganist

Pssst....Natural disasters =/=terrorism.
GOD IS A TERRORIST

Originally posted by Corganist

Pssst....Natural disasters =/=terrorism.

Psst, thanks for the clarification

saving/protecting peoples lives =/= in every circumstance

Originally posted by homechicago



saving/protecting peoples lives =/= in every circumstance


don't even try

i don't think he understands this concept

Originally posted by Corganist

Resources aren't unlimited, especially in a disaster situation. Wasting them on solutions that provide minimal returns is not a luxury we have, no matter how nice it may be to think that if it saves even one life its worth it.

Resources are much more "unlimited" than you seem to understand. Peoples' lives are worth more than dollars.

Originally posted by mpp

Resources are much more "unlimited" than you seem to understand. Peoples' lives are worth more than dollars.
Its not just about money. I'm not saying "let's save a few bucks by letting a couple people die." I'm saying that there are a limited number of people who can only do a limited number of things. As such, you have to maximize what can be done with them. Sending someone to save ten people now when they could be saving one hundred people later is not a good thing. It sucks that there has to be that kind of prioritization, but its an unavoidable reality. Thinking otherwise is just having a rosy colored view on the real situation.

but doesn't it appear by most news accounts, that the prioritizing and planning itself could have happened 24 or 48 hours earlier than it did?

do you wonder about terrorist attack preparedness any differently now than you did before?

i personally found this disaster unnerving on that matter.

Originally posted by Corganist

Its not just about money. I'm not saying "let's save a few bucks by letting a couple people die." I'm saying that there are a limited number of people who can only do a limited number of things. As such, you have to maximize what can be done with them. Sending someone to save ten people now when they could be saving one hundred people later is not a good thing. It sucks that there has to be that kind of prioritization, but its an unavoidable reality. Thinking otherwise is just having a rosy colored view on the real situation.

don't be such an apologist... there were warnings, there was evidence to support the idea that this would happen, and the government was ill prepared. you siezed on the comment about helicopters, but ignored the comment about busses. there are no shortage of cdl certified drivers in this country. truck driving is the # 1 job choice of men in america. furthermore, there was no reason for there to be a food or water shortage in NO. the busses that were dispatched managed to make it into the city. why they didn't come filled with food and water is the result of poor planning on the part of FEMA. the only reason those people have jobs at all is to avoid this.

Originally posted by pastry sharp


don't be such an apologist... there were warnings, there was evidence to support the idea that this would happen, and the government was ill prepared. you siezed on the comment about helicopters, but ignored the comment about busses. there are no shortage of cdl certified drivers in this country. truck driving is the # 1 job choice of men in america. furthermore, there was no reason for there to be a food or water shortage in NO. the busses that were dispatched managed to make it into the city. why they didn't come filled with food and water is the result of poor planning on the part of FEMA. the only reason those people have jobs at all is to avoid this. Uh, every available bus was loaded full of people and driven out of the city before the storm hit... afterwards, the roads were destroyed and nobody could drive back

I should clarify that I don't exactly blame Bush for natural disasters out of his control. However, I do question his judgement on staying on vacation until two days after the hurricane made landfall. A responsible president would have been in his office at least two days before the hurricane hit to get ready for the biggest natural disaster since, geez probably Andrew?

I mean really. What was he thinking?

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
Uh, every available bus was loaded full of people and driven out of the city before the storm hit...

without being filled with food or water prior to being driven into the city, despite the fact that everyone knew that 20% of the population of the city would be totally stranded.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

afterwards, the roads were destroyed and nobody could drive back

oh, so busses never came back in the city after they left the first time? i see. quick question, do you ever know what you are talking about?

Originally posted by pastry sharp


oh, so busses never came back in the city after they left the first time? i see. quick question, do you ever know what you are talking about? Afterwards = after the disaster. You just look for any excuse to attack, attack, partisan, attack.

There were buses. People complaining that there weren't buses up until the last minute forget that a bus on teh highway during a hurricane is a bad place to be

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
afterwards, the roads were destroyed and nobody could drive back

I must stipulate, I'm unaware as to how bias the source may or may not be, but I'm sure you'll tell me.
http://www.heraldsun.com/tools/printfriendly.cfm?StoryID=643298

DURHAM -- A trio of Duke University sophomores say they drove to New Orleans late last week, posed as journalists to slip inside the hurricane-soaked city twice, and evacuated seven people who weren't receiving help from authorities.
.......

"We found it absolutely incredible that the authorities had no way to get there for four or five days, that they didn't go in and help these people, and we made it in a two-wheel-drive Hyundai," said Hans Buder, who made the trip with his roommate Byrd and another student, David Hankla....

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
Afterwards = after the disaster. You just look for any excuse to attack, attack, partisan, attack.

There were buses. People complaining that there weren't buses up until the last minute forget that a bus on teh highway during a hurricane is a bad place to be

I don't think this is a partisan issue. I've never faulted Bush or the Republican congress for the logistic issues that were not addressed prior to this nightmare.

Busses came into the city, busses left the city. There were times when that was not possible, but don't tell me it didn't happen, and don't tell me that nobody knew that the people of NO were going to need food and water. stop being such an apologist.

Originally posted by pastry sharp


I don't think this is a partisan issue. I've never faulted Bush or the Republican congress for the logistic issues that were not addressed prior to this nightmare.

Busses came into the city, busses left the city. There were times when that was not possible, but don't tell me it didn't happen, and don't tell me that nobody knew that the people of NO were going to need food and water. stop being such an apologist. I'm not apologizing. The mayor of Biloxi for example declared marshall law IMMEDIATELY. New Orleans? From what I hear the mayor was hunkered down in a hotel with no communications. Smart.

The blame needs to be more local and less Kanye West type "blame Bush."

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
I'm not apologizing. The mayor of Biloxi for example declared marshall law IMMEDIATELY. New Orleans? From what I hear the mayor was hunkered down in a hotel with no communications. Smart.

The blame needs to be more local and less Kanye West type "blame Bush." again, west only said that bush didnt care about black people.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
I'm not apologizing. The mayor of Biloxi for example declared marshall law IMMEDIATELY. New Orleans? From what I hear the mayor was hunkered down in a hotel with no communications. Smart.

The blame needs to be more local and less Kanye West type "blame Bush."

why are you directing this at me? prove that i've made this into a partisan debate. you cannot, so shut up, please and thank you. you on the other hand came out with both guns blazing "this is all clinton's fault", which is the same typical, poorly contrived crap that you normally spout. i care about issues, you care about sides - which is why i am usually in the right and you are usually in the wrong.

w has a brother in a state with lots of hurricane practice. after charlie, calls were made in under 24 hours. that was a 3 or 4. w went there to hug the homeless.

why would he think nola, waveland, etc. would be better off after a stage 5?

useless.

Originally posted by pastry sharp

you on the other hand came out with both guns blazing "this is all clinton's fault", which is the same typical, poorly contrived crap that you normally spout. :confused:
Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

I'll tell you who's to blame for this in the government.

The Clinton Administration. The Bush Administration. The Democratic Congress of the 90's. The Republican Congrees of the 90's-00's.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
:confused:


okay, partially clinton's fault... partially bush's fault... either way, still a pollitical issue as opposed to a FEMA issue or Homeland Security issue. it isn't partisan, but you've attempted to make it so.

Originally posted by pastry sharp


don't be such an apologist... there were warnings, there was evidence to support the idea that this would happen, and the government was ill prepared. you siezed on the comment about helicopters, but ignored the comment about busses. there are no shortage of cdl certified drivers in this country. truck driving is the # 1 job choice of men in america.
And they just all happened to be milling about close to New Orleans? Of course not. They were/are spread out all over the place. It would still take time to find the drivers and find the buses and get them on their way. I really don't know what world you live in when you act as though this sort of thing can be done within a day or even two.

Apologist...meh. Realist is more like it. Its not my fault that I recognize that the great and powerful <strike>Oz</strike> Federal Government really can't perform magic.

furthermore, there was no reason for there to be a food or water shortage in NO. the busses that were dispatched managed to make it into the city. why they didn't come filled with food and water is the result of poor planning on the part of FEMA. the only reason those people have jobs at all is to avoid this.
So you would have held the buses even longer to wait until food and water was gathered to put inside before they were sent down? I imagine had that gone down you'd be complaining about the delay.

Originally posted by Corganist

And they just all happened to be milling about close to New Orleans? Of course not. They were/are spread out all over the place. It would still take time to find the drivers and find the buses and get them on their way. I really don't know what world you live in when you act as though this sort of thing can be done within a day or even two.

I live in the world of logistic planning, where I can get as many trucks as my heart desires within 24 hours to NO from Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, and also Louisiana. This can, and is happening now that FEMA actually knows what it is doing.

Originally posted by pastry sharp


I live in the world of logistic planning, where I can get as many trucks as my heart desires within 24 hours to NO from Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, and also Louisiana. This can, and is happening now that FEMA actually knows what it is doing. you should have sent those truck then man

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
you should have sent those truck then man


This can, and is happening now that FEMA actually knows what it is doing.

Do you think that FEMA owns it's own truck fleet? Why are you ignoring the fact that that agency has 1 freaking job!?!? Moral obligations aside, they take money and are supposed to return a certain service level for that money.

There is a point when this will become a partisan issue, but we aren't there yet.

Originally posted by Trotskilicious
I should clarify that I don't exactly blame Bush for natural disasters out of his control.

What? Don't you know that the Bush administration controls the weather?

i think what we're all trying to say to the government is...

get the fuck off the commode

http://www.bobharris.com/images/stories/Katrina/bushincompetencemap.gif

http://www.bobharris.com/content/view/637/1/

whoa...this can't be true?

Originally posted by Debaser
http://www.bobharris.com/images/stories/Katrina/bushincompetencemap.gif

http://www.bobharris.com/content/view/637/1/

whoa...this can't be true? It authorized FEMA to enter those counties. Should he have told FEMA to go to New Orleans before the hurricane hit?

heh, some bystander.

"go fuck yourself, mr. cheney. go fuck yourself"


msnbc live interview vid (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Cheney_090805.wmv)

the completely incompatent mike brown has finally been removed from his duties with regards to hurricane katrina. with any luck, he'll completely resign with in the next month or two.

w will give him a medal of some sort, and likely a promotion.

Originally posted by homechicago
w will give him a medal of some sort, and likely a promotion.

Really. Does pastry sharp actually pay attention to what's going on or is he trapped in a liberal fantasy world?

Originally posted by Trotskilicious


Really. Does pastry sharp actually pay attention to what's going on or is he trapped in a liberal fantasy world?

yes, it's fantastical to form an opinion after you have the facts.

Originally posted by Trotskilicious


Really. Does pastry sharp actually pay attention to what's going on or is he trapped in a liberal fantasy world? jeez, stop being such a GOP schill for once

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
jeez, stop being such a GOP schill for once

he's just contrary, period.

Originally posted by Trotskilicious


Really. Does pastry sharp actually pay attention to what's going on or is he trapped in a liberal fantasy world?

a funny thing just happened when i logged on. i read an msn news blurb that said mike brown stepped down. i guess that makes me right, and you, well... let's just leave at i was right.;)

Originally posted by BeautifulLoser
Seriously. Congress is on fucking LABOR DAY VACATION RIGHT NOW. RIGHT FUCKING NOW. What the fuck.

yeah well, i'm high

Originally posted by pastry sharp


a funny thing just happened when i logged on. i read an msn news blurb that said mike brown stepped down. i guess that makes me right, and you, well... let's just leave at i was right.;)

Congratulations.

Originally posted by Trotskilicious


Congratulations. why don't you suck dick cheneys balls you Republican asshole

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
why don't you suck dick cheneys balls you Republican asshole

because he is neither a republican or a republican apologist. he's just a guy who seems to think i'm an asshole, which doesn't really bother me.

Originally posted by pastry sharp


because he is neither a republican or a republican apologist. he's just a guy who seems to think i'm an asshole, which doesn't really bother me. yes I know.

You're awesome at missing points.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
yes I know.

You're awesome at missing points.

you are awesome at pointing out my flaws. if i were rich, i'd totally put you on my pay role as a personal auditor... you could help me do self inventories, correct my spelling, and put me in my place, full time. of course, i'd make you refer to me as sir.

Originally posted by pastry sharp


you are awesome at pointing out my flaws. if i were rich, i'd totally put you on my pay role as a personal auditor... you could help me do self inventories, correct my spelling, and put me in my place, full time. of course, i'd make you refer to me as sir. with that kind of attitude you'll never be rich

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
with that kind of attitude you'll never be rich

good point. the rich do not have any flaws... better yet, i'd hire you to point out all the flaws in my children.

Originally posted by pastry sharp


good point. the rich do not have any flaws... better yet, i'd hire you to point out all the flaws in my children.
what do you do for a living pastry sharp

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

what do you do for a living pastry sharp

i'm never going to be rich, but i like to think i'm doing allright. currently, i supervise the logistics side of a oem electronic repair operation. i've been a semester away from completing my teaching degree for about 5 years now, but i will be attending classes at UNT this spring, so I hope to have that wrapped up by this time next year. with one kid and one on the way next month, there is no way i could work full time, attend school full time, and be the kind of father i want to be...

in anticipation of your next question, yes teaching would mean a pay cut, and for that reason it's tough to say whether or not i will actually teach until later in my career...