View Full Version : a psychological evaluation of Billy


Catherine Wheel
08-10-2005, 11:57 PM
narcissism
neurosis
split personality
delusions of significance

avsfan7733
08-11-2005, 12:20 AM
i dont understand your purpose of being on this board if you feel so highly of billy.

tomthum81
08-11-2005, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel

delusions of significance
he's not delusional in that respect... otherwise none of us would be here. i think he's just more cocky about it than most.

COG
08-11-2005, 12:26 AM
So, when did you do this evaluation?

COG
08-11-2005, 12:27 AM
And what about confidentiality?

mourninglight
08-11-2005, 12:49 AM
if you're a psychologist then i'm the friggin QUEEN OF ENGLAND!!!

woowee!

Luke de Spa
08-11-2005, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by tomthum81

he's not delusional in that respect... otherwise none of us would be here. i think he's just more cocky about it than most.
I don't think appealing to a bunch of people on a messageboard is what anyone has in mind when they talk about "significance".

(Same goes for selling a lot of records to teenagers.)

dirty_bartenda
08-11-2005, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by tomthum81
i think he's just more cocky about it than most.

yeah, but it's just so much more entertaining than humbly promoting some fair-trade shit with your albums. gotta appreciate the entertainment value.

tomthum81
08-11-2005, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Lucky Day Spa

I don't think appealing to a bunch of people on a messageboard is what anyone has in mind when they talk about "significance".

(Same goes for selling a lot of records to teenagers.)
its all subjective my friend ;)
our parents are "significant" to us...

ChristHimself!
08-11-2005, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by avsfan7733
i dont understand your purpose of being on this board if you feel so highly of billy.

Definitions of Internet troll on the Web:

An Internet troll is either a person who sends messages on the Internet hoping to entice other users in to angry or fruitless responses, or a message sent by such a person. The term derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" and ultimately from trolling for fish; it first appeared on Usenet.

Firefly
08-11-2005, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel
narcissism
neurosis
split personality
delusions of significance

:rofl: :D

celluloid_love
08-11-2005, 09:46 AM
delusional
openly retarded
picked on in school due to bearing physical resemblance to a troll

mirrar
08-11-2005, 09:53 AM
hi i actually take psychology, and i'd say really the only thing billy comes close to being is histrionic, and that was only at the height of his rediculous outfits.

Catherine Wheel
08-11-2005, 10:04 AM
You mean that other being slightly histrionic Billy is normal? Is that what you are saying?

Catherine Wheel
08-11-2005, 10:30 AM
This describes Billy perfectly

http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/spousal_domestic_abuse/112267/latest/

"Narcissists are obsessed by delusions of fantastic grandeur and superiority. As a result they are very competitive. They are strongly compelled - where others are merely motivated. They are driven, relentless, tireless, and ruthless. They often make it to the top. But even when they do not - they strive and fight and learn and climb and create and think and devise and design and conspire. Faced with a challenge - they are likely to do better than non-narcissists.

Yet, we often find that narcissists abandon their efforts in mid-stream, give up, vanish, lose interest, devalue former pursuits, fail, or slump. Why is that?

Narcissists are prone to self-defeating and self-destructive behaviors.

The Self-Punishing, Guilt-Purging Behaviors

These are intended to inflict punishment on the narcissist and thus instantly relieve him of his overwhelming anxiety.

This is very reminiscent of a compulsive-ritualistic behavior. The narcissist feels guilty. It could be an "ancient" guilt, a "sexual" guilt (Freud), or a "social" guilt. In early life, the narcissist internalized and introjected the voices of meaningful and authoritative others - parents, role models, peers - that consistently and convincingly judged him to be no good, blameworthy, deserving of punishment or retaliation, or corrupt.

The narcissist's life is thus transformed into an on-going trial. The constancy of this trial, the never adjourning tribunal is the punishment. It is a Kafkaesque "trial": meaningless, undecipherable, never-ending, leading to no verdict, subject to mysterious and fluid laws and presided over by capricious judges."

RopeyLopey
08-11-2005, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel
This describes Billy perfectly

http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/spousal_domestic_abuse/112267/latest/

"Narcissists are obsessed by delusions of fantastic grandeur and superiority. As a result they are very competitive. They are strongly compelled - where others are merely motivated. They are driven, relentless, tireless, and ruthless. They often make it to the top. But even when they do not - they strive and fight and learn and climb and create and think and devise and design and conspire. Faced with a challenge - they are likely to do better than non-narcissists.

Yet, we often find that narcissists abandon their efforts in mid-stream, give up, vanish, lose interest, devalue former pursuits, fail, or slump. Why is that?

Narcissists are prone to self-defeating and self-destructive behaviors.

The Self-Punishing, Guilt-Purging Behaviors

These are intended to inflict punishment on the narcissist and thus instantly relieve him of his overwhelming anxiety.

This is very reminiscent of a compulsive-ritualistic behavior. The narcissist feels guilty. It could be an "ancient" guilt, a "sexual" guilt (Freud), or a "social" guilt. In early life, the narcissist internalized and introjected the voices of meaningful and authoritative others - parents, role models, peers - that consistently and convincingly judged him to be no good, blameworthy, deserving of punishment or retaliation, or corrupt.

The narcissist's life is thus transformed into an on-going trial. The constancy of this trial, the never adjourning tribunal is the punishment. It is a Kafkaesque "trial": meaningless, undecipherable, never-ending, leading to no verdict, subject to mysterious and fluid laws and presided over by capricious judges." http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/james/james149.jpg

Marquee Moon
08-11-2005, 11:13 AM
Catherine Wheel, the narcissism description strikes me as being amazingly accurate. i don't see where you're coming up with the split personality diagnosis, though.
:confused:

Catherine Wheel
08-11-2005, 11:38 AM
well consider that Zero and Glass were different from the person he was when he was during Adore and Zwan.
or consider that he was different before Zero and Glass.

Sonic Johnny
08-11-2005, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by avsfan7733
i dont understand your purpose of being on this board if you feel so highly of billy.

oh shut the fuck up you worthless fucking n00b. go and get yourself a clue you stupid excuse for a person..... go worship opeth or something.

ChristHimself!
08-11-2005, 11:45 AM
will people <i>please</i> stop replying to this fucking troll's threads.

Catherine Wheel
08-11-2005, 11:46 AM
I gues Im saying that I dont think that Zero and Glass was just a stage thing. thats too simple. I think he really assumed another identity during those times.

Marquee Moon
08-11-2005, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel
well consider that Zero and Glass were different from the person he was when he was during Adore and Zwan.
or consider that he was different before Zero and Glass.

I wouldn't read multiple personality into that.

But the narcissitic explanation you posted pretty much nailed him.

He talks about seeing counselors and therapists, but it seems like he picks the New Age types who will address him as some kind of Chosen One that's not subject to what applies to a normal person. Like if he was a regular Joe he'd be narcissistic, but since he is a Warrior of Light there are different rules that apply. No wonder Sonya Choquette and Ken Wilber make the big bucks :erm

Kayfabe
08-11-2005, 11:51 AM
this thread reminds me of Basic Instinct. but not the fucking parts

Marquee Moon
08-11-2005, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Kayfabe
this thread reminds me of Basic Instinct. but not the fucking parts

by all means contribute the fucking parts to the thread so your experience here will be complete.

Cool As Ice Cream
08-11-2005, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel
narcissism
neurosis
split personality
delusions of significance yeah, he's really losing it.

on the day of the release of the smashing pumpkins rarities box billy will commit suicide to sell more copies. when it becomes clear his suicide doesn't make more people buy the box he'll come out of his basement again with some fantastic story about how he really believed he was death and how we should all be sorry. and how he can't help it because he had such a tough time in all his bands with immoral and unloving people (except jimmy!) and stuff. typical. i'd even say predictable (because i just did).

Catherine Wheel
08-11-2005, 12:04 PM
ok if Zero and Glass werent split personality how would you explain them?

Marquee Moon
08-11-2005, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel
ok if Zero and Glass werent split personality how would you explain them?

Well first off they were characters in a concept album and Billy was trying to play them off during Machina. Okay fair enough if you want to say the story was somewhat autobiographical...I still don't think they really had two distinctly different personalities. Glass was just Zero with a fantastical spiritual agenda and not an entirely different Self. Glass was Zero using God as an excuse to vindicate his narcissistic worldview and behavior towards others.

Catherine Wheel
08-11-2005, 12:37 PM
Zero was around 5 years before Glass. he was Zero. and then during Adore he was just Billy. and then the concept album about glass.

you cant have a start and stop identity without it being split personality.


The Smashing Pumpkins is Billy's Solipsism in full effect. its a fantasy world where he gets to be whoever he wants to be.
he can be Zero. or Glass. or just Billy Corgan.

Cool As Ice Cream
08-11-2005, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel
its a fantasy world where he gets to be whoever he wants to be. I think it's playing along with the rock star persona game.

That has nothing to do with split personality. It's just a game.

Blowmybuzz
08-11-2005, 12:47 PM
How about the fact that he's a showman.

I know some would argue there are better showmen around, but billy was not just about music.

He is visual, don't you just think that after writing rock tunes from the soul, the man just wanted a different kind of inspiration hence the glass/machine era.

It was just a different way of coming up with an idea for an album. Lets face it, i doubt very much that anybodys idea of a famous person (actor or musician) actually lives up to who they are in real life.... outside of the media circus?

Catherine Wheel
08-11-2005, 12:51 PM
I dont buy that "its just a game" theory. you underestimate how mentally disturbed Billy is. he has a taped conversation between him and a therapist on the Machina record.

I guess the hardcore fan would like to think that Billy is just doing a rock star parody. but im an average fan. and it seems like hes manifesting his illness through the band

Marquee Moon
08-11-2005, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel
The Smashing Pumpkins is Billy's Solipsism in full effect. its a fantasy world where he gets to be whoever he wants to be.
he can be Zero. or Glass. or just Billy Corgan.

I still don't see how you find so much variance between the personalities of Zero and Glass. Take away the crusades of "salvation" associated with Glass and there's not much difference at all.

Catherine Wheel
08-11-2005, 12:55 PM
even if there isnt variance between Zero and Glass the point is he stopped being Zero for several years. and was just "Billy" and then later he started doing the Glass thing.

there was no continuity. thats an indication of something

Blowmybuzz
08-11-2005, 12:56 PM
But are you baseing this on a therepy session you have had with him or the albums, recordings and interviews?

The media can be very bias in it's reporting, and unless you know the man and have talked to him outside the context of the band and the media, i really don't think you have a basis for your argument.

Cool As Ice Cream
08-11-2005, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel
I dont buy that "its just a game" theory. you underestimate how mentally disturbed Billy is. he has a taped conversation between him and a therapist on the Machina record. If you're not a troll, you're definately mentally disturbed yourself.

Now excuse yourself for wasting my time.

Marquee Moon
08-11-2005, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel
even if there isnt variance between Zero and Glass the point is he stopped being Zero for several years. and was just "Billy" and then later he started doing the Glass thing.

there was no continuity. thats an indication of something

But if applying them to Billy's life rather than just the Machina album's story, wouldn't you say the Adore era was more transitional between Zero and Glass rather than a time when he was "just Billy"?

To me a lot of what Glass is about is creating a different frame of reference in order to at once disown and legitimize some nasty aspects of his personality and lifestyle. As an example, when he gets involved with sleazy people, it's not because he finds them fascinating and is attracted to them but because he wants to save them, right? And if he says or does things that disappoint the fans, they are just suposed to "trust him" and excuse it as a stumbling block towards the lofty goal of saving rock and roll with whatever is his next big project, right? All kinds of personal behaviors that would otherwise be viewed as dishonest and abusive (to self and others) are filtered through a belief that different rules apply when you're a Chosen One on a holy mission.

But seriously, I don't think any of this qualifies as split personality. My thoughts are more in light of the description you gave for Narcissism--which I do think rings true--and what I'm describing is a theory on how the Glass persona might be being used to cope with that.

Luke de Spa
08-11-2005, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by tomthum81

its all subjective my friend ;)
our parents are "significant" to us...
"Delusions of significance" implies the kind of significance that involves a large number of people in some kind of grand way. That's why it's delusional.

I don't see how this is open to interpretation.

mourninglight
08-11-2005, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Marquee Moon


But if applying them to Billy's life rather than just the Machina album's story, wouldn't you say the Adore era was more transitional between Zero and Glass rather than a time when he was "just Billy"?

To me a lot of what Glass is about is creating a different frame of reference in order to at once disown and legitimize some nasty aspects of his personality and lifestyle. As an example, when he gets involved with sleazy people, it's not because he finds them fascinating and is attracted to them but because he wants to save them, right? And if he says or does things that disappoint the fans, they are just suposed to "trust him" and excuse it as a stumbling block towards the lofty goal of saving rock and roll with whatever is his next big project, right? All kinds of personal behaviors that would otherwise be viewed as dishonest and abusive (to self and others) are filtered through a belief that different rules apply when you're a Chosen One on a holy mission.

But seriously, I don't think any of this qualifies as split personality. My thoughts are more in light of the description you gave for Narcissism--which I do think rings true--and what I'm describing is a theory on how the Glass persona might be being used to cope with that. awe, you are so p0lite

br191804
08-11-2005, 07:49 PM
narcissism
neurosis
split personality



All a reason why he is arguably the most talented song writer of your fucking time. Fuck Face.

pumpkingrrrl
08-11-2005, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by br191804
narcissism
neurosis
split personality



All a reason why he is arguably the most talented song writer of your fucking time. Fuck Face.

yeah

tomthum81
08-12-2005, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Lucky Day Spa

"Delusions of significance" implies the kind of significance that involves a large number of people in some kind of grand way.
and when in the last 12 years has he not acheived this??enlighten me... the man has obviously touched a massive amount of people, why can't you just admit that?

Luke de Spa
08-12-2005, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by tomthum81

and when in the last 12 years has he not acheived this??enlighten me... the man has obviously touched a massive amount of people, why can't you just admit that?
Maybe a larger font size will help you to understand.

SELLING A LOT OF RECORDS TO TEENAGERS IS NOT THE KIND OF SIGNIFICANCE I'M TALKING ABOUT HERE

Sometimes it's a good idea to adjust one's frame of reference.

So. Making a connection with angsty self-absorbed 15-year-olds is not Capital-S Significant in the way that the development of agriculture, or the invention of the printing press, or Copernicus's refutation of geocentrism, or the eradication of smallpox were SIGNIFICANT to humanity. Billy Corgan sang about how he was a rat in a cage, millions of parent-hating kids believed him, and he made a lot of money and got on the cover of a lot of magazines as a result. Yes, he made some wonderful records, but if — for the sake of argument — we buy into the caricature of a man convinced he is here to change the world (or if he hasn't achieved it already, then he's certainly well on the way), we have to side against Billy Corgan. Why? Because he simply hasn't given any indication that he has that kind of greatness in him.

Am I making sense?

Are you significantly enlightened? http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon10.gif

celluloid_love
08-12-2005, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by Catherine Wheel
its a fantasy world where he gets to be whoever he wants to be.
he can be Zero. or Glass. or just Billy Corgan.

can anyone say Rolf Harris?

Luke de Spa
08-12-2005, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by celluloid_love

can anyone say Rolf Harris?
<marquee scrollamount=20 behavior=alternate>
http://www.jigsawlounge.co.uk/kungfu/pictures/saddam-rolf.jpg
ROLF HARRIS MORE LIKE ROFL HARRIS AM I RIGHT GUYS? </marquee>

MsMayonaise
08-12-2005, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by Marquee Moon


I wouldn't read multiple personality into that.

But the narcissitic explanation you posted pretty much nailed him.

He talks about seeing counselors and therapists, but it seems like he picks the New Age types who will address him as some kind of Chosen One that's not subject to what applies to a normal person. Like if he was a regular Joe he'd be narcissistic, but since he is a Warrior of Light there are different rules that apply. No wonder Sonya Choquette and Ken Wilber make the big bucks :erm

;) You took the words right from my keyboard...

ContraryMary
08-13-2005, 01:50 AM
hey I like Ken Wilber! He's got as many problems as anyone else, which is sometimes hard for his fans to accept, but he's pretty good at giving people starting places for their own journeys. I think of him more like a professor who knows a lot about spirituality in different contexts and cultures and lights a fire under people to want to study more for themselves. How is that bad?...

Hmmm this is an interesting thread all though I have to high five Bram for telling that guy if he's a troll he's a sick one for what he said at the beginning of the page. I agree.

And here's what I think...MCIS was his atempt to write a big rock double album. Everything about that album was full of grandeur. And I think he enjoyed doing it in his own strange perfectionist way. And of course there is going to be image and stuff with an album that big. Showmanship indeed.

Adore may seem more "Billy Corgan" rather than "rock star" - but I think he was just being honest that a lot of shit happened to him and he couldn't help but be a little humble about it...

Machina is the mystery to me. I love the songs but don't get the "Glass" stuff. To me it takes away from the songs and makes me feel like he's trying to cover something up because he wasn't taking a very direct approach.

I get the difference between MCIS and Adore though..."I am a going to have some fun being a rock star, pull out all the stops" and "none of that means shit, my life still fell to pieces" - not insane I don't think.

Catherine Wheel
08-13-2005, 02:18 AM
what I said is only sick to those who endlessly worship Corgan.
you have to take the good with the bad. hes not all roses and flowers. hes got issues and its ok to speculate what those issues are. stop ass kissing the Pumpkins

Rider
08-13-2005, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by tomthum81

and when in the last 12 years has he not acheived this??enlighten me... the man has obviously touched a massive amount of people, why can't you just admit that?

the past 12 months.

Catherine Wheel
08-13-2005, 02:25 AM
Artist types often live inside their head. so its interesting to figure out what inspired their art.

Marquee Moon
08-13-2005, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by ContraryMary
hey I like Ken Wilber! He's got as many problems as anyone else, which is sometimes hard for his fans to accept, but he's pretty good at giving people starting places for their own journeys. I think of him more like a professor who knows a lot about spirituality in different contexts and cultures and lights a fire under people to want to study more for themselves. How is that bad?...

My general take on what I've perceived Ken as bringing into Billy's perspective - and I base my personal reactions A LOT upon that cringeworthy interview of Billy by Ken that was posted at Integral Naked's website a while back - is pretty much along the lines of the simple impressions Tim Boucher gives in this article:

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/13/billy-corgan-teams-up-with-ken-wilber/

I don't agree with everything said in the article linked above, but do think the author brought up some worthy observations. For instance, I definitely think there's a problem with operating from logic like this:

He (Billy) confesses to driving a ’70s “gas guzzler,” saying hybrid cars are just quick fixes to make people feel better about themselves, but they don’t effect fundamental change. To him, fighting for a better environment means raising the consciousness level of the public until everyone realizes that change needs to happen.

“Did you know the American army is using 12 million barrels of gasoline in Iraq every day?” he asks. “If I can raise the consciousness level of 100 people who are going to make 100,000 better choices, my energy is better spent than debating whether or not to drive a hybrid car.”

Luke de Spa
08-13-2005, 08:22 PM
He (Billy) confesses to driving a ’70s “gas guzzler,” saying hybrid cars are just quick fixes to make people feel better about themselves, but they don’t effect fundamental change. To him, fighting for a better environment means raising the consciousness level of the public until everyone realizes that change needs to happen.

“Did you know the American army is using 12 million barrels of gasoline in Iraq every day?” he asks. “If I can raise the consciousness level of 100 people who are going to make 100,000 better choices, my energy is better spent than debating whether or not to drive a hybrid car.”
Jesus Christ, that's appalling. His mind must be totally fucking warped if he can accept that line of thinking and not see if for the weak rationalisation it is. Amazing.

Marquee Moon
08-14-2005, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Lucky Day Spa
So. Making a connection with angsty self-absorbed 15-year-olds is not Capital-S Significant in the way that the development of agriculture, or the invention of the printing press, or Copernicus's refutation of geocentrism, or the eradication of smallpox were SIGNIFICANT to humanity. Billy Corgan sang about how he was a rat in a cage, millions of parent-hating kids believed him, and he made a lot of money and got on the cover of a lot of magazines as a result. Yes, he made some wonderful records, but if — for the sake of argument — we buy into the caricature of a man convinced he is here to change the world (or if he hasn't achieved it already, then he's certainly well on the way), we have to side against Billy Corgan. Why? Because he simply hasn't given any indication that he has that kind of greatness in him.


When you first posted this, it made me stop to think quite a bit about your question of if "there is any indication he has that kind of greatness in him." I very much follow the logic that led to your personal answer, but still feel inclined to be an optimist on this one ... I think it is POSSIBLE he could reach that kind of greatness. Difficult, but possible. Billy is brilliant, but it seems like his need to be perceived as "great" in the eyes of others gets in the way of doing truly great things.

Part of why I come to my optimism on this is I believe Billy realizes the problems that he has ... and I think he sees far more productively in his personal reflection vs. when he is being advised by New Age "therapists" with a personal agenda of desire to flatter, impress, and align themselves with a rock star. I also believe he really wants to change, and I say this because the evidence is definitely there in his blog project. Check out what he wrote here:

http://www.billycorgan.com/news050415.html

He writes, "my agenda is to promote positive change, loving compassion, a tough love, celebrate the spirit, and uncover who i really am." Interesting that as the blog project progressed, he seemed to focus more and more on the early period of his life that brought experiences which laid a foundation for those traits that haunt him to this day. Seems like he got on a roll with this towards the end, and it became more about genuine and productive self-exploration vs. choosing subjects to delight and impress the fans.

Remember back in 2000 when he wrote up the Machina story explanation? I believe he gave it a happy ending that he is yet searching to experience: "he begins to forgive and accept the things that have happened to him, and understand that his desire to find perfection above his own humanity led him to things that he did not really want or need...he begins to love and empathize with others without fear of consequence, and so in his aloneness realizes that he was never really alone at all... GOD has always been with him, and always will be...and so in this moment he fulfills his destiny, both for himself and for GOD..."