View Full Version : Tipping should not be practiced.


sppunk
08-10-2005, 06:02 PM
Calling jczeroman to thread, stat.

The New York Times had a dead-on op-ed piece on the tipping practice in the United States, and since Netphoria loves the tipping topic, let's get it on!

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August 10, 2005
Tipped Off
By STEVEN A. SHAW

WHEN Thomas Keller, one of America's foremost chefs, announced that on Sept. 1 he would abolish the practice of tipping at Per Se, his luxury restaurant in New York City, and replace it with a European-style service charge, I knew three groups would be opposed: customers, servers and restaurateurs. These three constituencies are all committed tipping - as they quickly made clear on Web sites. To oppose tipping, it seems, is to be anticapitalist, and maybe even a little French.

But Mr. Keller is right to move away from tipping - and it's worth exploring why just about everyone else in the restaurant world is wrong to stick with the practice.

Customers believe in tipping because they think it makes economic sense. "Waiters know that they won't get paid if they don't do a good job," is how most advocates of the system (meaning most everybody in America) would put it. To be sure, this is a seductive, apparently rational statement about economic theory, but it appears to have little applicability to the real world of restaurants.

Michael Lynn, an associate professor of consumer behavior and marketing at Cornell's School of Hotel Administration, has conducted dozens of studies of tipping and has concluded that consumers' assessments of the quality of service correlate weakly to the amount they tip.

Rather, customers are likely to tip more in response to servers touching them lightly and crouching next to the table to make conversation than to how often their water glass is refilled - in other words, customers tip more when they like the server, not when the service is good. (Mr. Lynn's studies also indicate that male customers increase their tips for female servers while female customers increase their tips for male servers.)

What's more, consumers seem to forget that the tip increases as the bill increases. Thus, the tipping system is an open invitation to what restaurant professionals call "upselling": every bottle of imported water, every espresso and every cocktail is extra money in the server's pocket. Aggressive upselling and hustling for tips are often rewarded while low-key, quality service often goes unrecognized.

In addition, the practice of tip pooling, which is the norm in fine-dining restaurants and is becoming more common in every kind of restaurant above the level of a greasy spoon, has gutted whatever effect voting with your tip might have had on an individual waiter. In a perverse outcome, you are punishing the good waiters in the restaurant by not tipping the bad one.

Indeed, there appears to be little connection between tipping and good service. The best service in the Western world is at the Michelin three-star restaurants of Europe, where a service charge replaces tipping. As a customer, it's certainly pleasant to dine in France, where the menu prices are "service compris," representing actual totals, including the price of food, taxes and service.

Tipping is hardly the essence of capitalism. Actually, it would seem to have little to do with capitalism at all: it is - supply and demand be damned - a gift, a gratuity decided on after the fact.

Waiters and waitresses also believe it is their right to be tipped. A tip, while a gift, is a strange sort of gift in that it is a big part of the server's salary. In most states, servers don't even get paid minimum wage by their employers - there is an exemption (called a "credit") for tipped employees that allows restaurants to pay them just a token couple of dollars an hour (as low as $1.59 per hour in Kansas and $3.85 per hour in New York City). They are instead largely paid by tips, to the tune of $26 billion per year.

When you talk to servers, you'll find that most believe they make more money under the tipping system than they would as salaried employees. And that's probably true, strictly speaking. The tipping system makes waiters into something akin to independent contractors. And in most any business the hourly wage of a contractor is higher than that of an employee. Yet in most businesses, people choose to be employees.

That is because those who wish to guarantee their long-term financial security sacrifice a little bit of quick cash for longer-term benefits like health insurance, retirement plans and vacation pay. But, of course, most servers see themselves as transient employees - waiting tables before moving on to bigger and better things.

Still, this may not always be the case. The large number of waiters I see in their 40's, 50's and 60's put the theory in doubt. While kitchen workers trade low wages and no tips for a future in the business - the opportunity to rise in rank, to one day run a kitchen - what calculation do waiters and waitresses make? Under the tipping system, it seems, they're trading a little extra now for the promise of nothing later. With his announcement, Mr. Keller has sent a signal to his culinary colleagues that there just might be a better way.

For their part, restaurateurs believe it is their right to have consumers pay servers, so they don't have to pay their employees a living wage. They prefer the current system because it allows them to have a team of pseudo-contractors rather than real employees.

But that too is shortsighted. Over time, as in any service-oriented business, waiters loyal to the restaurant will perform better and make customers happier than waiters loyal only to themselves.

In this, the world's most generous nation of tippers, most restaurants don't even offer service as good as at the average McDonald's. While it lacks style, service at McDonald's is far more reliable than the service at the average upper-middle-market restaurant. This is not because the employees of McDonald's are brilliant at their jobs - it's because they are well-trained and subject to rigorous supervision.

And come to think of it, at McDonald's there is no tipping.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:15 PM
That's all fine and good, but if you're going to a restaurant where service charges are not *******d, then you should tip. If you don't, you're screwing waiters and not doing anything to improve the situation.

peabody
08-10-2005, 06:18 PM
What about tipping in other areas outside of restaurants? Cab drivers, bell hops, maids, room service, and things like that?

Mooney
08-10-2005, 06:23 PM
i don't believe in tipping, but i always tip a lot. apparently for the wrong reasons, though. :o

sppunk
08-10-2005, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Eulogy
That's all fine and good, but if you're going to a restaurant where service charges are not *******d, then you should tip. If you don't, you're screwing waiters and not doing anything to improve the situation. I'm not advocating not tipping, I'm pushing the belief that tipping is a stigma that's wrong and not needed.

It's only used in the U.S. to up the prices and profits of restaurateurs.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
I'm not advocating not tipping, I'm pushing the belief that tipping is a stigma that's wrong and not needed.

It's only used in the U.S. to up the prices and profits of restaurateurs.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. I think if we could all agree to tip intelligently, then it'd work. but I don't think that can happen. so you're right.

sppunk
08-10-2005, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by peabody
What about tipping in other areas outside of restaurants? Cab drivers, bell hops, maids, room service, and things like that? If someone performs a job above expectations or is asked to perform a service out of the ordinary, I'll tip them. If they are just doing a job (and getting paid their salary for said job), it's not my place to compensate them.

I'm not their employer, simply a patron.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by peabody
What about tipping in other areas outside of restaurants? Cab drivers, bell hops, maids, room service, and things like that?

I don't think most of these people rely on tips nearly as much as waiters and waitresses. I doubt I would tip them much if I ever was in a position to do so.

jczeroman
08-10-2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by sppunk

For their part, restaurateurs believe it is their right to have consumers pay servers, so they don't have to pay their employees a living wage.

This is the issue that needs to be addressed most.

sppunk
08-10-2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Eulogy


I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. I think if we could all agree to tip intelligently, then it'd work. but I don't think that can happen. so you're right. To further elaborate on that point, the shared tipping (which is practiced in nearly every eatery I frequent) is a complete sham and should be made illegal.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:27 PM
...but I would if I had money. so yeah.

sppunk
08-10-2005, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by jczeroman


This is the issue that needs to be addressed most. Yes. Everywhere else, a waiter's job is treated like any laborer, they are paid accordingly. Only in the U.S. do restaurateurs try to pass on the salaries of their workers to their very own customers.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
To further elaborate on that point, the shared tipping (which is practiced in nearly every eatery I frequent) is a complete sham and should be made illegal.

or we should just start putting tip jars at the exits.

dean_r_koontz
08-10-2005, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
If someone performs a job above expectations or is asked to perform a service out of the ordinary, I'll tip them. If they are just doing a job (and getting paid their salary for said job), it's not my place to compensate them.

I'm not their employer, simply a patron.

what are you talking about, how can you know it's not your place? you talk like a religios zealot, only that you use typical american cliches about freedom of choice, indivuality and personal responsibility instead. reading the crap you and nimrods son write reminds me of how herd mentality works.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
Yes. Everywhere else, a waiter's job is treated like any laborer, they are paid accordingly. Only in the U.S. do restaurateurs try to pass on the salaries of their workers to their very own customers.

...but their salaries would come from the customers anyway, because the price of the food would go up if the workers' wages had to go up.

jczeroman
08-10-2005, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
To further elaborate on that point, the shared tipping (which is practiced in nearly every eatery I frequent) is a complete sham and should be made illegal.

Agreed. It is by far the worst thing that could be done. It is doubly parasitic in that it lets the owner not pay his workers AND makes the good workers pay for the bad ones.

sppunk
08-10-2005, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Eulogy


or we should just start putting tip jars at the exits. That's just retarded. What'd that be for?

You'd be giving extra money on top of that $9 burger that cost maybe $1 to prepare simply for the luxury of eating at someone's restaurant? Complete bullshit.

sppunk
08-10-2005, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by dean_r_koontz


what are you talking about, how can you know it's not your place? you talk like a religios zealot, only that you use typical american cliches about freedom of choice, indivuality and personal responsibility instead. reading the crap you and nimrods son write reminds me of how herd mentality works. Considering you think Mike and I share a similar view on anything speaks loudly of your incompetence to read properly.

jczeroman
08-10-2005, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Eulogy


...but their salaries would come from the customers anyway, because the price of the food would go up if the workers' wages had to go up.

Which would be fair because the price of the meal is written in stone and protected by contract law.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
That's just retarded. What'd that be for?

You'd be giving extra money on top of that $9 burger that cost maybe $1 to prepare simply for the luxury of eating at someone's restaurant? Complete bullshit.

i was joking. but what i meant was, that way you would know that your tip was going to the entire waitstaff, and not just your waiter.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by jczeroman


Which would be fair because the price of the meal is written in stone and protected by contract law.

technically, sure. but in reality it doesn't make much of a difference.

but you're a man of principle. so yeah.

peabody
08-10-2005, 06:36 PM
Yeah, we get tips at Starbucks, and we get a living wage pretty nicely well above minimum wage.

We have tip jars. But our tips don't add up to much, really. Maybe $15-20 a week.

dean_r_koontz
08-10-2005, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
Considering you think Mike and I share a similar view on anything speaks loudly of your incompetence to read properly.

you share the same philosophical ground.

what do you think about taxes compared to nimrod?

Voice Implodes
08-10-2005, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Eulogy
That's all fine and good, but if you're going to a restaurant where service charges are not *******d, then you should tip. If you don't, you're screwing waiters and not doing anything to improve the situation.

don't forget delivery guys.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Voice Implodes


don't forget delivery guys.

I'm pretty sure they make at least minimum wage. and they don't really do much anyway.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:40 PM
i could be totally wrong about delivery guys making minimum wage though

peabody
08-10-2005, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by peabody
Yeah, we get tips at Starbucks, and we get a living wage pretty nicely well above minimum wage.

We have tip jars. But our tips don't add up to much, really. Maybe $15-20 a week.

But. That's just my store, because it is in a neighborhood where no one tips and where everyone is rude, regardless.

Some stores, like in northern neighborhoods, have really great tip rates. I made $45 in tips working 7.5 hours at one of those stores once. So, people there make an extra $150+ a week on top of their hourly pay, which is at least $7.50.

Eulogy
08-10-2005, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by peabody


But. That's just my store, because it is in a neighborhood where no one tips and where everyone is rude, regardless.

Some stores, like in northern neighborhoods, have really great tip rates. I made $45 in tips working 7.5 hours at one of those stores once. So, people there make an extra $150+ a week on top of their hourly pay, which is at least $7.50.

so would you say it's a good job? There's one being built near my house, and I'm going to need a job in two months.

The Stars Fell
08-10-2005, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by sppunk
I'm not advocating not tipping, I'm pushing the belief that tipping is a stigma that's wrong and not needed.

It's only used in the U.S. to up the prices and profits of restaurateurs.
ok. then you work as a server and not get tips, i believe in tips and i like to get them.

sppunk
08-10-2005, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by The Stars Fell

ok. then you work as a server and not get tips, i believe in tips and i like to get them. You must have missed the point I made about, "I tip."

Nate the Grate
08-10-2005, 10:02 PM
I carry people's golf bags from their cars to their golf cart. sometimes they are pretty heavy, since I typically carry two at once. I try to be helpful and friendly. I usually get tipped, and usually feel like I've earned it. I don't HAVE to be as helpful as I am (I offer to do anything they need), but I am, and not only because I want to get tipped. I genuinely want these people to have a good time. when people tip me, I see it more as them saying thanks than just doing it because they have to. most people seem happy to tip. then again, I mostly deal with an older age bracket, so maybe tipping is something they are more accustomed to.

Nimrod's Son
08-11-2005, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by Eulogy
i could be totally wrong about delivery guys making minimum wage though Delivery guys here make about $9 hr plus tips

barden
08-11-2005, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by sppunk
Yes. Everywhere else, a waiter's job is treated like any laborer, they are paid accordingly. Only in the U.S. do restaurateurs try to pass on the salaries of their workers to their very own customers.

Well, it works the same here, so your ‘everywhere else’ comment is a little blanketed.

I used to work for a coffee shop and I only earned tips. No basic or hourly wage at all.

The coffee shop paid me with the opportunity to earn tips. Haha.

Oblivious
08-11-2005, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by Eulogy
i could be totally wrong about delivery guys making minimum wage though

it varies from restaurant to restaurant. where i work our delivery drivers don't make an hourly wage. they get a delivery fee based on geographics and they get to keep their tips. with gas prices being what they are they really don't make very much. really it's only a job for students or total slackers.

Voice Implodes
08-11-2005, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Eulogy


I'm pretty sure they make at least minimum wage. and they don't really do much anyway.

i was one for awhile, and most delivery guys DO NOT get an hourly wage.

if they place has a delivery charge, that is how the driver gets paid. so the money is in tips. places that have free delivery however, usually are paying their drivers hourly, so it is not as crucial.

jczeroman
08-11-2005, 05:27 PM
The other point that a lot of people are missing in this debate is that just because a person isn't making much money does not give them a right to demand other people's money. "Need" is not a license to make a claim on others.

dean_r_koontz
08-11-2005, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by jczeroman
The other point that a lot of people are missing in this debate is that just because a person isn't making much money does not give them a right to demand other people's money. "Need" is not a license to make a claim on others.

you're missing an important point, when people don't make much money, they have the right to demand other peoples money.

Mayfuck
08-11-2005, 05:35 PM
I wonder, though, if jczeroman is aware what a big douchebag he is. Like if he's cognizant at all of the fact.

dean_r_koontz
08-11-2005, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by dean_r_koontz


you're missing an important point, when people don't make much money, they have the right to demand other peoples money.

the two "arguments" are similar :

when people make little money, they have the right to demand other peoples money

and

when people make little money, they do not have the right to demand other peoples money

you can basicly use the word "rights" and defend anything, and you'll still be completely unable to prove that these rights actually exists more than on a piece of paper, in best cases.

Mayfuck
08-11-2005, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by dean_r_koontz


the two "arguments" are similar :

when people make little money, they have the right to demand other peoples money

and

when people make little money, they do not have the right to demand other peoples money

you can basicly use the word "rights" and defend anything, and you'll still be completely unable to prove that these rights actually exists more than on a piece of paper, in best cases.

This is very peculiar. It is true that invoking 'rights' in any type of argument is dishonest and at best intellectually lazy. "Rights" is just glorifying the phrase "I want" but with insuperable connotation of divinity. It is peculiar because it is the brunt of all jczeroman's arguments.

dean_r_koontz
08-11-2005, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Mayfuck


This is very peculiar. It is true that invoking 'rights' in any type of argument is dishonest and at best intellectually lazy. "Rights" is just glorifying the phrase "I want" but with insuperable connotation of divinity. It is peculiar because it is the brunt of all jczeroman's arguments.

that's what happens when you begin to read Ayn Rand.

ZackZ
08-11-2005, 06:39 PM
I'm a pizza delivery guy. I make 5.35/hr plus $1 per delivery. I also expect to get tipped. $1 is pretty weak, $2 bucks is acceptable, $3+ is gravy.

My motto is, if you can't afford to tip, don't fucking order our pizza. I drive all over town, wearing out my car, using gas (which the $1 charge barely covers anymore), greatly increasing my accident rate by driving around so much.

I can't complain too much, though. I get good tips. I'd say about half my income is from tips alone, so if people didn't tip, I couldn't pay rent, eat, etc.

Lie
08-11-2005, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by jczeroman
The other point that a lot of people are missing in this debate is that just because a person isn't making much money does not give them a right to demand other people's money.

No, it doesn't, but it doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of people who would be willing to give it to them. And it doesn't change the fact that in general, employers, staff, and customers appear to be satisfied with the system as it is. Which is, obviously, why it is the way it is.

I think the European system makes more sense and the service industry in the U.S. is generally a load of crap on all sides, but I don't think waiters tend to threaten customers with loaded weapons when they don't tip. If they did, it would be more of an issue.

There I go stating something obvious again and not really saying anything. Cheers, Julio.